Kas'im vs Plo Koon

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ILS
1. Sabers
2. Force
3. All Out

Who takes each round and why?

Aurbere
Plo Koon, tbh. Will elaborate later. If I remember to, at least.

ILS
Can't wait. We need to consider Kas'im's technical edge, though.

ILS
Achoo

Trocity
Kas'im in all.

Being the greatest duelist during a time of shitty duelists > being a shitty duelist during a time of great duelists.

Being able to block a force wave that casually dropped a huge temple > freezing people in creeks.

The Ellimist
He was on a nexus

MythLord
The same nexus that amped the person who threw out the wave which leveled the temple. Do not cherry pick, Elli.
But seriously, Kas has this.

The Ellimist
The point is that the nexus's effect on Bane is already accounted for in the fact that the wave leveled a temple. It's not a valid feat for Kas'im to point out that he blocked said attack, because you need to subtract the nexus from his Force defenses.

MythLord
Sure he can't deflect a temple-collapsing attack off-nexus, but he can deflect Bane's attack. And honestly, Bane even at this time is better than Plo.

The Ellimist
Is he?

In either case, you don't have to be as strong as someone to block their attack (Kas'im explicitly isn't stronger than Bane).

MythLord
Yup.

I am aware, but seeing as how Kas could do such a thing, I feel it's enough to suggest Plo's offensive Force edge isn't enough to snatch him a win.

The Ellimist
Yeah but who said it would?

MythLord
Nobody, I'm just sayin' Plo's Force edge is moot, and he's probably inferior as a duelist.

|King Joker|
Kas'im wins round 1, and the second round is almost irrelevant because I don't think Koon can really do anything to Kas'im in regards to the Force, and Kas'im is lacking in offensive Force showings to suggest he can really hit Koon with anything. So, Kas'im also takes all out.

FreshestSlice
Why exactly does Kas'im take round 1 tho?

Aurbere
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Why exactly does Kas'im take round 1 tho?

Because DBT characters Kas'im is a god.

FreshestSlice
I mean he was losing to Bane even when he stunted his training, so obviously Kas'im is the greatest lightsaber duelist of all time.

Nephthys
He only stunted his training in that he didn't teach him how to respond to dual saber style. When he took advantage of that he was winning.

Aurbere
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I mean he was losing to Bane even when he stunted his training, so obviously Kas'im is the greatest lightsaber duelist of all time.

Kas'im mastered lightsaber combat to a greater extent than even Yoda and Sidious. They never perfected every move and sequence of every style in spite of their far longer lifespans.

The Ellimist
Lol

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Aurbere
Kas'im mastered lightsaber combat to a greater extent than even Yoda and Sidious. They never perfected every move and sequence of every style in spite of their far longer lifespans.
So he has the most common accolade ever. That might actually put him over Koon, tbh. It's not like everyone ever has "perfected" their style. hmm

Nephthys
He mastered every style and form and then spent decades perfecting every move and sequence of every style and form. And then invented thousands of techniques for every form and style.

But yeah, common.

Aurbere
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
So he has the most common accolade ever. That might actually put him over Koon, tbh. It's not like everyone ever has "perfected" their style. hmm

I feel like you've been reading my mind.

Anywho. Yup. Kas'im's accolade is super common and not impressive in the slightest.

Aurbere
Originally posted by Nephthys
He mastered every style and form and then spent decades perfecting every move and sequence of every style and form. And then invented thousands of techniques for every form and style.

But yeah, common.

Every Jedi ever has "invented" techniques for their style.

Nephthys
They haven't invented thousands of them for all styles. Everyone makes a few minor variations for their unique fighting style based off of their unique self, not everyone takes existing forms and styles and creates (hundreds of?) thousands of techniques for everyone to use and teaches them to thousands of students. That displays a deep understanding of the forms themselves, not merely your own capabilities.

FreshestSlice
Agreed. Kas'im has invented literally thousands of unparalleled techniques, that we have not heard about or seen. The fact that they are unquantified means nothing when they are obviously some of the greatest techniques known in the galaxy. We know they exist, regardless of knowing what they actually do, therefore Kas'im has one of the deepest understanding of lightsabers in the mythos.

























Literally thousands. Perfect.

Nephthys
I'm glad you agree. Admit to your failings and I will forgive you.

FreshestSlice
Why would I seek forgiveness from you when I can just ask it of Kas'im. He's a part of the Bitchood of Darkness, the greatest era of the Sith. He'd take me back with open arms.

Nephthys
I think you should sit down for this:




Kas'im isn't real, Freshest. He's imaginary. Please, no tears.

The Ellimist
Where does it say he invented thousands of moves?

Nephthys
In PoD, I'd think.

Edit: "The sequences were designed by the Blademaster himself so that each maneuver flowed smoothly into the next, maximizing attack efficiency while minimizing defensive exposure."

In other parts of the novel it's stated Bane had learned thousands of these. Or hundreds of thousands, I don't recall.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Nephthys
I think you should sit down for this:




Kas'im isn't real, Freshest. He's imaginary. Please, no tears.
He's about as real in our universe as any of the evidence you use to support him is in Star Wars.

Nephthys
That doesn't really make any sense since all the evidence I use is stuff that is in fact real and in the books. I haven't lied about it.

Aurbere
Kas'im's greatest accolade is literally basic lightsaber combat development that every Jedi does.

The Ellimist
Lol, in other words he created enough sequences for a trainee to learn.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Nephthys
That doesn't really make any sense since all the evidence I use is stuff that is in fact real and in the books. I haven't lied about it.
I still haven't found the part about him inventing thousands of techniques yet. Feel free to post the quote once you have it.

MythLord
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Lol, in other words he created enough sequences for a trainee to learn.
The greatest trainee in an academy where every lesser Sith is worth hundreds of elite Imperial Troopers, yes.

carthage
He invents thousands of sequences, yet can't utilize any new ones, feints, or unorthodox moves to beat a trainee that's been using a lightsaber for months.

Lmao. Kas'im sucks

The Ellimist
Originally posted by MythLord
The greatest trainee in an academy where every lesser Sith is worth hundreds of elite Imperial Troopers, yes.

Lol, it was said that an arc trooper was worth a hundred clone troopers, and clone troopers >>>>> "imperial troopers".

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by MythLord
The greatest trainee in an academy where every lesser Sith is worth hundreds of elite Imperial Troopers, yes.
Also never said, as far as I recall. I do remember them being stomped by the Army of Light, a group of randoms, on several occasions however.

Nephthys
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Lol, in other words he created enough sequences for a trainee to learn.

You typically need to train to master a form. erm

Kas'im seems to have basically redesigned the forms using his own moves and sequences. He did this for every form and seeming every style. That's an example of a massive understanding of the forms and a bewildering technical and creative aptitude in them.

The Ellimist
Freshest tbf Kopecz did say something like a Sith Lord was worth a thousand soldiers, but that doesn't really mean much - it doesn't mean a Sith Lord could beat a thousand soldiers in an open firefight, kek.

The Ellimist
Originally posted by Nephthys
You typically need to train to master a form. erm

Kas'im seems to have basically redesigned the forms using his own moves and sequences. He did this for every form and seeming every style. That's an example of a massive understanding of the forms and a bewildering technical and creative aptitude in them.

Everyone can modify forms. Canon Anakin just casually mentions that he modifies form IV to deal with droids in one random hologram call, kek. Kas'im just does that seven times - it's a matter of taking the time to do it. So what are you trying to do? Signal his technical skill? Null, as explained. Suggest he'd have unfamiliar moves for Plo? Works both ways. Nothing to show here.

Nephthys
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Everyone can modify forms. Canon Anakin just casually mentions that he modifies form IV to deal with droids in one random hologram call, kek. Kas'im just does that seven times - it's a matter of taking the time to do it. So what are you trying to do? Signal his technical skill? Null, as explained. Suggest he'd have unfamiliar moves for Plo? Works both ways. Nothing to show here.

I already responded to this point. Try again, my child.

Also it's not as if a comparison to Anakin is unwelcome in this case. wink

Beniboybling
Plo benefits from 1,000 years of modification and improvement to lightsaber combat. Kas'im can't handle the level of baffling bewilderment that will cause. smile

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Freshest tbf Kopecz did say something like a Sith Lord was worth a thousand soldiers, but that doesn't really mean much - it doesn't mean a Sith Lord could beat a thousand soldiers in an open firefight, kek.
Yeah, not seeing that in PoD at all.

|King Joker|
Originally posted by Nephthys
Also it's not as if a comparison to Anakin is unwelcome in this case. wink lol thumb up

Aurbere
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Plo benefits from 1,000 years of modification and improvement to lightsaber combat. Kas'im can't handle the level of baffling bewilderment that will cause. smile

Thing is, you're not even wrong.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Plo benefits from 1,000 years of modification and improvement to lightsaber combat. Kas'im can't handle the level of baffling bewilderment that will cause. smile

A thousand years of stagnation and of the Jedi mostly neglecting to even bother with saber to saber combat with no foes to fight, sure.

Beniboybling
That nonetheless produced some of the greatest lightsaber duelists in mythos and the perfection of Juyo. mmm

The Ellimist
Kek, the PT Jedi are the most powerful and skilled to that point in history.

Aurbere
Plo specifically specialized in a Form designed for saber to saber combat and disarmed someone trained in the purest lightsaber combat form (Ventress). wink

Nephthys
Plo wasn't around for those 1000 years though. His enthusiasm isn't reflective of the Orders history. Nor, do I think, is it said that he improved upon existing techniques in any regard.

The Ellimist
Seriously, this is like putting the best boxer from the 19th century against a modern contender.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Nephthys
Plo wasn't around for those 1000 years though. His enthusiasm isn't reflective of the Orders history. Nor, do I think, is it said that he improved upon existing techniques in any regard. Lol you're not getting the point. After 1,000 years Djem So as a form would have been significantly improved, and Plo would have inherented those improvements by learning and perfecting the modern style. Because you know, people actually record this shit. thumb up

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Nephthys
A thousand years of stagnation and of the Jedi mostly neglecting to even bother with saber to saber combat with no foes to fight, sure.
As opposed to a thousand years of basically throwing people they pulled off the street at each other?

Nephthys
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Seriously, this is like putting the best boxer from the 19th century against a modern contender.

SW is notable for its lack of progression between era's. Or, often, outright regression.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Lol you're not getting the point. After 1,000 years Djem So as a form would have been significantly improved, and Plo would have inherented those improvements by learning and perfecting the modern style. Because you know, people actually record this shit. thumb up

This isn't reflected anywhere and is pure supposition. My argument is just as valid.

Beniboybling
It's reflected by the fact that improvements were made to forms during the PT era itself, an era that possessed a concentrated abundance of many of the greatest duelists in mythos, and that its entirely illogical to think various Jedi Masters would not have themselves made improvements over a thousand year period. laughing out loud

Your argument is made on baseless assertions, there is no evidence that the pre-Ruusan Jedi didn't bother with lightsaber combat, only Makashi became obsolete.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Nephthys
SW is notable for its lack of progression between era's. Or, often, outright regression.

I remember zero statements about the Jedi's regression in lightsaber forms.

|King Joker|
Ulic Qel-Droma vs. Plo Koon? mmm

Beniboybling
Originally posted by |King Joker|
Ulic Qel-Droma vs. Plo Koon? mmm Spite thread in Plo's favour. smile

Nephthys
Originally posted by Beniboybling
It's reflected by the fact that improvements were made to forms during the PT era itself, and that its entirely illogical to think varioius Jedi Masters would not have done the same over a thousand year period. laughing out loud

Your argument is made on baseless assertions, there is no evidence that the pre-Ruusan Jedi didn't bother with lightsaber combat, only Makashi became obsolete.

So would Kas'im own Revan or Arcann or the HoT because he was born 3000 years after them? That's an even greater amount of time between the two era's. Does Koon own Exar Kun, Tulak Hord or Ajunta Pall? I think that's a ridiculous assertion. The techniques of lightsaber combat have stayed the same for most of the mythos. Individuals possess heightened levels in skill, not era's. Individual skill and talent is THE defining attribute in regards to overall skill.

There's no notable improvements to the forms outside of Mace Windu and pals creating Vapaad. Outside of that, as I already said, the Jedi Order suffered from 1000 years of stagnation without lightsaber-wielding opposition. They ceased training for lightsaber duels or putting much emphasis in that area. How would they even know if their improvements actually were improvements instead of regressions without facing real opposition? Dooku is noted to be so effective precisely because he specialised in an archaic form. In the RotS novel Yoda specifically highlights that unlike the Sith, the Jedi Order has not improved in 1000 years and that's why they lost.

Regardless, the techniques of Kas'im were seemingly lost after the Brotherhoods fall. It's not as if Plo Koon could possess improvements on them.

Aurbere
I'm going to have to make a comprehensive post regarding all of this. For now, Plo wins. Flawless victory. Fatality.

The Ellimist
Yoda was talking about getting out maneuvered strategically, lawl.

Anyway on my phone but you're wrong

Nephthys
The majority of the Jedi disregarded the forms suited to lightsaber duels due to the absolute lack of need for them. If improvements were made, why assume they were made in regards to blade to blade dueling, which there would be no need to do, instead of towards blaster deflection etc?

The Ellimist
Originally posted by Nephthys
So would Kas'im own Revan or Arcann or the HoT because he was born 3000 years after them?

So, two things. Firstly, there are a variety of sources implying that the ancient sith were vastly superior to the Russan-era ones. No such sources suggest a gap between the Ruusan-era and modern era Force users - indeed, the opposite is repeatedly implied. We know that the dark side grows stronger over the thousand years, that each banite sith is superior to the previous, and that the PT Jedi Order is in its prime. We can also infer this from the absurdly high concentration of Vitiate+ tier Force users in the PT. A somewhat near-Vitiate-potential Force user in ancient times was essentially a massive outlier (.ie nobody could challenge Marka Ragnos), whereas in the span of like less than a century there are over a dozen (Anakin + Skywalkers, Palpatine, Yoda, Gethzerion, Galen Marek, Kyp Durron, Maul, etc.). There are more Yoda/Palpatine rivaling Force users in the movies + NJO era than in the entire prior history of the Old Republic.

Secondly, I don't think Kas'im could own the mentioned duelists because of the disparity in Force ability - as I was discussing above. It's entirely possible that he outstrips them in technical ability.




All of those quite frankly have better dueling feats than Kas'im, and are immensely powerful in the Force.



That's nonsense. You yourself just pointed out that Kas'im had made "thousands" of new techniques. We know that even in the decade between TPM and AotC, Windu was working on perfecting vaapad, an entirely new lightsaber style, and probably the deadliest ever created. Likewise, as you yourself pointed out, plenty of individuals can and have made improvements and innovations upon forms, partially for their idiosyncratic use, but that must sometimes translate into universal innovations that others could also take advantage of. And the PT Jedi Order had the benefit of one thousand years of uninterrupted knowledge growth, where all systematic innovations could be recorded, stored, and passed down. Given the improvements that were made in the few decades of the PT alone, there's no reason why this wouldn't have compounded over a millenium.

Kas'im is outdated. Accept it.



Nonsense - it's clearly a combination of both. The best chess players from the 18th century would be annihilated by any nationally competitive player today. Things improve over time.



They have training sabers, they can spar without needing to fight people for real - and indeed, it's made clear that they did spar regularly, and that these were pretty popular spectacles.

Modern UFC fighters would eviscerate ancient martial artists, despite the decreased importance of hand to hand combat.



Makashi wasn't discarded for being good at lightsaber combat, it was discarded because it was weak at blaster bolt deflection.



The Sith evolved philosophically and strategically, while the Jedi got arrogant and complacent. This has nothing to do with their dueling ability - if anything, their increase in power made them more arrogant.



So what? Kas'im is one man - Plo Koon has benefited from the incremental improvements of a thousand years of the Jedi at their prime.

Kas'im is old news.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Nephthys
So would Kas'im own Revan or Arcann or the HoT because he was born 3000 years after them? That's an even greater amount of time between the two era's. Does Koon own Exar Kun, Tulak Hord or Ajunta Pall? I think that's a ridiculous assertion. The techniques of lightsaber combat have stayed the same for most of the mythos. Individuals possess heightened levels in skill, not era's. Individual skill and talent is THE defining attribute in regards to overall skill.Why are you raising exceptions here? Exar Kun developed his own Niman form that outclassed the technique of his age, and there is evidently no continuity between the ancient Sith are their successive eras as their empire was destroyed.

As for Revan, Arcann and the HoT? Or course Kas'im, Plo Koon and other great PT masters are much more technically refined than all of them. Does Zakuul even have knowledge of the seven forms?Right, so its just a coincidence the PT era happens to be populated by what over half dozen of the greatest lightsaber masters in mythos, including the greatest of them all?

I mean can you substantiate any of these claims that you are making? I've yet to see you raise a single source to support this stagnation theory, I mean really, they ceased lightsaber duel training? So I guess the inumerable times we see Jedi sparring against each other in lightsaber combat were all outliers, a dream perhaps? Lmao. Utter nonsense.

Again, Makashi became obsolete, saberstaffs became obsolete and more Jedi favoured Niman. That's all there's evidence for.

And Yoda states that unlike the Sith, the Jedi have failed to adapt, not improve. Namely they were preparing to fight another Sith War, you know, one with lots of lightsaber to lightsaber combat.Who ever claimed as much? I mean you realise Plo Koon is a Jedi right? laughing out loud

Fated Xtasy
Hahaha. This will be amusing.

The Ellimist
When is Neph getting wrecked not?

The_Tempest
Pretty sure that's bullshit. I recall Yoda acknowledging the Sith improved in a number of ways whereas the Jedi spent all their time training to "fight the last war."

Meaning Yoda was prepared to fight the Sith like the Jedi used to, not the way Sheev fought.

The Ellimist
ROFLAMO so it actually breaks Neph's entire argument. thumb up

Beniboybling
Exactly, really shot himself in the foot there. erm

Aurbere
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Pretty sure that's bullshit. I recall Yoda acknowledging the Sith improved in a number of ways whereas the Jedi spent all their time training to "fight the last war."

Meaning Yoda was prepared to fight the Sith like the Jedi used to, not the way Sheev fought.

It's directly stated in the ROTS novel, yeah.

Beniboybling
Also can we take a moment just to acknowledge the sheer amount of saber talent the PT era possessed?

Kit Fisto, Dooku, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Yoda, Qui-Gon Jinn, Anakin Skywalker, Mace Windu and Sora Bulq have all been acknowledged as among the greatest duelists in mythos. Most being the best masters of their respective forms we know of.

And far from being exceptions, we have the likes of Agen Kolar, Shaak Ti, Depa Billaba, Quinlan Vos, Saesee Tinn, Anoon Bondara, Cin Drallig and Plo Koon who have been and have compared to their abilities. Many if not most of whom could give Darth Maul, one of the most skilled and highly trained Sith in history, a good or great fight.

But yeah, they were stagnating and nobody bothered with lightsaber combat anymore. roll eyes (sarcastic)

|King Joker|
Ahsoka Tano smile

ILS
It's amazing that Kas'im himself stresses the point that when you become good enough you can "move past forms and sequences", and yet here we are, spending years, dozens of threads and hundreds of posts arguing over whether or not Kas'im l33t saber knowledge is gonna earn him a win.

Aurbere
Speaking of Ahsoka, Joker. Can I pm you a question or two I have? It's general theory-crafting.

|King Joker|
Originally posted by Aurbere
Speaking of Ahsoka, Joker. Can I pm you a question or two I have? It's general theory-crafting. Of course.

Aurbere
Originally posted by ILS
It's amazing that Kas'im himself stresses the point that when you become good enough you can "move past forms and sequences", and yet here we are, spending years, dozens of threads and hundreds of posts arguing over whether or not Kas'im l33t saber knowledge is gonna earn him a win.

Clearly Kas'im isn't good enough then. wink

|King Joker|
Originally posted by ILS
It's amazing that Kas'im himself stresses the point that when you become good enough you can "move past forms and sequences", and yet here we are, spending years, dozens of threads and hundreds of posts arguing over whether or not Kas'im l33t saber knowledge is gonna earn him a win. Good point. mmm

ILS would you be cool with CaV'ing DMB on TPM Maul vs. Kas'im?

Not that he's said he wanted to do one, just curious on if hypothetically you'd be interested.

The Ellimist
@ILS: laughing out loud

@Beni: the PT/OT/NJO era in general has more elite non-entity combatants than the last 5000 years of recorded history.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
You can probably add entity to that too, tbh. thumb up

|King Joker|
Aurbere I'll respond to your PM when I get on my computer tbh

ILS
Originally posted by |King Joker|
Good point. mmm

ILS would you be cool with CaV'ing DMB on TPM Maul vs. Kas'im?

Not that he's said he wanted to do one, just curious on if hypothetically you'd be interested. Would I be cool with publicly mutilating someone?

mmm

I guess? The answer is kind of clear doe.

|King Joker|
Originally posted by ILS
Would I be cool with publicly mutilating someone?

mmm

I guess? The answer is kind of clear doe. I like that confidence smile

Though, I feel like a better debate for the both of you would be Bane vs. Maul. smile smile

The Ellimist
I could see DMB holding his own in Maul vs. Bane. IDK how he wins with Kas'im.

Tukata scaling, probably.

Nephthys
I no longer have the time no inclination to debate two people on the same subject. And I seem to have crashed atm, I'm bone tired. So I'll respond to a few things from Ellimist's attempt to cut in and my original opponent Beni.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
So, two things. Firstly, there are a variety of sources implying that the ancient sith were vastly superior to the Russan-era ones.

In Force techniques, mentality and organisation, sure. Not necessarily in terms of lightsaber forms. Even Bane, who utterly despaired of the Sith of his era, stated that Kas'im had perfected the forms and questioned if he was the greatest duelist in history.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
No such sources suggest a gap between the Ruusan-era and modern era Force users - indeed, the opposite is repeatedly implied. We know that the dark side grows stronger over the thousand years, that each banite sith is superior to the previous, and that the PT Jedi Order is in its prime. We can also infer this from the absurdly high concentration of Vitiate+ tier Force users in the PT. A somewhat near-Vitiate-potential Force user in ancient times was essentially a massive outlier (.ie nobody could challenge Marka Ragnos), whereas in the span of like less than a century there are over a dozen (Anakin + Skywalkers, Palpatine, Yoda, Gethzerion, Galen Marek, Kyp Durron, Maul, etc.). There are more Yoda/Palpatine rivaling Force users in the movies + NJO era than in the entire prior history of the Old Republic.

We're talking about lightsaber techniques here. Not power.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Secondly, I don't think Kas'im could own the mentioned duelists because of the disparity in Force ability - as I was discussing above. It's entirely possible that he outstrips them in technical ability.


All of those quite frankly have better dueling feats than Kas'im, and are immensely powerful in the Force.

roll eyes (sarcastic)

You know what I mean. Are their lightsaber techniques automatically superior just because they live a thousand or so years after each other? Is Plo Koon, an exceptional but hardly top tier duelist in his own era, above the very best of earlier periods in terms of skill, simply because he's from the PT period? Is the very best from Bane's era better than the very best of earlier ones?

------

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Why are you raising exceptions here?

Is Kas'im not exceptional?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Exar Kun developed his own Niman form that outclassed the technique of his age, and there is evidently no continuity between the ancient Sith are their successive eras as their empire was destroyed.

The same thing applies to Kas'im.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
As for Revan, Arcann and the HoT? Of course Kas'im, Plo Koon and other great PT masters are much more technically refined than all of them.

I highly disagree. smile

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Does Zakuul even have knowledge of the seven forms?

I'm not sure. Whatever they have must be effective against them though, judging from their performance against the Jedi and Sith. I'm sure Vitiate wouldn't allow his pet project to practise inferior methods.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Right, so its just a coincidence the PT era happens to be populated by what over half dozen of the greatest lightsaber masters in mythos, including the greatest of them all?

That's more about the sheer exposure the PT has in it's favor compared to, like, every other era combined?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I mean can you substantiate any of these claims that you are making? I've yet to see you raise a single source to support this stagnation theory, I mean really, they ceased lightsaber duel training? So I guess the inumerable times we see Jedi sparring against each other in lightsaber combat were all outliers, a dream perhaps? Lmao. Utter nonsense.

Again, Makashi became obsolete, saberstaffs became obsolete and more Jedi favoured Niman. That's all there's evidence for.

And what's the reason for this? It's exactly what I said, Jedi had less of a reason to practise the dueling arts so they turned away from the form favoring that kind of combat to the diplomats form. Makashi became obsolete because they never engaged in actual lightsaber combat, only practice bouts.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
And Yoda states that unlike the Sith, the Jedi have failed to adapt, not improve. Namely they were preparing to fight another Sith War, you know, one with lots of lightsaber to lightsaber combat.

Which is you admit is not what they did, as they moved away from lightsaber to lightsaber combat and when the Sith did reveal themselves Dooku ran rampant with his Makashi.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Who ever claimed as much? I mean you realise Plo Koon is a Jedi right? laughing out loud

The basic argument is that Plo Koon would possess far more evolved versions of the forms Kas'im wields. Firstly, this is a bastardisation of my original point, which is that Kas'im demonstrates exceptional talent, mastery and understanding of the forms from his utter mastery of all aspects of them and his ability to craft thousands of techniques and sequences for them all. To me, this demonstrates talent beyond anything attributable to Plo Koon.

Secondly, since Kas'im's teachings weren't accessible to the Jedi, how could Plo Koon wield an improved version of the techniques Kas'im invented? Furthermore, I find it hard to believe that given that Kas'im spent decades perfecting every single move of every single form that Plo Koon could possess a significantly improved version of the forms wielded by Kas'im. You're assuming there's a way to improve upon a form that's already been in effect for thousands of years and has been obsessively perfected by a prodigy. The onus is on you to prove that Plo Koon's techniques have actually been improved upon beyond what Kas'im "perfected" in his own time.

Thirdly, even if Plo Koon possesses a superior version of a single form to Kas'im, that does not mean that he is the superior practitioner with the form. Also Kas'im possesses absolute mastery of all the forms and can switch between saberstaff, dual sabers and single saber styles at will. His skills and capabilities still blow Koon's out of the water.

ILS
Originally posted by |King Joker|
I like that confidence smile

Though, I feel like a better debate for the both of you would be Bane vs. Maul. smile smile The Drew-force vs ILS' Maul. eek!

|King Joker|
Originally posted by ILS
The Drew-force vs ILS' Maul. eek! Pretty sure everyone and their brother wants to see that CaV. http://r31.imgfast.net/users/3113/36/14/96/smiles/212414727.gif

ILS
Originally posted by |King Joker|
Pretty sure everyone and their brother wants to see that CaV. http://r31.imgfast.net/users/3113/36/14/96/smiles/212414727.gif The only sense of scale we have for that fight is that Maul is apprenticed to the culmination of Bane's order of Sith, which grows stronger with each generation. You could argue Maul in no way benefits from the RoT scaling, because he didn't learn everything Palpatine had to teach him, or you could argue that him being noted in canon as a worthy successor of the RoT in Palpatine's stead by TPM alone indicates that after 1,000 years of power growth, he's probably better than Bane.

Otherwise it becomes a feat-war, which would involve DMB mustering all the wank Drew can lend him vs me shoving Rivi-Anu down his throat and berating his logical approach.

The Ellimist
Originally posted by ILS
The only sense of scale we have for that fight is that Maul is apprenticed to the culmination of Bane's order of Sith, which grows stronger with each generation. You could argue Maul in no way benefits from the RoT scaling, because he didn't learn everything Palpatine had to teach him, or you could argue that him being noted in canon as a worthy successor of the RoT in Palpatine's stead by TPM alone indicates that after 1,000 years of power growth, he's probably better than Bane.


Tbf, Maul's status as a worthy successor obviously deals with his potential, not his realized power which doesn't approach Sidious's. We can't establish that X fraction of his potential is greater than Bane's prime.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Are you still on the quest to form the perfect system, ILS? smile

Nephthys
This forum has enough cancer without someone unironically trying to use Rivi-Anu in a debate.

|King Joker|
Originally posted by ILS
The only sense of scale we have for that fight is that Maul is apprenticed to the culmination of Bane's order of Sith, which grows stronger with each generation. You could argue Maul in no way benefits from the RoT scaling, because he didn't learn everything Palpatine had to teach him, or you could argue that him being noted in canon as a worthy successor of the RoT in Palpatine's stead by TPM alone indicates that after 1,000 years of power growth, he's probably better than Bane.

Otherwise it becomes a feat-war, which would involve DMB mustering all the wank Drew can lend him vs me shoving Rivi-Anu down his throat and berating his logical approach. NGL that's a pretty good summary on what would likely happen.

Though, it'd still be fun as **** to see unfold.

ILS
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Tbf, Maul's status as a worthy successor obviously deals with his potential, not his realized power which doesn't approach Sidious's. We can't establish that X fraction of his potential is greater than Bane's prime. It might deal with potential, but then Maul's training was definitely closer to done than in progress. And as we know, the difference between Sidious and Bane is unfathomably large. So unless Maul was going to take several massive leaps in power before his time was done, which I don't think is the case, then yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if one of Palpy's potential successors is better than Bane.
Originally posted by Nephthys
This forum has enough cancer without someone unironically trying to use Rivi-Anu in a debate. y nat? It's just as bad writing as anything in the Bane trilogy, it just serves my purpose better.

Nephthys
A random padawan holding up a capital ship is worse than everything in the Bane trilogy combined.

The Ellimist
Originally posted by ILS
It might deal with potential, but then Maul's training was definitely closer to done than in progress.

I mean, he was in his twenties, right? Very few Force users are even at a fraction of their potential by that point.

And that very argument could be used to claim that Maul either doesn't have as much potential as Sidious's, or that he's already close to him.



He probably would've made several leaps in power though. Sidious grows more powerful from RotS to DE, for example. Luke grows massively more powerful from DE to NJO. Why would Maul's potential be unlocked so early if it's actually comparable to Sidious's?

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Nephthys
Is Kas'im not exceptional?

The same thing applies to Kas'im.Does he exist in the top-tier? Sure. Is he truly exceptional? No. I would put the likes of prime Bane, Zannah, Raskta Lsu and Sarro Xaj in his league, and it stands to reason they too had peers.

Kas'im is not an outlier for his era. Whereas the only person who compared to Kun was Ulic.Well unless you have evidence that demonstrates their technical skill, your opinion is irrelevant. smileI'm sure that's what you tell yourself at night. But if that were the case the TOR era wouldn't be the most notorious for its atrociously abused hype and ground realities.

It's had plenty exposure, as have other eras relative to their population.
Is that a source? No just more of Neph's opinion...When did I admit that? I imagine the Jedi put a good degree of effort into preparing for the return of the Sith, as Yoda's claim explicitly implies.

Again all that became obsolete was Makashi (though it was still practiced and encouraged), because of its singular focus on lightsaber combat in an age of blaster wielders.

More rounded forms like Shii-Cho, Ataru, Juyo, Djem So, all highly effective in lightsaber combat (but unlike Makashi, blaster deflection also), remained in good practice to our knowledge. thumb upYes, it's called using Neph's crappy arguments against him. Fun huh? smileWho said anything about improvement on Kas'im's personal technique?

My point is that Plo Koon's Form V would be notably more advanced than anything Kas'im has ever faced before, and probably more advanced than his form in general. Kas'im perfecting and improving ultimately heavily outdated, obsolete techniques doesn't really change that.Yet was still shat on by PoD Bane? Why was that again? Oh yeah because Bane had a Force advantage, good thing Koon has that advantage as well. wink

DarthAnt66
Beni got destroyed. laughing out loud

The Ellimist
Nah. Neph literally gave us a quote saying that the Jedi have been preparing to re-fight the New Sith Wars for a thousand years, right after claiming that they'd abandoned lightsaber dueling.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Beni got destroyed. laughing out loud Why do you degrade your credibility by supporting Neph Ant? At least do it when he's winning. erm

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Why are you such a douchebag to Neph, Beni? What did he ever do to you? smile

The Ellimist
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Why do you degrade your credibility by supporting Neph Ant?

Is Ant lowering himself by supporting Neph, or is Neph lowering himself by supporting Ant? mmm

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Why are you such a douchebag to Neph, Beni? What did he ever do to you? smile
Probably whatever Beni did to Ant.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Why are you such a douchebag to Neph, Beni? What did he ever do to you? smile As a proponent of Sheevism, its company policy. Nothing personal. smileOriginally posted by The Ellimist
Is Ant lowering himself by supporting Neph, or is Neph lowering himself by supporting Ant? mmm Well to be fair, its probably the latter. yes

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Sounds like we need a certain Polish Poorfag to stop this "company policy" smile

The_Tempest

ILS
Originally posted by The Ellimist I mean, he was in his twenties, right? Very few Force users are even at a fraction of their potential by that point.He was 34 by SoD. Bane hit the an hero at 46. If we are to believe the kind of training available to a RoT Sith is a 1000 years more advanced than it was for Bane, and Maul was trained since he was an infant (opposed to Bane only getting shit training by the age of like 18 or something), I don't think it's far fetched he could have exceeded him at least by SoD, where he's said to be growing in power ever since leaving Lotho Minor and as a result of being there in the first place.

I don't think he does have quite as much as Sidious, but probably enough to be better than Bane.

Btw, what do you make of Maul surviving bisection? Given that it's a feat nearly unparalleled among Sith, something that caused pretty much everyone in CW to shit themselves, and is something that Sidious hadn't even thought possible until Maul pulled it off (which according to Witwer is the "seed planted in Sidious' head" that made him realize that Vader could survive his own injuries).

There's also the fact everyone from Anakin to Yoda to Dooku felt Maul as a "sinister rising" in the Force just because Savage was on his way to retrieving him from Lotho Minor.

It's not the same as pulling down a temple, sure, but the message is clear; Maul is clearly a remarkably powerful Sith. Enough to outwank Karpyshyn? Happy Dance

The Ellimist
laughing out loud (edit: @Tempest)

Beniboybling
I also love how Neph claims the forms to be static, yet freely takes a face value the notion that Kas'im was, alone, able to make thousands of innovations. rolling on floor laughing

The Ellimist
Originally posted by ILS
He was 34 by SoD. Bane hit the an hero at 46. If we are to believe the kind of training available to a RoT Sith is a 1000 years more advanced than it was for Bane, and Maul was trained since he was an infant (opposed to Bane only getting shit training by the age of like 18 or something), I don't think it's far fetched he could have exceeded him at least by SoD, where he's said to be growing in power ever since leaving Lotho Minor and as a result of being there in the first place.


That's actually fairly convincing.

Maul stomps.

ILS
Originally posted by The Ellimist
That's actually fairly convincing.

Maul stomps. My man. thumb up

Beniboybling
Well the issue I see with it being that Maul spent roughly 10 of those years undergoing no training at all. mmm

ILS
Training isn't the only way to gather power. smile

Being pushed to your limits lets you break a barrier training alone can't help budge. Maul being forced to survive without legs with nothing else other than his command of the Dark Side, and being left in shithole population himself for 12 years, to stew over his life's work being a complete and utter failure, helped him push those limits. He was insanely pissed.

Beniboybling
True, very true.

Emperordmb
I'm going to take a few minutes out of my busy day to address the ridiculous claim that mastery of one form in the Clone Wars era is apparently better than perfecting every move and sequence of the seven forms of lightsaber combat a thousand years earlier and in all prior eras because time gap.

For that to be true, the Jedi in that single thousand years would've needed to surmount the development of lightsaber combat in the several thousand years prior to the battle of Ruusan seven times over for mastering one form in the PT era to match Kas'im mastering all seven forms, never mind Kas'im spending decades after mastering all seven forms perfecting every move and sequence of the seven forms of lightsaber combat.

Also, even the battlemasters of Kas'im's era note that such a level of mastery is well beyond their grasp, whereas just about anyone worth anything in the PT era is capable of mastering one form. So you'd also have to assume that for whatever reason anyone capable of mastering a form in the PT era is somehow just naturally better at learning lightsaber techniques than the Jedi battlemasters of the eras preceding theirs and its not like the brains of every species in the galaxy evolved in such a way that would allow lightsaber combat to be that much more quickly learned.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
thumb up Kas'im cuts down the Kel Dor.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Emperordmb

Also, even the battlemasters of Kas'im's era
Where you ****ed up, son.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Emperordmb
I'm going to take a few minutes out of my busy day to address the ridiculous claim that mastery of one form in the Clone Wars era is apparently better than perfecting every move and sequence of the seven forms of lightsaber combat a thousand years earlier and in all prior eras because time gap.

For that to be true, the Jedi in that single thousand years would've needed to surmount the development of lightsaber combat in the several thousand years prior to the battle of Ruusan seven times over for mastering one form in the PT era to match Kas'im mastering all seven forms, never mind Kas'im spending decades after mastering all seven forms perfecting every move and sequence of the seven forms of lightsaber combat.

Also, even the battlemasters of Kas'im's era note that such a level of mastery is well beyond their grasp, whereas just about anyone worth anything in the PT era is capable of mastering one form. So you'd also have to assume that for whatever reason anyone capable of mastering a form in the PT era is somehow just naturally better at learning lightsaber techniques than the Jedi battlemasters of the eras preceding theirs and its not like the brains of every species in the galaxy evolved in such a way that would allow lightsaber combat to be that much more quickly learned. What? Mastery over 7 forms doesn't make you 7 times better than someone whose mastered one. laughing out loud

And Plo Koon is among the most premier Jedi in the Order, why are you assuming his mastery over Djem So was the same as anyone else's? Whoever claimed that every "master" of Djem So in the Jedi Order > Kas'im.

Aurbere
Originally posted by Beniboybling
What? Mastery over 7 forms doesn't make you 7 times better than someone whose mastered one. laughing out loud

And Plo Koon is among the most premier Jedi in the Order, why are you assuming his mastery over Djem So was the same as anyone else's?

Mace Wndu confirmed 7X better than Dooku. Flawless argument. DMB solos. thumb up

cs_zoltan
Cin Drallig would beat 7 Dookus.

Beniboybling
Those few minutes taken out of his day really went to waste. mmm

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Originally posted by Aurbere
Mace Wndu confirmed 7X better than Dooku. Flawless argument. DMB solos. thumb up

You've been providing some top notch arguments yourself, haven't y--

Oops. My bad. Threw up in my mouth a bit. smile

Aurbere
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
You've been providing some top notch arguments yourself, haven't y--

Oops. My bad. Threw up in my mouth a bit. smile

I'm writing something right now. So shut up. smile

The Ellimist
The gap between the top tier Brotherhood combatants and the top tier PT combatants is so massive that Kas'im status doesn't really mean much (and just mastering a bunch of lightsaber forms is trivial at this level).

Yoda, Anakin, Windu, Obi Wan. Compare that to Kas'im and...Kaan? Qordis? Kopecz? ROFLAMO. All of the latter except for sort-of Kas'im were no match for a trainee Bane, and I think ILS has made a convincing case for Maul > peak Bane. The disparity between the two eras is just massive. I could buy Plo being above Kas'im.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Originally posted by Aurbere
I'm writing something right now. So shut up. smile

Right now as in every right now there's ever been or ever will be? It's been a while, bruh. smile

Aurbere
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Right now as in every right now there's ever been or ever will be? It's been a while, bruh. smile

A whole day...

I don't see you making any arguments though. erm

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Originally posted by Aurbere
A whole day...

I don't see you making any arguments though. erm

You also don't see me talking shit about those that are. Which is my point. Hush. smile

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Aurbere
A whole day...

I don't see you making any arguments though. erm Tbh Skillz is in minus points right now for agreeing with DMB. smile

Aurbere
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
You also don't see me talking shit about those that are. Which is my point. Hush. smile

Color Commentary, bro. Learn2Cast.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Beni, I actually like you more than almost anyone else on this board does. You've adopted my...forum emotions. smilesmilesmile

Aurbere
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Tbh Skillz is in minus points right now for agreeing with DMB. smile

Minus maximum infinity points.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I'm flying/driving to Fated's right now. Somebody get me the penetrator. smile

Emperordmb
Unsurprisingly my post is being completely misunderstood. I'm not arguing Kas'im wins just because of mastery of all seven forms, I'm saying that arguing mastering one form in the PT era grants you more knowledge or skill than perfecting every lightsaber technique and sequence in any era prior is a ****ing stupid argument.

And I don't see how Skillz agreeing with that point makes him have minus points or whatever.

FreshestSlice
No one likes the guy who helps the one being gang raped in prison, but they can't argue against SKILLZ because he's made no points of his own.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Unsurprisingly my post is being completely misunderstood. I'm not arguing Kas'im wins just because of mastery of all seven forms, I'm saying that arguing mastering one form in the PT era grants you more knowledge or skill than perfecting every lightsaber technique and sequence in any era prior is a ****ing stupid argument.

And I don't see how Skillz agreeing with that point makes him have minus points or whatever. Right, because this has to do with one's knowledge of lightsaber forms, rather than who would win a fight. erm

OK, Kas'im gets points for studying hard. Fact remains Plo Koon's Djem So technique is better than anything he has in his arsenal, and he will be defeated by it.Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Beni, I actually like you more than almost anyone else on this board does. You've adopted my...forum emotions. smilesmilesmile I believe this to be a complement. smile smile smile

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
thumb up @ Freshest

I'm essentially the physical embodiment of derailment. I've accepted this ground reality and in return can bestow my powers on whomever I choose. smile

Emperordmb
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Right, because this has to do with one's knowledge of lightsaber forms, rather than who would win a fight. erm

OK, Kas'im gets points for studying hard. Fact remains Plo Koon's Djem So technique is better than anything he has in his arsenal, and he will be defeated by it.
>Suggests knowledge of lightsaber forms doesn't mean shit in a fight
>Immediately afterwards says Plo will defeat Kas'im because of his "evolved" understanding of Djem So :/

The Ellimist
I think the bigger answer is just that this fight is impossible to resolve given the information we have.

Fated Xtasy
@dmb

It's only logical that forms would develop new strikes and such as Jedi find new sources of knowledge.

Remember, Juyo didn't come into play until the beginning of Kotor 2. Thus we can't say that a typical Juyo master from that era(ex Atris) is in any feasible way on par -in terms of mastery- with Bane or someone like Bulq.


Dismissing this for the moment, you have to acknowledge that there's no feasible way Kas'im could have mastered everything there was to know about lightsaber fighting, because each style is personal, each style is unique, and each Jedi can gear their style into a complete unique and unorthodox thing.

For example;

A shien specialist using shien to duel.(Gallia)

Ataru user fighting multiple opponents(Yoda, QGJ, Quinlan)

Ataru user fighting a prolonged battle(QGJ, Xanatos, Yoda)

In my humble opinion, whenever the quote about being the best is ever mentioned, I think of it as. "He mastered everything there was to master... at the time"

Just my two cents, is all.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Emperordmb
>Suggests knowledge of lightsaber forms doesn't mean shit in a fight
>Immediately afterwards says Plo will defeat Kas'im because of his "evolved" understanding of Djem So :/ Must it be spelled out? Cin Drallig has more knowledge of lightsaber combat that Obi-Wan, he'd still lose in a fight, because Kenobi's technique is better.

Likewise the fact that Kas'im possesses a wider knowledge of the seven styles doesn't prove he's advanced any one of those styles to such a level that it could beat Plo's Form V. Your point is moot.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Must it be spelled out? Cin Drallig has more knowledge of lightsaber combat that Obi-Wan, he'd still lose in a fight, because Kenobi's technique is better.

Likewise the fact that Kas'im possesses a wider knowledge of the seven styles doesn't prove he's advanced any one of those styles to such a level that it could beat Plo's Form V. Your point is moot.
So what proves Plo's Form V is advanced beyond the level of any of Kas'im's styles?

Beniboybling
Lel, how about you read the past few pages. I'm going to bed.

The Ellimist
Originally posted by Emperordmb
So what proves Plo's Form V is advanced beyond the level of any of Kas'im's styles?

A thousand years of improvement. Now it's a question of individual refinement and to what extent any disparity in that interacts with Kas'im's wider breadth of mastery and Plo's advantage of successive improvements. We have no idea. This is just a matter of opinion.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
@dmb

It's only logical that forms would develop new strikes and such as Jedi find new sources of knowledge.

Remember, Juyo didn't come into play until the beginning of Kotor 2. Thus we can't say that a typical Juyo master from that era(ex Atris) is in any feasible way on par -in terms of mastery- with Bane or someone like Bulq.
Naturally yes more knowledge would be acquired over time, but Plo Koon having a superior technical understanding of Djem So to Kas'im's is assuming he actually perfected every move and sequence of Djem So, something I don't think there's confirmation for.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Dismissing this for the moment, you have to acknowledge that there's no feasible way Kas'im could have mastered everything there was to know about lightsaber fighting, because each style is personal, each style is unique, and each Jedi can gear their style into a complete unique and unorthodox thing.

For example;

A shien specialist using shien to duel.(Gallia)

Ataru user fighting multiple opponents(Yoda, QGJ, Quinlan)

Ataru user fighting a prolonged battle(QGJ, Xanatos, Yoda)
That doesn't preclude Kas'im perfecting every move of lightsaber combat though, and his perfection of every sequence as well, many of which rapidly switch between several forms at once, shows that he can use the individual moves in an extremely wide array of combinations.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
In my humble opinion, whenever the quote about being the best is ever mentioned, I think of it as. "He mastered everything there was to master... at the time"

Just my two cents, is all.
Sure but that doesn't mean anyone in the future who mastered a form automatically took it to a level beyond Kas'im's.

ILS
The fugging Force is the answer. The fugging FORCE. Who gives a shit about forms? Srsly? A form is just an instruction manual. It tells you what is up and down. This is strike zone 1, this is strike zone 2. Strike zone 3 and 4 you will find by the legs.

What the instruction manual doesn't tell you is how to attack those zones in the most creative, unpredictable or efficient way. I mean, it gives you textbook principles, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to perfect a sequence.

Where the Force comes in is when it occurs to someone like say, Baney Stu, to attack Zone 2 from a 0000.45 degree angle while flipping the bird at a baby and throwing an ice skate, for no reason other than "the Force told me to a millisecond ago". In other words, the forms are rendered a stepping stone for a higher level of combat to surface, as dictated by the participant's strength in the Force.

The only way technical knowledge can provide an edge against a more powerful foe is if the opponent is well and truly ignorant of what he's fighting against.

We don't have the kind of information on every single duelist to know whether or not they know how X or Y fights and whether or not that'd be an issue, but given that the only time this knowledge-deficit thing has surfaced was with Bane fighting something he had never fought before in his short time spent training, opposed to Jedi Masters like Plo with decades of experience and training, I doubt it'll matter.

Emperordmb
You'll notice I wasn't saying that was why Kas'im wins. I'm just saying arguing a technical edge for Plo because he lived in a later era is bullshit.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
@ILS thumb up not sure why people are talking about raw technical mastery in and of itself.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Emperordmb
You'll notice I wasn't saying that was why Kas'im wins. I'm just saying arguing a technical edge for Plo because he lived in a later era is bullshit.
He realizes, but he made the argument a few pages back, and everyone ignored, so he decided to say it louder this time.

Nephthys
If anyone bothered to pay attention to my post, I wasn't arguing that Kas'ims technical knowledge gives him the win (though having far more versatility, techniques and strengths to draw upon obviously gives you a massive advantage). I was arguing that Kas'im has demonstrated superior aptitude to lightsaber combat and more talent with it than Plo Koon has. I mean, Kas'im mastered every lightsaber form in a few years. That's pretty dang prodigious. And then he spent decades perfecting every move until he was obsessively intimate with all aspects of the forms. And he created thousands of techniques for all forms across seemingly all styles. That's amazing. Ellimist mocking it as "trainee" stuff is blatantly idiotic. There's a difference in training someone in Kung Fu and inventing Kung Fu. Someone who can take thousands of years of an art and completely revolutionise it is a martial arts genius, no questions asked.

Though I will note how hilarious that now that it's Kas'im mastering all forms it's all totally irrelevant. But for the past decade+ everyone has slobbered all over Yoda and Sidious for doing the same. laughing

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