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If the TOR Sith Empire was suddenly thrust into the PT era and was forced to attack immediatel, which force would win the war?

Assuming this is the SE as of the beginning of the GW then I'd say they win. Otherwise it could go either way assuming it's not as of KotFE.

GAR

Logistics advantage, vastly greater resources and tech. Versatility and much better in fighters/ships, ground troops and so on.

SE has super weapons, but it's not as if those can't be dealt with.

I don't think that GAR have advantage in the aspect of Technology.

Does GAR have any superweapons? Ancient Sith Empire built several.

The Clone Armies are also going to face much more dynamic and capable forces in ancient Sith.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I don't think that GAR have advantage in the aspect of Technology.

Does GAR have any superweapons? Ancient Sith Empire built several.

The Clone Armies are also going to face much more dynamic and capable forces in ancient Sith.

The SE doesn't really have much in the way of ships and fighters, their standard fighter and bomber aren't gonna be a real match for an ARC-170 or an ETA-2 Interceptor or whatever other starfighter the Clones have.


Their biggest ship is a Dreadnaught which is fine, but the Venator heavily outclasses that in terms of fighter support.

Now they do have the advantage of super weapons, but it's not as if those can't be destroyed, given that they are all on ships. If the OR can get information and strike forces to destroy them, I have no doubt that the GAR would be able to do the same with their Intelligence branch and SF.

What's the canonical number of Sith in the Sith Empire and clones in the GAR?

Millions of Sith.

Millions of Sith.

I'm wondering if the PT could stave off the numbers disadvantage with superior tech. mmm

That's what I was gonna post. You stole my words, Joker.

Clones have 3++ million according to the CWCG, not really seeing number advantage, if there is any it'll be small.

Add to that the SE standard commanders aren't particularly smart, the fact that a mere 50k force was considered unprecedented at the time got destroyed by a paltry force of a 4k+ Republic Forces that they had to call for backup. Because hey, they just decided to throw their giant numbers advantage and hoped for the best.

A 50k army is pretty much nothing, that's just above a Clone Corps which is 36k troopers and vastly below a Sector Army which is 146k troops.

Well, Sith > clones, so the fact they have comparable numbers still puts it in favor of the Sith Empire. They also have there own ground troops that can compete with the clones, right?

On another note, the GAR probably do have a tactical / strategic advantage.

Originally posted by Aurbere
Millions of Sith.
Who die to even shitter robots than the Separatists'.


Millions of Sith, my ass.

It is stated to be 'millions'. The actual prowess of the average Sith in the SWTOR SE, though, is questionable.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
Well, Sith > clones, so the fact they have comparable numbers still puts it in favor of the Sith Empire. They also have there own ground troops that can compete with the clones, right?

On another note, the GAR probably do have a tactical / strategic advantage.

The thing is though...the standard Sith Warrior seen in the trailer of Hope...aren't that great. Of course they'd have the advantage of melee combat, but it's not as if troopers weren't killing them. Heck one of them got clocked in the face with the butt of a blaster rifle and sent into the ground.

Far as the SE Troops?....Eh, I don't find them really impressive tbh.

Although, the quality of the average Sith probably started to go up when they reconquered Korriban and installed the Sith trials, challenges, etc.

Wasn't the Battle of Alderaan like way after they conquered Korriban and all that? The same with the Battle of Bothawui.

Still if a 50k numbers is what the SE considers to be an Army, they are gonna have a hard time getting anywhere. That's if they are even able to land any troops, if they get any space.

Should be like 10-15 years difference.

10-50 years after? Then fvck logic. I don't get how can a Sith be mediocre after passing the Korriban trials seen in the story arcs of Inq and Warr.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
10-50 years after? Then fvck logic. I don't get how can a Sith be mediocre after passing the Korriban trials seen in the story arcs of Inq and Warr.

Well not every Sith is the Inq and Warrior, they are noted as special after all.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
It is stated to be 'millions'. The actual prowess of the average Sith in the SWTOR SE, though, is questionable.
Or you know, it's not actually millions of Sith Lords and apprentices.

Yes of course, but anyone who successfully survives and emerges a Sith after the extremely harsh and difficult trials in Korriban shouldn't be mediocre. It makes little sense for these hardened Sith to be tossed aside like it was nothing.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Or you know, it's not actually millions of Sith Lords and apprentices.


I thought they were talking about Sith, not troops.

It's the SE, I doubt they really care much for their troops when they can always pump out more and more(they just sent 50k troops to die with 0 strategy in mind at the Battle of Bothawui). Though here I don't see that being the case.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian


I thought they were talking about Sith, not troops.
The source for the there being "millions of Sith," is a quote talking about selecting for the Emperor's Wrath. It says the Hand personally went through these millions of Sith and found the player character the most impressive out of all of them. Now, even if I suspended my belief enough to say they actually counted millions of Sith and examined the combat prowess of each and every one before selecting Baras' apprentice, it's not even possible for their to be millions of Sith given the size of Sith space. Even at the Republic's height, the highest number of Jedi is 10,000. The prevalence of Force Sensitivity is no higher in the Empire, especially after the Great Galactic War, from what we actually see in game, and even if it was, most of the Sith sent to the Academy are culled. The idea that it is remotely possible, let lone probable, for millions of Sith is kek worthy, especially since one planet's worth of Force Sensitives stomped all of them. And no, Sith weren't dying by the millions during the second part of the Great War, and despite the forum saying both sides were weakened, this is never said anywhere in game.

For the sake of ease of discussion, I'm going to assume this is the SE as of the start of the GW.

Pubs have numbers and tactics advantage, however, SE has the Sith advantage, and each Sith is worth at the very minimum 5 clones, not to mention the Lords, Darth's, and DC members. And don't forget that Mekhis, Kilran and Jadus are alive and fully active, not to mention the advantage of Imprrial Intelligence and Marr and the DM's are fully active in combat.

I was figuring we weren't using any named people here.

Originally posted by Aurbere
Millions of Sith. Originally posted by Nephthys
Millions of Sith. Can someone provide a quote for this, because that not what is says in my copy...

At the start of the Great Galactic War, Jadus is gone, Imperial Intelligence is disassembled, Kilran is dead, Mekhis is dead, Baras has already begun sabotaging the war on Corellia, etc. The fact that the Republic is an actual foe at all, which it is even before the infighting which was only caused by the Emperor's death, shows the Sith are no where near as powerful as they think they are. And lel at the Sith being an advantage over Jedi Knights training a thousand years to face Sith.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
The source for the there being "millions of Sith," is a quote talking about selecting for the Emperor's Wrath. It says the Hand personally went through these millions of Sith and found the player character the most impressive out of all of them. Now, even if I suspended my belief enough to say they actually counted millions of Sith and examined the combat prowess of each and every one before selecting Baras' apprentice, it's not even possible for their to be millions of Sith given the size of Sith space. Even at the Republic's height, the highest number of Jedi is 10,000. The prevalence of Force Sensitivity is no higher in the Empire, especially after the Great Galactic War, from what we actually see in game, and even if it was, most of the Sith sent to the Academy are culled. The idea that it is remotely possible, let lone probable, for millions of Sith is kek worthy, especially since one planet's worth of Force Sensitives stomped all of them. And no, Sith weren't dying by the millions during the second part of the Great War, and despite the forum saying both sides were weakened, this is never said anywhere in game.

I'll agree that it is a ridiculous statement, and given what we see in-game and the actual Sith space, it's most likely a hyperbole. But I wouldn't go lower than thousands.

Yeah, I'll side with the PT Republic.

Though, even if the Jedi in the PT were training to fight Sith for a thousand years, it's evident the vast majority are very inexperienced which would cost them heavily, I think.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
Though, even if the Jedi in the PT were training to fight Sith for a thousand years, it's evident the vast majority are very inexperienced which would cost them heavily, I think.

I would think so were the OR Jedi, given the Sith hadn't been around for a long time before they first came about, yet they seemed to do alright.

Granted not at first and yes, there is a larger time gap but if the PT had been training to fight the Sith again, the inexperience won't be that drastic I feel.

If taking into account Maul was the first Sith Lord the Jedi ever encountered after such a long time, Qui-Gon did pretty well as did Obi-Wan. That and Jedi do train against Sith Lord holograms as part of their Jedi trails.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
Though, even if the Jedi in the PT were training to fight Sith for a thousand years, it's evident the vast majority are very inexperienced which would cost them heavily, I think. Yeah especially considering they stopped bothering with lightsaber combat training. mmm

And this is what the SWTORE says on the Sith for what it's worth:

"MILLIONS STRIVE to become Sith, but many prove to weak to earn the honor."

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yeah especially considering they stopped bothering with lightsaber combat training. mmm




?? They didn't?...

There's a difference between training for something versus actually being embroiled in war and experiencing things first-hand.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
?? They didn't?...
You can't be this thick.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yeah especially considering they stopped bothering with lightsaber combat training. mmm

And this is what the SWTORE says on the Sith for what it's worth:

"MILLIONS STRIVE to become Sith, but many prove to weak to earn the honor."
The quote was about the Emperor's Hand selecting the Wrath, if I recall correctly.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
?? They didn't?... They did according to Neph, and I'm sure he has his sources.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
There's a difference between training for something versus actually being embroiled in war and experiencing things first-hand.
You don't just dive head first into war either, so the point?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
You can't be this thick.



Sorry, didn't realize that was a joke until after I posted.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
You don't just dive head first into war either, so the point? The PT Jedi would be facing Sith who have been fighting on the front lines for years and thus are likely better combatively equipped to take on inexperienced Jedi? Maybe?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Can someone provide a quote for this, because that not what is says in my copy...

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yeah especially considering they stopped bothering with lightsaber combat training. mmm

And this is what the SWTORE says on the Sith for what it's worth:

"MILLIONS STRIVE to become Sith, but many prove to weak to earn the honor."

Right, but it also says:

Many Sith spend their lives plotting their ascension to the Council, but with MILLIONS vying for only 12 seats, the competition is cutthroat."

And:

"MILLIONS of the galaxy's most powerful Sith were considered, but ultimately only one would prove worthy to serve the Emperor."

Originally posted by |King Joker|
The PT Jedi would be facing Sith who have been fighting on the front lines for years and thus are likely better combatively equipped to take on inexperienced Jedi? Maybe?
No, they'd be facing Sith who just started a war after the last one completely decimated their order. Do you even TOR, Joker? I can't tell.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Do you even TOR, Joker? No.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
At the start of the Great Galactic War, Jadus is gone, Imperial Intelligence is disassembled, Kilran is dead, Mekhis is dead, Baras has already begun sabotaging the war on Corellia, etc. The fact that the Republic is an actual foe at all, which it is even before the infighting which was only caused by the Emperor's death, shows the Sith are no where near as powerful as they think they are. And lel at the Sith being an advantage over Jedi Knights training a thousand years to face Sith.

Isn't that actually the "Second" Great Galactic War?

It's just treated as one big war, as far as I've seen. KotFE said you're a veteran of the "Great Galactic War" of which you were a child during the first one.

That's confusing. Still, wouldn't that make the start of the war around "Return"?

Sure, but this thread says the SWTOR Sith Empire, which I assume is within the game's time frame.

SWTOR takes place during the Cold War, the Second Galactic War happens after.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Right, but it also says:

Many Sith spend their lives plotting their ascension to the Council, but with MILLIONS vying for only 12 seats, the competition is cutthroat."

And:

"MILLIONS of the galaxy's most powerful Sith were considered, but ultimately only one would prove worthy to serve the Emperor." Fair enough. mmm

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
At the start of the Great Galactic War, Jadus is gone, Imperial Intelligence is disassembled, Kilran is dead, Mekhis is dead, Baras has already begun sabotaging the war on Corellia, etc. The fact that the Republic is an actual foe at all, which it is even before the infighting which was only caused by the Emperor's death, shows the Sith are no where near as powerful as they think they are. And lel at the Sith being an advantage over Jedi Knights training a thousand years to face Sith. They trained 1000 years to face the Sith, but still 10 000 clones were able to slaughter everyone inside the jedi temple in a few hours. Your average PT Jedi is not that great

Yeah. Think of what would have happened if Anakin was there. Complete annihilation.

Originally posted by Total Warrior
They trained 1000 years to face the Sith, but still 10 000 clones were able to slaughter everyone inside the jedi temple in a few hours. Your average PT Jedi is not that great Lol

Originally posted by Beniboybling
SWTOR takes place during the Cold War, the Second Galactic War happens after.
Fair enough. mmm

Ok, so we now know it wasn't a hyperbole, just a stupid, flawed, logicless and idiotic statement made by the creators of the game.

Originally posted by Total Warrior
They trained 1000 years to face the Sith, but still 10 000 clones were able to slaughter everyone inside the jedi temple in a few hours. Your average PT Jedi is not that great I don't think there were many Jedi at the Temple, so there was a large numbers deficit against the Jedi, not to mention Anakin was leading them who's capable of easily wasting one of the most skilled Jedi at the temple. Not to mention it was a surprise attack. They basically had the entire Republic military against them bombing the temple as well. It really shouldn't be used against them, honestly.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
SWTOR takes place during the Cold War, the Second Galactic War happens after.
mmm
The war starts in Chapter II of pretty much everybody's story. What the hell are you talking about?

Originally posted by |King Joker|
I don't think there were many Jedi at the Temple, so there was a large numbers deficit against the Jedi, not to mention Anakin was leading them who's capable of easily wasting one of the most skilled Jedi at the temple. Not to mention it was a surprise attack. They basically had the entire Republic military against them bombing the temple as well. It really shouldn't be used against them, honestly.

It's even noted most able bodied Jedi Knights were away from the Temple.



Plus it was the entire 501st Legion, which a Clone Legion is 9k+ troops.

So with most Jedi away from the Temple, plus surprise, plus an entire legion with a Sith lord backing, it really can't be used against them.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
The war starts in Chapter II of pretty much everybody's story. What the hell are you talking about? Yeah after the Cold War, which is where the story begins. Which would make it the second Galactic War.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Ok, so we now know it wasn't a hyperbole, just a stupid, flawed, logicless and idiotic statement made by the creators of the game.

As I've said in the past, I don't find it stupid. Quite the opposite. It's hardly TOR's fault that the numbers for every other era in the mythos are dumb. A couple thousand members of a galaxy spanning republic/empire are hardly going to make a ripple. The standard 10,000 number is moronic, another example of SF writers having no sense of scale.

Tbh millions does make much more sense than thousands.

EDIT: Though frankly Sith/Jedi in SWTOR are visibly much more populous than they are in the Clone Wars.

In TOR you see squads of Jedi and Sith on the regular in battles and garrisoning positions. In the CW you mainly see a few Jedi together at most.

Yeah when Jedi Padawans are being put in charge of regiments, and Jedi Knights automatically being made generals, its clear they are not that many.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
It's even noted most able bodied Jedi Knights were away from the Temple.



Plus it was the entire 501st Legion, which a Clone Legion is 9k+ troops.

So with most Jedi away from the Temple, plus surprise, plus an entire legion with a Sith lord backing, it really can't be used against them. mmm, I didn't know it. Since the war was almost over , I've always thought that most jedi had already retreated from the battlefields and came back to the temple. Well, if most jedi in temple were padawans and unexperienced knights (basically temple guards were the only valuable fighters inside the temple then) their defeat makes much more sense.

Originally posted by Total Warrior
mmm, I didn't know it. Since the war was almost , I've always thought that most jedi had already retreated from the battlefields and came back to the temple. Well, if most jedi in temple were padawans and unexperienced knights (basically temple guards were the only valuable fighters inside the temple then) their defeat makes much more sense.

There were some Jedi Masters too, but I mean overwhelming numbers are still overwhelming numbers. Much like the Arena battle in EP 2, there were 200 something Jedi facing down thousands and thousands of droids, that just poured on through.

I think the 10,000 number is fine. I like Force sensitivity being extremely rare.

I'm talking like as if return. The very beginning

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yeah after the Cold War, which is where the story begins. Which would make it the second Galactic War.
It's called the Great galactic War in game, not the second Great Galactic War. Let it go.

As for the millions of Sith thing, that never made sense. Million is quite a big number, in case you didn't realize. Even saying there is a hundred thousand Sith is being generous, unless you're including acolytes.

Right, the Second Great Galactic War, the fact this can be abbreviated doesn't change what it is.

Ultimately it's a semantical issue, but at the very least the Great Galactic War did not "start" in Chapter II, merely resumed.Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Million is quite a big number, in case you didn't realize. Millions is a big number, in every context. Fresh-tier logic.

That said, I agree with Joker. It makes more sense Force sensitive's would be rare, but in the quantity we seem them in SWTOR, millions is probably quite accurate.

At any rate, the SE has a disadvantage in tech barring their super weapons. Their fighters aren't up to snuff against the GAR's fighters, their biggest ship, a Harrower won't last long in any engagement against a single Republic Venator due to the hilarious fighter advantage it has.

Far as ground goes....SE has Sith....fine, whatever...some War Droids and Walkers.

GAR has Clones, Walkers(of a variety), Tanks(of a variety) and Jedi.

They also have air support with their Low Altitude Assault Transports along with any fighter support too. So air advantage also swings in their favor.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Right, the Second Great Galactic War, the fact this can be abbreviated doesn't change what it is.
Ultimately it's a semantical issue, but at the very least the Great Galactic War did not "start" in Chapter II, merely resumed.

It's been ten years. Neph, I assume, was trying to bring in the Sith Empire from Return, for some reason, but any "pre-war" Sith Empire would be the one in TOR, was my point. the point you're making was never in question, kek.

Even in a galaxy of trillions, a million would be a huge number for a militaric order. Given what we know of the size of the Sith Empire, this is only exasperated.

The quantity we see in SoR is a single acolyte out of groups of ten even surviving to become apprentices. On a good day. Millions will never be accurate. Not to mention Satele talking about how the KoZ, not the Eternal Fleet, are able to overwhelm the legions of Jedi she sent at them, or any Sith they came across. One planets worth of Force Sensitives. There aren't millions of Sith, full stop.

Remember: we only acknowledge bizarre statements if they make SWTOR look better and stronger.

That academy is totally holding millions of Sith. I'm sorry. Billions of Force Sensitives go through it every year.

Millions isn't that big. In a galaxy the size of this, with hundreds of thousands of planets each with millions or billions of inhabitants, Force Sensitivity can be rare as hell and still have millions in an Order.

You're right, of course, Neph. Even though the Galactic government is the largest it's ever been in the PT, and pretty much every Force Sensitive is given to the Jedi, the fact that only 10,000 Jedi Knights exists, and I assume this includes Masters, is because the rate of Force Sensitive births dropped astronomically between TOR and the PT. I mean straight to hell. The Force sensed TOR was over, and knew that no more great Jedi could be born. It's the only thing that makes sense. Also, source for the Sith Empire containing hundreds of thousands of planets?

So salty. I'm deeply aroused by how annoyed this is clearly making you. So, just to clarify, you're perfectly willing to harangue me for supposedly dismissing statements whenever you can, but when you openly do it suddenly it's ok?

I guess the PT is just shit at finding force sensitives.

I'm not salty because I'm mocking you. I just feel if I repeat your idiocy back to you enough, one day you'll realize how retarded it really sounds. And no. The difference between you and I is, I use other sources to critic off handed comments. Not just my thoughts.

And it really isn't, if literally every child is tested at birth. Maybe TOR is just full of shit.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
It's been ten years. Neph, I assume, was trying to bring in the Sith Empire from Return, for some reason, but any "pre-war" Sith Empire would be the one in TOR, was my point. the point you're making was never in question, kek.Hardly pre-war, more like post 30 years of direct conflict and 10 years of proxy conflict. A pre-war Sith Empire would indeed be Return.Because there are only trillions of people in the galaxy? Goodness, you realise there are over 7 billion people on this planet alone? Trillions = population of Coruscant, for the galaxy try quadrillions.
Assuming they all come out of Korriban, but is far more likely Korriban is one of many such academies.

And for the Eternal Empire to conquer the entire galaxy, they'd need at an army at least billions strong.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
And for the Eternal Empire to conquer the entire galaxy, they'd need at an army at least billions strong.

Which are their droids?

I agree, the millions quote is overtrusted and not solid enough evidence. The sourcebook is an in universe one, and it goes against every other era of Star Wars. Hell, even the authors of the book, when contacted, put the Sith order near the tens of thousands, not millions.

I find it amusing how people argue relentlessly about whether the quotes on Sidious being the strongest Sith are valid, that there couldn't possibly be quadrillions of battle droids and it's simply hyperbole... yet fall to their knees and bow at the site of a quote contradicting every Star Wars story ever written.

tbh
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Hardly pre-war, more like post 30 years of direct conflict and 10 years of proxy conflict. A pre-war Sith Empire would indeed be Return.

Stop trying to split hairs. The OP says TOR. We're talking about TOR. Pre-war wasn't even in the OP.

Not only is this not about the population of the galaxy, which is not even fully explored or charted in the slightest, this is about the population of the Sith Empire, which does not even include a noticeable fraction of the known galaxy. It's just a bit of the Outer Rim. Try again.

This is never said or supported anywhere. Every Sith goes to Korriban to be trained, just as every Jedi eventually goes to Tython.

Well considering the entirety of Zakuul's population lives in one city which does not even begin to cover the planet, you'd be disappointed. Billions of their population don't even take part in the military.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I'm not salty because I'm mocking you. I just feel if I repeat your idiocy back to you enough, one day you'll realize how retarded it really sounds. And no. The difference between you and I is, I use other sources to critic off handed comments. Not just my thoughts.

And it really isn't, if literally every child is tested at birth. Maybe TOR is just full of shit.

No no, you're totally right man. I'm certain that you, the Great FreshestSlice, know whats happening in Swtor better than the people making it. Why they didn't seek your vast knowledge out when writing the thing is anyone's guess. Sheer arrogance, I suppose.

Regardless, you're clearly immensely salty and so very, very wrong. Beni already pointed out that the Orders are highly populous in TOR, visibly having more members in more areas than in other eras. There are also clearly many academies at work, the Empire didn't use Korriban to train its Sith for that millennia plus of hiding, lol. Korriban alone is constantly churning out Sith despite its staggering casualty rate. And the number is hardly illogical. There are 8 million people in London alone. Millions of Sith is still paltry compared to galactic civilisation.

How could every child be tested if no-one knew Sidious could use the Force? A case of the whoopsies?

Originally posted by Nephthys
No no, you're totally right man. I'm certain that you, the Great FreshestSlice, know whats happening in Swtor better than the people making it. Why they didn't seek your vast knowledge out when writing the thing is anyone's guess. Sheer arrogance, I suppose.

See Selinal.

Give me a single source in TOR supporting any of this. Even one. I want to see the other academies. I'm still waiting for the source of there being hundreds of thousands of Sith planets, and you've given nothing to back your claims.

Maybe because his very important family didn't want him being kidnapped by the Jedi and forced into chastity. Just maybe.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
tbh

Stop trying to split hairs. The OP says TOR. We're talking about TOR. Pre-war wasn't even in the OP.How is return not TOR? SWTOR would be a more accurate term to what you are referring to.I'm correcting your error buddy, even if the Sith Empire numbered in the trillions or less, millions would still be a drop in the ocean, not even a percentile.Lord Scourge trained on Dromund Kaas... nowhere is it stated to be the only the academy, and this number would suggest more.Then they must be technologically advanced in the extreme, or have a colossal droid army, or have abused their naval advantage, or the forces of the Republic and Empire have been severely diminished. Probably all of the above. Certainly a easily achieved feat of galactic conquest in and of itself is your first logistical problem, not but they had madz Force users.

Originally posted by Selenial
I agree, the millions quote is overtrusted and not solid enough evidence. The sourcebook is an in universe one, and it goes against every other era of Star Wars. Hell, even the authors of the book, when contacted, put the Sith order near the tens of thousands, not millions. Can you provide a quote? That would clear the matter up.Originally posted by Selenial
I find it amusing how people argue relentlessly about whether the quotes on Sidious being the strongest Sith are valid, that there couldn't possibly be quadrillions of battle droids and it's simply hyperbole... yet fall to their knees and bow at the site of a quote contradicting every Star Wars story ever written. Yes, its so terribly amusing when people try to make sense of canon, rather than dismiss the source material as wrong.

Wasn't it just another of Karpyshan's non-answers? Lol.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
See Selenial.

I did. I'm unimpressed.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Give me a single source in TOR supporting any of this. Even one. I want to see the other academies. I'm still waiting for the source of there being hundreds of thousands of Sith planets, and you've given nothing to back your claims.

Sure!

Many Sith spend their lives plotting their ascension to the Council, but with MILLIONS vying for only 12 seats, the competition is cutthroat."

And:

"MILLIONS of the galaxy's most powerful Sith were considered, but ultimately only one would prove worthy to serve the Emperor."

TBH.

Dude, you don't need to see the other academies. Obviously they didn't use Korriban until a few decades before TOR. You think they trained in their backyards with sticks? Lol. Scourge states he trained in an academy on Kaas' City's borders. I don't have exact figures on the Empires size but given that Marr states they were losing something like a dozen systems a day in RotH's, clearly the Empire contains a sizeable amount of territory.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Maybe because his very important family didn't want him being kidnapped by the Jedi and forced into chastity. Just maybe.

So not every child was tested. I win. excellent

Originally posted by Nephthys
Wasn't it just another of Karpyshan's non-answers? Lol.



I did. I'm unimpressed.

Well given Selenial provides sources more than you ever have, which is to say generally never, I believe what she is saying over what you're saying.


Your source for their being "hundreds of thousands of planets" in the Sith Empire.

Yes, which was 300 hundred years ago when the Sith didn't control Korriban. Now, we are told every Sith goes through Korriban, so I'm going to trust that actually in game statement.

Even if they lost 12 systems a day for the year he said they had left, that'd be 4,380. No where near hundreds of thousand. And even if each of those planets had 7 billion people, which I doubt, that'd be a little over 30.6 trillion people in the Sith Empire. To even get a million Sith, let alone millions, the rate of Force Sensitivity would have to be astronomical compared to what it is in any other time period, which is ridiculous to say the least.

Or they just lied.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
And even if each of those planets had 7 billion people, which I doubt, that'd be a little over 30.6 trillion people in the Sith Empire. To even get a million Sith, let alone millions, the rate of Force Sensitivity would have to be astronomical compared to what it is in any other time period, which is ridiculous to say the least. Do you math? I don't and even I know how stupid a claim this is.

10,000 Jedi Knights is the current number, Beni; and the highest the Jedi has likely ever seen. You and Neph can hate that all you want, but it's consistent and in more than one source.

Isn't "you can hate it all you want" kind of our line?

Lmao. You sorely overestimate how invested I am in this argument. I merely believe that millions of Sith is a claim logistically possible.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't have exact figures on the Empires size but given that Marr states they were losing something like a dozen systems a day in RotH's, clearly the Empire contains a sizeable amount of territory.

Quote please. My recollection is losing a handfull of systems to keep the strike team hidden from view...

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I merely believe that millions of Sith is a claim logistically possible.

No it's not.

PT Republic's population >>> TOR Empire's population. So how does it make sense for the SE to have 100x more force users when not only they have a smaller population but they kill failures unlike the jedi?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Can you provide a quote? That would clear the matter up.
mmm

Will have to root through like 6 separate email accounts, but sure, I'll have a look.



Explain to me how dismissing such a fallible source is less canon-preserving than accepting one era out of dozens has an extortionately higher rate of force sensitives for no apparent reason?

To be honest, there is another example we can look to. The Sith Troopers of Krayt's empire supposedly numbered in the millions, but it makes no sense. Krayt was stealing them all from Korriban, yet since the One Sith did not number in the multi-millions, he could not have stolen such a vast number. Furthermore, he telepathically dominates each Sith Trooper, even I would not suggest he can communicate with a million beasts at once. So no one takes the ****ing quote seriously, you two could learn a lesson from that.

Originally posted by Selenial
mmm

Will have to root through like 6 separate email accounts, but sure, I'll have a look.Sounds suspicious. As it's already been said, in the TOR era both Jedi are Sith are visibly more populous. So you are stuck with it either way.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
As it's already been said, in the TOR era both Jedi are Sith are visibly more populous. So you are stuck with it either way.

Depends on your source material. Most of the TOR planets are all huge battlegroud worlds, and we've seen those amounts of force users fighting in both the Legacy era and Clone Wars Era.... The KotOR era too....

Where? The First Battle of Geonosis is the only one that comes to mind, which was probably because it was the only battle in the galaxy at that point which both sides literally fielding everything they had.

However if you look at say the Battle of Umbara or the Second Battle of Geonosis, there are only 3, 4 Jedi on the field. Compared to the scores of Sith present in the Battle of Alderaan, or the 50-man strike team that attacks the Jedi Temple, and the amount of fodder Sith in-game is considerable.

EDIT: In fact now I remember, Palpatine said that dedicating a mere 6 Jedi to the Battle of Geonosis was reckless indicating this was exceptional.

On top of that as a Sith Empire, dark siders were present in every strata of political life, these guys coming out of the woodwork every which place you look.

A potential explanation being that the Sith (and Jedi) were more aggressive in their recruitment during war time. It also stands to reason that due to 99% of the Sith population having pureblood heritage, they had an unnaturally high Force sensitivity.

I can get on board with that, to an extent.

Imagine however that the Sith Empire existed during the Clone Wars. By the number of force users in the galaxy, for simplicity's sake we can say 5,000 of the Jedi would have ended up as Sith instead. What you are suggesting is that blood purity would have increased the number of Force Sensitives not ten fold, not one hundred fold, but at least a thousand times over. That is frankly ludicrous.

I do not dispute that there are more Sith in Vitiate's empire than the Clone Wars Jedi Order, but your mathematics is failing you. We've seen numerous Jedi fight on the battlefield before in one battle. 6 Jedi masters along with knights were committed to Hypori. Assuming there were equal numbers of knights as masters (when realistically there should be more) your mathematics indicates we should have seen a minimum of 12,000 Sith in a battle of that scale.... Right.

Instead, as you rightfully point out, we see one of the most important and galactic war deciding events contain only 50 Sith. We see at most 100 Sith during the battle for Alderaan, one of the largest battles of the war. That does not imply an order being over 1,000 times the size of the Prequel trilogy Jedi, but perhaps 10 times.

Agreed. The last time we had this discussion, I had similar thoughts. Hundreds of thousands of Sith make a lot more sense than millions. Blood purity isn't even as extreme in the Empire as you're making it seem anyway.

The Jedi Order's numbers are unnaturally small given the size of the galaxy.

None of this really matters due to the tech disparity, that and they consider 50,000 troops to be unprecedented for an Army. I suspect they'll shit their pants when they see a Clone Sector Army on their ass.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The Jedi Order's numbers are unnaturally small given the size of the galaxy.
The Outlander drains the entire galaxy of Force Sensitives and ascends to a higher plane.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
None of this really matters due to the tech disparity, that and they consider 50,000 troops to be unprecedented for an Army. I suspect they'll shit their pants when they see a Clone Sector Army on their ass.
No one cares about non-Force sensitives.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
No one cares about non-Force sensitives.

Hmm...this thread obviously does considering that's what this whole battle is of.

You've been the only one to really talk about it across the multi-page debate.

Hell, the KOTOR era Jedi that are killed by the Triumvirate are stated to number in the 10,000s. An order already weakened severely by the Sith War and Civil War. It is made clear the TOR era Jedi are far more expansive than before.

Where was this? The Revan novel?

Because according to pretty much everything else only about 100 Jedi were left.

A hundred is hella generous.

That's how many were left after the Jedi Civil War. By the time of KotOR 2, they were pretty much all wiped out.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Hell, the KOTOR era Jedi that are killed by the Triumvirate are stated to number in the 10,000s. An order already weakened severely by the Sith War and Civil War. It is made clear the TOR era Jedi are far more expansive than before. Yea no. The only quote we have is for Kreia, indicating that "after the Jedi Civil War, barely 100 Jedi exist". Revan's war was more of a jedi purge than Order 66.

Didn't Vandar say they are sending the entire Order to the Battle of Rakata Prime?

I doubt there's more than 50 by the end of the battle.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
The SE doesn't really have much in the way of ships and fighters, their standard fighter and bomber aren't gonna be a real match for an ARC-170 or an ETA-2 Interceptor or whatever other starfighter the Clones have.
Relatively inferior Republic weapon systems held their own against Empire's state-of-the-art weapon systems during the war. Those lasers and missiles are going to destroy you, no matter what. We see a repeat of same story during the Battle of Endor. In the end, it comes down to skills of the personnel involved.

The Empire even developed cloaking technologies to conceal the presence of an entire armada and unleash it upon the 'unsuspecting' enemy (should the need arise).

Shitty storytelling aside, the Empire had everything useful at its disposal.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Their biggest ship is a Dreadnaught which is fine, but the Venator heavily outclasses that in terms of fighter support.
This is true.

Harrower-class dreadnaughts have shields and heavily reinforced hulls.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Now they do have the advantage of super weapons, but it's not as if those can't be destroyed, given that they are all on ships. If the OR can get information and strike forces to destroy them, I have no doubt that the GAR would be able to do the same with their Intelligence branch and SF.
Harrower-class dreadnaughts were superior to anything Republic brought on the table and still suffered losses.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
The thing is though...the standard Sith Warrior seen in the trailer of Hope...aren't that great. Of course they'd have the advantage of melee combat, but it's not as if troopers weren't killing them. Heck one of them got clocked in the face with the butt of a blaster rifle and sent into the ground.

Far as the SE Troops?....Eh, I don't find them really impressive tbh.
They were up against Republic's Havoc Squad - the best of the bunch. Still, they killed many.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The Jedi Order's numbers are unnaturally small given the size of the galaxy.
Another factor is that the Empire represented a martial civilization, lesser in sheer numbers but honed for combat and hardships.

I believe that the Sith outnumbered Jedi during TOR era but the Republic had too many troops to throw at them.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Hell, the KOTOR era Jedi that are killed by the Triumvirate are stated to number in the 10,000s. An order already weakened severely by the Sith War and Civil War. It is made clear the TOR era Jedi are far more expansive than before.

Kreia claimed that 100 Jedi was a fairly generous guess already. I don't know where you're getting 10 000 from.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Kreia claimed that 100 Jedi was a fairly generous guess already. I don't know where you're getting 10 000 from.

Probably the same place as Nomi redirecting Turbolasers.

Was that the one with Avellone's foreword on it or the gloss edition?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Relatively inferior Republic weapon systems held their own against Empire's state-of-the-art weapon systems during the war. Those lasers and missiles are going to destroy you, no matter what. We see a repeat of same story during the Battle of Endor. In the end, it comes down to skills of the personnel involved.

The Empire even developed cloaking technologies to conceal the presence of an entire armada and unleash it upon the 'unsuspecting' enemy (should the need arise).

Shitty storytelling aside, the Empire had everything useful at its disposal.

True it's all the same really, but the ARC-170s have more than just simple laser cannons and are more durable than the Mark VI Supremacy.




Ok so then the GAR shouldn't have any problems destroying them.




A blaster rifle is still a blaster rifle, yeah they were Havoc Squad, but the Sith Warriors just kinda charged into a wall there. That and it's not as if every battle is gonna be an ambush on Sith forces(if they do it's gonna be using their Special Forces too), plus there's still the ground and air advantage the Clones have.

There is the Dread Master's Battle Meditation thing that can easily turn the tide of several battles. I wonder how long it'll take the PT Jedi to pull a Jaric Kaedan on them.

The Dread Masters aren't even free at the beginning of open conflict in TOR

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
The Dread Masters aren't even free at the beginning of open conflict in TOR

Doesn't matter. They can send a strike team of 351982 sith to rescue them

Oh that's right. They'll still have several million Sith to spare to fight those puny 10,000 Jedi.

Originally posted by SunRazer
There is the Dread Master's Battle Meditation thing that can easily turn the tide of several battles. I wonder how long it'll take the PT Jedi to pull a Jaric Kaedan on them.

It'd take a while to find out their location like the TOR Republic did, I'd imagine.