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Fight takes place in the Dark Council Chambers. Imagine it was Savage Opress instead of the Emperor's Wrath II, but otherwise the same setting and circumstances.

The entire Dark Council is watching with great interest.

Round 1 - Baras doesn't have any borrowed powers from Sel-Makor.

Round 2 - Baras does have his borrowed powers.

Baras' borrowed powers may well be a great enough edge.

Edited the OP to divide the fight into two rounds.

Bump.

Baras. He's overall superior and he spams lightning.

Even without amps from Sel-Makor?

Does anyone have a gauge for Baras' saber skill?

I'll go with Savage.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Baras. He's overall superior and he spams lightning.

He's also pretty much featless in terms of bladework and hasn't demonstrated much with the Force, either .

Savage, on the other hand, has very impressive TK, a lot of physical strength usable in combat situations, considerable dueling skills and a lot more feats to his name. He wins.

He was able to fight the Wrath for a long time inconclusively, suggesting he can more than handle Savages melee attacks. Meanwhile he has the undeniable advantage with lightning and plausibly other darkside techniques Savage has no defense against.

Baras stomps both rounds

He presented a challenge to the Hero of Tython counterpart, HoT being Obi-Wan tier pre-Chapter 3.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He was able to fight the Wrath for a long time inconclusively, suggesting he can more than handle Savages melee attacks. Meanwhile he has the undeniable advantage with lightning and plausibly other darkside techniques Savage has no defense against.

Although I believe the Wrath is a respectable and accomplished duelist, there's nothing to suggest his physicality equals that of Savage's beastly strength and melee attacks. Furthermore, the Wrath doesn't appear to be exhausted or injured after his fight against Baras.

Baras would have the advantage with his lightning if this was Season 3 Savage, but after that, he becomes stronger and more skilled, and after being injured by lightning the logical assumption would be that he has learned how to defend against it. Besides, he only gets downed by lightning when he's attacked unexpectedly with it and not in position to defend against it.

Which other dark side techniques?

Savage.

Originally posted by MythLord
Savage.

That your description of the thread or your answer? :P

Originally posted by Syndicate
That your description of the thread or your answer? :P

He's right, though.

Oh not saying I disagree. I actually think Savage takes this as well. Just joking/semi-trolling as is respectable on KMC.

Baras both rounds, stomps second.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Does anyone have a gauge for Baras' saber skill?

Just rough stuff like going toe-to-toe with Wrath II and also training him, which is pretty solid

So is Baras > Anakin, Tond?

Dunno about 1, but LMAO @ Savage winning 2, tbch.

If Sel-Makor rivals or is close to Vitiate in terms of power, Baras does win round 2. Round 1, tho, is Savage's.

Well for one thing, he really doesn't. Secondly, it wouldn't matter if he did. The fact that he received power from Sel Makor doesn't mean it was a significant portion of SM's own strength.

Except that it is. Isn't it assumed Sel-Makor would be possessing Baras? If so, Sel-Makor's entire power would be Baras's. When is it stated or implied that only a portion of SM's power would be granted?

...Do you even know what happened in the Warrior storyline?

Um, yeah? But Sel-Makor has nothing to do with Baras, and this is a hypothetical scenario, so... Why is that relevant?

This isn't a hypothetical scenario. Also, Baras certainly has something to do with Sel Makor; he made a deal with him. He's the one that tricked Vitiate into being trapped by him.

Yeah, but in the storyline Baras never actually borrows Sel-Makor's powers, so Round 2 is indeed hypothetical.

Also, why do you think he wouldn't receive a significant portion of Sel-Makor's strength?

Sel-Makor states in the JK story that he'd given strength to a Sith, greater than Fulminis (and incredible accolade for Baras tbh). Obviously Baras.

That is indeed an excellent accolade, my opinion regarding Baras just rose considerably. Thank you, Neph.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He was able to fight the Wrath for a long time inconclusively, suggesting he can more than handle Savages melee attacks. Meanwhile he has the undeniable advantage with lightning and plausibly other darkside techniques Savage has no defense against.

Originally posted by Petrus
Although I believe the Wrath is a respectable and accomplished duelist, there's nothing to suggest his physicality equals that of Savage's beastly strength and melee attacks. Furthermore, the Wrath doesn't appear to be exhausted or injured after his fight against Baras.
We don't have a canonized portrayal of Sith Warrior at the moment but he could be a juggernaut, capable of launching Jedi in air with his sheer blows. There is even an official footage of such a feat for Sith Warrior class.

Originally posted by Petrus
Baras would have the advantage with his lightning if this was Season 3 Savage, but after that, he becomes stronger and more skilled, and after being injured by lightning the logical assumption would be that he has learned how to defend against it. Besides, he only gets downed by lightning when he's attacked unexpectedly with it and not in position to defend against it.

Which other dark side techniques?
Nothing implies that Savage Opress can successfully deflect an expression of Force Lightning irrespective of its intensity. Should Darth Baras conjure a Force Lightning Storm, it would be the end of Savage.

Was Fulminiss the one who destroyed cities?

According to legends/rumours, seems rather unlikely to me. Also didn't Baras meet with Sel-Malkor well before the SW storyline, so Round 2 is essentially standard/prime-Baras yes?

Originally posted by SunRazer
Was Fulminiss the one who destroyed cities? He's said to, yes.

Neph, how do you know that the Sith who Sel-Makor gives strength to is Baras? Why is this so obvious?


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
We don't have a canonized portrayal of Sith Warrior at the moment but he could be a juggernaut, capable of launching Jedi in air with his sheer blows. There is even an official footage of such a feat for Sith Warrior class.

Sure, but that's still not on par with Savage. Accolades for the Warrior class are not enough to put him above Savage in terms of sheer strength and physical prowess.

The Wrath has never demonstrated the ability to withstand blaster shots like this, for example:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11117/111179633/4625231-savage+uses+force+wave.gif


Savage's physical traits are superior to most characters' we see in the PT, and his TK feats and Force power overall surpass everything the Wrath has accomplished.





When has Baras demonstrated the ability to conjure a Force Storm? Lightning is all we see him do. Opress was electrocuted by Dooku's lightning during the first couple of chapters in which he appears, which means he obviously becomes stronger by Season 5. Not only that, but Savage had never even seen Dooku use lightning before, and was thus pretty unaware of how to block it and oblivious to the fact that Dooku was going to suddenly burst lightning out of his finger tips during their fight. It is obvious that after being injured by it, he would want to learn how to block it.

Originally posted by Petrus
Neph, how do you know that the Sith who Sel-Makor gives strength to is Baras? Why is this so obvious?

Baras is the only Sith we know who visited Sel Makor before Fulminis did. All other Sith went insane upon entering the area.

That would mean that Endgame Baras has been powered up by Sel-Makor, which IMO just makes him less impressive when you consider the Wrath beat him without too much difficulty.

Halfway through the fight one of the dialogue options has the Wrath out of breath and concedes that he might lose.

And another option goes like "I'm holding my own" or something like that. Either way, he proceeds to turn Baras's lightning against him and continues to engage him, and by the end of it, we hear the Wrath's voice and he seems completely fine, without any showings of tiredness, and he goes out without limping or anything, and we know that whenever a soldier/Sith/Jedi is visibly injured, the creators of the game make him/her limp. On the other hand, Baras's voice is that of a desperate, defeated man. It really does not seem the Wrath had the fight of his life, tbh.

Yeah, the Wrath clearly outlasted Baras, weathering all he had until Baras exhausted his power. His reserves were just deeper than even Baras' augmented ones, which I guess he used to replenish himself through the fight.

Baras clearly gave him a tough fight though, given the halfway dialogue. No dialogue option has the Wrath say that he's definitely winning at that point.

He might've given him a tough fight, but not tough enough to actually stress the Wrath to the limit. Which makes Baras unimpressive IMO.

No it doesn't, it just makes the Wrath more impressive than you give him credit for. Consider that Fulminis, who Sel-Makor states Baras is greater than even before the amp, was the premier sorcerer in the Empire who even the Dark Council goes to to learn from, is said to have once obliterated an entire city with a lightning storm and was planning on channeling a planet-wide attack.

Is said by whom? Because Khem also claims Tulak could solo "an army a thousand Jedi strong", which is pretty ridiculous and clearly a hyperbole. If the source isn't reliable, we can't trust it as fact.

Even if true, when we consider Fulminis was particularly gifted with sorcery, it makes a lot of sense to assume that this lightning storm which engulfed a city was a ritual of some kind, rather than an actual combat-applied ability. So, sure, Sel-Makor states Baras is greater than him. Baras being a greater fighter than Fulminis isn't that impressive, considering his specialty were rituals and sorcery and is featless in other aspects.

The codex.

Sel Makor doesn't say Baras was better in combat. He just says he was greater than him all around. Sorcery still draws on someones raw Force strength and the top sorcerer in the Empire, so highly regarded that Vitiate personally entrusted him to help carry out his century-long long plan, would be among the very strongest Sith in the Empire. Baras was greater even without Sel Makor's strength. Theres a reason Baras is called "nigh-invincible" and could cow the Dark Council into accepting his coup.

We've seen people who are great sorcerers and illusionists but not great duelists or fighters, so being a fantastic sorcerer does not mean you are an all-powerful Force-user overall or necessarily well-rounded.

Sel-Makor stating Baras is greater than Fulminis doesn't mean that much, anyway. Traya, at the end of KotoR II also states that Surik is the greatest of her students, and that certainly does not put her above Revan.


In any case, if we power scale, it's noticeable that Baras is a lot of hype and not so much more. Baras < Wrath < Dooku < Revan < Valkorion < Sidious < Luke .

There are a lot of other powerful individuals that could go between the Wrath and Valkorion which would make them superior to the likes of Baras. He has some accolades, but he needs feats to back it up, and he nearly has none and gets his ass handed to him by someone who is inferior to Dooku or Revan.

Bump.

1: Savage, 10/10, stomps.
2: Savage, 10/10.

^lol.

Baras. I'd argue Act 3 Draahg could well be superior to Savage, and he's no Baras.

Draahg would probably own Savage with that disintegration technique.

LOL.

Savage wins.

Bump again.

Baras one-shotting Angral with Lightning is damn good.

1. Maybe Savage
2. Dunno.

Savage