Technological UnEmployement

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Time-Immemorial
So the left wants more minimum wage, however if it's cheaper to have a robot, the worker will only face long term UnEmployement.

Will the Liberals and Suto Intellectionals in Silicone Valley be the downfall of the lower classes and middle class?

Flyattractor
Mega City 1 here we come.

snowdragon
The downfall of the middle class comes from creating a more "global" economy. Trade agreements like NAFTA spread the wealth to places like mexico and took it right out of our pockets.

AlmightyKfish
How this idea is dealt with various so much country by country, so I guess the effects of the eventual mass-mechanisation of many industries by 2040 or so will really have to wait to be seen.

There's various ideas about how to deal with it, from a basic income for citizens (like Switzerland is voting on in June) to regulating industries for quotas of actual human beings etc.

It's problematic because most corporations pretty much have no responsibility (or desire for much) about society, and as such will embrace cost cutting mechanisation when it comes along. I mean you have entire factories even now with no lighting or heating etc as everything in it is a machine line, saving loads of money for said companies.

Basically, it's going to be pretty interesting how places deal with it (as it's only increasing) and these approaches will likely vary. It's also not something you can politicize as the fault of the right or the left, as the reasoning behind it is pretty much just profit based among non political (in theory) entities. That being said some of the approaches to deal with it will inevitably swing towards the right or left, which is why these will probably differ quite a lot depending on where they are.

Digi
Seems a bit reductionist, TI. There are legitimate concerns about raising the minimum wage. FiveThirtyEight did a nice article about it not too long ago that basically said "it depends" to the question. There are areas in CA that have already implemented it, and by and large it's been a good thing. But there are socioeconomicl factors in those areas that don't apply across the spectrum. I don't want to say more than I remember. I'll try to find the article.

{edit} Here ya go: http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/californias-15-minimum-wage-makes-a-lot-less-sense-outside-of-silicon-valley/

In any case, the march of technology will eliminate some jobs and create others regardless of minimum wage. I see the two as being more unrelated than the OP implies.

Unemployment has been higher at numerous points throughout the last century or so, though. Prediction is always tricky at best, but the sky isn't falling just yet.

MS Warehouse
I would argue that raising the minimum wage has been more detrimental than actually positive. That's what I've seen anyways.

Digi
Originally posted by MS Warehouse
I would argue that raising the minimum wage has been more detrimental than actually positive. That's what I've seen anyways.

"What you've seen" is fairly inadmissible in anything resembling a thorough discussion. To be fair, what I've seen is just as inadmissible. But your claim requires more extrapolation before it can be regarded as anything other than an incremental movement toward page 2 of this thread.

As it is, from what I've read (the FiveThirtyEight article I linked is a good start, but far from everything), I'm cautiously pessimistic about a sweeping, one-size-fits-all approach to upping the minimum wage. I personally no longer have a stake in it either, so it's hard to be too passionate about it. On the one hand, I do know it would help some desperate people (at least in the short-term). But there's nothing resembling a consensus of its benefit even among more liberal economists, and I fear it wouldn't have the geographic nuance required to work more places than not.

It's xyz!
Raising the minimum wage raises the wages of uneducated low skill workers who are usually teens or early 20s. They tend to be the most reckless with their spending as well.

This raises prices and new products tend to be produced and readily available when the minimum wage is raised. The money inevitably goes into the hands of the rich business owners in exchange for a better quality of life (at least, that's the theory anyway).

What does this mean for the middle class? Higher taxes.

A rise in minimum wage and a rise in prices would also mean a rise in welfare due to economic problems, and since the rich business owners are the ones who know how to loophole or leave, those taxes are taken from the middle class. But this affects those in the high tax brackets where the new graduate simply works on a similar wage to the non graduate despite doing a higher skilled job. They will however have enough hours worked to be eligible for tax and will in fact move up the ladder giving more tax money.

Raising the minimum wage is a more heartwarming way of saying inflation and taxes, which affects the middle class the most and anyone who supports it needs to consider the after affects of all groups.

Newjak
Originally posted by It's xyz!
Raising the minimum wage raises the wages of uneducated low skill workers who are usually teens or early 20s. They tend to be the most reckless with their spending as well.

This raises prices and new products tend to be produced and readily available when the minimum wage is raised. The money inevitably goes into the hands of the rich business owners in exchange for a better quality of life (at least, that's the theory anyway).

What does this mean for the middle class? Higher taxes.

A rise in minimum wage and a rise in prices would also mean a rise in welfare due to economic problems, and since the rich business owners are the ones who know how to loophole or leave, those taxes are taken from the middle class. But this affects those in the high tax brackets where the new graduate simply works on a similar wage to the non graduate despite doing a higher skilled job. They will however have enough hours worked to be eligible for tax and will in fact move up the ladder giving more tax money.

Raising the minimum wage is a more heartwarming way of saying inflation and taxes, which affects the middle class the most and anyone who supports it needs to consider the after affects of all groups. This is actually false. I think the medium age of workers that would be effected by a minimum wage hike to 15/hour is 33 or 35 years old... not low 20s and teens.

Omega Vision
Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
So the left wants more minimum wage, however if it's cheaper to have a robot, the worker will only face long term UnEmployement.

Will the Liberals and Suto Intellectionals in Silicone Valley be the downfall of the lower classes and middle class?
I hate the idea that people should have to work for shit wages (and often for ridiculously long hours) if they want to keep their crappy, unfulfilling jobs, that's not how it should work in this country.

MS Warehouse
That's kinda my point in regards to what I said as well as what you said. I understand the emotional benefit of it but the long term economical benefit (at least in my understanding of basic economic principles) cannot be positive. Using simplistic economics, if wages go up, prices go up. If prices go up, sales go down/profits go down/people get laid off. Imagine paying MCD's workers $15 an hour. What would happen to the price of their meals? The $1 meals are gone. The lower class may or may not be able to afford MCDs anymore or would probably choose a cheaper alternative. Aside from "helping employees", I don't see a long term economic benefit to this. We saw a wonderful example of this with a Seattle firm, although one can argue that the implementation was poor to begin with. Unless the higher ups are willing to take a long term pay cut (and some people obviously might), it doesn't seem like workable thing, at least the way it's set up now.


How should it work exactly? What's a "shit" wage?

It's xyz!
Originally posted by Newjak
This is actually false. I think.... Pretty sure it's people below 30 or 25.

Time-Immemorial
Originally posted by Omega Vision
I hate the idea that people should have to work for shit wages (and often for ridiculously long hours) if they want to keep their crappy, unfulfilling jobs, that's not how it should work in this country.

The liberals and Suto Intellectuals in Silicon Valley are providing technology to businesses to replace the worker as wages go up, businesses will just replace their staff with more robotics offered by the tech industry.

Introducing Robo Burger

http://gizmodo.com/5962656/this-robo-griller-can-flip-360-burgers-an-hour

Built by San Francisco-based Momentum Machines, this robotic burger maker is designed to do the work of three full-time kitchen staff. The current alpha version of the machine grinds, stamps, and grills patties (made to order), then cuts and layers lettuce, onions, pickles, and tomatoes before slapping everything on a bun and wrapping it to go. The only human labor involved is that needed to take the customer's money and hand over the completed burger.

AlmightyKfish
Oh please you can't put the blame entirely on the 'liberals and 'pseudo' intellectuals'.

Mechanization of the workforce has been happening for decades. Sure it may be speeding up now, but it's hardly the fault of liberals. Businesses want to make money, people want technology to progress, this technology allows businesses to make more money to research more technology.

It's capitalism in action. Blaming left wing people for technological progress is entirely framing it to follow your narrative.

Time-Immemorial
Pajamaboy intelletuals have no connection to the blue collar workers and low wage workers of America.

I am glad you bring up its Capitalism, I agree, I am all for robotization.

I am just pointing out the hypocrisy and the lies of the left.

"Hey we are going to raise your mininum wage, (under breath)but in 10 years the entire service industry could be reduced by 75%)

Dont sell a bill of goods as something its not.

Try to comprehend what I am saying before you post a stupid rebuttal again by swing/miss embarrassing yourself.

AlmightyKfish
I mean, the two are not mutually exclusive.

Especially if you take the idea that mechanization and automation are inevitable, getting employers to pay their employees a decent living wage whilst they still have employees is admirable no?

I don't think anyone is lying about automation etc, but a lot of people consider them separate (but related) issues to the minimum wage etc.

Time-Immemorial
So the average low wage worker, the prime target for democrates and liberals are in the know about the upcoming robotization of America.

I dont think so.

They are concerned about taking care of their family. So the liberals tell them we are going to raise you wages, but in the smoky cigar filled rooms with brandy and fine scotch, the power brokers and social capitalist have a different idea for the world. Do you really think people like Hilary care about the American people? No they dont.

Try to understand, while America meaning goverment America liberals wants to import low wage foriegn workers into America for votes, they are exporting Jobs through NAFTA (Hilarys Husband signed into law} and TPP {Hilary Supported before she was against it) and putting the factories in other countrys.

The Jobs here don't exist anymore. There is little manufacturing left, America is being run by far left pajamaboy intellectuals who went to harvard and then went into government doing what they were taught by far left liberals in school.

The American economy is producing fewer and fewer jobs.

jaden101
I'd like to see the evidence behind the claim that companies developing robotic technology and more so those companies who will utilise robotic technology to replace their unskilled, minimum wage employees are all run by lefties.

Surtur
I just punched my toaster in the face just now..just to get back it for potentially stealing jobs in the future. That'll teach that machine, I have no patience for brave little toasters.

ArtificialGlory
Originally posted by Surtur
I just punched my toaster in the face just now..just to get back it for potentially stealing jobs in the future. That'll teach that machine, I have no patience for brave little toasters.
Take a shit in it next time it gets lippy. That's what I do to my microwave.

Surtur
Nah the microwave is what I use to dry my cat off after giving her a bath. F*cking b*tch ass cat.

Newjak
Originally posted by MS Warehouse
That's kinda my point in regards to what I said as well as what you said. I understand the emotional benefit of it but the long term economical benefit (at least in my understanding of basic economic principles) cannot be positive. Using simplistic economics, if wages go up, prices go up. If prices go up, sales go down/profits go down/people get laid off. Imagine paying MCD's workers $15 an hour. What would happen to the price of their meals? The $1 meals are gone. The lower class may or may not be able to afford MCDs anymore or would probably choose a cheaper alternative. Aside from "helping employees", I don't see a long term economic benefit to this. We saw a wonderful example of this with a Seattle firm, although one can argue that the implementation was poor to begin with. Unless the higher ups are willing to take a long term pay cut (and some people obviously might), it doesn't seem like workable thing, at least the way it's set up now.


How should it work exactly? What's a "shit" wage? Not completely true. First off most large corporations would only have to increase their average transaction by about 10 cents to a dollar to make up for any lost profits. That is per transaction and not item by the way. Even still an increase minimum wage does not necessarily point to an equal adjusted increase in prices. There are things that companies still have to account for such as competitive pricing and the overall price people are willing to pay for items.

Remember when gas hit insanely high in America but there was limit of price increases that saw Americans hit their max point. Then the companies immediately begin lowering prices. I mean there were other factors as well but that was also one of them.

Originally posted by It's xyz!
Pretty sure it's people below 30 or 25. That's only the case if you actually look at people making the current minimum wage.

But we are talking about all Americans that would benefit from a minimum wage increase which is 35 years old.

http://www.epi.org/publication/wage-workers-older-88-percent-workers-benefit/

Also the automation of jobs has been the standard economic and industrial throughout most of civilization. Within the last couple 100 years more so due to the technology spike we've been going through.

I do think there is an interesting conversation in this thread to be had though. And that is the fact that we as a society are constantly trying to innovate technology which fundamentally often leads to job loss in some sectors especially in automation. We currently have a society based on people earning livings through jobs. So at some point will our automation and technology reach such a level that style of society will no longer be feasible?

Time-Immemorial
This machine is also relatively inexpensive to operate compared to human workers; it doesn't call in sick or get hurt or randomly walk off the job either. Momentum Machines estimates that every fast food franchise in America spends an average of $135,000 annually on staffing. By replacing these people with this machine, the fast food industry could save upwards of nine billion dollars a year—a savings that could be reinvested in much better quality ingredients without raising the cost of the product itself. Now that is a tasty burger.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
The liberals and Suto Intellectuals in Silicon Valley are providing technology to businesses to replace the worker as wages go up, businesses will just replace their staff with more robotics offered by the tech industry.

Introducing Robo Burger

http://gizmodo.com/5962656/this-robo-griller-can-flip-360-burgers-an-hour

Built by San Francisco-based Momentum Machines, this robotic burger maker is designed to do the work of three full-time kitchen staff. The current alpha version of the machine grinds, stamps, and grills patties (made to order), then cuts and layers lettuce, onions, pickles, and tomatoes before slapping everything on a bun and wrapping it to go. The only human labor involved is that needed to take the customer's money and hand over the completed burger. Originally posted by jaden101
I'd like to see the evidence behind the claim that companies developing robotic technology and more so those companies who will utilise robotic technology to replace their unskilled, minimum wage employees are all run by lefties.

Boom , if you read the link you would see it was already posted.

jaden101
Originally posted by Time-Immemorial



Boom , if you read the link you would see it was already posted.

The link only states that an automatic burger maker has been invented and that it could save the fast food industry money on wages. This isn't anything different than industries like printing, car manufacturing and countless others have been doing since the beginning of the industrial revolution.

You seem to be insinuating that if the lefties weren't campaigning for a higher minimum wage that companies who pay employees that wouldn't be looking for technologies to replace their workforce with an automated alternative.

You are also insinuating that these technologies are only being invented by liberal run technology companies and being bought and used by liberal run businesses looking to get rid of their employees.

None of that is even mentioned in the article.

Moreover you're insinuating that liberal politicians are somehow colluding with companies who employ minimum wage workers to give them a legitimate excuse to get rid of their employees.

Your proof for this is that a company made an automated burger maker.

Time-Immemorial
I'm glad you can't refute anything I posted and now being ignorant to the point and trying to marginalize the article by saying that this isn't proof and suggesting this is a single instance.

You also didn't read the article so you literally have no clue what you are saying.

You basically tried to disprove me by writing an opinion piece. While ignoring reality.

Newjak
Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
I'm glad you can't refute anything I posted and now being ignorant to the point and trying to marginalize the article by saying that this isn't proof and suggesting this is a single instance.

You also didn't read the article so you literally have no clue what you are saying.

You basically tried to disprove me by writing an opinion piece. While ignoring reality. I've read the article top to bottom and it really does not mention anything about the left raising minimum wages, left leaning companies trying to automate workers, or Hillary at all.

Time-Immemorial
So your unable to connect the dots?

And denying the left wants to raise minimum wage?

The article flat out says the company is a silicone based company.

I'm having trouble finding you serious right now.

Funny you ant to respond here but duck out elsewhere.

jaden101
Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
I'm glad you can't refute anything I posted and now being ignorant to the point and trying to marginalize the article by saying that this isn't proof and suggesting this is a single instance.

You also didn't read the article so you literally have no clue what you are saying.

You basically tried to disprove me by writing an opinion piece. While ignoring reality.

It's not an opinion that automation has been taking place since the industrial revolution. Textile manufacturers, car manufacturers, household appliance companies have all done it. Were they all part of a lefty conspiracy in your mind too?

These technological developments will happen regardless of a minimum wage rise because companies are always looking to cut costs. Attempting to make it out as some liberal conspiracy, which is exactly what you were doing with the "cigar smoke filled rooms" nonsense is just patently idiotic.

Now if you want to provide proof of it you'll have to post the names of all these robotics manufacturers CEOs and board members and post proof of their liberal politics then the CEOs and board members of all the companies who buy those technologies and their political leanings including campaign donations to liberal politicians along with lobbying. Then you'll have to correlate which politicians received money from those companies with their voting or campaigning for an increase in the minimum wage.

Time-Immemorial
John Tammy a Forbes writer wrote a book on it already which disproves you.

Www.amazon.com/who-needs-fed-abolish-Americas/dp/1594038317

Also as if I have to prove liberal Silicon Valley is not liberal.laughing out loud

I don't have to prove air exists.

Newjak
Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
So your unable to connect the dots?

And denying the left wants to raise minimum wage?

The article flat out says the company is a silicone based company.

I'm having trouble finding you serious right now.

Funny you ant to respond here but duck out elsewhere. Sorry that they are raising the minimum wage as a scheme to destroy jobs.

And all Silicone based companies are automatically left leaning?

And where else did I duck out of?

jaden101
Then it shouldn't be difficult for you to post the proof I've asked for, should it.

Time-Immemorial
laughing out loud

More lies, disproving a positive is on you. I just posted one company doing this.

Let's talk about Uber, the self driving car.

Should we keep going with more companies aiming to replace entire industries.

Uber, McDonald's, Auto Manufacting, Banking, Service Industry, Medical Industry.

The minimum wage increase is a lie to swap the demographics of the minority immigrant voting base they are importing. Liberals promise jobs when the jobs are being sold out to corporations who are replacing the workers for cost effective machines.

jaden101
Originally posted by Time-Immemorial


Also as I I have to prove liberal Silicon Valley is not liberal.laughing out loud



In English please.

Time-Immemorial
You coming out against me doesn't make you able to skate the issue. You are purely disagreeing based of some built up contempt you have for me.

jaden101
Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
laughing out loud

More lies, disproving a positive is on you. I just posted one company doing this.

Let's talk about Uber, the self driving car.

Should we keep going?

You're the one claiming all the tech companies and the businesses which buy their products are run by liberals.

I'll give you one to start with, shall I?

An easy one...Elon Musk.

Newjak
Originally posted by Newjak

And where else did I duck out of? I'm still waiting to hear the answer to this one?

jaden101
Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
You coming out against me doesn't make you able to skate the issue. You are purely disagreeing based of some built up contempt you have for me.

All I'm wanting is you to back up your claims with some proof. Apparently you're unable to.

Time-Immemorial
Since when isn't a published book proof?

jaden101
Originally posted by Time-Immemorial


Uber, McDonald's, Auto Manufacting, Banking, Service Industry, Medical Industry.



So these industries/companies are awash with liberals and lefties are they?

Time-Immemorial
I guess this isn't proof either

http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2015/05/21/408234543/will-your-job-be-done-by-a-machine

jaden101
Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Since when isn't a published book proof?

Post some quotes from it then.

Time-Immemorial
Or you could just click links I proved.

Time-Immemorial
Robotics could lead to 50-75% UnEmployement rating

http://www.businessinsider.com/50-percent-unemployment-robot-economy-2013-1

jaden101
Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
I guess this isn't proof either

http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2015/05/21/408234543/will-your-job-be-done-by-a-machine

Oh dear.

TI...nobody is arguing that automation isn't happening.

We're saying your claim that it's a lefty conspiracy to get rid of minimum wage jobs is bullshit.

Time-Immemorial
Is a 50-75% unemployment rate a conspiracy?

It's not bullshit because you say it is.

Your also not some authority here so watch yourself.

jaden101
Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Is a 50-75% unemployment rate a conspiracy?

It's not bullshit because you say it is.

Your also not some authority here so watch yourself.

You're right. It's not bullshit because I say it is. It's bullshit because it's bullshit.

But hey. You say it's not so I can't wait to hear about all these lefty liberal CEOs of banks and other massive conglomerates you were talking about.

Those Koch brothers. Their companies must rely on a lot of automation. Let's look at their political donations. I wonder if they're liberals.

Time-Immemorial
You think the Koch brothers are conservatives?

Lol. They are as conservative as Hilary Clinton.

Time-Immemorial
Originally posted by jaden101
You're right. It's not bullshit because I say it is. It's bullshit because it's bullshit.

But hey. You say it's not so I can't wait to hear about all these lefty liberal CEOs of banks and other massive conglomerates you were talking about.

Those Koch brothers. Their companies must rely on a lot of automation. Let's look at their political donations. I wonder if they're liberals.

Apparently you missed the title of the book.

Try again.

jaden101
Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Apparently you missed the title of the book.

Try again.

I'd wager that if I've read the title then I'll have read as much of the book as you have seeing as you're unable to post any arguments from it that back you up.

Time-Immemorial
I'll post them tomorrow, game of thrones time.

AlmightyKfish
Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
You think the Koch brothers are conservatives?

Lol. They are as conservative as Hilary Clinton.

Aha what?

So I mean, people are right in saying you are literally not backing up half the conspiracy sounding stuff that you're saying, so I didn't really feel the need to comment.

But that? That is a ridiculous statement. The Koch brothers are maybe the most prolific conservative donors on the planet. They're the ones who ultimately backed the Tea Party, they're the ones who have backed the few studies left which deny climate change. They're the ones who have recently made an entire new group to lobby and promote petroleum use in the face of increased public support for alternative energy. Look at pretty much any cause they have donated to, and it's a conservative one.

The idea that they are not conservatives is ludicrous. Now maybe they might not be your kind of grass roots conservative, but they are conservative nonetheless. To say otherwise is just wilfully ignoring facts.

Time-Immemorial
I dont think you got it by me saying that. Again you missed the point and went way over board to try and act like you have edominance.

What would you really know about anything anyways, you live in Britan. Im really sick of you british people telling us Americans how to run our country.

We left, we never wanted to come back, yall came and we beat you again and again, and now you rely on us to fight your battles.

AlmightyKfish
Well I mean the thread is about automation and mechanization which is a global issue. So nationality isn't relevant to the discussion.

That being said, sure 'blah blah 1776 blah blah we saved you in WW2 (False but whatever) blah blah ' murica whatever', people are interested because American policy affects the entire planet. But again, all irrelevant to this thread about mechanization really.

And I wasn't telling you how to run your country. I was replying to the fact you said the Koch brothers aren't conservative. Which again, not a nationality thing just replying to a clearly untrue thing you posted. Wasn't going overboard just correcting you. Sorry if that riles you or whatever.

Time-Immemorial
How how do you judge people, based off their actions or words?

Surtur
I don't know if there is a conspiracy, but all I can do is just look at how some people behave in this current climate. We have greedy people who'd rather pay illegals shit pay as opposed to paying an honest american citizen a fair wage.

So if using robots would be cheaper then using people of COURSE they will do it.

If people truly cared about the average working man in this country then no illegals would come here because they wouldn't be able to find a single job, because not a single business owner would be willing to cut corners just to avoid paying people a decent wage.

jaden101
Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
I'll post them tomorrow, game of thrones time.

Good choice. I won't see it til Sunday cos I'm in the land of ze Germans at the moment

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