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Jeez. Yoda gets dismantled. One of those would be more of a fair fight.

Team.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Jeez. Yoda gets dismantled. One of those would be more of a fair fight.

Yoda vs Sadow isn't fair...

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Jeez. Yoda gets dismantled. One of those would be more of a fair fight. Well, there is that new quote suggesting PoD Bane > every Sith who came before him. So unless someone can refute that, logic dictates that someone like frigging Tenebrous is way better than peak Bane (hell his apprentice Venamis is probably Bane level or better), never mind Plagueis who would become much more powerful by his prime, never mind RotS Sidious, who Yoda stalemated. By all rights Yoda should absolutely demolish both Sith at the same time.

That is if the quote holds up and Baney Stu is better than all Sith who came before him. I've only seen this but haven't studied the source personally:

http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111178634/5207812-2279703178-Bane..PNG

>More knowledge than any Sith before him.
>Only has Darth Revan's holocron.

Seems legit.

Originally posted by AncientPower
>More knowledge than any Sith before him.
>Only has Darth Revan's holocron.

Seems legit.

No, he has Revan's holocron and the Korriban academy's archives.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
No, he has Revan's holocron and the Korriban academy's archives. I found this way funnier than I should have.

Did not know archives of Korriban and Revan's holocron> everything else the sith empires possessed. Sounds like a quote that doesn't equate to reality.

Originally posted by ILS
I found this way funnier than I should have.

Kidding aside, I don't think just appeals to personal incredulity constitute enough grounds to dismiss a source on its face.

I'd like if someone could pull up the whole page where the quote comes from. Ant found it apparently and I've heard through the grapevine it's referring to PoD Bane. That said, Bane was a character before Drew wrote his god awful trilogy, so the fact file is probably referring to peak Bane regardless.

Bane as a character was only explored up to the PoD era by sources, though. The end of Bane of the Sith was basically the beginning of RoT, which takes place directly after PoD.

Despite not being explored further at the time, he presumably went on to acquire the knowledge and power to justify the accolade though, surely? That's my take on it. And Drew just fills in the gaps years later.

Peak Bane > everyone before him.

Well, presumably he continued to grow in knowledge and power, but there was no exposition on him after that time until Karpyshyn came along with his sub-PoD quality novels RoT and DoE.

Regarding how Ant discovered the quote, I believe he later debunked it by saying that it was only referring to PoD Bane being better than all of the Sith of his time (ie. the context of the entire article/page(s) refers to the Sith of his time, not all time). I don't have the source on-hand to verify, though.

I suspected that might be the case, though the phrasing used doesn't indicate that. "anyone who had come before him" "change the Sith Order forever".

"Anyone who had come before him" , perhaps? Changing the Sith Order forever refers to him implementing the Rule of Two, which was the most successful doctrine of Sith history and resulted in the creation of the most successful Sith Order in history.

Not that I should be complaining, since this can all be used to positively scale Sidious

Originally posted by SunRazer
"Anyone who had come before him" , perhaps? Changing the Sith Order forever refers to him implementing the Rule of Two, which was the most successful doctrine of Sith history and resulted in the creation of the most successful Sith Order in history.

Not that I should be complaining, since this can all be used to positively scale Sidious Exactly. Bane started the greatest line of Sith, ever. Ties in with the theme of him being better than all those Sith who came before him.

@ILS - Well, if it was referring to recent history, that still works, given both the stupidity and the pathetic power levels of the Brotherhood of Darkness - by far the weakest Sith Order intellectually, philosophically and in the Force.

I imagine it refers to the POD in which case, makes total sense. Makes zero sense in any other context.

Originally posted by SunRazer
@ILS - Well, if it was referring to recent history, that still works, given both the stupidity and the pathetic power levels of the Brotherhood of Darkness - by far the weakest Sith Order intellectually, philosophically and in the Force.

Well, I dunno. Kas'im was able to challenge the greatest sith to his time in history.

Because he was a saber master, lol.

>greatest Sith
>POD Bane struggles with 12 Tuk'ata.

Originally posted by AncientPower
>greatest Sith
>POD Bane struggles with 12 Tuk'ata. It's almost like you don't want to wank PT, and by proxy Shaak Ti.

As if PT needs wanking.

Yes because Shaak Ti gets Banite power scaling :/

She does. Remember, DMB, Asajj has way better training than Bane from a far better source than the Academy. So she tots gets scaling and is at least Bane level, and Shaak Ti > Asajj, tbfh.

So she gets scaling.

Oh yeah totally, it's an immutable fact that Ventress shits on Bane because of scaling that doesn't even apply to her. And Ventress therefore shits on any Sith before him. Becuz Rivi Anu.

Now you guys are getting it.

If you could only let go of your personal attachments to Bane you could both enjoy his feats and not have to compare him to a superior era of characters.

Oh yeah, totally. Feats = invalid. PT era >>>>>>> Bane era, even though it's stated only the Sith grew in power and the Jedi stayed the same, remained static and were training to refight the same war...

Lmao it's the prime of the Jedi. That's beyond question - show me another era before it with a Yoda, Anakin, Windu and Obi Wan.

That depends what you define as prime. Clearly the era has more powerful top tiers(solely due to the likes of Yoda, Windu and Anakin). But if you take an average Jedi from that time with an average Jedi from, say, TOR or ToTJ, it's rather debatable if the PT era Jedi would win.
The RotS novel paints a good picture of this.

Originally posted by MythLord
Oh yeah, totally. Feats = invalid. PT era >>>>>>> Bane era, even though it's stated only the Sith grew in power and the Jedi stayed the same, remained static and were training to refight the same war... So much sodium. The PT Jedi are the greatest by holistic intent and word of god.

Feats are just your interpretation of an author's interpretation of what he wants the characters to be capable of in that particular type of media in order to satisfy a particular audience. Just as SWTOR and KotoR want to amaze their players with all the awesome powers and shit their characters are capable of, Fact File caters to people who, *gasp*, want facts. Forgive me if I prefer using the latter over the former.

Actually LoE says the Jedi grew in power as well. Just saiyan.

Ayy, post the quote. Today has been a good day for slaughtering TOR and Bane fans. Let's keep it rolling.

Yeah, there's absolutely no way any incarnation of Bane is above Valkorion.

There's only one Sith Lord truly above Valkorion.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
There's only one Sith Lord truly above Valkorion.

Sidious.

Seriously, Bane is not anywhere near Valkorion.

Originally posted by Petrus
Sidious.

Seriously, Bane is not anywhere near Valkorion. It's a nice thought, though.

I have no personal preference for either character, tbh. I say let both of them die.

But yeah, Czar Kun alone should be able to give Yoda an excellent fight; add Kun's master's master and the green freak goes down.

Originally posted by Petrus
I have no personal preference for either character, tbh. I say let both of them die. You're my kind of guy.

Originally posted by ILS
You're my kind of guy.

Originally posted by ILS
So much sodium. The PT Jedi are the greatest by holistic intent and word of god.

Feats are just your interpretation of an author's interpretation of what he wants the characters to be capable of in that particular type of media in order to satisfy a particular audience. Just as SWTOR and KotoR want to amaze their players with all the awesome powers and shit their characters are capable of, Fact File caters to people who, *gasp*, want facts. Forgive me if I prefer using the latter over the former.

Sodium... yet it benefits my favourite characters... Keep working on it, ILS. Anyways, while it's all well and good to use Fact File, just saying "feats don't matter" honestly doesn't make any sense. Mediums are overexaggerated or underplayed, true, but then it's up to the debater to find some middle ground. But to completely disregard them on a flimsy basis isn't exactly the best way of going around debating. What a character can achieve, alongside powerscaling and accolades, should all be used to compare and contrast.

Also, regarding the Labyrinth of Evil quote, while it does show that the Jedi grew more powerful, it clearly isn't by the same extent as the Sith grew, according to the RotS novel.

Originally posted by MythLord

Also, regarding the Labyrinth of Evil quote, while it does show that the Jedi grew more powerful, it clearly isn't by the same extent as the Sith grew, according to the RotS novel.

They still grew however.

Plus as I just now see it, just because the Jedi were training for the last war, doesn't mean that they stagnated or didn't develop. They were just training to fight a horde of Sith coming down upon them.

Grew, but not to nearly the same extent as the Sith grew, or at least that's how Stover and Lucas paint it out to be. Basically, not the entire PT era >>> the entire Bane era.

Originally posted by MythLord
Sodium... yet it benefits my favourite characters... Keep working on it, ILS.

Anyways, while it's all well and good to use Fact File, just saying "feats don't matter" honestly doesn't make any sense. Mediums are overexaggerated or underplayed, true, but then it's up to the debater to find some middle ground. But to completely disregard them on a flimsy basis isn't exactly the best way of going around debating. What a character can achieve, alongside powerscaling and accolades, should all be used to compare and contrast. It benefits your favourite characters... yet you still chose to complain about it.

So to shorten your post. "It doesn't make any sense, feats are exaggerated, I feel I should find a middle ground, and disregarding feats as flimsy isn't what I find to be good debating. I like using feats for comparisons."

That's nice, and I encourage you to do what you like. Just bare in mind you're being entirely subjective by going this route. My method, without using feats, disregards any personal interpretation or feelings on my end, meaning the room for error is vastly smaller.
Well yeah, hence why the Sith won. Where does this contradict that the PT Jedi are the best, by word of god?

Originally posted by MythLord
Grew, but not to nearly the same extent as the Sith grew, or at least that's how Stover and Lucas paint it out to be. Basically, not the entire PT era >>> the entire Bane era. Given that your average Sith Lord during the Bane era was the equivalent of or less than a well trained Sith acolyte who hadn't yet earned a lightsaber, nah.

Practically all the PT era >>> the Bane era. I didn't use the word entire because not all PT Jedi can beat everyone of the Bane Era, but mostly, yeah.

Originally posted by ILS
It benefits your favourite characters... yet you still chose to complain about it.

Because I don't neccessarily agree with it.

Originally posted by ILS
So to shorten your post. "It doesn't make any sense, feats are exaggerated, I feel I should find a middle ground, and disregarding feats as flimsy isn't what I find to be good debating. I like using feats for comparisons."

That's nice, and I encourage you to do what you like. Just bare in mind you're being entirely subjective by going this route. My method, without using feats, disregards any personal interpretation or feelings on my end, meaning the room for error is vastly smaller.

I, obviously, will use more than just feats. I've long since been against the whole "feats-only" narrow view, which I'm pretty sure my debates with a certain SirFizzWhizz can attest to. I'm just saying to completely rule out feats when there's no statement or factual evidence like Fact File, or even reasonable speculation, to say: "Hey this guy > this guy" is not the best way to go around it.

Originally posted by ILS
Well yeah, hence why the Sith won. Where does this contradict that the PT Jedi are the best, by word of god?

I never disputed the fact that it's the prime of the Jedi, I'm disputing the Jedi of PT >>>>>> the Jedi of the Bane era.

Originally posted by MythLord
I, obviously, will use more than just feats. I've long since been against the whole "feats-only" narrow view, which I'm pretty sure my debates with a certain SirFizzWhizz can attest to. I'm just saying to completely rule out feats when there's no statement or factual evidence like Fact File, or even reasonable speculation, to say: "Hey this guy > this guy" is not the best way to go around it. Dude, you're never going to get an answer for random cross-era fights like Plo Koon vs Aryn Leneer or Ven Zallow vs Darth Talon. Ever. Not with feats anyway.

I don't disagree that feats might give a good idea of who might win but that's about it. It's basically a dick measuring contest at that point.
To quote NewGuy, Prime of the Jedi >>>>>> "Force sensitive rats"

Originally posted by ILS
Dude, you're never going to get an answer for random cross-era fights like Plo Koon vs Aryn Leneer or Ven Zallow vs Darth Talon. Ever. Not with feats anyway.

Yes, hence why we compare the medium they appear in and their respective accolades/achievements. Then, from that, we draw a conclusion.

Originally posted by ILS
I don't disagree that feats might give a good idea of who might win but that's about it. It's basically a dick measuring contest at that point.

Call it whatever type of contest you'd like, fact is in those types of scenarios feats should not be excluded(though obviously, neither should things like accolades or power-scaling).

Originally posted by ILS
To quote NewGuy, Prime of the Jedi >>>>>> "Force sensitive rats"

Because beings that can chop through several Sith and elite soldiers << beings that get killed by Geonosians and Battle Droids...

Originally posted by MythLord

Call it whatever type of contest you'd like, fact is in those types of scenarios feats should not be excluded(though obviously, neither should things like accolades or power-scaling).

Use this logic on the other thread.

Originally posted by MythLord


Because beings that can chop through several Sith and elite soldiers << beings that get killed by Geonosians and Battle Droids...

That was hardly a fair engagement, 200 Jedi vs a droid factory which was pouring out thousands and thousands of Battle Droids in a confined area, the Sonic cannons the Geos had didn't exactly help maters.

Thousands of Battle droids >> Several Sith and Troopers.

Overwhelming numbers would kill.

I'm referring to two droids shooting down a Jedi in some SW comic and Ima Gun Di dieing to droids that can't even shoot correctly when his guard is down.

Also, if you wanna get technical, a battalion of droids was overwhelming Kenobi... and Raskta cut down groups of Sith, who I think we can all agree > large groups of droids.

Originally posted by MythLord
I'm referring to two droids shooting down a Jedi in some SW comic and Ima Gun Di dieing to droids that can't even shoot correctly when his guard is down.

Also, if you wanna get technical, a battalion of droids was overwhelming Kenobi... and Raskta cut down groups of Sith, who I think we can all agree > large groups of droids.

Ah well when you said Geos and Battle Droids, I was figuring you were meaning the arena battle.

Well a battalion would be pretty overwhelming to just about anyone not ridiculously powerful and skilled.

Groups of Sith...that doesn't really give me a number, how large were these groups exactly? A Battalion of Battle Droids would be 784.

Depending how big these groups are, yeah I could see them being able to take out a Battalion.

But you're saying that Obi-Wan a single person struggled against a full Battalion, yet are saying groups of Sith are greater than a Battalion, not 1 Sith.

Originally posted by MythLord
Because beings that can chop through several Sith and elite soldiers << beings that get killed by Geonosians and Battle Droids... Yeah. It's not even so much that the PT is pointed out by Lucas twice to be the prime of the Jedi, and has produced the greatest top tiers ever, but rather the fact that the Jedi of Bane's day weren't capable of slaughtering the Brotherhood of Sith - an order of Sith who you could describe as inept and actually be complimenting. I don't care to look through PoD to find the actual quotes and logistics for why this era of Jedi and Sith weren't great, but it's in there.

It is settled, then.

Yoda stomps.

Is that Bane quote in regards to Legends canon or Disney canon?

Originally posted by The Merchant
Is that Bane quote in regards to Legends canon or Disney canon? Legends.

That's beautiful tbh. Combine that with the Phantom Menace Scrapbook quote on how the Sith of the Banite line became stronger than the previous generation...

And then if you combine that with Luke's power relationship to Sidious and his potential compared to Anakin's, and Vader being inferior to Caedus if you trust the internal flap of novels, you have a means of linking every major era of Star Wars in some form or another, objectively.

The wrenches in that are spirit Exar, the Karness > Vader implication, and the Karness > Vong Krayt statement.

Temp raised a good point in a CV thread for why Karness > Vader isn't necessarily the case in Vader's prime. Why would Karness > Krayt be a wrench?

Spirit Exar is a thing doe.

Yeah that's true. I guess people blanket Vader as a consistent character even though he was Vader longer than he was a Jedi, lol.

Spirit Exar might require the discarding of living Exar > Kyp + spirit Exar

Sorry, but your shit still stinks, guys.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Yeah that's true. I guess people blanket Vader as a consistent character even though he was Vader longer than he was a Jedi, lol.

Spirit Exar might require the discarding of living Exar > Kyp + spirit Exar I never thought I'd be saying this, but thank god for beniboybling and his devotion to understanding Force spirits.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t625115.html

With that loose end tied up...
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Sorry, but your shit still stinks, guys. Not as bad as yours, TOR fanboy.

TOR? wtf? Look at my avatar. Look at my mother****ing sig. You think I care about Valkorion? It was all about the power-trip, and I've found Omnipotence.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
TOR? wtf? Look at my avatar. Look at my mother****ing sig. You think I care about Valkorion? It was all about the power-trip, and I've found Omnipotence. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1DcD8e55YY

Accept the Elder Scrolls power wank into your heart.

Originally posted by ILS
I never thought I'd be saying this, but thank god for beniboybling and his devotion to understanding Force spirits.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t625115.html

With that loose end tied up...

He lost that thread.