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:9

Feeeeeeats.

I said FEEEEEEEEATS.

CAN YOU HERE ME?!

oh god im just gonna kill myself

Are you smiling because the end is near?

http://static5.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11120/111205740/5186915-9854899327-13hif.gif

At first I was leaning Marka Ragnos because feats don't matter and Marka has all the thematic shit going for him...

But then I realized Rivi shits on Marka as a duelist because she came 5,000 years later and thus her understanding of lightsaber combat would've been super advanced. And while its completely cancerous to judge combative force ability from force feats, judging it from a display of martial prowess is somehow okay, so therefore Rivi shits on Marka in the Force, and with sabers and force under her belt, Rivi should honestly stomp.

http://img2.tvtome.com/i/u/97c29b3e018a4e46cef770449f2c5b74.gif

https://i.imgflip.com/14720r.gif

Seems legit.

One has shit feats, the other has shit hype. Stalemate.

http://i.imgur.com/yaWDBC8.gif

Originally posted by Emperordmb
At first I was leaning Marka Ragnos because feats don't matter and Marka has all the thematic shit going for him...

But then I realized Rivi shits on Marka as a duelist because she came 5,000 years later and thus her understanding of lightsaber combat would've been super advanced. And while its completely cancerous to judge combative force ability from force feats, judging it from a display of martial prowess is somehow okay, so therefore Rivi shits on Marka in the Force, and with sabers and force under her belt, Rivi should honestly stomp. How long do you plan to nurse this butthurt DMB?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
How long do you plan to nurse this butthurt DMB?

Until all of the blood leaks from his anus. Even if it kills him.

Gross Aurbere.

Honestly though it's kinda sad to see DMB continually fail to grasp this argument so I'm gonna help him out. Let's think of this in terms of an analogy, say Formula 1 race cars.

Now a quick Google search tells me that one of the fastest F1 cars of the 1930s was the Alfa Romeo 158, which had a top speed of 180 mph. Nonetheless would it be winning any races against the F1 cars of today? Of course not, because they are considerably more technologically advanced, and have top speeds of well over 200 mph.

So does that also mean that the Honda Jazz sitting in my driveway can beat the Alfa Romeo as well? No, that's absurd, I'd question whether it can even manage 100, let alone 180. The fact that its been built with more advanced tech doesn't change the fact that its a run-of-the-mill economy vehicle, not a race car.

Likewise the fact that the PT era is altogether more advanced in its technique compared to early eras (though not that of the ancient Sith who were themselves extraordinarily advanced in comparison to successive periods) doesn't mean a run-of-the-mill Jedi Knight like Riva Anu is going to be beating the premier duellists of earlier ages. That's equally absurd.

I mean really, do we go around saying that no-name ancient Sith would house the likes of Malak and the HoT cause el33t skillz? No we don't, it's high time this cancer was put to bed.

Beni u so stupid, that's not how Star Wars works. Tho Raskta Lsu > Grievous legit. Math said so.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Gross Aurbere.

Honestly though it's kinda sad to see DMB continually fail to grasp this argument so I'm gonna help him out. Let's think of this in terms of an analogy, say Formula 1 race cars.

Now a quick Google search tells me that one of the fastest F1 cars of the 1930s was the Alfa Romeo 158, which had a top speed of 180 mph. Nonetheless would it be winning any races against the F1 cars of today? Of course not, because they are considerably more technologically advanced, and have top speeds of well over 200 mph.

So does that also mean that the Honda Jazz sitting in my driveway can beat the Alfa Romeo as well? No, that's absurd, I'd question whether it can even manage 100, let alone 180. The fact that its been built with more advanced tech doesn't change the fact that its a run-of-the-mill economy vehicle, not a race car.

Likewise the fact that the PT era is altogether more advanced in its technique compared to early eras (though not that of the ancient Sith who were themselves extraordinarily advanced in comparison to successive periods) doesn't mean a run-of-the-mill Jedi Knight like Riva Anu is going to be beating the premier duellists of earlier ages. That's equally absurd.

I mean really, do we go around saying that no-name ancient Sith would house the likes of Malak and the HoT cause el33t skillz? No we don't, it's high time this cancer was put to bed.
Yeah but it's hardly to the extent that anyone whose a high tier duelist in the PT era has more technical skill than anyone who perfected every move and sequence of lightsaber combat in any prior era.

Like let's not pretend that however many techniques anyone in a previous era could learn and perfect, they'd still be outclassed in technical skill by anyone Plo Koon level and up from the PT era.

DMB still hasn't realized that literally every "master duelist" has perfected techniques in lightsaber combat and developed their own on top of that. And then perfected those techniques. This isn't hard to get, guys...

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Yeah but it's hardly to the extent that anyone whose a high tier duelist in the PT era has more technical skill than anyone who perfected every move and sequence of lightsaber combat in any prior era.

Like let's not pretend that however many techniques anyone in a previous era could learn and perfect, they'd still be outclassed in technical skill by anyone Plo Koon level and up from the PT era. Yes, let's pretend that the premier Council-level duelists of the PT era, many of whom were regarded as some of the greatest duelists in mythos, have not perfected every move and sequence of their respective forms, and refined and developed a personal technique.

Let's pretend this is entirely unique to Kas'im, and because he did it with seven forms that is seven times better than any one of them.

Really I find it laughable how you say "Plo Koon and up" like this is setting the bar low, despite Plo Koon being regarded as among greatest Jedi combatants in history.

@Aurbere Right every master duelist has perfected every move and sequence of all seven forms... Totally. That's absolutely something every master duelist does.

Except it isn't. Perfecting techniques =/= perfecting every technique and sequence of all seven forms

And if this is a level every master level duelist is on, then Kas'im after mastering all seven forms (which would've made him a high level master of multiple forms as Juyo is included in the seven) would've already been on this level, yet he spent decades after that point perfecting every move and sequence to that extent. I mean you're entire argument about every master level duelist having accomplished this level falls flat when it's shown to be considerably beyond someone who mastered all seven forms with a high level mastery of many of them (undoubtedly making him a "master duelist".

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yes, let's pretend that the premier Council-level duelists of the PT era, many of whom were regarded as some of the greatest duelists in mythos, have not perfected every move and sequence of their respective forms, and refined and developed a personal technique.

Let's pretend this is entirely unique to Kas'im, and because he did it with seven forms that is seven times better than any one of them.

Really I find it laughable how you say "Plo Koon and up" like this is setting the bar low, despite Plo Koon being regarded as among greatest Jedi combatants in history.
Please, even some battlemasters, some of the most knowledgeable swordsman in any order, admit they're no where near perfecting every move. And Kas'im was a master of all seven forms and a high level master of many of them before having to spend decades perfecting every move and sequence of said forms. Clearly mastering forms, even to a high level, is not the same as literally perfecting all of its moves and sequences.

And also, it's not just seven times as many forms, many of the sequences blend and combine several forms at once, which pretty substantially increases the number of ways the techniques from even one form can be applied.

Sure Plo Koon is good, but I find it laughable to suggest that he has a greater level of technical mastery than anyone in any era before his own. If that's insane go ahead and laugh.

It's not so much an argument as it is a direct statement. DMB just doesn't like, so he ignores it.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Please, even some battlemasters, some of the most knowledgeable swordsman in any order, admit they're no where near perfecting every move. And Kas'im was a master of all seven forms and a high level master of many of them before having to spend decades perfecting every move and sequence of said forms. Clearly mastering forms, even to a high level, is not the same as literally perfecting all of its moves and sequences.

And also, it's not just seven times as many forms, many of the sequences blend and combine several forms at once, which pretty substantially increases the number of ways the techniques from even one form can be applied.
And these battlemasters, they were regarded as among the best duellists in galactic history yes? Can we have some names?Good? Being among the best in mythos only makes you good? Yikes, it's pretty obvious that the problem here is you hold Koon in very low regard.

@Aurbere Says the person ignoring Kas'im having to spend decades after mastering all seven forms to perfect every move and technique, and ignoring the fact that the battlemasters aren't even necessarily close to that level, to suggest that perfecting every move and sequence is something every master duelist does despite no evidence supporting this and quite a bit of evidence going against it.

Originally posted by Aurbere
DMB still hasn't realized that literally every "master duelist" has perfected techniques in lightsaber combat and developed their own on top of that. And then perfected those techniques. This isn't hard to get, guys... Citation needed.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
And these battlemasters, they were regarded as among the best duellists in galactic history yes? Can we have some names?
I'm afraid I don't have access to my computer at the moment, but I'm sure Aurbere can share this valuable information with you since he's been flaunting some Jedi Past quote for the past week that he apparently doesn't have the balls to post even after being provided with a "Kas'im troll thread" (because he stated he was unwilling to post it otherwise).

And none of you have actually proven that Plo's level of skill means he perfected every move and sequence of Djem So.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Good? Being among the best in mythos only makes you good? Yikes, it's pretty obvious that the problem here is you hold Koon in very low regard.
That was an understatement because I wasn't concerned with finding the most accurate adjective possible. Your adjective nitpicking aside, I have Plo on the upper half of the ROTS council.

And regardless, I find it hard to believe that he has greater technical skill than anyone in any era before his regardless.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
I'm afraid I don't have access to my computer at the moment, but I'm sure Aurbere can share this valuable information with you since he's been flaunting some Jedi Past quote for the past week that he apparently doesn't have the balls to post even after being provided with a "Kas'im troll thread" (because he stated he was unwilling to post it otherwise).I look forward to hearing from you.It's a logical inference considering his standing in mythos, certainly he's achieved a sufficient level of mastery to be in Kas'im's tier, only with more advanced techniques.

On the other hand you yourself have yet to provide evidence that what Kas'im achieved, in any one form, is particularly unique, nor that it puts him at all significantly above those regarded as among the greatest duelists ever.Calm down DMB, not my fault your being dismissive of Koon's abilities.

But OK, bar exceptions such as Exar Kun and the ancient Masters, which duelists do you have a hard time putting Koon above? Or is it just Kas'im?

DMB has to prove Kas'ims ability, but it's a 'logical inference' that Koons abilities are perfect? Lol.

No one who knows anything about swordfighting would ever tell you that a specialist in a single martial art would automatically lose to someone who has mastered several. True, mastering multiple styles does provide the advantage of versatility, and a greater understanding of potentially opposing techniques. These are things to be expected of all fencers described as history's greatest masters, though.

There are more important factors to consider in a duel between high-level masters than number of forms learned. Degree of mastery in application, reaction times, combat experience, inventiveness/unpredictability, physical advantages, strength in the Force, incorporation of Force-based abilities, strategy, etc. etc. It's for these reasons that someone like Cin Drallig, despite being an academic master of several forms, is infinitely inferior to someone like Anakin Skywalker.

And Kas'im is definitely among the best: he does well for himself in a number of categories--some more than others--but judging him to be superior to a number of other reputable masters simply because of the number of styles he's mastered is silly.

Originally posted by Nephthys
DMB has to prove Kas'ims ability, but it's a 'logical inference' that Koons abilities are perfect? Lol. Eh? Having comprehension issues again? I said DMB has yet to prove that what Kas'im achieved is so special as to put him in another league to one of the greatest Jedi combatants ever. Quite different.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
No one who knows anything about swordfighting would ever tell you that a specialist in a single martial art would automatically lose to someone who has mastered several. True, mastering multiple styles does provide the advantage of versatility, and a greater understanding of potentially opposing techniques. These are things to be expected of all fencers described as history's greatest masters, though.

There are more important factors to consider in a duel between high-level masters than number of forms learned. Degree of mastery in application, reaction times, combat experience, inventiveness/unpredictability, physical advantages, strength in the Force, incorporation of Force-based abilities, strategy, etc. etc. It's for these reasons that someone like Cin Drallig, despite being an academic master of several forms, is infinitely inferior to someone like Anakin Skywalker.

And Kas'im is definitely among the best: he does well for himself in a number of categories--some more than others--but judging him to be superior to a number of other reputable masters simply because of the number of styles he's mastered is silly.
Kas'im's level of mastery is a showing of skill regardless, and where I rate him isn't even necessarily dependent on that. I didn't say Kas'im beat Plo because of the number of forms he mastered. I merely said the argument that Plo beats Kas'im because he's a high tier duelist from a later era is unfounded.

@ Newguy

No one does that. When discussing him it's pointed out not only that he mastered so many forms, but that he completely perfected his abilities with them. And that he was pioneering techniques in all of them.

Don't worry, Beni. DMB won this argument for us a few days ago. We win!

As I recall, Kas'im's skills being "perfect" was Bane's subjective opinion on the matter.

Shhhh...

Beni

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Eh? Having comprehension issues again? I said DMB has yet to prove that what Kas'im achieved is so special as to put him in another league to one of the greatest Jedi combatants ever. Quite different. Firstly, he doesn't need to do that. You need to prove that what he did was common. DMB shouldn't be expected to compare Kas'im to everyone in history to prove he's special. Secondly, you're refusing to prove your own point while demanding that he proves his. It's no different.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
As I recall, Kas'im's skills being "perfect" was Bane's subjective opinion on the matter.

Yeah, but Bane is omniscient so...

Originally posted by Aurbere
Don't worry, Beni. DMB won this argument for us a few days ago. We win! http://67.media.tumblr.com/672ea3205a5fe520d50c9c94573a76f7/tumblr_inline_o1k4azhU311qc5y2f_540.jpg

Originally posted by |King Joker|
http://67.media.tumblr.com/672ea3205a5fe520d50c9c94573a76f7/tumblr_inline_o1k4azhU311qc5y2f_540.jpg
Yeah I don't know what the **** they're talking about either.

Originally posted by Aurbere
Beni Come to think of it did Neph ever get around to citing Kas'im inventing thousands of sequences, or did he just take his word for it.

Why do we have to take Bane's opinion on Kas'im's technical knowledge seriously again? This is a guy who had known how to wield a training stick for a few months, and a real lightsaber for a few weeks. He had no clue how to counter jar'kai, for example, while a padawan Anakin felt confident using it against Count Dooku. The only benchmarks he had to compare Kas'im with were fodder trainees - other than that, he only had Kas'im's word. He's not exactly an authority on comparing technical ability, lawl.

Until recently, Kas'im was possibly the single most overrated combatant in the history of Star Wars. People were actually claiming that he could challenge Darth Sidious in a duel. Heck, even Gideon thought this, despite being a verifiable, infallible super-Godgenius to whose honor we all devote ourselves.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Firstly, he doesn't need to do that. You need to prove that what he did was common. DMB shouldn't be expected to compare Kas'im to everyone in history to prove he's special. Secondly, you're refusing to prove your own point while demanding that he proves his. It's no different. Common? Why? We are not discussing common duelists here, we are discussing the very best in history. They are all special. What DMB is suggesting is that Kas'im is super extra special, and yes of that I require some substantive proof.

On the other hand not sure where I refused to prove anything. If you'd like a source on Koon being among the best Jedi combatants in history I can provide it.

Sure, why not.

I have been summoned; it appears HWKN's devotion to me endures.

This is a good thread. Let's see Team Feat Wars battle Team Accolade/Power Scale.

Let me walk you through this, DMB. The quote suggesting Kas'im perfected all styles is merely Bane's opinion. The quote is in the same paragraph as the comment that Kas'im is the best ever, which you conceded on CV to be an indefensible position. Now, you leave yourself with the choice. Is Kas'im's mastery Bane's opinion or an omniscient statement? If the latter, then you must also suggest that Kas'im is the best ever as that conclusion comes from the belief that Kas'im mastered the forms to such a degree. Believing that it's an omniscient statement then puts you in that indefensible position you mentioned a mere 15 hours ago.

So we're left with Bane's subjective opinion. Now the question, how much is a Trainee's opinion worth regarding a subject he hasn't nearly delved into long enough for his opinion to mean anything.

We good? We're good. All wrapped up here.

My Lord, please forgive me for trespassing on Your name. I insulted you, and beg your mercy, though I deserve it not, but for Your infinite grace.

While I understand the need to prostrate yourself before my Glory, do not distract from the entertaining spat we now witness.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Why do we have to take Bane's opinion on Kas'im's technical knowledge seriously again? This is a guy who had known how to wield a training stick for a few months, and a real lightsaber for a few weeks. He had no clue how to counter jar'kai, for example, while a padawan Anakin felt confident using it against Count Dooku. The only benchmarks he had to compare Kas'im with were fodder trainees - other than that, he only had Kas'im's word. He's not exactly an authority on comparing technical ability, lawl.

Until recently, Kas'im was possibly the single most overrated combatant in the history of Star Wars. People were actually claiming that he could challenge Darth Sidious in a duel. Heck, even Gideon thought this, despite being a verifiable, infallible super-Godgenius to whose honor we all devote ourselves. I think its fair to give this remark some consideration, given it has authorial intent behind it. But at the same time as a subjective observation it is potentially hyperbolic, and arguably more intended to give a general idea of how exceptional a duelist he was.

Because really what does perfecting every move and sequence entail? Kas'im seems to have invented a bunch of techniques on his own, and according to PoD, every move he taught his students was his own. So unless we are going to assume that Kas'im taught his students nothing of the basics when it comes to the seven styles, I can only assume that while each form has its bread and butter, that can feasibly translate into an infinite number of sequences and combinations. So its effectively impossible to master every single one. Which makes Bane's claim hyperbole by default.Originally posted by Aurbere
Let me walk you through this, DMB. The quote suggesting Kas'im perfected all styles is merely Bane's opinion. The quote is in the same paragraph as the comment that Kas'im is the best ever, which you conceded on CV to be an indefensible position. Now, you leave yourself with the choice. Is Kas'im's mastery Bane's opinion or an omniscient statement? If the latter, then you must also suggest that Kas'im is the best ever as that conclusion comes from the belief that Kas'im mastered the forms to such a degree. Believing that it's an omniscient statement then puts you in that indefensible position you mentioned a mere 15 hours ago.

So we're left with Bane's subjective opinion. Now the question, how much is a Trainee's opinion worth regarding a subject he hasn't nearly delved into long enough for his opinion to mean anything.

We good? We're good. All wrapped up here. https://media.giphy.com/media/NEvPzZ8bd1V4Y/giphy.gif

I haven't seen Emp actually rumble for a while now. The beatings he hands out are entertaining viewing experience. :3

Originally posted by Nephthys
Sure, why not. I assume you are asking for the quote:

Plo Koon is a member of the Jedi High Council and a Jedi General in the Clone Wars. Koon is one of the most powerful Jedi ever, with awesome fighting ability, strong telekinetic powers and superb piloting skills.

--Star Wars: Character Encyclopedia

And though the quote says most powerful, it does so in the contexts of lightsaber skill as well as Force power and piloting ability.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Firstly, he doesn't need to do that. You need to prove that what he did was common. DMB shouldn't be expected to compare Kas'im to everyone in history to prove he's special. Secondly, you're refusing to prove your own point while demanding that he proves his. It's no different.

Sorry, was the implication that Kas'im was common? I think, rather, the problem here is that you are implying history's greatest masters are "common".

The Bane team is getting shitstomped.

All this aside, what about accolades/power scaling vs feats? I thought we had a consensus: we use whatever we have to to make the pre-movie era look better.

We haven't changed our minds, right?

Is Galen apart of the movie era? That's all that matters.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The Bane team is getting shitstomped.

All this aside, what about accolades/power scaling vs feats? I thought we had a consensus: we use whatever we have to to make the pre-movie era look better.

We haven't changed our minds, right?

Plo Koon can still win a powerscaling/accolades argument.

The obvious answer is that we use a combination of both, depending on how rational and consistent of a model they provide with respect to the overarching narrative and universe.

If our focus is thematic/narrative consistency, we'd lean accolades for their greater alignment with authorial intent - authors are more likely to establish rational power hierarchies than they are to translate that into calibrating feats with every other author to make sure the characters are as powerful as they should be.

If our focus is to suspend disbelief and analyze everything from a strict empirical mindset, we have no choice but to take the feats at face value, or at least attempt to rationalize them.

Originally posted by Aurbere
Plo Koon can still win a powerscaling/accolades argument.

Right but that's precisely the reason why we can't use it. We have to use whatever we can to make the pre-movie era look better, right? I thought that was the consensus?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Right but that's precisely the reason why we can't use it. We have to use whatever we can to make the pre-movie era look better, right? I thought that was the consensus?

It is... But Plo

Originally posted by Aurbere
It is... But Plo

Hey Aurbere. You should know, I think Ventress is one of the most skilled duelists of all time, so Plo's performance against her put him extremely high up in my mind.

Originally posted by Aurbere
Let me walk you through this, DMB. The quote suggesting Kas'im perfected all styles is merely Bane's opinion. The quote is in the same paragraph as the comment that Kas'im is the best ever, which you conceded on CV to be an indefensible position. Now, you leave yourself with the choice. Is Kas'im's mastery Bane's opinion or an omniscient statement? If the latter, then you must also suggest that Kas'im is the best ever as that conclusion comes from the belief that Kas'im mastered the forms to such a degree. Believing that it's an omniscient statement then puts you in that indefensible position you mentioned a mere 15 hours ago.

So we're left with Bane's subjective opinion. Now the question, how much is a Trainee's opinion worth regarding a subject he hasn't nearly delved into long enough for his opinion to mean anything.

We good? We're good. All wrapped up here.
I said Kas'im being the best duelist in history was an indefensible position because the quote itself doesn't definitively state that he is, seeing as the quote said "maybe" with a few duelists before Kas'im that clearly outstrip him. In fact I was using that to explain why the last part of that quote doesn't invalidate the rest of it because it isn't definitively stating a false fact. You'll notice in my statement on CV I defended the other two parts of the statement. Or you would've noticed if you had any noticeable reading comprehension.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Hey Aurbere. You should know, I think Ventress is one of the most skilled duelists of all time, so Plo's performance against her put him extremely high up in my mind.

She is, and you're right. Awesome to hear.

Holy shit everyone is acting like I'm saying Kas'im>Plo just becuz mastery, when all I've been saying for the past several days is that Plo>Kas'im becuz high tier duelist in later era is stupid.

Yeah tbh DMB is winning

Originally posted by Emperordmb
I said Kas'im being the best duelist in history was an indefensible position because the quote itself doesn't definitively state that he is, seeing as the quote said "maybe" with a few duelists before Kas'im that clearly outstrip him. In fact I was using that to explain why the last part of that quote doesn't invalidate the rest of it because it isn't definitively stating a false fact. You'll notice in my statement on CV I defended the other two parts of the statement. Or you would've noticed if you had any noticeable reading comprehension.

So you're cherry-picking to salvage Kas'im's failure. Good to know...

lol, that's been his position for quite a while now. Did you just figure it out? Because the strawmanning here is pretty hilariously inept.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Holy shit everyone is acting like I'm saying Kas'im>Plo just becuz mastery, when all I've been saying for the past several days is that Plo>Kas'im becuz high tier duelist in later era is stupid. What you been saying for the past few days is everyone who can handle a lightsaber in the PT era > everyone else, because you are salty.

EDIT: And now you're strawmanning, Plo Koon doesn't beat Kas'im "becuz high tier duelist", he beats Kas'im because he is among the best duelists in history during the height of lightsaber technique. Goodness.

Originally posted by Aurbere
So you're cherry-picking to salvage Kas'im's failure. Good to know...
I'm not cherry picking. I'm saying that Kas'im being the best duelist in galactic history is wrong because the quote in question doesn't even definitively state it.

I mean holy shit, you're saying that a quote is wrong and that I disproved it by saying that something the quote doesn't even say is factually incorrect.

How ****ing thick can you be Aurbere? Well I bolded and underlined the important part of this for your convenience since apparently you couldn't pick it up from the post I actually said it on, despite me going into depth explaining the reasoning behind it:

"I'm not trying to act like an obscure sentence at the end of the quote saying Kas'im might be the greatest duelist ever means anything, as "perhaps" kinda adds too much ambiguity for it to mean much"

I expected more reading comprehension from someone among "the best of the best" tbh

Originally posted by The Ellimist
lol, that's been his position for quite a while now. Did you just figure it out? Because the strawmanning here is pretty hilariously inept.

No...

What I can't figure out is who's side you're on.

http://blacksportsonline.com/home/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Bosh-Chalmers-argue-noah-claps.gif

Originally posted by Aurbere
No...

What I can't figure out is who's side you're on.

I'm usually on yours, but the anti-DMB crowd is being idiotic.

Originally posted by Emperordmb


How ****ing thick can you be Aurbere?

Very.

Anywho. Addressed already. I win. You lose. Bye bye then.

While I don't have a great love of Bane characters DMB is honestly just a much better debater.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I'm usually on yours, but the anti-DMB crowd is being idiotic.

lol how do you figure?

Also I did a thorough search of PoD and nowhere is it stated that Kas'im invented thousands of techniques. Only that Bane learned almost a hundred under his tutelage. Originally posted by The_Tempest
lol how do you figure? It is a bit of U-turn considering he initially supported this case. mmm

Originally posted by Aurbere
Very.

Anywho. Addressed already. I win. You lose. Bye bye then.
You win... Because I disproved the quote somehow by saying that something the quote doesn't definitively claim is wrong... And you saying you win somehow makes it so?

Wow you are thick and pretentious indeed. And apparently you lack faith in your arguments despite being "the best of the best" based on this pathetic cop-out.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
You win... Because I disproved the quote somehow by saying that something the quote doesn't definitively claim is wrong... And you saying you win somehow makes it so?

Wow you are thick and pretentious indeed. And apparently you lack faith in your arguments despite being "the best of the best" based on this pathetic cop-out.

Focus, DMB. I don't care about Kas'im's quote about being the best. Focus on what comes before. Gosh. This isn't hard.

How do I lack faith in my arguments? Just because I'm at work and don't have time doesn't mean I lack faith lol. Silly.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
lol how do you figure?

Because he isn't actually saying what you guys think he's saying, lmao.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Because he isn't actually saying what you guys think he's saying, lmao.

...I know he's not saying that Kas'im > Plo because Plo is PT lol.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
...I know he's not saying that Kas'im > Plo because Plo is PT lol.

we all know. We're disproving Kas'im's hype.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Because he isn't actually saying what you guys think he's saying, lmao. We are all aware of DMB is arguing Plo Koon's status as PT duelist doesn't put him above Kas'im. But he's effectively doing so on the basis that Kas'im's credentials are so above Plo Koon to negate his era advantage, that itself he hasn't attempted to debunk. Bearing in mind that if that couldn't be proven the case, he'd have no case.

So yeah, he's arguing Kas'im > Plo, whether he thinks so or not.

Regardless, I think the only thing that matters is everything DMB is saying is wrong.

http://i.makeagif.com/media/11-07-2015/QS3wuG.gif

^ A good summary of this thread.

I'm confused by this gif.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
We are all aware of DMB is arguing Plo Koon's status as PT duelist doesn't put him above Kas'im. But he's effectively doing so on the basis that Kas'im's credentials are so above Plo Koon to negate his era advantage, that itself he hasn't attempted to debunk. Bearing in mind that if that couldn't be proven the case, he'd have no case.

So yeah, he's arguing Kas'im > Plo, whether he thinks so or not.

Regardless, I think the only thing that matters is everything DMB is saying is wrong.

Right, so the comparison is whether mastering every sequence and move to every form is enough to compensate for an era disadvantage. It's a legitimate question, albeit one that can't really be resolved here.

DMB still hasn't provided any actual feats for Kas'im that places him above Plo in actual showings.

Plo rapes

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Right, so the comparison is whether mastering every sequence and move to every form is enough to compensate for an era disadvantage. It's a legitimate question, albeit one that can't really be resolved here. Indeed but as I said here that's realistically not even possible:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=15741926#post15741926

And its also unlikely to put you in a tier above one of the greatest duelists in mythos.

I'll start with this to begin with:

Originally posted by NewGuy01
No one who knows anything about swordfighting would ever tell you that a specialist in a single martial art would automatically lose to someone who has mastered several. True, mastering multiple styles does provide the advantage of versatility, and a greater understanding of potentially opposing techniques. These are things to be expected of all fencers described as history's greatest masters, though.

There are more important factors to consider in a duel between high-level masters than number of forms learned. Degree of mastery in application, reaction times, combat experience, inventiveness/unpredictability, physical advantages, strength in the Force, incorporation of Force-based abilities, strategy, etc. etc. It's for these reasons that someone like Cin Drallig, despite being an academic master of several forms, is infinitely inferior to someone like Anakin Skywalker.

And Kas'im is definitely among the best: he does well for himself in a number of categories--some more than others--but judging him to be superior to a number of other reputable masters simply because of the number of styles he's mastered is silly.

As reasonable as this is, it's not quite correct. You forget that the lightsaber forms are much more rock-paper-scissors than standard martial arts. A swordsman who has mastered all of them has a far greater wealth of strengths to draw upon than someone who's only mastered a single style. In comparison to a Djem So master, this swordsman will not only have the strengths to Djem So to bring out, but also the unbeatable defense of Soresu, the finesse of Makashi, the speed of Ataru, the ferocity of Juyo and Niman and Shii-Cho's, uh, things. They can also much more easily cover their weaknesses. He won't have to deal with Soresu's lackluster offense because he can just switch over to Juyo at any point. The master of a single style will only have their chosen style to draw upon, and any inferior ability they have with others.

A master of all won't always beat a master of one, naturally. However, unless the master of one has a large degree of ability in their single style in excess of the master of all's ability in their styles, I'd give the natural advantage to the master of all. They simply have far more strengths, so much greater versatility and less weaknesses. Obviously though, this goes out of the window when you have someone like Bane who could counter everything Kas'im could do (barring you know what) as well as the natural advantage in Force strength. Like you said, duels are decided by much more than techniques learned. Which is pretty much what Dmb has been trying to say as opposed to the "PT wins cuz they're naturally better in techniques" argument of others.

However, in terms of pure skill and lightsaber knowledge, complete mastery of all forms is a stellar attribute that I feel is being underestimated. This is true of Yoda and Sidious as well.

Anyway....

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Common? Why? We are not discussing common duelists here, we are discussing the very best in history. They are all special. What DMB is suggesting is that Kas'im is super extra special, and yes of that I require some substantive proof.

On the other hand not sure where I refused to prove anything. If you'd like a source on Koon being among the best Jedi combatants in history I can provide it.

Aurbere was stating that every "master duelist" has done what Kas'im did, indicating that it's common and nothing special. Clearly when I say common I'm talking about it in the context of the cream of the crop we discuss, though Aubere's tone implies he doesn't agree it needs to be that high level. Dmb responded to Aurbere's point than every master duelist is equivalent to Kas'im's level by pointing out not every master duelist is noted to have reached near the level of refinement and mastery that Kas'im did in all forms. His conclusion that this is a almost unique degree of mastery stands. So unless you're willing to debunk that his accomplishment seems to have been scarcely equaled even among the greatest duelists ever, his case hasn't been beaten yet. It's up to you to show that it isn't special. That no one has yet shown why it is not special, is proof enough that it is. Dmb doesn't have to prove a lack of anyone matching it. That's impossible.

Dmb asked you to prove that Plo Koon's level of mastery is such that he's mastered every aspect of Djem So and you just said that it could be inferred. Which isn't proof.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Because really what does perfecting every move and sequence entail?

It means mastery of every form and then spending decades refining his abilities with every move and sequence. Not hard to figure out.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Kas'im seems to have invented a bunch of techniques on his own, and according to PoD, every move he taught his students was his own. So unless we are going to assume that Kas'im taught his students nothing of the basics when it comes to the seven styles, I can only assume that while each form has its bread and butter, that can feasibly translate into an infinite number of sequences and combinations. So its effectively impossible to master every single one. Which makes Bane's claim hyperbole by default.

I have absolutely no idea how you reached that conclusion, lol. There's obviously a limit to how many effective and viable moves you can do that align with the attributes of the form. Kas'ims techniques are said to be designed to maximise offense while minimising defensive exposure, further restricting the possibilities to the most effective moves and sequences.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Also I did a thorough search of PoD and nowhere is it stated that Kas'im invented thousands of techniques. Only that Bane learned almost a hundred under his tutelage.

This was scarcely into Bane's training when he was focusing on a single form. Logically that single form would include vastly more than he'd learned at that point given how ridiculously more advanced he got. Times that by seven and then again and again considering Kas'im did it with multiple saber styles. Thousands is an easy conclusion.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Until recently, Kas'im was possibly the single most overrated combatant in the history of Star Wars. People were actually claiming that he could challenge Darth Sidious in a duel. Heck, even Gideon thought this, despite being a verifiable, infallible super-Godgenius to whose honor we all devote ourselves.

10 years ago =/= recent.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Sorry, was the implication that Kas'im was common? I think, rather, the problem here is that you are implying history's greatest masters are "common".

Nope, Aurbere implied it on page one. Get dunked.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
At first I was leaning Marka Ragnos because feats don't matter and Marka has all the thematic shit going for him...

But then I realized Rivi shits on Marka as a duelist because she came 5,000 years later and thus her understanding of lightsaber combat would've been super advanced. And while its completely cancerous to judge combative force ability from force feats, judging it from a display of martial prowess is somehow okay, so therefore Rivi shits on Marka in the Force, and with sabers and force under her belt, Rivi should honestly stomp. Damn, you Bane fans have reacted like some kind of venomous, colourful insect flashing neon lights at the thought of FEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEATS being rendered irrelevant.

Anyway, since Bane > Ancients now, Rivi Anu wins since she belongs to a much more advanced generation than Bane, and has better feats than everyone barring Yoda who is better than her, so she stomps.

You make fun of Dmb being butthurt for sarcastically making an era supremacy argument........ and then sarcastically make an era supremacy argument?

Well, it's certainly a novel approach.

You mean because everyone would try and lowball Bane on the basis of feats saying he was shit there becuz nexus, and now that I've countered that argument and proven that Bane has some pretty insane showings, everyone suddenly wants to shift over to the same "speculative lines of though based on unfounded premises+thematic ideas>>>feats" mentality the forcecast tries to use to justify their shitty verdicts?

Shit I'll take it as a compliment that I've countered the anti-Bane arguments to such an extent that people literally have to shift their whole paradigm by which they judge combat ability to keep him ranked low.

No, Neph, it's all about tone. DMB could be talking about the weather right now and his butthurt would still leak through.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You make fun of Dmb being butthurt for sarcastically making an era supremacy argument........ and then sarcastically make an era supremacy argument?

Well, it's certainly a novel approach. I was merely addressing his overwhelming salt in jest.Originally posted by Emperordmb
You mean because everyone would try and lowball Bane on the basis of feats saying he was shit there becuz nexus, and now that I've countered that argument and proven that Bane has some pretty insane showings, everyone suddenly wants to shift over to the same "speculative lines of though based on unfounded premises+thematic ideas>>>feats" mentality the forcecast tries to use to justify their shitty verdicts?

Shit I'll take it as a compliment that I've countered the anti-Bane arguments to such an extent that people literally have to shift their whole paradigm by which they judge combat ability to keep him ranked low. Lawl, the world doesn't revolve around you Dylan. Feats have been redundant for a long time, for me at least.

But again, I understand why you're upset. Bane is a character whose only defining trait is being super awersome and having hella feats. He's literally just feats. Now that you've realized feats are at best inconsistent and at worst laughable as a means of evidence, you're angry.

You should be happy, though. Feats didn't make Bane > Exar Kun and all the other ancients. Accolades did.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
You mean because everyone would try and lowball Bane on the basis of feats saying he was shit there becuz nexus, and now that I've countered that argument and proven that Bane has some pretty insane showings, everyone suddenly wants to shift over to the same "speculative lines of though based on unfounded premises+thematic ideas>>>feats" mentality the forcecast tries to use to justify their shitty verdicts?

Shit I'll take it as a compliment that I've countered the anti-Bane arguments to such an extent that people literally have to shift their whole paradigm by which they judge combat ability to keep him ranked low.

I think you're trying to group two classes of Bane opponents together. Carthage is the one who uses feats; Tempest uses accolades. I use the latter in reality, but troll with the former.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Aurbere was stating that every "master duelist" has done what Kas'im did, indicating that it's common and nothing special. Clearly when I say common I'm talking about it in the context of the cream of the crop we discuss, though Aubere's tone implies he doesn't agree it needs to be that high level. Dmb responded to Aurbere's point than every master duelist is equivalent to Kas'im's level by pointing out not every master duelist is noted to have reached near the level of refinement and mastery that Kas'im did in all forms. His conclusion that this is a almost unique degree of mastery stands. So unless you're willing to debunk that his accomplishment seems to have been scarcely equaled even among the greatest duelists ever, his case hasn't been beaten yet. It's up to you to show that it isn't special. That no one has yet shown why it is not special, is proof enough that it is. Dmb doesn't have to prove a lack of anyone matching it. That's impossible.Except Aurbere didn't say that:Originally posted by Aurbere
DMB still hasn't realized that literally every "master duelist" has perfected techniques in lightsaber combat and developed their own on top of that. And then perfected those techniques. This isn't hard to get, guys... He said that master duelists have perfected techniques, not all, just some, which is a logical conclusion to reach seeing as "perfection" follows on from mastery. And I never said as much either.

So are you telling me DMB has been barking up the wrong tree this how time with you blithely following him? How amusing.

Anyway let me say this, I and nobody else here stated that Kas'im accomplished is nothing special. Merely that its not in any way significantly better than being one of the greatest duelists in mythos, which itself implies a similar level of mastery, or rather enough to outweigh 1,000 years of lightsaber advancement. There is nothing I need prove, rather you and DMB either need to concede the above point, or refute it.

And for the record no, the fact that some yet to be cited battlemasters couldn't do it proves nothing when discussing the best duellists ever.Only because you can't make the inference. You said its obvious, but then didn't say why. Care to correct that fault in your logic? Seems to me that an infinite number of sequences could be created from any one set of moves, certainly an unfathomably large number. But more importantly we've no reason to believe there exists a stock set of "sequences" one must master to perfect the form.It's a conclusion that certainly suits your purposes, but how do we know the styles Bane later learned all came from Kas'im. And why times by 7 then 7 again huh?

Originally posted by ILS
I was merely addressing his overwhelming salt in jest. Lawl, the world doesn't revolve around you Dylan. Feats have been redundant for a long time, for me at least.

Shhh... It actually does revolve around him. Anything regarding Bane is directly related to him personally.

Originally posted by Aurbere
Shhh... It actually does revolve around him. Anything regarding Bane is directly related to him personally. ermaigerd i spent all dis time gatherin bane featz and now featz dun work!? argghHHH!!

Originally posted by ILS
ermaigerd i spent all dis time gatherin bane featz and now featz dun work!? argghHHH!!

Muy frustrating. I feel his pain deep in my soul.

Kek @ the notion that feats are literally irrelevant.

Feats and accolades to typically correlate, but rather imperfectly. What we're trying to do is an accolade/powerscale unto itself, .ie dictating which character is a better combatant or would win in a fight, so if we use feats, it's to guess what the corresponding power-scale/accolade would be.

Well yeah, but feats are still an absolutely vital component, because when debater A is rooting for Darth Vader and debater B is rooting for Darth Jadus, accolades won't cut it on their own.

Well, in that case we can still power-scale by, say, arguing that Vader is closer to Sidious than Jadus is to Vitiate, and that Sidious > Vitiate.

But that doesn't mean feats are irrelevant, you're right.

Except we don't know if Vader is closer to Sidious than Jadus is Vitiate, nor how much ">" Sidious is than Vitiate, (if he even is, lmfao).

So yeah, feats are clearly not irrelevant.

I find while accolades are more concrete, they are far less accurate that feats.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I find while accolades are more concrete, they are far less accurate that feats.

Too late. Ben > Sidious will be a thing now.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Well yeah, but feats are still an absolutely vital component, because when debater A is rooting for Darth Vader and debater B is rooting for Darth Jadus, accolades won't cut it on their own. It's not an answerable question in that case. You can make as reasonable and meticulously designed an argument as you want, but there still won't be a measure that Vader and Jadus both sit on equally other than one we, the fans, give them, e.g HURDUR WHO CAN LIFT HEAVIER SHIT BRAH

IIRC the Antediluvians went by purely accolades and powerscaling, lol.

Well, yeah, and we're using this flawed system right now because it's the best system we have to date. There won't be an accolade or an implication to prove Jadus > Vader or vice versa, and feats are only useful in very particular situations, i.e. when the characters are either written by the same writer or exist within the same era. I can agree with you if people try to pass off feats as a 100% factual reality of a character's abilities relative to another, but to say that people can't use feats at all in any debate when there's, quite frankly, no better solution to date, seems a bit premature.

Now, if you could propose a less flawed, legit better system, then be my guest. But to literally kill star wars discussion under the "feats don't work" clause without another solution? I'll let the rest of the members on kmc and CV decide if that's what they want, kek.

Originally posted by ILS
It's not an answerable question in that case. You can make as reasonable and meticulously designed an argument as you want, but there still won't be a measure that Vader and Jadus both sit on equally other than one we, the fans, give them, e.g HURDUR WHO CAN LIFT HEAVIER SHIT BRAH

God. This post is absolute cancer. I don't care if it's 100% accurate. If we all followed what you're saying debating would be absolutely joyless.

Originally posted by Syndicate
God. This post is absolute cancer. I don't care if it's 100% accurate. If we all followed what you're saying debating would be absolutely joyless. Then do it for the sake of doing it.

Skillz I love you and I bet you're really sexy.

No thanks. I'll do it because it continues to entertain under the current system a majority of the members follow which is a mix of accolades/logic/feats.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Now, if you could propose a less flawed, legit better system, then be my guest. But to literally kill star wars discussion under the "feats don't work" clause without another solution? I'll let the rest of the members on kmc and CV decide if that's what they want, kek. You guys can do wtf you want lol, I just find feat wars laughable now.

Originally posted by Syndicate
No thanks. I'll do it because it continues to entertain under the current system a majority of the members follow which is a mix of accolades/logic/feats. So doing it for the fun of it. Good.

I find Star Wars debating in general laughable tbh. But then again it's as pointless as almost everything else and since I'm still enjoying it for some reason I might as well continue to do it.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Skillz I love you and I bet you're really sexy.

I mean, I could prove it to you, if you want.

Originally posted by ILS
You guys can do wtf you want lol, I just find feat wars laughable now.

It's clearly fake and artificial because the authors aren't coordinating this or anything, but then again, all of this is fake and artificial - most powerscaling is also separate from authorial intent. And if authorial intent were clear, then there wouldn't even be any room for discussion. So it's just different levels of arbitrariness, assuming rationality to a fictional construct that clearly has none.

Originally posted by ILS
You guys can do wtf you want lol, I just find feat wars laughable now.

So basically, you're not going to debate anyone, ever, unless you're playing Devil's Advocate? That's depressing.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
It's clearly fake and artificial because the authors aren't coordinating this or anything, but then again, all of this is fake and artificial - most powerscaling is also separate from authorial intent. And if authorial intent were clear, then there wouldn't even be any room for discussion. So it's just different levels of arbitrariness, assuming rationality to a fictional construct that clearly has none.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
It's clearly fake and artificial because the authors aren't coordinating this or anything, but then again, all of this is fake and artificial - most powerscaling is also separate from authorial intent. And if authorial intent were clear, then there wouldn't even be any room for discussion. So it's just different levels of arbitrariness, assuming rationality to a fictional construct that clearly has none. No disagreements to it being ultimately pointless and artificial, but I do find it fun, and some discussions pique my interest. Just don't expect me to be QQing over Darth Talon vs Ven Zallow anytime soon when really there's no way at all of telling who's better other than preference.

That said, I have no issue discussing feats. It just means I'll be rounding off posts with "X has better feats" rather than "X is better".

Tbh who cares. Dooku has better feats than Maul. So Dooku > Maul. Seems fine.

But is Dooku pickle-pee?

@Beni and Aurbere.

Seeing you two debate is like watching a fight featuring Korra. Fluid like water.

@NewGuy

Your spot on as always bruh.

@theRest

https://m.popkey.co/c4044b/v0WE5.gif

Thanks xtasy. :>