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Can Traya drain Kyp?

FORCe sabers all out

I'm not sure if this is force, or all three.

Either way Kyp should take everything.

Kyp oneshots

I'll say they're even.

Originally posted by Syndicate
I'll say they're even.

How so?

I don't really see it either. Drain is the only thing Traya has that potentially measures up to him. Her TKisnt on Kyp's level nor is her dueling skill.

The old hag gets herself ragdolled. The only thing she has on her side is versatility and knowledge, and drain. 'Bout the only way she can win.

Originally posted by Petrus
How so?

TK'ed 3 CM's of her era in cut content. I believe that's an accurate representation of her abilities.

CMs?

Council members.

Quite frankly, ****ing with dovan basils>****ing with those three twats

Nah.

I don't think it's debatable that Kyp's her better in raw power - by a lot. She can try to mess with his mind or Drain him - she can't really win in any other way.

Kyp is so massively above her in Force power that I don't think her drain would do anything. We're talking Sidious vs. Kit Fisto.

Considering Krayt affected Abeloth with Drain, and the difference between them is much greater than the one here, I think it's unfair to suggest Traya's Drain wouldn't be of effect here.

Sunrazer weeps as Traya joins Bane in the grave

Originally posted by SunRazer
Considering Krayt affected Abeloth with Drain, and the difference between them is much greater than the one here, I think it's unfair to suggest Traya's Drain wouldn't be of effect here.

Krayt was draining Abeloth for like an hour and still couldn't kill her.

Not to mention he had Luke's help restraining her as she was also simultaneously straining herself fighting in multiple places across the galaxy. Traya has no such circumstanced holding back Kyp to help her here.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Krayt was draining Abeloth for like an hour and still couldn't kill her.

I know. But the gap was much, much bigger than it is here. All I'm saying is that it can affect him, not that it'll give her the win.

I'm actually not sure if the gap was bigger. It was hardly full power Abeloth.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I'm actually not sure if the gap was bigger. It was hardly full power Abeloth.

Given that she was still beating Luke, yeah, it's a pretty big gap.

A distracted, not defending Abby who was fighting Luke and having several of hero ther bodies killed across the galaxy got drained(unsuccessfully) by Krayt so that means Traya can insta-drain Kyp Durron before he one-shots her with TK?

Lol at this being anything like Abeloth vs Krayt or Traya getting oneshotted.

Kyp's TK >>> Traya's, tho.

Originally posted by MythLord
A distracted, not defending Abby who was fighting Luke and having several of hero ther bodies killed across the galaxy got drained(unsuccessfully) by Krayt so that

I'm not aware of the ability to "defend" against Drain save for Ulic's technique, which Kyp isn't implied to know at all. Abeloth spreading her power between her bodies doesn't matter when the one from Beyond Shadows was powerful enough to beat Luke/contend with both Luke and Krayt at once.



Read what people say before you start ingesting salt. Nobody said that Traya's Drain would be insta-killing Kyp (I even stated that my argument wasn't that it would let her kill him, just that it would affect him). It's not ludicrous to suggest that her Drain would affect him to a degree, and certainly not more ludicrous than Kyp one-shotting her with TK.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I'm not aware of the ability to "defend" against Drain save for Ulic's technique, which Kyp isn't implied to know at all. Abeloth spreading her power between her bodies doesn't matter when the one from Beyond Shadows was powerful enough to beat Luke/contend with both Luke and Krayt at once.

I'm pretty sure a Force entity like Abeloth would have the ability to defend against Drain, especially when she was getting drained for a prolongued period of time and still didn't go down while notdefending. Abby would've massacred Krayt and wouldn't have had trouble with his Drain if it wasn't for having her power/mind spread out and having Luke there to keep her busy.



> Calls me salty
> Yet is clearly salty

Oh Razor, never change.



If Kyp was going all-out, I'm not seeing anything Traya has TK wise to prevent getting ragdolled like a punk by Durron. I also didn't say Traya draining him is ludicrous, so stop swallowing sodium. I just said using Krayt/Abeloth as an example is ridiculous.

Kyp is more powerful but the question remains, how effectively can he counter her bag of tricks?

Also, Kyp has failed to 'ragdoll' people nowhere near Traya,

I question when Kyp even tried ragdolling peeps near Traya. Even Corran who kept amping himself off of Kyp's attacks got pounded to death by TK.

Originally posted by MythLord
I'm pretty sure a Force entity like Abeloth would have the ability to defend against Drain, especially when she was getting drained for a prolongued period of time and still didn't go down while notdefending. Abby would've massacred Krayt and wouldn't have had trouble with his Drain if it wasn't for having her power/mind spread out and having Luke there to keep her busy.

Being a Force entity doesn't give you inherent defenses against certain techniques. Without Allies, I'm sure you'd say that Abeloth's status as a Force entity would give her the ability to defend against Force nets, but that obviously wasn't the case.

Of course Abeloth would tear Krayt apart. That doesn't mean she was immune to his Drain. My point is that being far more powerful than somebody else doesn't let you ignore their Drain.



Clearly salty over... what? I'm not even arguing that Traya wins, just that her Drain will probably work more than some people are giving it credit for. You're the one who's been riding the anti-Traya counterculture train for the past few months now, and you've demonstrated your saltiness in other threads with blatant misrepresentations of ILS's feat-disregarding policy and the Maul/Dooku-being-after-Bane argument. I have no reason to be fuming over this and I'm presenting my case with nothing more than measured reason and logic. Stop being facetious.



That's a bit like saying Rivi-Anu can ragdoll Obi-Wan since he doesn't have anything TK wise that holds a candle to her capital ship feat, which also comes off as better than any of Maul or Dooku's TK feats and they've ragdolled Obi-Wan.

I think Traya instakilling three Jedi whose collective power was enough to cut Meetra Surik off from the Force against her will makes her (Kreia) powerful enough to not be one-shotted by Kyp.



You're not one to talk about swallowing sodium, considering your post was based around countering an argument that didn't even exist. That sounds like a case of swallowing carcinogenic drugs. Nobody said that Traya would insta-Drain or anything of that nature at all. Your argument was structured around making the idea of Traya insta-Draining him looking ludicrous. All I was saying is that while that is indeed ludicrous, that wasn't my argument at all and the argument I did present isn't ludicrous in any capacity, whereas your one-shotting argument is. You're now trying to save face by not acknowledging your farcically unrelated post before and instead trying to turn the tables on me by calling me salty. That's pitiful, to say the least.

Also, just saying, but sodium by itself isn't salt. And if you do agree with me that Traya's Drain working on him isn't ludicrous, then we're arguing over nothing. Just concede that you made a totally unrelated post before and that we're actually in agreement over this.



It's a pretty drastic argument to use, but that's mostly because it's one of the few examples of somebody successfully Draining a far more powerful opponent. My point is that Kyp being more powerful (even by a large margin) doesn't allow him to ignore Traya's Drain - the argument I've maintained this entire time. And it seems that you're in agreement with that.

Originally posted by MythLord
Kyp's TK >>> Traya's, tho. If Darth Traya Force gripping the Jedi Council Masters simultaneously is canon content then he's really not, telekinetically dominating four powerful masters is an incredibly impressive feat (as is obliterating them with a single attack) and with an application of Force drain she could quite easily turn the tables on Kyp.

We're talking about Masters who are literally featless in an era when there were only few considerably powerful Jedi. We cannot judge Traya's feat correctly because we do not know how powerful these Masters were. Kyp is one of the most powerful Jedi in an era that includes Luke Skywalker, Jacen Solo, Jaina Solo, Kyle Katarn, Corran Horn, etc.

Traya was defeated in combat by Surik. Seriously, if Kyp can resist the drain, Traya has no chance.

Featless? Not really, Kavar with a Force wave floored and incapacitated half a dozen soliders, incapacitate the Exile with a push, and also incapacitated an entire room of people with ease, while Vrook was able to with his own TK incapacitate the Exile (and her party) and later put her in a Force stun. Collectively they could sever her from the Force. Granted we don't know much about Vash and Zez-Kai Ell (though Kai Ell may have launched Hanharr like a hundred meters with a push), but Kavar and Vrook set a good benchmark.

EDIT: Its also possible if not likely that they together telekinetically rebuilt the Jedi Enclave.

And Traya was defeated by Surik in lightsaber combat, without being able to use drain, this is Force only and her Force drain will be absolutely effective against Kyp. We've no reason to believe otherwise.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Kyp is so massively above her in Force power that I don't think her drain would do anything. We're talking Sidious vs. Kit Fisto.

Either you have Traya below Fisto, or Kyp above Sidious, for this analogy to actually make sense.

I could actually believe both given the malignant cancer you've been spouting across these forums recently... A simple dose of bleach once at night could help rapidly solve your obvious problems however

A larger dose could solve it in one night tbh.

Okay, I give you Kavar's dozen soldiers TK feat and the stunning of people in the cantina.

They're good, but I still hold it's not that impressive, certainly not nearly enough to prove they're anywhere near Kyp's level.

As for both Masters' feats against Surik, don't those things happen only if you go dark side? Not sure, though. Could be mistaken. If that's the case, however, I thought we were only taking into account the light side storyline of KotOR II, as it's the one that's official. If we're also considering dark side storyline feats, mid-game Surik still defeats each master individually in combat, and it's not like they tried to drain her or anything, so we can safely assume Surik is above them, and not even end-game Surik.

Telekinetically rebulding the Enclave is an OK feat, but not so much because we don't know the context of it. As far as we know, the three Masters could've TK'd the same stone at the same time and place it where it should be, which would greatly decrease the impressiveness of their individual powers.

As for the drain, I know she wasn't able to use it against Surik, but if the individual Traya is facing is way above her in terms of Force power and abilities, it's not certain that the drain will be as effective. Krayt drained Abeloth for a long period of time and did not manage to actually kill her.

No one's saying they're on Kyp's level, but they're still strong. The whole masters being featless and weak was brought up to simply make Traya's feat something accomplishable by any of the major Sith Lords, when it really shouldn't be. It stands to reason that the person with arguably the best Sense feats in the mythos should have strong showings in the other categories of force power too...

Lack of exploration isn't lack of strength, tbh. It amuses me how people are fine applying that logic to ancient Sith but not anywhere else

Petrus, I'm seeing a pattern of you deciding that someone isn't impressive, then someone providing you with impressive feats/accolades for them and you going "well ok I give you that but they're still not impressive". Which makes for a pretty pointless discussion.

Considering I still don't think those feats/accolades from the Masters are very impressive, my argument pretty much stands. I was actually very much aware of the feats Beni provided, but I honestly did not consider them good enough, at least not on this versus.
I assure you, if this was Council Masters vs. Someone Who I Rank On A Similar Level, I would've made use of those feats, as well.

There's frankly no pattern.

Originally posted by Selenial
No one's saying they're on Kyp's level, but they're still strong. The whole masters being featless and weak was brought up to simply make Traya's feat something accomplishable by any of the major Sith Lords, when it really shouldn't be. It stands to reason that the person with arguably the best Sense feats in the mythos should have strong showings in the other categories of force power too...

Well, the thing is, I honestly didn't consider their dark side storyline feats, and their light side storyline feats are a bit less impressive. If we do take it into account, we also have to consider the CM's were beaten by a mid-game Surik who still was not in her prime. That reduces their standing considerably.

It wasn't my intention to say Traya's feat can be replicated by some average, random Sith Lord. So, if that's the idea I communicated, I apologize. I actually rank Traya quite highly in terms of Force power, but I do not believe she's on par with Kyp.

An exile who is essentially Darth Nihilus. I'm not entirely sure why being beat by her is a bad thing?

As Beni's noted in the past as well, they force the Exile into stasis if she takes the non-Dark-Side resistance path as well.

Originally posted by Selenial
An exile who is essentially Darth Nihilus. I'm not entirely sure why being beat by her is a bad thing?

As Beni's noted in the past as well, they force the Exile into stasis if she takes the non-Dark-Side resistance path as well.

Was this inside the Onderon cantina? I played the game like a week ago. If this happened, I honestly missed it. I thought he just stunned the soldiers.

Being beat by her isn't a bad thing at all, but the Exile is quite below Kyp, and the fact that the Exile beat those Masters without being in her prime, makes the Masters less impressive.

Traya managing to drain and grip individuals who are far less powerful than Kyp is not a good enough argument. Nothing suggests she would be able to do the same thing to someone who is above her in terms of Force power and combat skills.

Aww shucks, I liked you, Sel. But it turns out you are just as unnecessarily hostile and intellectually unclean as the lower Neph-ilk. I will have to purge you in fire, Gideon-willing. With Gideon as my ally, I will do what I must.

Originally posted by Selenial
Either you have Traya below Fisto, or Kyp above Sidious, for this analogy to actually make sense.


In terms of raw power? I do have Fisto above Traya, and I would entertain Kyp being Palpatine tier, seeing as how he replicates Luke's dovan basal feat with greater ease than Skywalker himself, who believed that Kyp rivaled him in potential. But of course, you obviously have a Neph-tier understanding of how analogies work, since the absolute magnitude of the disparity between the two doesn't have to be equivalent for them to convey an argument - presumably you, using a similar figure of speech, do not actually think that my posts cause cancer, but you thought to be clever to say as such, yes? Does my pointing out the biological impossibility of a literal interpretation of your prose discount your accusation? Nah. You being a moron sort of does, but that's different.

Originally posted by Selenial
No one's saying they're on Kyp's level, but they're still strong. The whole masters being featless and weak was brought up to simply make Traya's feat something accomplishable by any of the major Sith Lords, when it really shouldn't be. It stands to reason that the person with arguably the best Sense feats in the mythos should have strong showings in the other categories of force power too...

Lack of exploration isn't lack of strength, tbh. It amuses me how people are fine applying that logic to ancient Sith but not anywhere else

Lmao. What kind of an argument is this supposed to be? They're "still strong" - what does this mean? How strong? How do you know that being able to drain them casually translates into being able to drain Kyp in any realistic timeframe? How did you quantify this? What was your algorithm/argument? And just pointing out that a lack of feats does not imply weakness means nothing when the burden of proof is on you.



Let's make it clear. In order to demonstrate that Traya's drain would work on Kyp, you'd have to establish some level of parity between them. Otherwise drains are useless; Krayt was able to harm a weakened Abeloth with Force drain...after doing it continuously for like an hour. Do you think Traya could just walk up to Vitiate and drain him? Of course not, or any sith in his empire who learned the technique could've just killed him on a whim. It's stated and implied multiple times throughout the mythos that a significant amount of Force reserves and willpower can be generalized to counter any Force attack, and you've yet to demonstrate that drain is any different.

How do we know that the Force disparity is significant? Well, firstly, powerscaling - Traya admits that she's nothing next to ancient Sith, whereas Kyp's raw power is stated multiple times to rival Vader's and even Luke's. Traya furthermore can't defeat the Exile on a nexus, and the Exile is nothing next to Revan, who isn't very much next to Vitiate, who is weaker than Luke, who is stronger than Kyp by a much smaller margin than that massive chain from Vitiate down to Traya. For another, we can look at feats - when has Traya ever done anything to match Kyp's using a freighter as a telekinetic projectile, or manipulating f*cking singularities? Nothing, I see. You just have her killing a few featless Jedi masters and then putting the burden of proof on us to establish that they're not strong enough for this to matter. Brilliant debating tactics at work there.

And if the drain doesn't work, Kyp can ragdoll her. Even if it's break even and neither can hurt the other through that medium, Traya's dueling feats are...oops, what exactly? Levitating a few lightsabers? Kyp, meanwhile, is put by Luke in the same tier as Kyle Katarn as a duelist. He eviscerates her up close, from a distance, blindfolded, and drunk.

Basically:

Originally posted by Petrus
Traya managing to drain and grip individuals who are far less powerful than Kyp is not a good enough argument. Nothing suggests she would be able to do the same thing to someone who is above her in terms of Force power and combat skills.

Originally posted by Petrus
Okay, I give you Kavar's dozen soldiers TK feat and the stunning of people in the cantina.

They're good, but I still hold it's not that impressive, certainly not nearly enough to prove they're anywhere near Kyp's level.

As for both Masters' feats against Surik, don't those things happen only if you go dark side? Not sure, though. Could be mistaken. If that's the case, however, I thought we were only taking into account the light side storyline of KotOR II, as it's the one that's official. If we're also considering dark side storyline feats, mid-game Surik still defeats each master individually in combat, and it's not like they tried to drain her or anything, so we can safely assume Surik is above them, and not even end-game Surik.

Telekinetically rebulding the Enclave is an OK feat, but not so much because we don't know the context of it. As far as we know, the three Masters could've TK'd the same stone at the same time and place it where it should be, which would greatly decrease the impressiveness of their individual powers.

As for the drain, I know she wasn't able to use it against Surik, but if the individual Traya is facing is way above her in terms of Force power and abilities, it's not certain that the drain will be as effective. Krayt drained Abeloth for a long period of time and did not manage to actually kill her. Lol if they were anywhere near Kyp's level this would be a ROFLstomp.

That was never my argument, merely that they are very powerful, and certainly not featless. Instead these feats are easily in league with the likes of Ventress and Kenobi. Kreia's ability to dominate them all at once is therefore a very impressive display of telekinesis, and one that in that realm Kyp frankly hasn't matched. One-shotting them with drain being a level of offensive ability Kyp simply does not possess.

Some of those feats are from the DS path, but I don't see why that would make them inaccurate, and they are generally deemed as valid on these boards. And yes Meetra is stronger than then but that doesn't change the fact they are powerful enough to incapacitate her, in both the LS & DS paths. I'd infer that they are evidently more masterful in the Force, she also needed help to take them down.

Also Abeloth was significantly weakened by Krayt's drain, despite her being infinitely more powerful than him, so I'd say that example rather works against you.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
How do we know that the Force disparity is significant? Well, firstly, powerscaling - Traya admits that she's nothing next to ancient SithWhere exactly?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Where exactly?

"If you were to face an ancient Sith Lord in combat, you would realize we are like children playing with toys compared to them".

Something along those lines, I'm paraphrasing. She says that when you visit Korriban.



I'll reply to your answer in a bit.

Assuming that it his source, I find it rather dubious to assume that applies to Force powers then the contexts of the discussion are explicitly saber skill.

It was, although Force ability is kind of related. Wasn't it said somewhere that Nihilus's drain was inferior to that of the ancients? Ant claimed as much.

I honestly don't know what to make of that statement, tbh. It doesn't make a lot of sense. It would mean Hord, Ragnos, Sadow, etc >>>> almost anyone in terms of saber skill/power, especially if a skilled individual like Surik is like "a child playing with toys" compared to them.

Well, yeah......

Originally posted by The Ellimist
It was, although Force ability is kind of related. Wasn't it said somewhere that Nihilus's drain was inferior to that of the ancients? Ant claimed as much.

They never used it, for fear of losing their identities.

Originally posted by Petrus
I honestly don't know what to make of that statement, tbh. It doesn't make a lot of sense. It would mean Hord, Ragnos, Sadow, etc >>>> almost anyone in terms of saber skill/power, especially if a skilled individual like Surik is like "a child playing with toys" compared to them.

Or the gap between Surik and the top tiers of the mythos is incredibly large.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
It was, although Force ability is kind of related. Wasn't it said somewhere that Nihilus's drain was inferior to that of the ancients? Ant claimed as much.

According to Traya, he is just about rivalling them.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Or the gap between Surik and the top tiers of the mythos is incredibly large.

Unlikely. Considering her feats and her accolades I find that hard to believe. I seriously doubt someone like Kenobi or slightly-above him >>>> Surik.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
It was, although Force ability is kind of related. Wasn't it said somewhere that Nihilus's drain was inferior to that of the ancients? Ant claimed as much. Kreia said he "may even rival the ancients" in that regard, but seeing as it took Vitiate, probably one of, if not the, most premier sorcerers in the ancient Sith Empire, a ten day ritual and 8,000 helpers to drain a single planet, we can infer she's either wrong, or referring to mastery rather than sheer power.

And not if we infer her to mean technical skill, "children playing with toys" to me indicates not so much weakness but crude simplicity, indicating those of the present day would be simply baffled by their technique.Originally posted by Petrus
Unlikely. Considering her feats and her accolades I find that hard to believe. I seriously doubt someone like Kenobi or slightly-above him >>>> Surik. Smart man.

Originally posted by Selenial
According to Traya, he is just about rivalling them.

And Nihilus is obviously vastly more powerful than Traya, while the "ancients" were quite noticeably weaker than Palpatine. It doesn't matter how you powerscale, you can't get to the conclusion that Traya and Kyp are anywhere near one another in ability. Not when Kyp seriously replicates the singularity feat with greater ease than Luke does, while Traya is nothing next to a guy who is nothing next to a guy who is nothing next to Palpatine.

Originally posted by Petrus
Unlikely. Considering her feats and her accolades I find that hard to believe. I seriously doubt someone like Kenobi or slightly-above him >>>> Surik.

Surik is probably weaker than Nyriss even when we consider the circumstances of their encounter. Nyriss is nothing next to Revan, who is not a whole lot next to Vitiate, who is noticeably weaker than Palpatine. Kyp, meanwhile, has more than a few sources fancying him to be Luke's rival in raw Force power. The disparity between the two is pretty ludicrous.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Kreia said he "may even rival the ancients" in that regard, but seeing as it took Vitiate, probably one of, if not the, most premier sorcerers in the ancient Sith Empire, a ten day ritual and 8,000 helpers to drain a single planet, we can infer she's either wrong, or referring to mastery rather than sheer power.


Pre-Nathema Vitiate isn't necessarily that powerful, and he wasn't just trying to drain a planet, he was trying to absorb its life force and make himself immortal.



Maybe. It's still telling that Traya admits she's much weaker than Nihilus, and yet Nihilus's specialty is only on par with the analogous abilities of ancient sith. Even if we assume she's just talking out of her ass, she's still so far below Vitiate by several massive power gaps it's tough to see her being close enough to Durron for her drain to matter.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Pre-Nathema Vitiate isn't necessarily that powerful, and he wasn't just trying to drain a planet, he was trying to absorb its life force and make himself immortal.He was powerful enough to rally 8,000 Sith to his cause and then proceed to mentally enslave all them. And Nihilus drained planets to absorb their life force and sustain his existence, same difference. This of course being the only record of planetary drain we have from the period, and is treated as such by the succeeding Sith Empire.

EDIT: In fact, Nyriss describes it as "the most complex ritual of Sith sorcery ever attempted."

We should also remember that Obsidian's KOTOR III planned to envision the Sith (and I believe Revan) as much stronger than they've been prior and since depicted.Of course it actually isn't, and in truth Nihilus would humble most ancient Sith, and be a match for it's best.

As for her being far beneath Vitiate, newsflash, so is Kyp Durron.

Vitiate's Nathema ritual was a one-time event that made him biologically immortal. It's clearly beyond Nihilus's, which only nourish him temporarily, and hardly have the same effect of removing color/the Force itself.

As for there being no documented planetary drains, I have never heard of that. I know that Sith like Exar Kun were able to enslave and drain off of planetary populations at their leisure. Regardless, it is true that we don't really witness the ancient siths' drains, so I'm basing that point on good faith of Traya's honesty and knowledge, so whatever.

Originally posted by Beniboybling

As for her being far beneath Vitiate, newsflash, so is Kyp Durron.

Nah. Multiple sources allude to Kyp rivaling Luke in raw power, to the point where he replicates Luke's singularity feats with less difficulty. Traya can get beaten by someone who can get beaten by someone who gets oneshotted by someone who gets oneshotted by Vitiate who is substantially weaker than Luke. The power chain is enormous.

That's powerscaling. Feats don't work for Traya much better - killing three featless Jedi is the most she has, while Kyp has tossed around freighters like toys and manipulated black holes. Traya simply isn't on his level.

This was edited in after my post: I don't think the vision for KOTORIII really matters. It isn't compatible with what ends up happening.

Kek, Kyp ain't rivaling even Vader let alone Luke.

His feats and accolades tell us otherwise. He can ragdoll freighters and manipulate black holes easier than Luke could, and Luke himself thinks he's his rival.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Vitiate's Nathema ritual was a one-time event that made him biologically immortal. It's clearly beyond Nihilus's, which only nourish him temporarily, and hardly have the same effect of removing color/the Force itself.

As for there being no documented planetary drains, I have never heard of that. I know that Sith like Exar Kun were able to enslave and drain off of planetary populations at their leisure. Regardless, it is true that we don't really witness the ancient siths' drains, so I'm basing that point on good faith of Traya's honesty and knowledge, so whatever.Difference between Nihilus and Vitiate was that the former was infected by a wound in the Force that was slowly eating away his life force, hence why his consumption failed to given him any measure of stability or immortality.

And exactly, you haven't heard of any. Despite us being largely aware of the most powerful contenders among the ancient Sith, and their relevant displays of power, none of them have been attributed with planetary drain.

Instead what Vitiate accomplished is said to be the most complex ritual ever performed, and is rendered taboo to speak of as if it would incite some kind of mass panic. You'd think if anyone else had achieved such a thing we'd have heard of it.One being Kyp's biased opinion, the other being a dubious writing of Luke's feat as taking a greater toll on him, despite that implying Kyp has a level of power he no where demonstrates in the trilogy, that would put him well above Caedus, and would render him incapable of being challenged by a young Jaina. Hardly accurate assessment of Kyp's standing, more like one of many discrepancies between the books.Fixed, and goodness they aren't all featless. I listed many of their feats on the past page, and Nova has made a good respect thread here:

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/shootingnova/blog/vrook-kavar-and-zez-kai-ell-respect-thread/97853/

What Traya has accomplished is better than anything Kyp's done in a combat situation and against another Force user. Educate yourself. Originally posted by The Ellimist
This was edited in after my post: I don't think the vision for KOTORIII really matters. It isn't compatible with what ends up happening. Exactly, Traya's assertions are a reflection of a continuity that never happened, hence we must align her claims with the less impressive reality. Which is certainly not what you claim it to be.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Surik is probably weaker than Nyriss even when we consider the circumstances of their encounter. Nyriss is nothing next to Revan, who is not a whole lot next to Vitiate, who is noticeably weaker than Palpatine. Kyp, meanwhile, has more than a few sources fancying him to be Luke's rival in raw Force power. The disparity between the two is pretty ludicrous.

You think people like Kenobi, Ventress, Ahsoka, Maul, Fisto, or Gallia are miles above Surik and/or Traya?

Examples like that one are exactly why power-scaling doesn't always make sense. There's no way those guys are so far above those two. I agree that most of them are superior to the pair, but not by miles and miles.


Originally posted by Beniboybling
Kreia said he "may even rival the ancients" in that regard, but seeing as it took Vitiate, probably one of, if not the, most premier sorcerers in the ancient Sith Empire, a ten day ritual and 8,000 helpers to drain a single planet, we can infer she's either wrong, or referring to mastery rather than sheer power.

And not if we infer her to mean technical skill, "children playing with toys" to me indicates not so much weakness but crude simplicity, indicating those of the present day would be simply baffled by their technique.

This makes much more sense, tbh.

Anyway, I'll reply now, Beni.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Lol if they were anywhere near Kyp's level this would be a ROFLstomp.

True.



We still have to consider the validity of the cut content where Traya TK's the four CMs. For now, we have Traya draining the three as, by far, her best feat. It's safe to assume that neither of these masters had any knowledge as to how to counter the drain. The masters not being anywhere near Kyp is what makes Traya's feats against them rather moot. It's obvious that she can perform such feats against opponents far weaker than Kyp. Although most of Kyp's TK feats don't happen against Force-users, his dovin basal feat alone > what Traya did against those masters. And even if not, he still has other considerable TK feats.



Oh. Well, good to know that they are deemed valid around here, then.

Tbf, when Kavar stuns her , her defenses weren't even up, and she was not expecting it. They were conversing and it was a sudden move by him, so I wouldn't dig much into that feat. We don't know if Kavar would've been able to stun her if she had her Force defenses up. As for Vrook incapacitating her, again, this was not prime Surik. This was mid/early-game Surik, and she still managed to defeat him. Incapacitating someone who is beginning/is in-the-middle-of regaining her connection to the Force isn't that impressive IMO.

Also, she didn't need help to take Vrook down. In the dark side storyline, you take him down without the aid of your companions.



Yes, but the context and the circumstances were quite different. Krayt drains Abeloth for roughly an hour. During a battle/duel, Traya would not be able to drain Kyp for as much time, and it certainly would not be easier for her to keep draining him as he attempts to fight her.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Difference between Nihilus and Vitiate was that the former was infected by a wound in the Force that was slowly eating away his life force, hence why his consumption failed to given him any measure of stability or immortality.


Vitiate's ritual is still clearly more destructive; it made him exponentially more powerful, removed the Force and color itself from Nathema, etc. The Exile was well aware of Nihilus's deeds yet still got incredibly ill from touching foot on the planet.



All of this demonstrates is that there's no corroboration of Traya's claim. Regardless, I don't see a reason to think that Traya's assertion doesn't constitute valid evidence unto itself, seeing as how she was a scholar of sorts and had no clear incentive to downplay her own abilities relative to other sith, lol.



Why are you calling it dubious? It happened, didn't it? It corroborates Luke's own opinions of Kyp's potential way back in Jedi Academy, and the "biased" opinion Kyp had just espoused.



Why would it put him above Caedus? Mid-NJO Luke isn't necessarily LotF or even TUF Luke.

Granted, I don't think Kyp is overall a superior Force user to NJO Luke - Luke seems to be out of practice/holding back until The Unifying Force. But that wasn't my point - my point was that this gap between Luke and Kyp is far smaller than the gap between Traya and Vitiate, which is absolutely craptastic.



These are...not very impressive.



Why are you artificially limiting feats to demonstrations against other combatants? Telekinesis is still telekinesis, and Kyp's is clearly so far beyond anything Traya has done he can probably crush her defenses and choke her to death outright. Where do you address his two major telekinesis feats again?



Uh, no, her assertions occur in KotOR II, lol. And the "new" continuity doesn't help your case, because it clearly puts Traya waaaaaaay below a Vitiate who isn't really that close to Luke.

Originally posted by Petrus
You think people like Kenobi, Ventress, Ahsoka, Maul, Fisto, or Gallia are miles above Surik and/or Traya?


I don't see what this has to do with comparing her to Kyp, seeing as how none of those characters are really close to him, but I do think that all of them would beat Traya if we ignore the drain, yes. I don't think they're miles above her, but tbh they're probably below Kun/Ragnos.



Then what should we use instead? Feats? What does Traya have in that category, exactly?

Originally posted by Petrus
We still have to consider the validity of the cut content where Traya TK's the four CMs. For now, we have Traya draining the three as, by far, her best feat. It's safe to assume that neither of these masters had any knowledge as to how to counter the drain. The masters not being anywhere near Kyp is what makes Traya's feats against them rather moot. It's obvious that she can perform such feats against opponents far weaker than Kyp. Although most of Kyp's TK feats don't happen against Force-users, his dovin basal feat alone > what Traya did against those masters. And even if not, he still has other considerable TK feats.Cut-content has been endorsed by Obsidian and Lucasfilm, however I admit I'm not 100% sure it's not fan made, and in this case it actually contradicts what happened instead of embellishing on it. Regardless as far as offensive ability goes, one-shotting three to four powerful CMs well exceeds Kyp's offense ability, and should be considered of considerable threat to him if she executes it successfully. It could also cripple his potential to exert a telekinetic edge over her.

And Kyp's dovin basal feat was achieved through extreme exertion, it's hardly combat applicable and really there are no instances of Kyp applying TK to such a magnitude in combat, so we can't assume he'd be quite as potent.True but she's still fairly powerful at that stage, and I meant in the sense that Kreia telepathically aids you in uncovering and exploiting their stylistic weaknesses.
I'd like to see a source for it being an hour, since time is said to flow incomprehensibly in the Beyond Shadows. Not that it matters as again Abeloth is infinitely more powerful than Krayt, the same is not true for Kyp in regards to Traya.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Vitiate's ritual is still clearly more destructive; it made him exponentially more powerful, removed the Force and color itself from Nathema, etc. The Exile was well aware of Nihilus's deeds yet still got incredibly ill from touching foot on the planet.An assertion you make despite having no means of concluding whether Nihilus drained the colour from his targets or not, despite Meetra never visiting a world he drained (awareness =/= experience), and despite Nihilus' drain destroying structures where Vitiate's did not.

Care to review your assessment?Which works against the statements accuracy, and as I said either she is wrong or she is referring to mastery and refinement of the technique for example rather than raw power.
Because it fails to align with the rest of the material? And what opinion? Luke only surmised that he could be stronger than Vader if he went dark side, not stronger than himself.

I mean if that were the case, why on earth was he not good enough to instantly restore Exar Kun to full strength? Certainly doesn't fit your theory of him being "feeble" in comparison.

All it aligns with is Kyp's own arrogant and delusional assertions.Because only 15 years later, Luke shat on Caedus like no Force user has shat on anyone than before. Unless we are to infer an absolute colossal power growth over that period, Kyp > Caedus, and certainly Jacen. Which is, to amend your phrase, absolute crap. Lol, OK.
Because these do not always correlate? See Vaylin getting trashed by Senya. Or Ventress' TK being stronger than CW Anakin's. Especially with Jedi, they are not always as great in combat.
Right, not sure you quite comprehended that. Oh well.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
An assertion you make despite having no means of concluding whether Nihilus drained the colour from his targets or not, despite Meetra never visiting a world he drained (awareness =/= experience), and despite Nihilus' drain destroying structures where Vitiate's did not.


Pretty sure it's been clarified that Nihilus used orbital bombardment to destroy structures. As for whether it removed color...like, someone would have pointed that out. Meetra had heard of Nihilus and was utterly shocked by what she saw on Nathema, as if nobody bothered to tell her about the bizarre physics defying phenomenon of Nihilus's targets.

The Exile wasn't affected by Nihilus directly draining her, and yet just stepping foot on Nathema a thousand years afterwards made her physically ill.



Nah.



Ok, and why wouldn't mastery or refinement be relevant to gauging their overall combative prowess. This technique is Nihilus's specialty.



Nah, that was a third person statement regarding Vader, which by the way would kind of kill this debate, so thanks for bringing it up. Luke said:

http://static2.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/12/124590/5038767-9181590801-50361.jpg

Indeed, the entire point of Kyp's character was that he was a monstrously powerful prodigy who posed a legitimate threat to Luke after just a few weeks and some amping from Kun. It's hardly some one-off comment of Luke's:



Of course, my best was nothing compared to Kyp Durron's best. Kyp's growth in the Force was nothing shy of incredible. In just over a week he surpassed anything the rest of us where doing by light-years. Master Skywalker didn't know what to do with him, he was so good. Kyp gave us hope that reestablishing the Jedi Order could be and would be done.
- I, Jedi

He thought about those he had trained: Kyp, so intense and so frighteningly powerful.

- Planet of Twilight

This is hardly an outlier, and can't be dismissed on face.



Because he had a week of training?



15 years is a pretty long time, lmao.

Essentially you're trying to dismiss Kyp's most iconic feat not by examining how it isn't impressive, but by just...doing what? Asserting that it never happened? Was it an illusion or something?



Funny, Luke seems to think otherwise, seeing as how he viewed a dark side Kyp as a serious threat. But if you want to talk about powerscaling instead, you get nowhere aside from noticing that Traya is so far below Vitiate it's kind of comical.



Tru, I forgot that you can literally dismiss a feat by appealing to your own personal incredulity.

I will take Selenial's concession in stride.

Beni, given that you've firmly established the telekinetic prowess of Traya, what do you take from this:





It at the very least suggests Surik is capable of stifling Traya's control of the lightsabers imo.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I will take Selenial's concession in stride.

You said you had Fisto above Traya, power wise.

I suddenly stopped giving a shit about your arguments.

Wonder why.

Originally posted by Selenial
You said you had Fisto above Traya, power wise.

I suddenly stopped giving a shit about your arguments.

Wonder why.

I mean, I know you're a Traya/Meetra wanker who's probably incredibly unhappy about the Revan novel, but your butthurt sadly does not constitute a legitimate argument.

Kyp Durron oneshots.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I mean, I know you're a Traya/Meetra wanker who's probably incredibly unhappy about the Revan novel, but your butthurt sadly does not constitute a legitimate argument.

Kyp Durron oneshots.

Please quickly explain to me your reasons for having Fisto above Traya.

I already explained in the response you decided to ignore (to go to call Neph a pussy for running away from you lawl) that those two conditions weren't necessary for the analogy to make sense, seeing as how analogies don't need to be exact translations in magnitude.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I already explained in the response you decided to ignore (to go to call Neph a pussy for running away from you lawl) that those two conditions weren't necessary for the analogy to make sense, seeing as how analogies don't need to be exact translations in magnitude.

You don't seem to understand. Irrelevant towards the debate as it may be, you stated that you have Fisto above Traya in the force. It's a retarded viewpoint with no factual basis, and I no longer have enough respect for you to warrant a debate

If you want to justify your statement that Fisto is a stronger force user than Traya then I'm all game. If not, then what else do you want me to reply to so badly? You went off on a colossal tangent in your original point to me, debating numerous things I hadn't even mentioned in my post. Not once did I discuss Traya's ability to drain Kyp, I don't give a shit about this thread, I was merely picking up on misconceptions by someone who obviously hasn't had the time or want to educate themselves on, or play, KotOR II.

Originally posted by Selenial
You don't seem to understand. Irrelevant towards the debate as it may be,

lawl

You initially flamed me on my analogy - that is the debate you started, that my analogy was wrong. The Kit Fisto > Traya statement came as a subpoint of my response. You have messed this up pretty badly. A necessary condition for your rebuttal to make any sense is that you address the "irrelevant towards the debate" point, whereas I can drop the Fisto > Traya point altogether, and nothing happens.




Too bad sweetie, when you jump into someone else's argument, you don't have the choice of topic. The most you can demonstrate through this weird tangent of yours is your objection to a subpoint of my response to you. But given that's the only thing you've noted, you clearly can't do anything but concede your primary contention, .ie that my analogy didn't make sense.

Another tip in debating 101: my "Fisto > Traya" claim was intertwined in an even-if statement - that the analogy doesn't have to be exact, but even if it did, Fisto > Traya so it still works. However, the "even if" condition only kicks in if you can beat the initial contention, that the analogy doesn't need to satisfy your requirements. Since you never bothered to address that, you lose, and your debating rep continues to dwindle, or rather stay firmly at zero.

Translation: Ellimist isn't confident he can justify Fisto > Traya so he's dodging the point.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Cut-content has been endorsed by Obsidian and Lucasfilm, however I admit I'm not 100% sure it's not fan made, and in this case it actually contradicts what happened instead of embellishing on it. Regardless as far as offensive ability goes, one-shotting three to four powerful CMs well exceeds Kyp's offense ability, and should be considered of considerable threat to him if she executes it successfully. It could also cripple his potential to exert a telekinetic edge over her.

Well, then that's that. We can dismiss her TKing of the four Jedi Masters feat.

I'm not sure her drain actually surpasses what Kyp has done offensively, tbh. Utilizing the drain ability on Force-users who have no defense against it is not a quantifiable feat, mainly because it does not give a clear picture of the extent of Traya's Force abilities and it only indicates that the masters don't know a counter technique. It's like when Dooku used his lightning against Savage. He clearly had no defense against it, and if Ventress wasn't there he could've easily killed him by continuing to use it. But in an actual 1v1 without the use of lightning, we realized Savage was a beast with TK and had great Force power that we would've otherwise not seen, and that Dooku wasn't as far above him as we would think.
She killing the masters by draining them only tells us is that they had no defense against her drain, but it doesn't necessarily mean she would be able to defeat them in an actual battle, whether it be a 1v3 duel or a Force battle, utilizing TK and other abilities. Therefore, I don't consider her one-shotting of the Masters as impressive as it seems. She's clearly above them, but by how much I'm not sure.



It may not be combat applicable, but it shows us a clear picture of his mastery of TK and his sheer Force power. And it's not like we haven't seen him utilize TK or other Force abilities in combat. The fact that Luke feared Kyp's powers and potential should work as an effective reference in comparing him to someone like Traya, who was beaten by the Exile in a potent dark side nexus.



Kreia aiding you telephatically only works against your argument that she's fairly powerful at that stage of the game. I don't deny she was a skilled duelist and combatant at that stage, but the fact that Kreia feels the need to help you against the master is a clear indication that Surik's abilities weren't that well-developed by then, and even then, she still manages to defeat the seasoned CM with a supposedly higher mastery over the Force. I think Surik would've defeated Vrook had Traya not helped her, although it would've been closer.




Either way, in a strict duel scenario, Traya wouldn't be able to drain Kyp as Krayt drains Abeloth. And sure, Kyp may not be infinitely more powerful, but he clearly is above her, based on accolades and feats alone.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
lawl

You initially flamed me on my analogy - that is the debate you started, that my analogy was wrong. The Kit Fisto > Traya statement came as a subpoint of my response. You have messed this up pretty badly. A necessary condition for your rebuttal to make any sense is that you address the "irrelevant towards the debate" point, whereas I can drop the Fisto > Traya point altogether, and nothing happens.

No, you see your entire analogy was put in to display just how far Kyp is above Traya. If you surrender that Fisto < Traya, your entire analogy is over-exaggerated and irrelevant.

The difference with me calling your statements cancer is that mine was clearly a joke, whereas you went on to back up your analogy as your genuinely held opinion. If you're refusing to back that up, you're conceding the debate

Originally posted by Nephthys
Translation: Ellimist isn't confident he can justify Fisto > Traya so he's dodging the point.

Kit being above Traya in power is laughable and can't even be proved.

Elm lost this one tbh.

Kyp stomps.

Actually, no, Ellimist. There is no evidence he used bombing on Katarr: Visas would have told Meetra if that were the case. And the Jedi Exile never set foot on Katarr. Visas said to her that Katarr was also a void in the Force.

By the time she sets foot on Nathema, she already fixed herself from her Wound in the Force status. So, she was as vulnerable to 'echoes' as any other Force-sensitive.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Kit being above Traya in power is laughable and can't even be proved.

Nova, would you care to debate me on something like, say Plo Koon vs Traya?

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
Nova, would you care to debate me on something like, say Plo Koon vs Traya?
Damn, Kenobi>>>Oppress>>Koon>Traya would be lit as hell.

I could see how one could argue for Koon and potential lines of scaling force wise, but they seem pretty iffy to me.

if we're taking kyp at his peak, then shouldn't we take the doval basil manipulating one? Traya should get rekt, no?