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Round 1 - Sabers

Round 2 - Force

Round 3 - All Out

Both in their prime. Who wins?

Bane.
Bane.
Bane.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Bane.
Bane.
Bane.

1) Venamis
2) Bane
3) an hero

raisins

Bane has has decades of experience over Ven and his relative accomplishments are superior.

Bane has better force feats. While Plagueis after his defeat of Ten should have been more powerful then DoE Bane we know Venamis was not as powerful as Plagu-chan. Only powerful enough to not be dominated by Plagu-chan in the Force. I'd still give it to Bane if only by a slight margin.

All out should go to Bane for the above reasons.

Venamis pretty easily

Venamis stomps. The Banite gap is too large.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Bane.
Bane.
Bane.

Honestly.

Banes got nothing in his skill feats that even come close to dueling someone like Plagueis. He struggled with Zannah whose dueling feats are nonexistent, he's trashed tier as a Lightsaber wielder

And what are Plagueis's dueling feats by that point? Not being interested in combat? :/

Venamis was at least able to challenge Plagueis, who would've oneshotted Bane.

Originally posted by Syndicate
And what are Plagueis's dueling feats by that point?

This. Using circular logic like, "Plagueis is good because he beat Venamis, Venamis is good because he hung with Plagueis." doesn't exactly make for a sturdy argument.

Venamis is a failed, half-trained apprentice who was implied to be in a fairly early stage of his training. He could probably hold his own, but he's not proven himself to really be a match for Bane at all.

Implying Bane could even last a second against Plagueis in a duel, lol

Not prime Plagueis of course but Plagueis as of the beginning of the novel? Why not?

He's still substantially faster and more powerful in the force as per Banes design in the Rule of Two. Seeing as Bane is the weakest of his Order and Venamis was specifically trained by Tenebrous to combat him, Bane really has nothing in his feats that compare to pressuring Plagueis in a duel.

...Well, I mean, it's not like Venamis was specifically trained to combat Bane.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
...Well, I mean, it's not like Venamis was specifically trained to combat Bane.

Tbh was he even specifically trained to combat Plagueis? I thought the text only stated he was trained in Plagu's form?

Originally posted by carthage
He's still substantially faster and more powerful in the force as per Banes design in the Rule of Two. Seeing as Bane is the weakest of his Order and Venamis was specifically trained by Tenebrous to combat him, Bane really has nothing in his feats that compare to pressuring Plagueis in a duel.

Granted Venamis should be faster but I doubt Venamis has superior combative applications of the force.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Tbh was he even specifically trained to combat Plagueis? I thought the text only stated he was trained in Plagu's form?

You really need to free yourself from CV cancer, Syn. My cancer is better an quality.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
You really need to free yourself from CV cancer, Syn. My cancer is better an quality.

I like you alot NG. Ur like that wise 20 something year old that's got everything figured out.

Also I don't even go on CV much anymore. I just do it when my confidence is low so that all the noobs on there can boost it admiring the reputation that I don't even know how I got.

Although in reality I'm only negligibly older than Ant. Tempest actually fits that description much more accurately.



Yep, that's why Ant focuses on Comicvine. He can barely function without its ego-boost these days.

Why are all the kids in my life smarter then me?

He's actually gotten better. He used to prop himself up as a God King in the YouTube comments.

He still does in his most private moments, I assure you.

You make me sad NG.

Anyways though you were considering making me an apprentice?

Darth Bane wins this fight if we're arguing feats, and even the RoT scaling is kind of a wash when you consider that even in TCW Darth Bane was used in a sorcery vision by freaking Darth Sidious as a way to scare Yoda. Obviously that isn't any concrete indicator of power, but it does indicate that Bane is a freaking badass. And even Sidious considers Bane as one of his most powerful predecessors. Plus there's the whole Bane is more powerful/masterful in the dark side than any sith that came before him. If the RoT Sith did straight up get more powerful in the force generation by generation, it shouldn't have been by all too much. Not that Venamis should even be wanked by the RoT scaling, he was kinda getting raped by pre prime Plagueis; if memory serves Plagueis barely even tried in that fight and per narrator statement could have ended it any time he wanted with the force.

I guess the question is this: did Venamis receive enough benefit from his RoT training, and did he show himself comparable enough to Plagueis to suggest he's beyond Bane?
I'm inclined to think yes, just because of how far along the Banite line he was, how well trained by Tenny he seemed to be, and because on a purely physical level he was up there with Plagueis, which represents Force Augmentation, which in turn (DMB, brace yourself) suggests a high degree of Force mastery and potency.

So we know he has the power, and we know he has the training (preparing to release a "storm" of lightning on Plagy doesn't hurt) I see no reason why we can't infer he's better than Bane.

If anything it'd be a compliment to Bane if invalid apprentices of his line can surpass him.

See, we can't infer that Venamis is superior because of my post.

Fight me, damn it. I need something to pass the time while this goddamn adderall is still kicking.

Well for your post:

1. The feats/powerscaling from feats of others you mentioned don't do anything to change my own argument. We both agree Bane wins via feats.

2. Bane's accolades/inferences of being badass are cool, but they again don't preclude the idea that Venamis is his better. You're arguing a different point altogether which might be "who has more renown in Sith history".

3. To my knowledge that's all horseshit. It was a life or death duel where Plagueis was injured early on. It is said he drew out the duel, frustratingly so, when he realized Venamis could counter his every move instinctively, due to the fact Tenebrous not only trained him in Plagueis' form, but also the way he fights as an individual. But by drawing out the duel, and making it seem more like back and forth sparring than a deadly contest, Venamis sacrificed finesse for aggression, overextended, and paid the price for it.

It's for that reason I don't understand why people suggest Plagueis or even Venamis have no legitimate dueling hype. Venamis even being slightly scaled off Bane, if not outright, is a seriously deadly fighter, and adding on that he knew absolutely everything there is to know about how Plagueis fights? The fact Plagueis not only forced a stalemate but beat Venamis in the end suggests, to me at least, he's one of the most adroit duelists you can discuss in Star Wars. And this was well before his peak in Force connection which, as DMB knows, dictates the effectiveness of your dueling abilities, and all Force related activities you train in.

Good, very good. Someone who actually puts up some goddamn resistance.

1. Yeah.

2. Alot of it kind of does preclude the idea that Venamis is Bane's superior. On implication/hype, he's the most powerful and masterful sith lord in galactic history up till his time, which would put him above the likes of Exar Kun, Marka Ragnos, Naga Sadow, and even Emperor Vitiate. And Sidious straight up said that Bane and 4 others were his most powerful predecessors, not most renown. Point being that Bane, as the Sith'ari, is implied to be a being of both immense power and renown. If Venamis fits any of these bills, feel free to address why.

3. Really? Because I swear a remember a statement indicating that Plagueis could have quickly ended the contest with the force if he wished to, or at least the contest in general.

4. I wouldn't say outright, as Venamis would inevitably end up holding a similar function to Dooku and Maul. There's a reason Plagueis disposed of/experimented on him. And of course I agree that Plagueis is absolutely one of the most able duelists in the mythos, and by extension Venamis but...so is Bane. He was butchering a legitimate technical mastermind in Kas'im prior to the latter pulling out jar'kai, and Bane became infinitely more powerful and skilled after that to the point where acts he thought were impossible with the blade, (deflecting thunderstorm rain) became a daily routine for him.

The underlined part is what you need to pay attention to. Venamis didn't exist at that point.

The publisher's summary says Malgus, Bane, Talzin, Plagueis and Sorzus are Sidious' 5 most powerful predecessors.

On the other hand, pretty much every other source in Star Wars, which aren't created by the publisher, concludes that each successive Sith in Bane's line became more powerful and knowledgeable in the Dark Side than their master. Other explicit sources conclude that Vitiate is better than Malgus and Sorzus. So while the five of them are clearly among Sidious' most powerful predecessors, they aren't a strict top 5, thus you can't exclude Venamis by principle.

Ergo, none of it applies to Venamis. This, however?

-Revenge of the Sith

I find that to be quite compelling given that Venamis was trained extensively at the end of this thousand year line by none other than one of Bane's most powerful and experienced successors. Trained so extensively that he could shield his Dark Side alignment from Plagueis himself, and sufficiently that Tenebrous awarded him the Darth title (the title in of itself means shit, but it suggests Tenebrous took no half-measures in training him).
-Darth Plagueis

So from what we know, Venamis was indeed pretty badass. Though it's clear he doesn't fully benefit from the RoT scaling, and interestingly enough Plagueis speculates that Venamis would have done well in Bane's era. Also what's important to note is that Tenebrous and Plagueis were at odds in regards to the Sith's future for decades, and at that time they were both looking for Force sensitive acolytes to help them, which is presumably around the time Tenebrous found and began training Venamis.

-Darth Plagueis

I think based on what we have, Venamis is at least as strong as Bane, possibly stronger, and he didn't reach his full potential.

Yes, Kas'im's awesome, but he's barely a footnote as far as RoT Sith go. I don't think beating him really helps an argument against Venamis who, by merit of his training and shown power, should be capable of utterly molesting the Sith battlemaster.

ROT powerscaling sucks

Canon, biatch.

Because maul was sidious' first apprentice does that imply that he had the potential to surpass him then?

It's not impossible.

I think he did given how powerful he was AFTER he lost the lower half of his body.

I've kind of accepted at this point that Canon is too timid to show us what Maul is really capable of. He's never going to reach his max potential. Probably not even close.

Well, if he could surpass Vader, Sidious would've taken him.

Maul's been so hopelessly beaten down by Sidious and his agents by this point (and humiliated by Kanan) that I can't see him ever rising to significance.

Sidious' agents?

Did Skillz just say "Finally, someone who shows some resistance." And then crumble under ILS's counter? Lol.

Originally posted by ILS
Sidious' agents?

Vader chased him off Malachor, I guess.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Did Skillz just say "Finally, someone who shows some resistance." And then crumble under ILS's counter? Lol.

Unfortunately, I've legit gotten to the point where I can't debate when I'm not on adderall.

Fair enough lover. :5

Just popped 40 mg. I'll respond when it starts to kick in.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Just popped 40 mg. I'll respond when it starts to kick in. You have a problem, son.

Originally posted by ILS
You have a problem, son.

He's got 99 problems but an addural aint one.

Darth Bane

Ehh, I'll concede/fall in line for now, ILS. I spoke too soon. Excellent argument.

Fanx bro.

Originally posted by ILS
You have a problem, son.

Just noticed this. I have an prescription now, *****