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Who wins?

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Luke

Reasons?

It's Luke
Only reason you need

You continue to be the single greatest debater KMC has ever seen.

Evan betar dan GiDaon?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
You continue to be the single greatest debater KMC has ever seen.
Prove me wrong then

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Evan betar dan GiDaon?
Much greater. Gideon used too many words just to say the exact same thing.

So you can't prove me?

Gideon is God though.

I honestly don't know where to place Soa.

He was powerful enough to not be kill-able by the Rakatan race and lose to a random strike team.

You better be trolling. ^

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I honestly don't know where to place Soa.
http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/soa-respect-thread-1712494/.

Soa mind traps Skywalker into submission, tbh.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
You better be trolling. ^
Clearly every single one of the TOR protags showed up to combat Soa.

That wasn't what I was referring to though.

He's referring to a lack of Soa wank anytime I open my mouth about him.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/soa-respect-thread-1712494/.

Soa mind traps Skywalker into submission, tbh.

mmm

So a guy who's hyped up by in-universe characters and a third person fallible sourcebook to be a super-powerful Force god, but then loses to a generic strike team, has his uber TK barriers broken by a statue falling on him, etc. Sounds part for the course for The Cancerous Republic.

Why doesn't he just mind-trap the protags? It seems like he can't, not in combat at least.

Luke slices him apart.

He does. The mindtraps are broken when destroyed from the outside by another protag.

Unless Skywalker has aid, he's getting called in mindtraps and will be instantly dominated.

And nah, his TK barriers were broken by a massive Rakatan drill device pummeling down into him.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
He does. The mindtraps are broken when destroyed from the outside by another protag.


Are these generated under his own power? Can they be dodged?



Doesn't really change my point, kek. Luke's barriers can block AT-AT fire 30 years before his prime, the TK of someone who can arc turbolasers, etc.

Yes. And no, there's no known defense without having two people.

The Rakatan drills are probably far superior than that, kek.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Yes. And no, there's no known defense without having two people.


And so why doesn't he just trap all of them after they initially break out?

And if I can show that Luke > Soa, he can probably break out. You yourself claimed that sufficient willpower and raw Force mastery can overcome Nihilus's drain.



It's a physical object falling from some height. There's no reason to think that it's anything more in this case, which means that Soa's barrier is shit, which means he probably isn't as strong in the Force as you're suggesting.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
And so why doesn't he just trap all of them after they initially break out?
It appears he can only maintain one or two at a time.


"The Makatak and Tulpaa Elders continue to tinker with crumbling Rakatan inventions, puzzling out a way to unlock old mind traps-prison boxes that contain an infinite expanse of white nothingness."

If Skywalker is locked in there, there's no way of getting out. He can't overpower nothingness, nor can he reach Soa from his position in nothingess.


What? It was designed by the Rakatan empire. Darth Malgus said the Rakatan's technology made the Sith Empire's look like a joke. And these were structures specifically used to capture and contain Soa. They were made for that purpose by the joint armies of the entire galaxy working together to contain him. Also, wasn't Skywalker's barrier overshadowed by the Universal Energy Cage in the Dark Empire comics anyway? And it's clearly immensely powerful if it made attacks from any of the eight protagonists null. I don't see Skywalker doing that.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
"The Makatak and Tulpaa Elders continue to tinker with crumbling Rakatan inventions, puzzling out a way to unlock old mind traps-prison boxes that contain an infinite expanse of white nothingness."

If Skywalker is locked in there, there's no way of getting out. He can't overpower nothingness, nor can he reach Soa from his position in nothingess.


Palpatine can retain his identity in chaos from his sheer force of will, and the ancient sith working together could save him from it. Willpower + Force mastery can do anything if you've sufficient amounts of it.

Otherwise some other rataka could've just imprisoned him with it.



...dude, maybe it had special powers if activated, but in the particular scene it's not functioning as anything more than an object of some mass gaining kinetic energy from some work done by a 1 g or so gravitational field. It's not anything special in this context, kek.

Luke's TK >>>>>>>>



So? DE Luke < prime Luke, and it's not exactly clear if Ratakan tech > imperial era SW tech.



Luke > the protags though.


I'll give you that the mind trap question is sort of difficult to resolve because we don't have an upper limit on it - I'm just using your own Nihilus drain standards - but in terms of his Force abilities, Soa has done nothing but get owned by falling machinery and breaking some statues.

Didn't Palpatine escape going to chaos, not chaos itself? Once he was there, that was the end of it, I thought.

There's no rational explanation on how Skywalker, or anyone, can overpower a void of absolute nothingness.

According to the material, there is only two ways to be freed from a mind trap:

perform a ritual that requires two people inside the mind trap.
the mind trap to be opened or destroyed from the outside world.

It's also stated that one can't make contact with the outside world, so Skywalker has no possible way of attacking Soa or destroying the device.

They probably didn't trap Soa in there due to the risk of someone breaking him out by destroying the device. Instead they put him in stasis.

If Skywalker somehow breaks free, Soa can continue trapping him until his willpower and strength is depleted and then proceed to kill him.

It's the ultimate OP weapon for single-combat. He can't lose here.

I'll be back online tomorrow to respond to your response, assuming you do.

I assume from your silence on the matter that you agree that Luke > Soa without the mindtraps, at least, and possibly by a significant margin.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Didn't Palpatine escape going to chaos, not chaos itself? Once he was there, that was the end of it, I thought.


Nah, every deceased Jedi that had ever lived had to combine powers to keep him there. Regardless, both support my point.



Mind-walk? Fold space himself out? Overcome the mind-walk's restriction on communicating with the outside world?

Rather than succumbing to a no-limits-fallacy with respect to these traps that you've criticized others on employing with Nihilus's drain, we can defer to the clear precedent of everything being resistible by sufficient strength in the Force. Given that Luke >>> Soa, it's unlikely that this would be effective on him.



Why do you assume that the ritual needs two people? Kaan and co. had to combine powers to use the thought bomb, but it's implied that Revan could have done it by himself. Likewise, Vitiate initially needed 8000 sith to pull off Nathema, but he does it to Ziost more or less by himself. Palpatine can pull off a significantly more destructive version of Force storms on his own power, while Kaan and co. have to combine forces just to burn down a forest.

This was one of Plagueis's discoveries; that a significant strength of will and mastery of the Force can replicate the effects of any ritual.



That makes absolutely no sense. Why would putting him in stasis be any less prone to outside intervention?



Or Skywalker quickly crushes his skull. And you're still assuming that these traps can arbitrarily be used on anyone without any chance of resistance. If that were true people would've just trapped Soa with it.



Nah. By that logic, Luke can just insta-kill Soa with emerald lightning, because the one time he uses it, it was an insta-kill.

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Interestingly enough Soa's mind traps aren't infinite expanses of white nothingness. They're sealed, small, and contain items.

This isn't even a game mechanic. There's a real mind trap quest where the white nothingness mind trap actually exists, the difference between the two is pretty certainly purposeful. mmm

Originally posted by Selenial
Interestingly enough Soa's mind traps aren't infinite expanses of white nothingness. They're sealed, small, and contain items.

This isn't even a game mechanic. There's a real mind trap quest where the white nothingness mind trap actually exists, the difference between the two is pretty certainly purposeful. mmm

Indeed, noice observation.

Still, two Soas should kill Luke definitely. Soa is too powerful for likes of Plagueis/Caedus level, but Luke is another story totally.

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Luke easily.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Unless Skywalker has aid, he's getting called in mindtraps and will be instantly dominated.