Valkorion vs Sovereign

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Beniboybling
Two BioWare powerhouses go head to head, whose TP is more creepy? smile

cs_zoltan
Is this legit about creepiness? In that case Sovereign.

Beniboybling
Nah, all-out.

cs_zoltan
Valkorion godstomps then. Mass Effect is not really an over the top universe.

Valky could instantly mindrape "superhumans" with some level of TP resistance, while for a Reaper it takes time to indoctrinate even the most simple sentient.

Not to mention that indoctrination degrades the subject. As Saren said it "The more control Sovereign exerts the less capable the subject becomes."

Beniboybling
I meant all out as in all there powers, not just TP, lel.

cs_zoltan
ffs word your OP better fuggit.

MS Warehouse
Well we know one thing, Valkorion won't be subjected to indoctrination.

AncientPower
Nothing Valkorion has done in combat is going to effect Sovereign, meanwhile Sovereign is sporting doomray weapons that flatten pretty much anything.

MS Warehouse
Originally posted by AncientPower
Nothing Valkorion has done in combat is going to effect Sovereign, meanwhile Sovereign is sporting doomray weapons that flatten pretty much anything.

I'm not sure what Sovereign has that would remotely affect Valkorion either.

AncientPower
He has beams that hit with 450 kilotons of TNT, that easily level cityblocks and have one-shotted kinetic barriers and dreadnought hulls. Valk's barriers are impressive but nowhere near tanking sustained beams of magnetohydrodynamic cannon.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by AncientPower
He has beams that hit with 450 kilotons of TNT, that easily level cityblocks and have one-shotted kinetic barriers and dreadnought hulls. Valk's barriers are impressive but nowhere near tanking sustained beams of magnetohydrodynamic cannon.
Valk's defenses were potent enough to tank Lightsaber blows at point blank range. Want to argue potency of a Lightsaber now?

450 tons of TNT is going to do jack shit to a Force-user as powerful as Valkorion. The likes of Darth Vader, Darth Malgus, Arcann and Cade Skywalker have tanked extremely potent explosions.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by AncientPower
Nothing Valkorion has done in combat is going to effect Sovereign, meanwhile Sovereign is sporting doomray weapons that flatten pretty much anything.
Based on?

AncientPower
Did you seriously just suggest Valkorion is surviving the equivalent of a nuclear explosion 50 times more powerful than the bomb that destroyed Hiroshima, hitting him at a fraction of the speed of light?

Your bias knows no bounds.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by AncientPower
Did you seriously just suggest Valkorion is surviving the equivalent of a nuclear explosion 50 times more powerful than the bomb that destroyed Hiroshima, hitting him at a fraction of the speed of light?

Your bias knows no bounds.
Did you just assume that Valkorion is a physical being? Your stupidity knows no bounds.

To refresh your memory: http://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/s_w_legend/blog/cheating-corporeal-death-and-abilities-outside-a-c/126610/

AncientPower
This is physical Valkorion, he gets vaporised, and I highly doubt even his spirit is surviving the millions of degrees either, given spirits have been effected physically by comparative firecrackers in Star Wars.

Love how you changed the goal posts from "Valkorion's defenses can easily tank that" to "Valkorion isn't a physical being, idiot".

Concession accepted

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by AncientPower
This is physical Valkorion, he gets vaporised, and I highly doubt even his spirit is surviving the millions of degrees either, given spirits have been effected physically by comparative firecrackers in Star Wars.

Love how you changed the goal posts from "Valkorion's defenses can easily tank that" to "Valkorion isn't a physical being, idiot".

Concession accepted
laughing out loud

The worst thing you stated in a long time.

Your argument is utterly flawed and you show total lack of grasp of Valkorion's powers and capabilities.

http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111138626/5151701-5540297968-45637.jpg

If nukes and/or super-weapons could destroy Valkorion, the Republic or the Sith Empire would have used such weapons on Ziost. Once again, your stupidity knows no bounds.

Beniboybling
Lmao AP is on the money, Valkorion gets vaporised. smile

AncientPower
...So Darth Marr has no idea what Valkorion's limits are and that is somehow your justification for the second no-limits-fallacy in as many posts? Nice, you remember when you admitted that Valkorion may be destroyed by being thrown into a sun? That is called a limit, the epicenter of a 450 kiloton TNT explosion is also quite capable of being a 'limit'.

The spirits of Sidious, Exar Kun and Freedon Nadd have been vulnerable to physical energies that don't even slightly compare.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Lmao AP is on the money, Valkorion gets vaporised. smile
Since when you started taking her jokes or trolling seriously?

AncientPower
So not conceding to no limit fallacies equates to trolling now does it legend? Now I know what you're called that for, legendarily shocking logic.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by AncientPower
...So Darth Marr has no idea what Valkorion's limits are and that is somehow your justification for the second no-limits-fallacy in as many posts? Nice, you remember when you admitted that Valkorion may be destroyed by being thrown into a sun? That is called a limit, the epicenter of a 450 kiloton TNT explosion is also quite capable of being a 'limit'.

The spirits of Sidious, Exar Kun and Freedon Nadd have been vulnerable to physical energies that don't even slightly compare.
I never stated that Valkorion could be destroyed by throwing into the Sun.

We don't know what can stop Valkorion in all honesty. However, I don't think any superweapon can do the job. Valkorion is not a tangible being anymore.

Exar Kun and Freedon Nadd do not hold a candle to Valkorion's immortality. Their limitations do not apply to Valkorion.

Beniboybling
What are you implying LeG, that I should take your arguments seriously over AP? Lmao.

But anyway, seriously, what is your argument? Granted its possible that Sovereign would be unable to destroy Valkorion in incoporeal form, but can Valkorion destroy Sovereign in this condition? If not he'll essentially be forced to retreat and therefore would lose.

Simply put, Sovereign doesn't need to destroy Valkorion to win, just rout him.

AncientPower
Do you really want me to go back to that GEoM thread and prove you're lying?

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by AncientPower
Do you really want me to go back to that GEoM thread and prove you're lying?
Please do.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Beniboybling
What are you implying LeG, that I should take your arguments seriously over AP? Lmao.
I don't invent shit like her at the least.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
But anyway, seriously, what is your argument? Granted its possible that Sovereign would be unable to destroy Valkorion in incoporeal form, but can Valkorion destroy Sovereign in this condition? If not he'll essentially be forced to retreat and therefore would lose.

Simply put, Sovereign doesn't need to destroy Valkorion to win, just rout him.
Sovereign is a Starship, right?

You seriously think that a disembodied entity won't get inside and sabotage it from within?

Stick to discussing Star Wars for your own good.

AncientPower
Now he's mad. laughing out loud

Sovereign is billions of organic creatures, an entire race, assimilated into a singular will, harnessing a 'body', the Reaper capital ship.

If Valkorion is in a physical state, you realise Sovereign can indoctrinate his mind and he won't even have a clue. Said indoctrination can be instantaneous dependent on Sovereign's choosing. Given Sel'Makor could do it, Sovereign certainly should.

The Ellimist
Interestingly, a nuclear fireball can generate temperatures exceeding that of the core of a star. Valkorion could potentially be destroyed by the core of a star...

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Vitiate resisted Sel Makor tho.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Sovereign is a Starship, right?

You seriously think that a disembodied entity won't get inside and sabotage it from within?

Stick to discussing Star Wars for your own good. laughing out loud

cs_zoltan
Legend be like:

http://puu.sh/p19zI/c3301c0f6f.jpg

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by AncientPower
Now he's mad. laughing out loud

Sovereign is billions of organic creatures, an entire race, assimilated into a singular will, harnessing a 'body', the Reaper capital ship.

If Valkorion is in a physical state, you realise Sovereign can indoctrinate his mind and he won't even have a clue. Said indoctrination can be instantaneous dependent on Sovereign's choosing. Given Sel'Makor could do it, Sovereign certainly should.
You can't prove that Sovereign can indoctrinate Valkorion. Sel'Makor couldn't.

ares834
Sovereign easily. It's a far better villain as well.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Legend be like:

http://puu.sh/p19zI/c3301c0f6f.jpg

laughing out loud

The_Tempest
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Legend be like:

http://puu.sh/p19zI/c3301c0f6f.jpg

I'm guessing LeGenD is under the table.

MS Warehouse
Remind me what it took to take down Sovereign? Shepard, and a good portion of the Citadel's defenses? Hmmm I think that's something Vitiate could handle with one of his rituals.. But only AFTER he mindrapes the entire Citadel. I like Sovereign as a villain much better though.

cs_zoltan
Kek, it took the whole Human fleet. And even then it only depowered because Shepard killed Saren/Sovereign thingy.

MS Warehouse
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Kek, it took the whole Human fleet. And even then it only depowered because Shepard killed Saren/Sovereign thingy. Remind me, how big was the human fleet? I don't recall Sovereign powering down, I recall Shepard killing it.

The_Tempest
When Saren was killed, Sovereign was weakened due to the link between them since he was using Saren as an avatar.

ares834
Been awhile, but from what I recall, Shepard killed Saren and this caused Soverign to lose its shields for some stupid reason.

Edit: Ninjaed. ninja

cs_zoltan
Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Remind me, how big was the human fleet? I don't recall Sovereign powering down, I recall Shepard killing it.

Not sure, but in ME3 it also took the whole Migrant Fleet to kill a small Reaper.

Beniboybling
Relevant ground realities. smile

kWBmdAUiVAI

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Can Sovereign defeat Yog Sothoth tho smile

MS Warehouse
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Not sure, but in ME3 it also took the whole Migrant Fleet to kill a small Reaper.

I don't remember this part of the game but it's been a few years since I beat it.

cs_zoltan
MB45JgDo5CA

Fated Xtasy
I just wanna say, Soverign couldn't take down the Normandy with upgrades to its hull and shields, not sure how that affects anything but there ya go.

Also, if Valk is on a planet and just staring at Sovereign then he dies, doubt he can take that much firepower.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
I just wanna say, Soverign couldn't take down the Normandy with upgrades to its hull and shields, not sure how that affects anything but there ya go.

Also, if Valk is on a planet and just staring at Sovereign then he dies, doubt he can take that much firepower.
Valkorion's ability to cheat death is all that matters in the end.

No matter how much fans fellate Sovereign, it cannot stop Valkorion.

On the other hand, Valkorion will eventually get to Sovereign.

FreshestSlice
Because? Soverign doesn't need to destroy Valkorion's spirit to win.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Because? Soverign doesn't need to destroy Valkorion's spirit to win.
Correction: Sovereign cannot affect disembodied Valkorion.

When we consider Valkorion, we consider his true form. Not his masks.

ares834
Funny that we never did this for guys like Palpatine and all the other spirits.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Correction: Sovereign cannot affect disembodied Valkorion.

When we consider Valkorion, we consider his true form. Not his masks.
No. No, we don't.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
No. No, we don't.
Yes, we should.

Valkorion should be taken as a whole, not lessened to a Voice or avatar.

FreshestSlice
Nobody else gets that luxry; Valkorion won't either.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Nobody else gets that luxry; Valkorion won't either.
Will you consider the same rule for Abeloth?

FreshestSlice
If someone could vaporize Abeloth, then obviously I would. That is what nobody means.

cs_zoltan
I didn't think Legend could get any worse but lately he did.

"Valkorion wins...wait you mean the opponent is actually better than Valkorion? Then he still wins becuase they can't kill his spirit".

Petrus
LeGend, what you don't seem to understand is that this thread is not referring to Valkorion as a spiritual/disembodied entity, only to how his physical form would fare against Sovereign in combat. It's simply what the OP asked, not more and not less.

Selenial
Guys guys guys.

Its quite simple. Yoda also couldn't beat Obi Wan because he turns into a force ghost. Kenobi wins every time thumb up

Vitiate couldn't destroy IG-88 because IG-88 has a backup in another system. IG-88 wins every time thumb up

How aren't you getting this.

Petrus
Originally posted by Selenial
Guys guys guys.

Its quite simple. Yoda also couldn't beat Obi Wan because he turns into a force ghost. Kenobi wins every time thumb up

Vitiate couldn't destroy IG-88 because IG-88 has a backup in another system. IG-88 wins every time thumb up

How aren't you getting this.

You're right, we're so stupid.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Selenial
Guys guys guys.

Its quite simple. Yoda also couldn't beat Obi Wan because he turns into a force ghost. Kenobi wins every time thumb up

Vitiate couldn't destroy IG-88 because IG-88 has a backup in another system. IG-88 wins every time thumb up

How aren't you getting this.
Tbh, I planned on posting something similar to this, but the sheer retardation of such a statement was too much to handle.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
I didn't think Legend could get any worse but lately he did.

"Valkorion wins...wait you mean the opponent is actually better than Valkorion? Then he still wins becuase they can't kill his spirit".
A judgment like that coming from you is really really ironic, my friend.

1. This is a 'hypothetical' versus scenario! Assumptions will be made. We don't know that how much firepower Valkorion can actually tank. However, there are instances of lesser Force-users tanking considerable firepower. Valkorion might tank a nuke or worse; however, this assumption cannot be refuted nor adequately defended. Heck, Valkorion might unleash some power that may disorient and/or destroy even a sentient Starship like Sovereign (it may have some weaknesses that Force powers can get through more easily then lets say a Turbolaser). We have evidence of Valkorion downing scores of Starships mid-flight with his standard applications with minimum contact (and this too when his powers were weaker).

2. Valkorion evolved into an intangible (disembodied) entity with passage of time. He doesn't needs corporeal vessels to exist and function since the events of vanilla SWTOR. To dismiss this ground reality, is being disingenuous to Valkorion. When we consider him, we should consider him on the whole, not just his marks unless specified otherwise. A quick glance at the first post in this thread does not gives me the impression that Valkorion is restricted in this fight.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Petrus
LeGend, what you don't seem to understand is that this thread is not referring to Valkorion as a spiritual/disembodied entity, only to how his physical form would fare against Sovereign in combat. It's simply what the OP asked, not more and not less.
What you don't understand is that Valkorion can shed his mortal coil at will and continue to affect the external environment. However, it doesn't stops here; Valkorion can acquire or shed corporeal vessels ad-infinitum. He is like Abeloth in this aspect. He doesn't needs corporeal vessels to function and affect external environment. I am sorry if Palpatine did not became as powerful. But you cannot just impose silly restrictions upon Valkorion without understanding his very nature.

AncientPower
>basic universal versus forum standards
>'silly restrictions'

I've broken him. laughing out loud

carthage
Originally posted by Selenial
Guys guys guys.

Its quite simple. Yoda also couldn't beat Obi Wan because he turns into a force ghost. Kenobi wins every time thumb up

Vitiate couldn't destroy IG-88 because IG-88 has a backup in another system. IG-88 wins every time thumb up

How aren't you getting this.

10/10

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Selenial
Its quite simple. Yoda also couldn't beat Obi Wan because he turns into a force ghost. Kenobi wins every time thumb up
This is gross misunderstanding of ground realities at consideration here.

Obi-Wan Kenobi, after embracing ethereal plane, cannot affect external environment (to a significant extent) and neither he can acquire a mortal vessel for the said purpose. So, if he is killed, he won't be coming back to kill his killer; he's done for.

On the other hand, we have Valkorion who is similar to Abeloth; an abomination that defies the will of the Force. I don't feel the need to explain this further. Use your brain.

Originally posted by Selenial
Vitiate couldn't destroy IG-88 because IG-88 has a backup in another system. IG-88 wins every time thumb up

How aren't you getting this.
Bad example.

IG-88 needs to make a copy his programming and install it in another system to have a fail-safe backup. However, if the backup system is also destroyed, it would be the end of IG-88. Moreover, you cannot apply 'no-limits logic' here because IG-88 needs an adequately advanced hardware for his programming to be compatible with and function at full capability and such hardware won't be common.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by AncientPower
>basic universal versus forum standards
>'silly restrictions'

I've broken him. laughing out loud
With your braindead assumptions? Only braindead would take them seriously. laughing out loud

AncientPower
LeGenD you don't get it, as usual.

If all you can do is say 'keke teh ground realities makez Valkoriate immortal disembodied essences of bed, bath & beyond' then you've already conceded.

Not considering your no limits fallacy, Valkorion isn't even going to have the time to process becoming spiritual when he gets vaporised in the space of a fraction of a second.

Every time he's died he has had ample time to perform his whole 'evlz speeches hahaha I'm a Cthulhu' to become a spirit and continue his beardiness elsewhere. This time he won't even process the fact he's dead, he isn't getting stabbed he is getting utterly vaporised by a point blank nuclear-tier explosion to the face hitting him faster than he can think.

FreshestSlice
Nuclear-tier? Sovereign's cannon is well above that.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Valkorion who is similar to Abeloth; an abomination that should not exist.
Well you got something right.


Also lulz, he said ground realities.

AncientPower
It hits with 450 kt of TNT, which is just about 50 kt under an Ivy Rose.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by AncientPower
LeGenD you don't get it, as usual.

If all you can do is say 'keke teh ground realities makez Valkoriate immortal disembodied essences of bed, bath & beyond' then you've already conceded.

Not considering your no limits fallacy, Valkorion isn't even going to have the time to process becoming spiritual when he gets vaporised in the space of a fraction of a second.

Every time he's died he has had ample time to perform his whole 'evlz speeches hahaha I'm a Cthulhu' to become a spirit and continue his beardiness elsewhere. This time he won't even process the fact he's dead, he isn't getting stabbed he is getting utterly vaporised by a point blank nuclear-tier explosion to the face hitting him faster than he can think.
Valkorion can shed or gain mortal vessels ad-infinitum. He doesn't needs such vessels to affect external environment however. No amount of excuses can change this. Valkorion worked relentlessly to develop such a capability because (intangible) immortality is the ultimate form of protection against external threats. You cannot nuke ethereal stuff and call it a day.

And you underestimate Valkorion's reflexes and speed to a silly extent. Even an average Force-user have lightning-fast reflexes and Valkorion have killed opponents before they could even react at times. Any Starship - even sentient - needs time and target-acquisition to unleash its firepower on a target with precision. Valkorion can suppress his body heat and signature to an extent that Sovereign won't be able to lock on to him and would have to fire towards his position indiscriminately through visual assessment. However, Valkorion can conjure a Protection Bubble to shield himself from powerful explosions and energy weapons. Though I don't know how much protection a Protection Bubble may offer but it is believed to make the Force-user almost invulnerable to a large number of external threats for as long as it lasts. Assuming that a Protection Bubble is not enough, Valkorion also have the option to Teleport to safety.

The above being said, I do not dismiss the possibility of Valkorion being caught in the blast before he can Teleport to safety. It comes down to circumstances. No side is infallible while being tangible. It comes down to understanding your foe. In this case, both sides do not understand it each other much. But Valkorion would be aware of the fact that Starships can pack considerable firepower and can even be mobile superweapons. Therefore, I expect Valkorion to make better decisions.

FreshestSlice
Either answer what Valkorion will be able to do to kill Sovereign, or admit concession. Stop dancing.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Either answer what Valkorion will be able to do to kill Sovereign, or admit concession. Stop dancing.
Valkorion Teleports into Sovereign and destroy it from within /Thread.

FreshestSlice
Which would never work because Valkorion doesn't have the fire power to destroy a Reaper's core.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Which would never work because Valkorion doesn't have the fire power to destroy a Reaper's core.
You sure about that? Valkorion should be able to destabilize it at minimum.

Vaylin destabilized a much larger core in comparison. Exal Kressh also destabilized the core of a space station much larger then Sovereign.

Sinious
Post on my thread you ****ers

The Merchant
Vitiate actually does win this, I'm pretty sure he has the raw power to actually just TK the Sovereign out of the air.

AncientPower
Valkorion can't kill Sovereign, the Reaper Core will be protected by countless Geth and Reaper forces, as is standard for a Reaper compliment. Even if he got there, he would need to be hitting it with more firepower than he has ever been shown to employ... whilst getting attacked by the aforementioned compliment.

Also none of the cores you've mentioned even slightly compare to the magnitude of energy protecting a Reaper core. The one Shepard dismantled wad dormant and that took miniature nuclear blasts or a miniaturised Collector beam weapon.

Also, since when has Valkorion teleported through kinetic shields in the first place?

Reaper weaponry and sensory measures are unknown but that doesn't matter, when Sovereign can level a city sized area and vaporise everything within it.

AncientPower
Originally posted by The Merchant
Vitiate actually does win this, I'm pretty sure he has the raw power to actually just TK the Sovereign out of the air.

That is comical, Sovereign is protected by kinetic barriers that tanked a fleet of dreadnoughts firing at it. Has engines that can easily outmatch any TK Valkorion might muster and second of all Sovereign is a 2KM capital ship that is constructed out of hyperdense steel stronger than anything like durasteel.

Even if Valkoroon somehow managed to TK Sovereign down to the surface, it would simply land on its numerous legs and that would kill Valky too.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You sure about that? Valkorion should be able to destabilize it at minimum.

Vaylin destabilized a much larger core in comparison. Exal Kressh also destabilized the core of a space station much larger then Sovereign.
No, no he can't. Size isn't a determining factor.

The Merchant
Do you believe Vitiate is above Hord? If so, do you agree that Hord took down the Endar Spire-sized ship with his TK? The feat was calculated being equivalent to over hundreds of Kilotons of TNT in terms of Kinetic energy. If we continue using power scaling, Vitiate should scale somewhat from Pre DLOTS Exar Kun who blasted holes through the Massassi temples, temples that tanked full powered turbolaser strikes from a Super Star Destroyer.

Acclamator ships which are nothing to their Super incanrations have yields over 200 Gigatons of TNT, which is equal to over 200 million Kilotons of TNT. All that did to the Massassi temple walls was scorch them IIRC.

Mass Effect ships are MUCH weaker than ships in Star Wars, I really doubt whatever Sovereign is made of is stronger than Durasteel.

FreshestSlice
That might be some of the most retarded powerscaling logic I've ever seen.

AncientPower
The entire physics community might have called an emergency conference over that.

FreshestSlice
As for Sovereign's cannon's strength, the average Alliance dread, before Thanix was a thing, could produce much larger than nuclear-tier explosions with its main gun. Thanix is obviously a cut above.

It takes four of them with Thanix cannons targeting a reaper at once and with sustained firing to take down a Sovereign class reaper. A single reaper can cut through them like butter. Unless Valkorion can match the output of four dreadnoughts for several minutes and has the durability of unobtainium, he has no chance here. Full stop.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
No, no he can't. Size isn't a determining factor.
And I have to take your word for it?

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by AncientPower
Valkorion can't kill Sovereign, the Reaper Core will be protected by countless Geth and Reaper forces, as is standard for a Reaper compliment. Even if he got there, he would need to be hitting it with more firepower than he has ever been shown to employ... whilst getting attacked by the aforementioned compliment.
Valkorion can annihilate an entire populace. I am sure that he can solo the crew of Sovereign. Stop making idiotic assumptions.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Also none of the cores you've mentioned even slightly compare to the magnitude of energy protecting a Reaper core. The one Shepard dismantled wad dormant and that took miniature nuclear blasts or a miniaturised Collector beam weapon.
Right. None of that proves that the core is resistant to Dark Side energies and sorcery.

Apples and Oranges comparison.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Also, since when has Valkorion teleported through kinetic shields in the first place?
I get difference of opinion but your stupidity continues to surprise me. I never thought that you were capable of making such ignorant and idiotic assumptions.

The purpose of Teleportation is to bypass all obstacles in the path to reach a destination of desire. It doesn't matters how much a Starship is protected, it doesn't have an answer for arcane powers.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Reaper weaponry and sensory measures are unknown but that doesn't matter, when Sovereign can level a city sized area and vaporise everything within it.
Right.

I wonder why somebody didn't just subject Valkorion to firepower of similar magnitude in a span of centuries. There is no proof that these kind of tactics can defeat Valkorion.

Beniboybling
As possible it may be for Valkorion to Force grip Sovereign, he's certainly not doing it with any level of speed, so nothing is stopping Sovereign from zapping him in the attempt. And any impact would be shrugged off by its kinetic barriers.

As for Valkorion teleporting inside Sovereign? Why are we assuming that, despite having no knowledge of his opponent, Valkorion would take such intiative, before Sovereign had a chance to turn his powers against him? Ignoring the fact that its baseless to assume Valk can achieve such a feat of teleportation at all. mmm

Seems to me there's nothing Valk can really do in coporeal form to damage Soverign from outside or in in, whereas he's more likely that not going to be obliterated by Sovereigns own powers.

Now assuming that Valkorion manages to immediately recover from his coporeal death (which I'd remind everyone, there exists no hard evidence that he can) I'd still question whether he can undermine Sovereign in spiritual form, even from the inside. I highly doubt Force drain or TP would be effective against a sentient machine, and his dependency against the Outlander in incorporeal form suggest powers such as TK and Force lightning are not possible for him.

So what options does that leave him?

AncientPower
Wiping out some organics is one thing, dismantling a Reaper force that are highly resistant to all kinds of energy is another. There are infact swarms coming to meet Valkorion should he board in the first place.

Matter still has to transport to the place it is teleporting to, it's called wormhole physics genius. Go and get a basic scientific education before your next reply, though why'd you bother with such a losing argument in the first place is beyond me.

Anyway, please continue with your petty insults because it only affirms your lack of any solid rebuttals.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Beniboybling
As possible it may be for Valkorion to Force grip Sovereign, he's certainly not doing it with any level of speed, so nothing is stopping Sovereign from zapping him in the attempt. And any impact would be shrugged off by its kinetic barriers.
I believe that Valkorion can affect a vessel of that size with this telekinetic powers. But I agree that this may not be the recommended course of action due to shortage of time.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
As for Valkorion teleporting inside Sovereign? Why are we assuming that, despite having no knowledge of his opponent, Valkorion would take such intiative, before Sovereign had a chance to turn his powers against him? Ignoring the fact that its baseless to assume Valk can achieve such a feat of teleportation at all. mmm
Valkorion have demonstrated the capability to Teleport from one planet to another in disembodied form. However, corporeal beings can also perform Teleportation. Therefore, I don't see the reason why Valkorion cannot do the same when his understanding of the Force is superior to that of any Jedi and Sith?

If Valkorion have the powers to hit Sovereign from a great distance, I see him using them. If not, then I see the possibility of him Teleporting inside the Sovereign and wreck it from within. Valkorion is a master strategist and have lot of experience managing an Empire. I am sure that he can figure this all out.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Seems to me there's nothing Valk can really do in coporeal form to damage Soverign from the inside, whereas he's more likely that not going to be obliterated by Sovereigns own powers.
See above

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Now assuming that Valkorion manages to immediately recover from his coporeal death (which I'd remind everyone, there exists no hard evidence that he can)
Right.

Did you play KoTFE chapter 1?

FYI: https://i.imgur.com/K3jDQRO.webm

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I'd still question whether he can undermine Sovereign in spiritual form, even from the inside.
Seriously? roll eyes (sarcastic)

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I highly doubt Force drain or TP would be effective against a sentient machine, and his dependency against the Outlander in incorporeal form suggest powers such as TK and Force lightning are not possible for him.
Right.

Did you play KoTFE chapter 12?

FYI: https://i.imgur.com/NBrLtJd.webm

Originally posted by Beniboybling
So what options does that leave him?
See above

AncientPower
10/10 best rebuttal NA.

LeGenD your entire argument is assumption and everytime you enter Valk vs ____ match ups you automatically assume Valkorion will win despite your own complete ignorance regarding his opponent. Baseless assumptions are your bread and butter.

Nothing Valk has done with lightning even approaches the kind of damage output needed to have any effect on a Reaper Core.

But that's skipping over your 'baseless assumption' that Valkorion is f#cking Q and can teleport through shields, whilst being corporeal, despite a complete lack of evidence to support that claim.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by AncientPower
Wiping out some organics is one thing, dismantling a Reaper force that are highly resistant to all kinds of energy is another. There are infact swarms coming to meet Valkorion should he board in the first place.
FYI: https://i.imgur.com/7yF8ylj.webm

Did you see what that power did to Skytroopers?

Reaper force cannot be resistant to all kinds of energy. Don't post bullshit.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Matter still has to transport to the place it is teleporting to, it's called wormhole physics genius. Go and get a basic scientific education before your next reply, though why'd you bother with such a losing argument in the first place is beyond me.

Anyway, please continue with your petty insults because it only affirms your lack of any solid rebuttals.
I am sure that Force powers obey the laws of physics. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Beniboybling
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Valkorion have demonstrated the capability to Teleport from one planet to another in disembodied form. However, corporeal beings can also perform Teleportation. Therefore, I don't see the reason why Valkorion cannot do the same when his understanding of the Force is superior to that of any Jedi and Sith?Because coporeal and incoporeal beings are different? Of course being essentially formless is going to make you much more able to traverse great distances.

In this case Valkorion has to move his physical body, intact, from A to B, without line of sight no less, which is much more difficult and dangerous.Assuming it possible for him, unless he's capable of withstanding an exchange with Sovereign it ain't happening.Yes, and do you recall that it was only after 5 years after latching on to the Outlander that he remanifested? What proof is there he could have done so sooner, and if he could, why didn't he?

Arcann was right there, by your logic he could have dispatched him and dispensed with all the ensuing tomfoolery. Why shouldn't I assume he fell into another slumber like before?Why wouldn't I when you've failed to make a valid case?Are you going to raise some proof? Because I can't be bothered to decipher your meaning.And that answers my question how? I assume you can formulate some kind of response. laughing out loud

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by AncientPower
10/10 best rebuttal NA.

LeGenD your entire argument is assumption and everytime you enter Valk vs ____ match ups you automatically assume Valkorion will win despite your own complete ignorance regarding his opponent. Baseless assumptions are your bread and butter.
Your 'entire' argument is assumption.

And no! I don't favor Valkorion in a debate by default in every hypothetical contest. However, I will address idiotic assumptions whenever I will come across them.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Nothing Valk has done with lightning even approaches the kind of damage output needed to have any effect on a Reaper Core.

But that's skipping over your 'baseless assumption' that Valkorion is f#cking Q and can teleport through shields, whilst being corporeal, despite a complete lack of evidence to support that claim.
Right.

This is an assumption on your part.

AncientPower
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
FYI: https://i.imgur.com/7yF8ylj.webm

Did you see what that power did to Skytroopers?

Reaper force cannot be resistant to all kinds of energy. Don't post bullshit.


I am sure that Force powers obey the laws of physics. roll eyes (sarcastic)

If you think Skytroopers compare to Reaper forces you're utterly delusional.

>Reaper forces are designed to withstand pretty much all kinds of potential damage by mixing genetics.
>'bullshit'

I am sure that teleportation as explained in Legacy of the Force works identically to generic teleportation. On that matter, how is Valkorion going to know where to teleport to in the first place given the sheer danger in doing so?

AncientPower
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Your 'entire' argument is assumption.

And no! I don't favor Valkorion in a debate by default in every hypothetical contest. However, I will address idiotic assumptions whenever I will come across them.


Right.

This is an assumption on your part.

I've already explained what kind of heavy firepower is required to destroy a Reaper Core and Valk's lightning isn't even close.

Beniboybling
It also occurs to me that though a machine, Sovereign remains sentient, if Valkorion manages to assault his core he's not just going to sit and let it happen. More likely he'd divert the energy powering his external defenses to its own, making it theoretically just as impenetrable as its outer barriers, and certainly beyond Valkorion's abilities to break through.

AncientPower
Given that the one Shepard had destabilised was dormant for 37,000,000 years then I tend to agree.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Because coporeal and incoporeal beings are different? Of course being essentially formless is going to make you much more able to traverse great distances.

In this case Valkorion has to move his physical body, intact, from A to B, without line of sight no less, which is much more difficult and dangerous.
Tell that to Revan, Darth Jadus and the Dread Masters. Your argument is moot.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Assuming it possible for him, unless he's capable of withstanding an exchange with Sovereign it ain't happening.
How long do you think it takes a Force-user to Teleport from one location to another? I am sure that it doesn't takes a long time.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yes, and do you recall that it was only after 5 years after latching on to the Outlander that he remanifested? What proof is there he could have done so sooner, and if he could, why didn't he?
I don't think that Valkorion suffered any kind of setback after loosing his Voice on the throne. When his Voice was struck down, he laughed it off and proceeded to establish a Telepathic bond with the Outlander because he had an agenda to fulfill.

Chapter 12 proves that the Outlander was just a vessel that could be discarded by Valkorion at will.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Arcann was right there, by your logic he could have dispatched him and dispensed with all the ensuing tomfoolery. Why shouldn't I assume he fell into another slumber like before?
You really think that Valkorion could not eliminate Arcann? BioWare have a story to tell.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Why wouldn't I when you've failed to make a valid case?Are you going to raise some proof? Because I can't be bothered to decipher your meaning. And that answers my question how? I assume you can formulate some kind of response. laughing out loud
Yes.

Watch chapter 12: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCUV80skCOA

AncientPower
I'm beginning to remember some reason why boarding an active Reaper is suicidal, oh that's right, a large group of human diplomats boarded Harbinger and were instantaneously indoctrinated by his voice.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by AncientPower
If you think Skytroopers compare to Reaper forces you're utterly delusional.

>Reaper forces are designed to withstand pretty much all kinds of potential damage by mixing genetics.
>'bullshit'
Genetics can defeat Force powers? I wonder why nobody ever thought of that in Star Wars. mmm

Originally posted by AncientPower
I am sure that teleportation as explained in Legacy of the Force works identically to generic teleportation.
That doesn't proves that Force powers obey the laws of physics. They actually do not.

Do you have a scientific explanation of Force Lightning? I suppose that you assume it to be electricity. laughing out loud

Originally posted by AncientPower
On that matter, how is Valkorion going to know where to teleport to in the first place given the sheer danger in doing so?
Valkorion have Force sense, you know.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by AncientPower
I'm beginning to remember some reason why boarding an active Reaper is suicidal, oh that's right, a large group of human diplomats boarder Harbinger and were instantaneously indoctrinated by his voice.
Right.

Valkorion is defenseless like human diplomats. Your brain is not functioning at the moment.

Petrus
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
What you don't understand is that Valkorion can shed his mortal coil at will and continue to affect the external environment. However, it doesn't stops here; Valkorion can acquire or shed corporeal vessels ad-infinitum. He is like Abeloth in this aspect. He doesn't needs corporeal vessels to function and affect external environment. I am sorry if Palpatine did not became as powerful. But you cannot just impose silly restrictions upon Valkorion without understanding his very nature.

Originally posted by Selenial

Its quite simple. Yoda also couldn't beat Obi Wan because he turns into a force ghost. Kenobi wins every time thumb up

Vitiate couldn't destroy IG-88 because IG-88 has a backup in another system. IG-88 wins every time thumb up

How aren't you getting this.

S_W_LeGenD
^^^

That is a pathetic argument and I have already addressed it the relevant thread.

cs_zoltan
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4043/4355604076_db97b9a67d.jpg

AncientPower
Dodging the point I see, Valkorion isn't just FLSing his way through an entire Reaper compliment if you believe that is the case.

Dodging the point, again.

Force sense is hardly infallible LeGenD.

Furthermore care to explain why Valkorion is almost certainly going to opt for teleporting into something he has no prior comprehension of?

Give me one reason and I might make it Harbinger 9/10 wins, assuming you explain how Valkorion survives being inside a Reaper.

AncientPower
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Right.

Valkorion is defenseless like human diplomats. Your brain is not functioning at the moment.

Because Valk's TP has any relevancy on Indoctrination, another baseless assumption. Indoctrination isn't a mental assault, it's a sonic subliminal effect that Valkorion has no reason to expect or know how to counter.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by AncientPower
Dodging the point I see, Valkorion isn't just FLSing his way through an entire Reaper compliment if you believe that is the case.
On what grounds are you assuming that genetics is sufficient to make Force powers a moot point?

Originally posted by AncientPower
Dodging the point, again.
You are dodging my points! Not me.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Force sense is hardly infallible LeGenD.
Yes, but it works in most of the situations. And Valkorion is a master of all spectrums of the Force.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Furthermore care to explain why Valkorion is almost certainly going to opt for teleporting into something he has no prior comprehension of?
If Valkorion have the powers to hit Sovereign from a great distance, I see him using them. If not, then I see the possibility of him Teleporting inside the Sovereign and wreck it from within. Valkorion is a master strategist and have lot of experience managing an Empire. He also have Force sense at his disposal. I am sure that he can figure this all out.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Give me one reason and I might make it Harbinger 9/10 wins, assuming you explain how Valkorion survives being inside a Reaper.
You can think whatever you want to, your assumptions are not credible.

Petrus
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
^^^

That is a pathetic argument and I have already addressed it the relevant thread.

Really not a pathetic argument, KEK. Why you just cannot grasp the concept of physical Valkorion vs. Sovereign is beyond my understanding.

I'm also pretty damn sure that if this thread was something like Physical Valkorion vs. TPM Kenobi you'd simply say that physical Valkorion stomps, rather than getting into the subject that he's a disembodied all-powerful being and how only using him as a physical entity doesn't work because blah blah. In this case, because you know it's hard for the physical incarnation of Valkorion to beat Sovereign 1v1, you utilize logic that will assure Valkorion a victory even when that's not even what the OP asked. Your bias truly knows no bounds.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by AncientPower
Because Valk's TP has any relevancy on Indoctrination, another baseless assumption. Indoctrination isn't a mental assault, it's a sonic subliminal effect that Valkorion has no reason to expect or know how to counter.
I am not sure why you mentioned TP here? Defensive applications of the Force would be relevant here.

I am sure that Valkorion can shrug-off effects of sonic weapons on his mind.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Tell that to Revan, Darth Jadus and the Dread Masters. Your argument is moot.When have Jadus or the Dread Masters teleported over such distances? Revan seems the only relevant argument here but the circumstances of the feat are largerly unknown.Irrelevant, you said so yourself that if Valkorion could destroy him from the outside he would attempt, which he will, and he'd have to survive the ensuing barrage to be in a position to change up his strategy (which would itself take time to figure out) and teleported into his innards. Which is very unlikely to happen.But he did, he lost his body, his throne and Arcann ran his Empire into the ground. That is a setback, the fact that Valkorion was confident he could recover doesn't change that reality, nor preclude some nap time before he was able to do so.

Especially if we consider this in the contexts of a being millenia old, 5 years is nothing to him, and for a person who creates empires for lols, its no suprise he was unperturbed by the prospect of Arcann doing it some damage.Does it also prove Valkorion could effect the enviroment in sufficiently profound ways to destroy Sovereign without the Outlander as a conduit?At full strength? No, but evidently he was far from it. :upmessedo Valkorion can hurt the Outlander in a vision? What's new?

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Petrus
Really not a pathetic argument, KEK. Why you just cannot grasp the concept of physical Valkorion vs. Sovereign is beyond my understanding.

I'm also pretty damn sure that if this thread was something like Physical Valkorion vs. TPM Kenobi you'd simply say that physical Valkorion stomps, rather than getting into the subject that he's a disembodied all-powerful being and how only using him as a physical entity doesn't work because blah blah. In this case, because you know it's hard for the physical incarnation of Valkorion to beat Sovereign 1v1, you utilize logic that will assure Valkorion a victory even when that's not even what the OP asked. Your bias truly knows no bounds.
I have addressed this argument before:

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This is gross misunderstanding of ground realities at consideration here.

Obi-Wan Kenobi, after embracing ethereal plane, cannot affect external environment (to a significant extent) and neither he can acquire a mortal vessel for the said purpose. So, if he is killed, he won't be coming back to kill his killer; he's done for.

On the other hand, we have Valkorion who is similar to Abeloth; an abomination that defies the will of the Force. I don't feel the need to explain this further. Use your brain.

Bad example.

IG-88 needs to make a copy his programming and install it in another system to have a fail-safe backup. However, if the backup system is also destroyed, it would be the end of IG-88. Moreover, you cannot apply 'no-limits logic' here because IG-88 needs an adequately advanced hardware for his programming to be compatible with and function at full capability and such hardware won't be common.

- You should read the thread before re-quoting someone else's argument.

Petrus
You're impossible. I can't even.

Selenial
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This is gross misunderstanding of ground realities at consideration here.

Obi-Wan Kenobi, after embracing ethereal plane, cannot affect external environment (to a significant extent) and neither he can acquire a mortal vessel for the said purpose. So, if he is killed, he won't be coming back to kill his killer; he's done for.

On the other hand, we have Valkorion who is similar to Abeloth; an abomination that defies the will of the Force. I don't feel the need to explain this further. Use your brain.


Bad example.

IG-88 needs to make a copy his programming and install it in another system to have a fail-safe backup. However, if the backup system is also destroyed, it would be the end of IG-88. Moreover, you cannot apply 'no-limits logic' here because IG-88 needs an adequately advanced hardware for his programming to be compatible with and function at full capability and such hardware won't be common.

I wish to ask you a question.

Valkorion vs a Stick, who wins, In your opinion? Stick wins everytime. Pls divert your answer to the relevant thread: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f86/t626839.html

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Beniboybling
When have Jadus or the Dread Masters teleported over such distances? Revan seems the only relevant argument here but the circumstances of the feat are largerly unknown.
Darth Jadus

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11122/111222381/4481299-5691729980-s5Unm.gif

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11122/111222381/4481300-2393409239-dY5d3.gif

Revan

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4539207-0759655612-vVbdq.gif

---

The Dread Master Raptus not just Teleported himself but also his enemies to the Sanctuary of Nightmares during the operation against them. He brought his enemies there so he would have a greater chance at defeating them in that setting.

---

Satisfied?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Irrelevant, you said so yourself that if Valkorion could destroy him from the outside he would attempt, which he will, and he'd have to survive the ensuing barrage to be in a position to change up his strategy and teleported into his innards. Which is very unlikely to happen.
I am sure that Valkorion can buy sufficient time for himself to Teleport himself safety and then into the Sovereign.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
But he did, he lost his body, his throne and Arcann ran his Empire into the ground. That is a setback, the fact that Valkorion was confident he could recover doesn't change that reality, nor preclude some nap time before he was able to do so.

Especially if we consider this in the contexts of a being millenia old, 5 years is nothing to him, and for a person who creates empires for lols, its no suprise he was unperturbed by the prospect of Arcann doing it some damage.
I don't think that Valkorion cares much about any Empire. To him, everything is a means to an end. Valkorion could dispatch Arcann at any time he wanted to but he wants the Outlander to do it for reasons he knows best. The story is still in progress, remember?

You can also look at the developments on Ziost to learn that Valkorion doesn't needs crude matter to function and affect external environment. Loss of a corporeal vessel does not effects him much.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Does it also prove Valkorion could effect the enviroment in sufficiently profound ways to destroy Sovereign without the Outlander as a conduit.
Why not? He utterly dominated the Outlander and would have killed him if he wanted to. However, his objective was not to kill the Outlander but to prepare him for the worse and consider taking the throne. I think that Valkorion wants to make the Outlander his herald.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
At full strength? No, but evidently he was far from it. thumb up
Wut? laughing out loud

Originally posted by Beniboybling
So Valkorion can hurt the Outlander in a vision? What's new?
Those are not visions.

"What is this? Another illusion?" (The Outlander)

"The time for fantasy is over. What happens now is quite real." (Valkorion)

thumb up

Selenial
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
"What is this? Another illusion?" (The Outlander)

"The time for fantasy is over. What happens now is quite real." (Valkorion)

laughing out loud

https://youtu.be/jM3dRKpRots?t=4m40s

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Selenial
I wish to ask you a question.

Valkorion vs a Stick, who wins, In your opinion? Stick wins everytime. Pls divert your answer to the relevant thread: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f86/t626839.html
I will not be baited by trolling.

Come up with an argument that makes sense and we will talk.

Selenial
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I will not be baited by trolling.

Come up with an example that makes sense and we will talk.

No, it's serious.

Tell me how Vitiate wins.

S_W_LeGenD
^^^

Don't expect a response to such a silly question.

Selenial
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
^^^

Don't expect a response to such a silly question.

I'll accept your concession if you do not post a single method which, by your own logic displayed in this thread, would lead to Vitiate winning over the stick.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Selenial
I'll accept your concession if you do not post a single method which, by your own logic displayed in this thread, would lead to Vitiate winning over the stick.
Come to the point.

Selenial
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Come to the point.

Give me a single method smile

This isn't a ****ing trick question, just answer it.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Darth Jadus

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11122/111222381/4481299-5691729980-s5Unm.gif

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11122/111222381/4481300-2393409239-dY5d3.gif

Revan

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4539207-0759655612-vVbdq.gif

---

The Dread Master Raptus not just Teleported himself but also his enemies to the Sanctuary of Nightmares during the operation against them. He brought his enemies there so he would have a greater chance at defeating them in that setting.

---

Satisfied?The Sanctuary of Nightmares appears to be some kind of constructed space that could well feature an artifice allowing the Dread Masters to teleport there, the circumstances of Revan's feat are unknown and Jadus did not teleport across such a distance we are discussing. So not really.I don't. Was Talzin able to buy herself time to teleport away from Sidious? No. And in the situation as far as power is concerned, Valkorion is far more outmatched.You haven't proven that, your just assuming it, and the fact that the story is still in progression only proves you do not have all the answers.

Fact is the last time Valkorion was destroyed he fell into a slumber, only achieving those feats on Ziost you refer to after recovering from his strength. And I have yet to see any proof that suggests this period of recuperation is no longer required.Assuming for a moment that that didn't happen inside his head, the Outlander is nowhere near as powerful as Sovereign. ermYou have comprehension issues?Selenial's summed this up rather aptly, evidently this is distinct from the illusions he projected before, as Valkorion and the Outlander are very much real, but the fact remains this is all happening inside the Outlander's head. Self evident from the fact that whenever Valkorion appears, including in this instance, the image becomes blurred and vision-like to signify its distinction from physical reality.

So unless Valkorion can get inside Sovereign's head (he can't) I don't see him affecting him with his powers.

Revanchiste
Nice match-up !

SunRazer
Asking how Vitiate wins isn't a silly question, lmfao. Calling it silly is pretty much an admission that you've got nothing left. It's over, Legend. Just answer the question, or give up.

AncientPower
I one-shotted his argument and made him backtrack on page one, so he lost long before that.

LeGenDary logic: Palming lightsabers = tanking the epicenter of a 450 KT TNT blast.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Beniboybling
The Sanctuary of Nightmares appears to be some kind of constructed space that could well feature an artifice allowing the Dread Masters to teleport there,
There is an additional example to consider: Dread Masters Tyrans made extensive use of Teleportation during his confrontation with the Strike Team.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
the circumstances of Revan's feat are unknown and Jadus did not teleport across such a distance we are discussing. So not really.
What kind of circumstances? Revan decided to Teleport himself to safety from the Foundry and I have provided visual confirmation of this action-sequence.

Dread Masters, Darth Jadus and Revan reveal that Teleportation is possible in corporeal form and it can be done quickly.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I don't. Was Talzin able to buy herself time to teleport away from Sidious? No. And in the situation as far as power is concerned, Valkorion is far more outmatched.
You are assuming a scenario in which Valkorion is actually caught in the blast. Assuming that Valkorion conjures a Protection Bubble to shield himself from the firepower of Sovereign, it may buy him sufficient time to Teleport to safety before it is compromised.

However, there is an additional possibility: should Valkorion decide that the best course of action is to get inside the Sovereign instead of engaging it out in the open from the get-go, he should be able to pull if off before he is subjected to firepower.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
You haven't proven that, your just assuming it, and the fact that the story is still in progression only proves you do not have all the answers.
Valkorion could one-shot Arcann: https://i.imgur.com/M5qzcrn.webm

Don't you think he could kill Arcann during the moment of Arcann's vulnerability (i.e. lying unconscious on the ground)? Yes, he could.

But let us look at this matter from another angle: If you refuse to bend the knee (as the Outlander), Valkorion instructs Arcann to kill the Outlander. Now, does this imply that Valkorion could not kill the Outlander himself? He certainly could.

However, BioWare have a story to tell. And your stance is utterly flawed.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Fact is the last time Valkorion was destroyed he fell into a slumber, only achieving those feats on Ziost you refer to after recovering from his strength. And I have yet to see any proof that suggests this period of recuperation is no longer required.
Valkorion fell into slumber because disruption of his (ultimate) ritual backfired on him and his Voice was struck down on top of it. These setbacks, collectively, took a huge toll on him.

However, loss of a Voice (alone) doesn't affects Valkorion to a significant extent. This is apparent from the fact that a Voice was downed on planet Voss and this loss had no detrimental effect on the well-being of Valkorion.

Ziost related developments are covered here: http://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/s_w_legend/blog/cataclysm-of-planet-ziost/105050/

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Assuming for a moment that that didn't happen inside his head, the Outlander is nowhere near as powerful as Sovereign. erm
My intention is not to compare the Outlander with Sovereign. Your argument was that Valkorion was restricted in the use of the Force during disembodied form and I provided evidence to the contrary.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
You have comprehension issues?
See above

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Selenial's summed this up rather aptly, evidently this is distinct from the illusions he projected before, as Valkorion and the Outlander are very much real, but the fact remains this is all happening inside the Outlander's head. Self evident from the fact that whenever Valkorion appears, including in this instance, the image becomes blurred and vision-like to signify its distinction from physical reality.
If that was all in the Outlander's head, then how come he emerged stronger and more capable Force-user from the ordeal?

"I cannot stay to protect you any longer. There are matters to which I must attend... but I will leave you with a final token of my favor." (Valkorion)

Valkorion noticed that the Outlander was growing complacent with passage of time and needed a wake-up call because Valkorion won't babysit him for long.

The blurry effect is just game mechanics.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
So unless Valkorion can get inside Sovereign's head (he can't) I don't see him affecting him with his powers.
Valkorion would be capable of affecting machinery (e.g. he prevented a communication device from working in Chapter 12). However, my position is that Valkorion can Teleport himself into Sovereign and sabotage it from within.

Of-course, Sovereign would attempt to combat Valkorion within but a vessel is most vulnerable from the inside. Its external defenses (no matter how good) are largely irrelevant in this scenario.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by AncientPower
I one-shotted his argument and made him backtrack on page one, so he lost long before that.

LeGenDary logic: Palming lightsabers = tanking the epicenter of a 450 KT TNT blast.
You one-shotted jack here. You are coming up with more ridculous assumptions by the hour.

Valkorion cannot hurt the Reapers because of their genetics.... roll eyes (sarcastic)

Sovereign would indoctrinate Valkorion because he indoctrinated some politicians. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Beniboybling
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
There is an additional example to consider: Dread Masters Tyrans made extensive use of Teleportation during his confrontation with the Strike Team.But not over the distances being discussed.The unknown ones? We don't know where Revan teleported to for one, and as in a near-death state, we don't know if this feat was a one-off/oneness accomplishment.Over short distances and/or with a connection to the target.That would constiute getting caught in a blast, again Mother Talzin erected a "Protection Bubble" against Sidious, that didn't give her a means to escape. It stands to reason that in such a situation Valkorion couldn't afford to divert his power and attention without dropping his barrier and being destroyed, as was the case with Talzin.

And I doubt any defense he could erect would last long or at all against Sovereign.How? With no knowledge that his opponent even has insides he can teleport into?Cool, doesn't prove he can do it in non-corporeal form. Which is the point, we've no reason to assume he'd be stronger enough immediately after losing his form.

And notice how I'm ignoring your "but PIS" arguments, because its an arbitrary cop-out.You're not accounting for the fact that that all Valkorion's power was not stored in that Voice, that is not the case here.

Nor does this answer the question of why it took 5 years for Valkorion to return.I asked you what powers Valkorion had displayed in incoporeal form that could harm Sovereign, this was your reponse. I assume your inability to answer the question is a concession he has none, rendering your point rather moot.Because Valkorion invested him with his powers? Just because its happening in his head doesn't mean Valkorion can't effect tangible results.Which are not arbitrary, this one being intended to indicate to the player the sequence is happening in his head.Right, and as I said there is nothing stopping Sovereign diverting power from his external defenses to his internal ones, rending him just as invulnerable on the inside. thumb up

AncientPower
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You one-shotted jack here. You are coming up with more ridiculous assumptions by the hour.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Valk's defenses were potent enough to tank Lightsaber blows at point blank range. Want to argue potency of a Lightsaber now?

450 tons of TNT is going to do jack shit to a Force-user as powerful as Valkorion. The likes of Darth Vader, Darth Malgus, Arcann and Cade Skywalker have tanked extremely potent explosions.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Did you seriously just suggest Valkorion is surviving the equivalent of a nuclear explosion 50 times more powerful than the bomb that destroyed Hiroshima, hitting him at a fraction of the speed of light?

Your bias knows no bounds.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Did you just assume that Valkorion is a physical being? Your stupidity knows no bounds.

To refresh your memory: http://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/s_w_legend/blog/cheating-corporeal-death-and-abilities-outside-a-c/126610/

You made a ridiculous assertion that Valk can survive a blast from a Reaper Capital Ship's main cannon, when I exposed how stupid that claim was you backtracked.

Total Warrior
Sovereign was powerful enough to annihilate the citadel fleet and would have likely stomped the shit out of the whole human fleet had Shepard not killed Saren. Sovereign wins hands down

The Ellimist
Tbf the Citadel fleet isn't much by Star Wars standards. Every ship the citadel races ever built would collectively lose to a single star destroyer.

MS Warehouse
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Tbf the Citadel fleet isn't much by Star Wars standards. Every ship the citadel races ever built would collectively lose to a single star destroyer.

thumb up

Aside from the Reapers and possibly the Collectors, Mass Effect military technology is vastly inferior to star wars tech.

FreshestSlice
It's legit retarded to think a star destroyer can solo ME.

Fated Xtasy
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Valkorion's ability to cheat death is all that matters in the end.

No matter how much fans fellate Sovereign, it cannot stop Valkorion.

On the other hand, Valkorion will eventually get to Sovereign.

Actually i just remembered that was a collector base, not a reaper.

Sovereign needed to he destroyed by the combined might of the Turian, Asari, Salarian and human forces to be completely destroyed

And it's suggested this was mostly due to Sovereign inhabiting Saren's body.


Valkorion losing once is enough, the scenario put before us suggests he is still in his "mortal coil" so to speak. So his mortal form will die again and again.

The Ellimist
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
It's legit retarded to think a star destroyer can solo ME.

If you look at the actual technical specifications? A dreadnought's mass driver cannon is like 35 kilotons. A single medium turbolaser from an Accalamator medium troop transport is almost ten millions times more energetic. Your gut feeling aside, there's nothing in Mass Effect that could conceivably scratch a shielded and operational Acclamator, like alone an ISD. thumb up

Petrus
The Reapers would do a lot more than a scratch.

Total Warrior
Originally posted by The Ellimist
If you look at the actual technical specifications? A dreadnought's mass driver cannon is like 35 kilotons. A single medium turbolaser from an Accalamator medium troop transport is almost ten millions times more energetic. Your gut feeling aside, there's nothing in Mass Effect that could conceivably scratch a shielded and operational Acclamator, like alone an ISD. thumb up Yeah, mass effect ships are comparable to Star Trek maybe

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by The Ellimist
If you look at the actual technical specifications? A dreadnought's mass driver cannon is like 35 kilotons. A single medium turbolaser from an Accalamator medium troop transport is almost ten millions times more energetic. Your gut feeling aside, there's nothing in Mass Effect that could conceivably scratch a shielded and operational Acclamator, like alone an ISD. thumb up
Continuous fire from all directions totes can't effect a ship, especially if the entire galaxy did it. That's just logic of the most retar...I mean, intelligent kind.

The Ellimist
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Continuous fire from all directions totes can't effect a ship, especially if the entire galaxy did it. That's just logic of the most retar...I mean, intelligent kind.

> ignores actual numbers
> makes vague appeal to personal incredulity

10/10, you're really a Star Wars legend. thumb up

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Beniboybling
But not over the distances being discussed.
Why is distance even an argument? Nowhere it is implied that masters of this ability face significant range-related restrictions.

Assume that a master of this talent is on a planet; he should be able to teleport himself into any location or man-made structure he wants to on the planet.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
The unknown ones? We don't know where Revan teleported to for one, and as in a near-death state, we don't know if this feat was a one-off/oneness accomplishment.
1. Revan must have teleported himself to a distant location; he left the Foundry (remember?). No chance of ifs and buts here.

2. Revan also demonstrated Teleportation during his battle against a large Strike Team on Yavin 4.

Therefore, your argument is moot.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Over short distances and/or with a connection to the target.
Distance should not be a problem! See above.

And we are not discussing scientific methods of teleportation that may require some sort of connection to the destination; we are discussing magical abilities and there is no logic in them.

In this hypothetical contest, I am assuming that Valkorion makes visual contact with the Sovereign and should be able to figure out a way to get inside by virtue of Force sense and basic understanding of design of Starships. Teleportation talent sounds like a good plan.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
That would constiute getting caught in a blast, again Mother Talzin erected a "Protection Bubble" against Sidious, that didn't give her a means to escape. It stands to reason that in such a situation Valkorion couldn't afford to divert his power and attention without dropping his barrier and being destroyed, as was the case with Talzin.
1. Teleportation (and/or a similar act) takes only an instant to perform. Look no further then the showings of Darth Jadus, Father and Mother Talzin.

http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/11122/111222381/4496056-4366825070-wvr7A.gif

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11122/111222381/4481299-5691729980-s5Unm.gif

2. Revan performed Teleportation while erecting a Protection Bubble.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4539207-0759655612-vVbdq.gif

Darth Jadus, Dread Master Tyrans, Revan and Mother Talzin have performed Teleportation (and/or similar acts) in extremely dire situations to escape death.

Valkorion doesn't needs to erect a shield and then Teleport. He should be able to perform this act in an instant.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
And I doubt any defense he could erect would last long or at all against Sovereign.
Giving your point the benefit of doubt, I wonder why his enemies did not employ this tactic against him... mmm

If one of the greatest threats to the entire galaxy could be defeated so easily, somebody would have attempted this strategy in a span of centuries. Don't you think?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
How? With no knowledge that his opponent even has insides he can teleport into?
See above

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Cool, doesn't prove he can do it in non-corporeal form. Which is the point, we've no reason to assume he'd be stronger enough immediately after losing his form.

And notice how I'm ignoring your "but PIS" arguments, because its an arbitrary cop-out.
He can ravage/kill an entire world in disembodied form and you think that he cannot tackle Arcann in this manner? roll eyes (sarcastic)

Originally posted by Beniboybling
You're not accounting for the fact that that all Valkorion's power was not stored in that Voice, that is not the case here.
Valkorion had a single Voice at any given time. Additional extensions of his will were described as his Children.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Nor does this answer the question of why it took 5 years for Valkorion to return.
Because he wants the Outlander to do the dirty work? He have already alienated the Sith, alienating another civilization won't be advisable.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I asked you what powers Valkorion had displayed in incoporeal form that could harm Sovereign, this was your reponse. I assume your inability to answer the question is a concession he has none, rendering your point rather moot.
Telekinesis?
Force Lightning?
Force blast?

Tell me what options he doesn't have at his disposal.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Because Valkorion invested him with his powers? Just because its happening in his head doesn't mean Valkorion can't effect tangible results.
Sorry, not buying this.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Which are not arbitrary, this one being intended to indicate to the player the sequence is happening in his head.
Proof?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Right, and as I said there is nothing stopping Sovereign diverting power from his external defenses to his internal ones, rending him just as invulnerable on the inside. thumb up
Sovereign is a sentient AI, not a god.

Nothing implies that Sovereign can do that.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by AncientPower
You made a ridiculous assertion that Valk can survive a blast from a Reaper Capital Ship's main cannon, when I exposed how stupid that claim was you backtracked.
See my response to arguments of Beniboybling right above. Your argument is covered.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Sovereign is a sentient AI, not a god.

Nothing implies that Sovereign can do that.
A reaper does that in ME2. erm

Seriously, just google.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by The Ellimist
> ignores actual numbers
> makes vague appeal to personal incredulity

10/10, you're really a Star Wars legend. thumb up
Yeah, you just made a claim that because a ISD's main gun is 1337, it can solo a galaxy, all evidence to the contrary. But I'm making the baseless insinuations.

The Ellimist
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Yeah, you just made a claim that because a ISD's main gun is 1337, it can solo a galaxy, all evidence to the contrary. But I'm making the baseless insinuations.

Show me this evidence you've been hiding then. The numbers tell us that a dreadnought's guns are to an ISD's shields what a pebble is to a tank.

FreshestSlice
No, no, it doesn't. The dreadnought's main gun in ME3 is as powerful as Sovereigns, not 35 kilotons, which is why you're wrong. It's be like throwing multiple grenades at a tank, only from the entire galaxy. Even frigates and smaller cruisers have thanix canons by that point, as well as torpedoes. Eventually, the ISD would go down. Full stop.

The Ellimist
Even Sovereign's barely breaks the megatons, which Slave 1 can outmatch lol.

The fleet we see at the end of ME3 isn't big enough. You could theorize that if the star destroyer just sat there they could eventually spam enough ships to break it, but certainly not before their home worlds have been burned.

FreshestSlice
Who cares? Stop moving the goal post. And even if we count the very end, they'd have the Crucible, which would vaporize any ISD, lel.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
A reaper does that in ME2. erm

Seriously, just google.
Every major starship have internal defenses. Sovereign would not be an exception to this norm either. However, internal defenses are typically different from external defenses. This distinction is due to the fact that external threats tend to differ from internal threats and also due to design-related considerations.

For example, you can equip a starship with long-range missiles but these missiles are expected to be used against external threats, not internally.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Actually i just remembered that was a collector base, not a reaper.

Sovereign needed to he destroyed by the combined might of the Turian, Asari, Salarian and human forces to be completely destroyed

And it's suggested this was mostly due to Sovereign inhabiting Saren's body.


Valkorion losing once is enough, the scenario put before us suggests he is still in his "mortal coil" so to speak. So his mortal form will die again and again.
Look! Sovereign is not designed to defeat threats like Valkorion. It is designed to fight different kinds of enemies and might be very good at that.

Valkorion have surprised us before with his powers and he may have more trump cards at his disposal. The full extent of his abilities are unknown. Moreover, I have explained that how Valkorion can take this fight into the Sovereign itself.

Beniboybling
This is getting somewhat tedious so I'm going to slim down my responses to the most relevant stuff, i.e. that which operates under the assumption Valkorion can teleport across large distances, recover from spiritual form instantly and affect the enviroment in this form; or rather that he has something resembling a hope and prayer of winning. smileOriginally posted by S_W_LeGenD
In this hypothetical contest, I am assuming that Valkorion makes visual contact with the Sovereign and should be able to figure out a way to get inside by virtue of Force sense and basic understanding of design of Starships. Teleportation talent sounds like a good plan.And Sovereign is just going to sit around and wait for him to finish his probing? Right.You bring up Mother Talzin of all people? Yes Talzin was able to teleport when under fire from some battle droids, but not when pinned down by the full power of Sidious' Force lightning:

http://i.imgur.com/wo0EnH7.png

She did not teleport then. And I'm not seeing how Jadus, the Dread Masters or Revan can be said to have been under remotely similar circumstances.

Valkorion doesn't needs to erect a shield and then Teleport. He should be able to perform this act in an instant. When did they have an opportunity? When the galaxy turned against Valkorion he never manifested corporeally once.

And its not as if they have intimate knowledge of what he can withstand, most people would probably assume an orbital bombardment would do the trick. So if they could and done it, they would have at least tried. thumb upOriginally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Telekinesis?
Force Lightning?
Force blast?

Tell me what options he doesn't have at his disposal.That's not what I asked, I asked for proof he can conjure these powers in sufficient magnitude to destroy Sovereign. Stomping the Outlander does not prove this.laughing out loud

Friend, for one Sovereign is a sentient AI so advanced that he resembles a god, and was seen by many as one.

But more importantly Sovereign also has internal shields protecting his core, he also has the ability to wield element zero, and for that reason, project mass effect fields as he pleases. Therefore its absolutely inferrable that Sovereign can both divert power to existing internal shields and generate new ones as needed.

And this is not exactly a novel concept, even basic ships in Star Wars can divert power to shields from other areas. Sovereign is infinitely more advanced.

Syndicate
Tbh Beni didn't read much of that post but since she willingly sacrificed herself for Maul it's not like she'd just teleport and leave her son hanging.

Beniboybling
Meh all he had to do was get to a transport, if Maul hadn't dallied/struggled Talzin should have lasted long enough for him to get aboard and for her to teleport on with him.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Sounds too convoluted for the writers to give a shit. smile

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