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Who wins from power scaling, accolades and thematic framing?

Dooku

Bane is near enough worthless without feats.

Originally posted by ILS
Dooku

Bane is near enough worthless without feats.

Backcover quote tbh

Bane's the Sith'ari, b*tch. "Perfect strength, perfect power", "more mastery and knowledge of dark side techniques and power than anyone before him", suck my nuts. :winku:

Yes, Neph is serious and no, the fact that Bane existed before Dooku is not lost on him.

You can tell I'm serious by "winku".

I can tell you're serious because it's one of your more grounded assertions of late.

Which is to say none of them are grounded. None of them, Neph.





None.

Blam

Why doesn't anyone ignore Ellimist's joke treads?

Same reason we don't ignore your serious ones, a good laugh.

Beni why are u so edgy

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Same reason we don't ignore your serious ones, a good laugh.

REKT

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Same reason we don't ignore your serious ones, a good laugh.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Blam

Purely on hype? I might still bet on Dooku, tbh. He was the greatest Jedi the Jedi Order had produced in centuries, and he was an even greater Lord of the Sith. He learned under the two most powerful avatars of the light and dark sides in history, and it took the chosen one to put him down.

It really doesn't hurt to be active during Star Wars' most climactic era, does it?

Bane was hyped to be a Sithari even though he can't do anything without a nexus and was the weakest of his order.

He clearly wins

Well, logistically, Dooku came(he he) a thousand years after Bane, so he has much, MUCH better resources to study from and Sidious gave him like three holoprojectors and taught him some basic Dark Side tricks(just like he did Vader and Maul) so that >>> Bane's librabries containing Sith text which he found basic that Sidious' apprentices found awe inspiring.

Oh yeah, that argument based on Dooku's reaction to Andeddu's holocron was funny. He was totes blown away, as you can tell by, well... anyway, Bane stomps.

Bane based off accolades and hype.

Yeah, it's not like Dooku kept mentioning how powerful and magnificent Andeddu's holocron is and it's not like there's a canonical statement that says the same holocron that Bane found basic gave him power... oh wait.

Can anyone bring up accolades for Bane that are better than being Sir Christopher Lee? Because I don't see how being a bald goth compares.

Originally posted by MythLord
Yeah, it's not like Dooku kept mentioning how powerful and magnificent Andeddu's holocron is and it's not like there's a canonical statement that says the same holocron that Bane found basic gave him power... oh wait.

Or conversely, maybe Dooku was able to glean things from the holocron that Bane couldn't.

Given how Bane spent hours basically dominating the holocron of Andeddu and learned it's most precious secret, Essence Transfer, I don't think that possible.

My only problem with Bane > Dooku is that the gap between Sidious and Dooku would have to be absolutely monstrously large to accompany 30 generations of Banite sith between them, seeing that Bane is the weakest of the line.

He does choke him. And I always found your assumption of a 5% increase to be extremely arbitrary and unlikely.

Or maybe the power growth between each generation of the RoT line isn't all that significant.

It has to be noticeable enough for the apprentice to regularly best the master in combat, since that happens, not always but frequently enough. And in every iteration we see the gap seems to be noticeable, .ie Plagueis is noticeably stronger than Tenebrous, and Plagueis is noticeably weaker than Sidious.

Tbh I think Plagueis and Sidious were special cases. Tenebrous was like Vader level based off of feats and then we get a massive spike in Plagueis and then Sidious.

I don't know though you might be right because the apprentices never seem to be at their prime when they beat their masters like with Zannah as well ( though of course there were circumstances to that one ). I wish we had more material on the RoT line.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
It has to be noticeable enough for the apprentice to regularly best the master in combat, since that happens, not always but frequently enough. And in every iteration we see the gap seems to be noticeable, .ie Plagueis is noticeably stronger than Tenebrous, and Plagueis is noticeably weaker than Sidious.

Yeah because Zannah was so much stronger than Bane. And Cognus's greatest strength, her foresight and power dampening ability, absolutely required her to be more powerful than Zannah to win.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah because Zannah was so much stronger than Bane.

Seeing as how she won a TP battle against Bane and was likely before her prime, she probably was. She just wasn't as good of a duelist.



That's not mutually exclusive from her being stronger, lol. And regardless of how the apprentice wins, each generation is successively more capable on the aggregate, and that adds up.

It was a contest of will, not power.

But your argument was that it requires them to be stronger to kill their master. Obviously it doesn't since esoteric abilities don't require that. We should also acknowledge that although the would become stronger, Sidious and Plagueis killed their masters without power being an issue. Backstabbing and surprise are just as possible as direct conflict.

V Not what he was saying tho.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah because Zannah was so much stronger than Bane.

Yeah, because Zannah didn't improve at all after DoE.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Obviously it doesn't since esoteric abilities don't require that.

Like I said, the more relevant issue to this thread is that each apprentice has to be better in overall combative ability than their master, and this aggregates.



Yes, it doesn't always happen that way, but it happens frequently enough for it to add up. And Sidious and Plagueis are interesting examples - they didn't kill their masters in direct combat but were still noticeably more powerful in their primes.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
My only problem with Bane > Dooku is that the gap between Sidious and Dooku would have to be absolutely monstrously large to accompany 30 generations of Banite sith between them, seeing that Bane is the weakest of the line.
Being fair, Gravid did set their order back, but still I do understand. The problem is: the gap between Sidious and Dooku is monsterous. Sidious is far and away better than any being up to and during his era with a few exceptions(Plagueis, Vitiate/Valkorion and Yoda being the most obvious).

Gravid may have destroyed sets of arcane knowledge, but it's still corroborated thrice that every successive Banite sith was stronger than the last - and indeed, Gravid lost to his apprentice.

The Sidious >>>>>>>> Dooku theory is fine, except that Yoda vs. Dooku in AotC doesn't really give that impression, not when the novelization describes Yoda absorbing his second lightning blast "far from easily".

Eh, that novel is sketchy to me, tbh. There's been several sources that say Yoda has actually deflected Dooku's lightning easily, and just dueling an actually all-out Yoda for a short time in Yoda: Dark Rendezvous made Dooku be completely exhausted, yet Yoda was fine. Take not: this was a substantial Dark Side Nexus.

I'm thinking Yoda was just holding back on Dooku, which solves everyone's issues as far as interpreting the fight goes.

Possibly it was that Yoda either hasn't blocked Force Lightning with his hands by then (having no Sith to fight) or at least not for hundreds of years. It is an advanced technique. Despite how powerful Luke is he still underperforms the first time he really uses a technique before seriousing up later. He almost drained himself conjuring an illusion of a ship in Dark Nest, a few years later he was fooling Caedus with visions of fleets only he could see.

Bane via thematic framing.