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In light of the new quote, have any opinions changed on this? Prime versions of all. Fight takes place on Ciutric IV.

Which quote are you referring to?
Bane having more knowledge and power than anyone before him?
Team 1

Yeah.

It's a bizarre quote as it basically states bane > everyone before him and therefore zannah is even more powerful and so on down the rule of two lineage
But yet that just doesn't seem right
But by that quote team 1 should win handily

It'll take some adjusting to be sure.

Team 1 wins.

Do people actually take this quote seriously? Shits and giggles aside PoD Bane obviously isn't stronger than Darth Revan or Vitiate, so its evidently referring to the Brotherhood of Sith exclusively.

The quote isn't context/era dependant. Though yeah it probably won't apply to Vitiate given his own accolades (that said, some interesting points were raised recently about the TOR encyclopedia being in-universe ).

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Do people actually take this quote seriously? Shits and giggles aside PoD Bane obviously isn't stronger than Darth Revan or Vitiate, so its evidently referring to the Brotherhood of Sith exclusively.

Originally posted by ILS
The quote isn't context/era dependant. Though yeah it probably won't apply to Vitiate given his own accolades (that said, some interesting points were raised recently about the TOR encyclopedia being in-universe ). The contexts aren't specified, but it is the most logical contexts to assume considering Bane himself admits to being unable to fully comprehend the knowledge in Darth Revan's holocron, himself less masterful and knowledgeable than Vitiate.

Right, but Bane at his peak, not PoD Bane, is way more learned and powerful. That's why the quote is separated from the bulk of the article and refers to "anyone". It isn't in a context.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
The contexts aren't specified, but it is the most logical contexts to assume considering Bane himself admits to being unable to fully comprehend the knowledge in Darth Revan's holocron, himself less masterful and knowledgeable than Vitiate.

Originally posted by ILS
Right, but Bane at his peak, not PoD Bane, is way more learned and powerful. That's why the quote is separated from the bulk of the article and refers to "anyone". It isn't in a context. I would like to see the full contexts myself, however that's not actually true:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-yGbW9lf55pE/VzemiEztEmI/AAAAAAAAAdY/qyH-H9KIoo4gtNobparKeNtrU2kRYgzEQCK8B/s453/Bane.PNG

It says "He used that knowledge and skill to change the Sith Order forever", or rather to destroy the Brotherhood and institute the Rule of Two; which is done in PoD, well before his prime.

So prime bane must be way stronger than anyone before him

In the Brotherhood of Sith.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I would like to see the full contexts myself, however that's not actually true:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-yGbW9lf55pE/VzemiEztEmI/AAAAAAAAAdY/qyH-H9KIoo4gtNobparKeNtrU2kRYgzEQCK8B/s453/Bane.PNG

It says "He used that knowledge and skill to change the Sith Order forever", or rather to destroy the Brotherhood and institute the Rule of Two; which is done in PoD, well before his prime. Here's the article:

http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/5225374-1.jpg
http://static2.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/5225375-2.jpg
http://static3.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/5225377-3.jpg
http://static4.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/5225378-4.jpg

It isn't written in any context because the text is isolated. And it describes Bane's life well past the BoD, up to the point he finds Nadd's holocron, and establishes his base on Ambria with Zannah.

Him using his superior knowledge and power than "anyone" who preceded him to change the Sith Order "forever" doesn't exactly scream "but only in regards to the Brotherhood of Sith, yo!"

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Do people actually take this quote seriously? Shits and giggles aside PoD Bane obviously isn't stronger than Darth Revan or Vitiate, so its evidently referring to the Brotherhood of Sith exclusively.

So yeah Bane is a beast

@ILS

Actually, the way i read it is like:

Darth Bane had mastered more sith techniques than anyone who had come before him.

I read that as any other apprentice or person within the Dark brotherhood who had come before him.

One could argue shenanigans and say I'm biased, but if the author's intent was to say Darth Bane>Every other sith lord before him, i feel he would have said any other sith lord instead of a vague word like that.

It's very vague imo, a decent quote but vague.

In any case the quote could be rendered invalid as SWTor And other books didn't come out when that fact file was out but meh.

Based on feats and/or accolades alone, the HoT, Barsen'thor, Nox, Valkorion, Revan, maybe Malgus, and Exar Kun are undoubtedly above/at least on par with any incarnation of Bane, especially because his most impressive feats were accomplished while on dark side nexuses. Seriously. This quote is shit.

Would you guys seriously take into account a quote that said something like "Zayne Carrick eventually became one of the most powerful Jedi of his time" only because it comes from a canon source? Even if it contradicts a lot of stuff and makes no sense whatsoever when considering other characters and their respective powers and abilities?

I guess Vitiate's own accolades need to get dropped then, kek.

http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/5227436-rsz_swtor.jpgDat in-universe, era specific hype doe.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
@ILS

Actually, the way i read it is like:

Darth Bane had mastered more sith techniques than anyone who had come before him.

I read that as any other apprentice or person within the Dark brotherhood who had come before him.

One could argue shenanigans and say I'm biased, but if the author's intent was to say Darth Bane>Every other sith lord before him, i feel he would have said any other sith lord instead of a vague word like that.

It's very vague imo, a decent quote but vague.

In any case the quote could be rendered invalid as SWTor And other books didn't come out when that fact file was out but meh. So, your gripe is that "anyone", a word that is in no way vague, is vague. Awesome. Dismissed.

Sure, except that Vitiate really doesn't need accolades for us to see how powerful he is.

What do you think of Luke claiming that all Jedi everywhere will die if Ragnos came back? Just Luke being a drama queen?

He has feats. Bane has out of universe, factual statements.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
What do you think of Luke claiming that all Jedi everywhere will die if Ragnos came back? Just Luke being a drama queen? Quote?

Originally posted by ILS
Here's the article:

http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/5225374-1.jpg
http://static2.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/5225375-2.jpg
http://static3.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/5225377-3.jpg
http://static4.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/5225378-4.jpg

It isn't written in any context because the text is isolated. And it describes Bane's life well past the BoD, up to the point he finds Nadd's holocron, and establishes his base on Ambria with Zannah.

Him using his superior knowledge and power than "anyone" who preceded him to change the Sith Order "forever" doesn't exactly scream "but only in regards to the Brotherhood of Sith, yo!" Right, you already said that. To which I responded that the most logical contexts to be inferred are that of the Brotherhood, because the alternative (that's its all of history) doesn't make sense in terms of what we are told in the very source material it is describing. And of course, an absence of any stated contexts hardly contradict this.

You tried to argue in response that it's referring to Bane in his prime, but this can be nowhere inferred; instead its implicitly referring to PoD Bane. The fact that on the next page it goes on to describe events after that is irrelevant, especially when the bulk of the article is about Bane's rise and establishment of a new Sith Order, and as you yourself said, it is isolated from the main text regardless.

Originally posted by ILS
He has feats. Bane has out of universe, factual statements.



Out of universe, factual statements that contradict stuff, considering every impressive thing he accomplished was at a dark side nexus and considering other people's feats and pure combative showings are above his.

Also, can be just as good as out of universe factual statements.

Although... Bane is actually canon. So that quote does not necessarily apply to Legends characters, anyway.

Originally posted by Petrus
Out of universe, factual statements that contradict stuff, considering every impressive thing he accomplished was at a dark side nexus and considering other people's feats and pure combative showings are above his.

Also, can be just as good as out of universe factual statements.

Although... Bane is actually canon. So that quote does not necessarily apply to Legends characters.

A lack of feats isn't necessarily evidence of absence. Bane was in hiding; he didn't exactly have the opportunities to one-up Vitiate on Nathema, for instance.

Pretty sure it's Legends.

Yeah, nah, team 2 takes this in a trying combat.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Right, you already said that. To which I responded that the most logical contexts to be inferred are that of the Brotherhood, because the alternative (that's its all of history) doesn't make sense in terms of the very source material it is describing. Your supposition was that the context you like is the most logical one because otherwise it doesn't make sense to you. Which is nice, it really is, but doesn't really help you.
So you're asking me to prove it isn't in the BoD context? Aka proving a negative? At least you managed to admit there is a very clear "absence of stated contexts".
If the quote is without context, it probably isn't referring to a Bane who had a holocron or two. It has to be referring to Bane when he acquired the relevant knowledge/power to surpass all other Sith, i.e his peak. When he hit that point is inconsequential to the fact he reached that point.
Holy shit, according to what?
Agreed, but it does detract from your point that the quote is meant to be centred on Bane's relationship to the Brotherhood when the article is clearly giving a summary of Bane's full history, which yes, would include whenever he hit his prime. We just didn't know what that looked like until wrote that awful trilogy of his.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
A lack of feats isn't necessarily evidence of absence. Bingo.

You're all so caught up in Bioware making Vitiate out to be a megabadass without realizing the logical consequences. Feats, as a means of evidence, suck. They vary massively depending on the medium and the audience it's trying to reach.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
A lack of feats isn't necessarily evidence of absence. Bane was in hiding; he didn't exactly have the opportunities to one-up Vitiate on Nathema, for instance.

Pretty sure it's Legends.

I agree, but when a character lacks feats how can we even use him/her in a versus forum? Of course that even someone who lacks feats could very well be extremely powerful, but we actually need to see it.

How would you react to a canon quote that says Zayne Carrick became one of the most powerful Jedi eventually? Would you take it as absolute certainty even though it contradicts things, only because it's canon?

Just so everyone is clear on what this contradicts:

"To Bane it seemed the teachings contained within the single holocron surpassed those of the Academy's entire archives. Revan had discovered many of the rituals of the ancient sith, and as the holocron's avatar explained their nature and purpose, Bane could barely wrap his mind around their awesome potential. Some of the rituals were so terrible, so dangerous to attempt, even for a true Sith master, that he doubted he would ever dare to use them."

--Darth Bane, Path of Destruction

It being noted that among these were Revan's writings on the Nathema ritual, which were far less advanced than the actual thing.

Originally posted by Petrus
I agree, but when a character lacks feats how can we even use him/her in a versus forum? Of course that even someone who lacks feats could very well be extremely powerful, but we actually need to see it.

How would you react to a canon quote that says Zayne Carrick became one of the most powerful Jedi eventually? Would you take it as absolute certainty even though it contradicts things, only because it's canon? You aren't making any new points. Some questions aren't answerable in the absence of anything outside of feats, and you don't need feats to know if someone is powerful. Marka Ragnos is better than Ahsoka and we haven't even seen him holding a lightsaber.

And again, plenty of people say this. "What if this totally ridiculous quote came out and said this". Two points: it hasn't happened yet, so hypotheticals are hardly much of an argument. And it's only ridiculous because you perceive it that way, which is taking a subjective viewpoint. If a recent Fact File came out and said Malak >>>>> Darth Maul GG get rekt I wouldn't try to get around it.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Just so everyone is clear on what this contradicts:

"To Bane it seemed the teachings contained within the single holocron surpassed those of the Academy's entire archives. Revan had discovered many of the rituals of the ancient sith, and as the holocron's avatar explained their nature and purpose, Bane could barely wrap his mind around their awesome potential. Some of the rituals were so terrible, so dangerous to attempt, even for a true Sith master, that he doubted he would ever dare to use them."

--Darth Bane, Path of Destruction

It being noted that among these were Revan's writings on the Nathema ritual, which were far less advanced than the actual thing. Yeah, novice Bane failing to comprehend everything from one holocron of many he would go on to analyse hardly contradicts anything.

Vitiate is a super-prodigy who studied the Force at the height of the Sith Empire for 100 years, then drained 8,000 Sith Lords as well as an entire planet and its inhabitants and spent another 1300 years further studying the darkside, other sources of knowledge, draining legions of ghosts and continually improving in power and knowledge, spent 300 years draining Revan and then drained another planet to top it all off.

He doesn't exactly need the feats.

Originally posted by ILS
You aren't making any new points. Some questions aren't answerable in the absence of anything outside of feats, and you don't need feats to know if someone is powerful. Marka Ragnos is better than Ahsoka and we haven't even seen him holding a lightsaber.

And again, plenty of people say this. "What if this totally ridiculous quote came out and said this". Two points: it hasn't happened yet, so hypotheticals are hardly much of an argument. And it's only ridiculous because you perceive it that way, which is taking a subjective viewpoint. If a recent Fact File came out and said Malak >>>>> Darth Maul GG get rekt I wouldn't try to get around it.

lmao @ that Bane statement outweighing everything we've seen someone like Vitiate do.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Vitiate is a super-prodigy who studied the Force at the height of the Sith Empire for 100 years, then drained 8,000 Sith Lords as well as an entire planets and its inhabitants and spent another 1300 years further studying the darkside, other sources of knowledge, draining legions of ghosts and continually improving in power and knowledge, spent 300 years draining Revan and then drained another planet to top it all off.

He doesn't exactly need the feats.

Originally posted by ILS
Your supposition was that the context you like is the most logical one because otherwise it doesn't make sense to you. Which is nice, it really is, but doesn't really help you.This isn't a counter-argument lol, your just evading the point. Bane is barely able to comprehend the knowledge in Revan's holocron, itself paling in comparison to the knowledge Vitiate possesses. So to suggest that nonetheless he has a superior understanding of the Force besides that is yes, absurd.Er no? I'm telling you that in an absence of stated contexts as to what its referring to, we are free to assume contexts, as you yourself have done. Do you read? I've covered this already:Originally posted by Beniboybling
It says "He used that knowledge and skill to change the Sith Order forever", or rather to destroy the Brotherhood and institute the Rule of Two; which is done in PoD, well before his prime. No, it's as I said, irrelevant.

And this article was written before Drew's Bane Trilogy?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Vitiate is a super-prodigy who studied the Force at the height of the Sith Empire for 100 years, then drained 8,000 Sith Lords as well as an entire planet and its inhabitants and spent another 1300 years further studying the darkside, other sources of knowledge, draining legions of ghosts and continually improving in power and knowledge, spent 300 years draining Revan and then drained another planet to top it all off.

He doesn't exactly need the feats. But he doesn't have the statements.



I'm not lost on the general point of Vitiate's character, though. He's a shitty rehash of Sidious. I'm sure he is better than Bane, I just don't think it really detracts from the point of the quote, which is that Bane, at that time, was better than all of those Sith. He still is, but now a new character is MVP.

Originally posted by ILS
Yeah, novice Bane failing to comprehend everything from one holocron of many he would go on to analyse hardly contradicts anything. Right, because it was with his supposedly unparalled knowledge that novice Bane would go on to change the Sith Order forever, as the source says.

Let's face it
You are all just salty and biased because you hate bane
If it was basically anyone else you would say it was gg

No. I don't even hate Bane, like many people here do.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
This isn't a counter-argument lol, your just evading the point. Bane is barely able to comprehend the knowledge in Revan's holocron, itself paling in comparison to the knowledge Vitiate possesses. So to suggest that nonetheless he has a superior understanding of the Force besides that is yes, absurd. Not when you consider, *gasp*, that Bane has researched well more than Revan's holocron.
Or, yeno, Occam's Razor. If it says anyone, and it isn't written in context, it probably means anyone.
That doesn't imply that it's referring exclusively to PoD. If anything, "changing the Sith Order forever" implies that the scope of Bane's knowledge and power is so far-reaching that the Sith Order will never again regress to where it's been in the past.
Yup.

Actually, the ones supporting this quote are the ones who like to openly shit on Bane. But they're backing the statement firstly because it would make them massive ****ing hypocrites to dismiss this statement while championing Sidious universe-busting and secondly because then they could reasonably argue that the PT >>>>> every era before via RoT progression and shit on Vitiate and TOR.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Actually, the ones supporting this quote are the ones who like to openly shit on Bane. But they're backing the statement firstly because it would make them massive ****ing hypocrites to dismiss this statement while championing Sidious universe-busting and secondly because then they could reasonably argue that the PT >>>>> every era before via RoT progression and shit on Vitiate and TOR. Well, yeah. I don't dismiss evidence based on preference. And it's not a case of "could" as much as "have, am, and will continue to do so" .

Pretty much, yeah. I remain objective, though, and hold that there's no way that quote stands. Also, ILS just revealed it was written before Drew's trilogy.

Originally posted by Petrus
Pretty much, yeah. I remain objective, though, and hold that there's no way that quote stands. Also, ILS just revealed it was written before Drew's trilogy. Which doesn't change anything, since Bane and his Rule of Two was always a concept. All Drew did was fill in gaps.

Originally posted by ILS
Not when you consider, *gasp*, that Bane has researched well more than Revan's holocron.Not by PoD. Yes and how does Occam's Razor go again? That the simplest explanation is the most logical one. So is that the one that fits with the source material, or the one that completely overturns not only our understanding of this character, but everyone else that came after him?

I'll leave you to stew on that one.
What was that fun technique again? Oh yes Occam's Razor, obviously by that logic the radical overturn of Sith philosophy and the destruction of the self-destructive Brotherhood of Darkness is far more likely what's being referred to here, as it had an infinitely greater impact on the Order that what other bits of knowledge Bane might have accumulated post-PoD (which he'd never have been in a position to do so without instituting the Rule of Two in the first place). Especially when the bulk of the article is essentially focused on describing that triumph.
Well that would introduce a third option, a retcon.

Originally posted by hutchy1345
Let's face it
You are all just salty and biased because you hate bane
If it was basically anyone else you would say it was gg

Originally posted by ILS
Well, yeah. I don't dismiss evidence based on preference. And it's not a case of "could" as much as "have, am, and will continue to do so" .

"Well, yeah I'm just doing it to shit on TOR. I don't dismiss evidence cuz I want to."

uMMMM.....

If seen from ILS's perspective, that quote would pretty much mean that Bane > Vitiate.

/quotedismissed

If seen from Beni's perspective, the quote actually makes sense.

/quoteaccepted


It's that simple.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yes and how does Occam's Razor go again? That the simplest explanation is the most logical one. So is that the one that fits with the source material, or the one that completely overturns not only our understanding of this character, but everyone else that came after him?You kind of need to establish that it doesn't "fit with the source material" first, which you haven't managed.
According to you. According to the quote it refers to Bane being better than anyone and changing the Sith Order forever.

Which sounds less like an assumption based on personal whim. mmm
In order to change the Order forever and successfully kickstart the RoT, Bane needed more than Revan's holocron. He had the idea but not the means to implement it. So no, the implication isn't what you want it to be just because you choose to reach in that direction.

Originally posted by Nephthys
"Well, yeah I'm just doing it to shit on TOR. I don't dismiss evidence cuz I want to."

uMMMM..... Originally posted by Petrus
If seen from ILS's perspective, that quote would pretty much mean that Bane > Vitiate.

/quotedismissed

If seen from Beni's perspective, the quote actually makes sense.

/quoteaccepted


It's that simple. Take as long as you need to process the new paradigm.

I mean, it's not like ILS actually believes anything he's saying.

That quote is from 2014 iirc

Bane is superior just live with it...

No one even likes Bane. Why the obsession over this?

Originally posted by ILS
According to you. According to the quote it refers to Bane being better than anyone and changing the Sith Order forever.

Which sounds less like an assumption based on personal whim. mmmIt says he gained more knowledge and mastery over those prior to him, then used that "knowledge and skill" to change the Sith Order forever; these clauses aren't independent, and the change that is being referred to is laughably obvious. Right, it required strength in the Force as well i.e. "mastery of Sith techniques", as the source states, not seeing the contradiction here.

You know Bane also acquired Nadd's holocron and the first few orbalisks in that section you're referring to right? Even if you're trying to say it only applies to that specific time frame, Bane still had more than Darth Revan's holocron.

Before he changed the Sith Order forever i.e. instituted the Rule of Two?

It's not just instituting the rule that changed the sith order, it was an ongoing process with training Zannah and setting the Grand Plan in motion.

DMB and Ellimist are on the money.

Yeah Zannah wasn't even 100% established as his apprentice until they met up on Onderon after Bane's journey to Dxun

Originally posted by The Ellimist
It's not just instituting the rule that changed the sith order, it was an ongoing process with training Zannah and setting the Grand Plan in motion. True, but again its what's most likely being referred to. Especially considering Zannah's own success was partly because of her personal study of Sith magic and the intuition of the Grand Plan was more a product of galactic scheming than knowledge and mastery over Sith techniques, all of it by-products of instituting the Rule of Two in the first place.

But that brings to my attention to another key point; Bane could neither understand nor master the ancient Sith magic Zannah was able to, something he expresses several times. E.g.

Practicing in secret, she had progressed far beyond Bane's expectations, learning new spells to unleash the dark side in ways he had never even imagined.

--Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil

This being knowledge Zannah gained from Freedon Nadd, which would make Nadd, Bane's forerunner, more knowledgeable and masterful in Sith techniques than he was even in his prime.

I don't get it; if PoD Bane > all previous sith doesn't make sense, why do you think that's the most likely interpretation? It's almost like there's some circular reasoning going on here...

And Bane acknowledges sorcery as one of his weaknesses, that doesn't mean he's incapable overall.

Beni, I like how you cut out the part of the quote right before that that says Zannah in addition to what Bane gave her sought out her own sources of knowledge and that that's what she practiced in secret.

"He had given her ancient texts filled with arcane rituals, urging her to expand her knowledge and push the boundaries of her talent. He had directed her training so that she could achieve her full potential. But he did not realize just how far she had come. In addition to the tomes her Master had provided, Zannah had sought out her own sources of hidden Sith knowledge over the years. Practicing in secret, she had progressed far beyond Bane's expectations, learning new spells to unleash the dark side in ways he had never even imagined."

But I guess the context isn't important to Beni because... reasons?

But how could he have gained more mastery than anyone before him if he can't master sorcery, a major section of force knowledge?

Because he's so awesome at everything else?

At least relative to ancient weaklings. Plagueis was so powerful he could just will himself to use sorcery, lmao.

More awesome than the guy said to have mastered every technique? Or the guy who studied the dark side for 1400 years? Just in the limited sections he could acquire, while they could master everything?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
And Bane acknowledges sorcery as one of his weaknesses, that doesn't mean he's incapable overall.



Yeah, by that logic Palpatine's adepts>> Maul, given that they studied sorcery and were masters of alchemy as well.

Originally posted by Nephthys
More awesome than the guy said to have mastered every technique? Or the guy who studied the dark side for 1400 years? Just in the limited sections he could acquire, while they could master everything?

Every technique a long time ago, maybe. Bane's gotten every meaningful holocron plus "modern" arts and maybe some of his own.

Amulets barely mattered to his power whereas Exar Kun and Marka Ragnos, both of whom Vitiate viewed as threats, relied extensively on them.

Face it; Sidious > Plagueis > Tenebrous >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Zannah > Bane > Valkorion >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Hero.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Beni, I like how you cut out the part of the quote right before that that says Zannah in addition to what Bane gave her sought out her own sources of knowledge and that that's what she practiced in secret.

"He had given her ancient texts filled with arcane rituals, urging her to expand her knowledge and push the boundaries of her talent. He had directed her training so that she could achieve her full potential. But he did not realize just how far she had come. In addition to the tomes her Master had provided, Zannah had sought out her own sources of hidden Sith knowledge over the years. Practicing in secret, she had progressed far beyond Bane's expectations, learning new spells to unleash the dark side in ways he had never even imagined."

But I guess the context isn't important to Beni because... reasons? What's your point? The statement in question says that Bane gained greater knowledge and mastery over the Sith techniques that anyone who came before him. That fact that he possessed knowledge of Sith techniques, which doesn't even prove he understood then (FYI: he didn't) certainly doesn't prove he mastered them (FYI: he didn't.)

So maybe I ommitted it because... its irrelevant?

EDIT: And seeing as this is all ancient Sith knowledge, more Sith above Bane I guess?Originally posted by The Ellimist
I don't get it; if PoD Bane > all previous sith doesn't make sense, why do you think that's the most likely interpretation? It's almost like there's some circular reasoning going on here...I think the most likely explanation is that its referring to the Brotherhood of Sith. Or alternatively, its been retconned. No no he is:

"Dark side sorcery was complex; it attacked the psyche in ways that were difficult to explain and even more difficult to defend against. Bane had no talent for it, yet he had done his best to study the techniques. What he learned was that the only real counter was the victim's strength of will."

The best grasp Bane is able to gain over sorcery is how to counter it, and his counter is pretty feeble at best, this doesn't constitute ability at all. Certainly not on the level of Freedon Nadd, or any of the other ancient Sith.

That's what I just said...

"Anyone who came before him" doesn't mean the brotherhood lol.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
That's what I just said... OK.Originally posted by The Ellimist
"Anyone who came before him" doesn't mean the brotherhood lol. Already covered that with ILS...

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Every technique a long time ago, maybe. Bane's gotten every meaningful holocron plus "modern" arts and maybe some of his own.

Amulets barely mattered to his power whereas Exar Kun and Marka Ragnos, both of whom Vitiate viewed as threats, relied extensively on them.

Face it; Sidious > Plagueis > Tenebrous >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Zannah > Bane > Valkorion >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Hero.

Actually I think the quote says that he knows every technique in all the sourcebooks, plus those undiscovered as of yet. Pretty large pool. And the "modern" force techniques of the Brotherhood were insignificant compared to the Ancient Siths knowledge. No technique of theirs is ever used by Bane that I can recall except for the basics.

Ragnos used a scepter, actually. And that scepter was ridiculously powerful. And Kun barely used his amulet. His best feats are without it tbh.

The quote says he gained more power than anyone before him. Bane > Abeloth, lol?

Originally posted by ILS
So, your gripe is that "anyone", a word that is in no way vague, is vague. Awesome. Dismissed.

no my gripe with the quote its how it's being taken at face value.

Anyone that came before him...

That could mean the anyone who came before him within the Dark brotherhood, OR the Sith Lords in general.

It's a vague and ridiculous quote, as this would imply that all of a sudden Bane>Nihilus, Valkorion, Revan, HoT, Nox, Wrath, Exar Kun etc which already made me laugh for even suggesting it.

I'm curious, what's your take on this quote, ILS?

@Beni, lost cause bud. Move on and ignore

Anything that could even imply Bane is above average must be burned at the depths of the internet!
Long live the Des dies movement!

Originally posted by MythLord
Anything that could even imply Bane is above average must be burned at the depths of the internet!
Long live the Des dies movement!

Doth thou know who I am, peasant?

Originally posted by Nargaroth


Yeah, by that logic Palpatine's adepts>> Maul, given that they studied sorcery and were masters of alchemy as well.

In terms of Sorcery/Alchemy? Of course they would be greater than Maul, given he has never delved into that field.

I wouldn't say overall though, just in that department.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Doth thou know who I am, peasant?
One of the, what, 3 people on this forum that likes Bane?

yes

Originally posted by The Ellimist


Face it; Sidious > Plagueis > Tenebrous >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Zannah > Bane > Valkorion >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Hero.


http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/754/404/c80.gif


Originally posted by Fated Xtasy

It's a vague and ridiculous quote, as this would imply that all of a sudden Bane>Nihilus, Valkorion, Revan, HoT, Nox, Wrath, Exar Kun etc which already made me laugh for even suggesting it.


Agreed.


And yeah. Fated, Beni, Neph, ILS, Ellimist. Let's move on. It's a never-ending argument.

Lmao @ Neph turning against his first love.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
In terms of Sorcery/Alchemy? Of course they would be greater than Maul, given he has never delved into that field.

Still doesn't mean Maul's knowledge and mastery is inferior overall, especially when he is a Sith, which those adepts aren't worthy of being, as per Sidious himself. The point being you can't argue someone is inferior in overall knowledge and/or power because he/she doesn't know or use Sith magic and/or alchemy.

Maul is far more knowledgeable than those acolytes, because that's the point of being a Rot Sith. And just because Maul didn't use that stuff it doesn't mean he doesn't know it, unless you seriously think an adept is going to have better Force training than a Banite Sith apprentice. Bearing in mind that even Palpatine never uses sorcery in combat, and Maul has mainly shown his greatest abilities in that kind of situation.

@beni
Since when did lack of talent mean you can't do something

Originally posted by Nargaroth
Still doesn't mean Maul's knowledge and mastery is inferior overall, especially when he is a Sith, which those adepts aren't worthy of being, as per Sidious himself. The point being you can't argue someone is inferior in overall knowledge and/or power because he/she doesn't know or use Sith magic and/or alchemy.

Maul is far more knowledgeable than those acolytes, because that's the point of being a Rot Sith. And just because Maul didn't use that stuff it doesn't mean he doesn't know it, unless you seriously think an adept is going to have better Force training than a Banite Sith apprentice. Bearing in mind that even Palpatine never uses sorcery in combat, and Maul has mainly shown his greatest abilities in that kind of situation.

Which is why I said, in that field...yeah they are superior seeing as they have feats and they have studied materials regarding Sith Socery/Alchemy in detail, I wasn't saying overall their Force knowledge being greater than Maul.

I do have limited time between here and CV, so I appreciate Nargaroth and Ellimist taking the reigns for me. I couldn't have put across those counter-points better.

But yeah, the idea that the quote has to be invalid because Bane isn't a master of literally everything every Sith has ever done (opposed to just being better overall, in terms of power and accumulative knowledge/mastery), is about as misguided as saying Vitiate can't be more masterful than Bane because he hasn't mastered the lightsaber/Force augmentation.

Nobody in Star Wars is perfect.

Apart from Sheev. Sheev is perfect. And Plagueis is pretty close too.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
What's your point? The statement in question says that Bane gained greater knowledge and mastery over the Sith techniques that anyone who came before him. That fact that he possessed knowledge of Sith techniques, which doesn't even prove he understood then (FYI: he didn't) certainly doesn't prove he mastered them (FYI: he didn't.)

So maybe I ommitted it because... its irrelevant?

EDIT: And seeing as this is all ancient Sith knowledge, more Sith above Bane I guess?
My point is you were claiming Zannah's knowledge>Bane's and all her knowledge came from Nadd, therefore by your line of thought Nadd's knowledge≥Zannah's>Bane's and Nadd's texts aren't even understandable to Bane because he couldn't imagine what Zannah could do with that knowledge, therefore Nadd>Bane and the quote is invalid.

But what the full quote states is that Zannah eclectically collected her knowledge from a variety of sources, and that Zannah's eclectic knowledge allowed her the ability to do stuff beyond Bane's understanding, something that can't be attributed to any singular ancient Sith, and therefore doesn't necessarily prove that any of these sith were overall superior to Bane in terms of knowledge.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I think the most likely explanation is that its referring to the Brotherhood of Sith. Or alternatively, its been retconned.
Well it's a 2014 quote iirc, so good luck arguing retcon

Originally posted by Beniboybling
No no he is:

"Dark side sorcery was complex; it attacked the psyche in ways that were difficult to explain and even more difficult to defend against. Bane had no talent for it, yet he had done his best to study the techniques. What he learned was that the only real counter was the victim's strength of will."

The best grasp Bane is able to gain over sorcery is how to counter it, and his counter is pretty feeble at best, this doesn't constitute ability at all. Certainly not on the level of Freedon Nadd, or any of the other ancient Sith.
Yeah Ellimist already pointed out that Sorcery is hardly the only area of Sith knowledge that exists. Also, Bane's ability to counter sorcery... feeble? That's not at all the impression I got from how Bane handled Zannah's sorcery attack in DOE tbh.

@Fated Xtasy: LMFAO, so Bane being TOR protag level or higher... is hilariously laughable? Interesting to hear you say that when you couldn't even win a Zannah vs Dooku debate

Bane would bludgeon the hell out of the TOR protags, yeah.

For now.

@DMB, red herring tbh, but if you wanna go that route then... Nox is unkillable, Wrath is top dog, The HoT is slowly becoming a god, Barsen'thor has impressive TK that blows bane out of the way, and his/her very death allowed a Force Nexus to flourish on Chandrilla that assisted, or rather would've have provided a lot of power to Ragnos's Resurrection. But then again that's not what made me laugh, It is the thought that Bane>Revan, Valk, Kun, and Nihilus that makes me laugh.


You know what I do find "hilariously laughable" tho?(which, BTW is a redundant statement) the fact that you think Zannah is anywhere near Caedus level, that is extremely amusing.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
@DMB, red herring tbh, but if you wanna go that route then... Nox is unkillable, Wrath is top dog, The HoT is slowly becoming a god, Barsen'thor has impressive TK that blows bane out of the way

Why yes sir I do believe I've had an accident in my pants.

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.mandatory.com/media/2013/02/emoji-sexts-20.jpg

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Why yes sir I do believe I've had an accident in my pants.

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.mandatory.com/media/2013/02/emoji-sexts-20.jpg

Remind me not to ever text you, Skillz

Originally posted by Emperordmb
My point is you were claiming Zannah's knowledge>Bane's and all her knowledge came from Nadd, therefore by your line of thought Nadd's knowledge≥Zannah's>Bane's and Nadd's texts aren't even understandable to Bane because he couldn't imagine what Zannah could do with that knowledge, therefore Nadd>Bane and the quote is invalid.

But what the full quote states is that Zannah eclectically collected her knowledge from a variety of sources, and that Zannah's eclectic knowledge allowed her the ability to do stuff beyond Bane's understanding, something that can't be attributed to any singular ancient Sith, and therefore doesn't necessarily prove that any of these sith were overall superior to Bane in terms of knowledge.That would be dependent on Bane having any kind of grasp over Nadd's teachings in and of itself, and I see no evidence of that.Only more reason to believe the former, as that would make it post-Vitiate.I find that a dubious evasion; granted there are other ways to become masterful in the Force, and granted it could be claimed someone like Maul or Vader to be more knowledge and more masterful in the Force that a Sith who'd learned a few spells. But the fact remains that Sith magic is the advanced algebra of the dark side and as far as Sith techniques are concerned they are the foremost and prevalent.

And Bane isn't competing with some two-bit acolytes here, he is dealing with Naga Sadow, Exar Kun, Darth Revan, the Dread Masters, Emperor Vitiate etc. some of the greatest Sith sorcerers in galactic history, who had planetary treasure troves of knowledge, who charted the deepest depths of the dark side and accomplished the most complex rituals ever attempted. As if Bane can compete with them in Sith technique without even being capable of comprehending Sith sorcery, let alone mastering it.

Simply put when you exclude Sith magic, mastery in other spheres will only get you so far - the individuals Bane is supposedly better than being way outside his paygrade.

Come Now Beni, we should stop dogpiling on DMB on this forum where everyone is free to comment eachother's opinion, totes not cool Ben.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Come Now Beni, we should stop dogpiling on DMB on this forum where everyone is free to comment eachother's opinion, totes not cool Ben.

DMB deserves it tbh.

Yeah, that whole concept that Bane couldn't comprehend sorcery in the same way Zannah couldn't cast force lightning was one of the most retarded tangents in Karp's trilogy, but ultimately a mark against Bane and his supposed superior mastery of the force over any who had come before.

That said, he's still > Arcann and anyone in TOR not named Revan or Valkorion. or Godlander.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Only more reason to believe the former, as that would make it post-Vitiate.

Actually, I'm quite sure the Fact Files never make a mention of Vitiate, so he should be pretty much excluded from the comparison.

So? This shit doesn't exist in a vacuum. Vitiate is/was part of continuity, whether or not he's mentioned is irrelevant.

brb the Guinness World Book of Records doesn't cross-check every record holder with all 7+ billion individuals on the planet, it must be bullshit.

It's obviously bullshit if you think its word is Gospel. It doesn't reflect absolute law that this women has the absolute largest breasts or this man is the absolute tallest ever known. It merely reports the known data presented to them (if they can't personally confirm the feat, they don't count it, thus further making your sarcastic point retarded), and even that can be flawed at times (e.g. http://www.cricketcountry.com/news/guinness-book-of-world-records-makes-error-in-record-for-most-sixes-198126).

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
It's obviously bullshit if you think its word is Gospel. It doesn't reflect absolute law that this women has the absolute largest breasts or this man is the absolute tallest ever known. It merely reports the known data presented to them (if they can't personally confirm the feat, they don't count it, thus further making your sarcastic point retarded), and even that can be flawed at times (e.g. http://www.cricketcountry.com/news/guinness-book-of-world-records-makes-error-in-record-for-most-sixes-198126).

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
It's obviously bullshit if you think its word is Gospel. It doesn't reflect absolute law that this women has the absolute largest breasts or this man is the absolute tallest ever known. It merely reports the known data presented to them (if they can't personally confirm the feat, they don't count it, thus further making your sarcastic point retarded), and even that can be flawed at times (e.g. http://www.cricketcountry.com/news/guinness-book-of-world-records-makes-error-in-record-for-most-sixes-198126).

Not the point. I was saying that a source making a superlative statement doesn't need to explicitly mention every individual data point that spans the domain that the superlative reigns over in order to make that extrapolation.

Like when these sources say that Sidious is the most powerful sith lord of all time, it doesn't matter that they don't mention Vitiate by name. Ditto, quite frankly, for this Bane one.

A lack of mention across over a hundred issues suggests a lack of recognition of Vitiate altogether, hence the argument.

I pulled an ant and personally contacted the publisher.

Very good. His response could very well slaughter the quote brigade, and in turn keep Vitiate wank on the rise.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
A lack of mention across over a hundred issues suggests a lack of recognition of Vitiate altogether, hence the argument.

Some of those sourcebooks don't mention any of the ancient sith at all, lol. That doesn't change the fact that the narrators are clearly making a statement about Sidious's status over the course of galactic history. That they don't mention all the millions of potential competitors doesn't matter because they explicitly blanket mention them all with the phrase "of all time".

@Anticus, can you attempt to find the emails for the guys that made Jedi Academy/Jedi Outcast?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Some of those sourcebooks don't mention any of the ancient sith at all, lol. That doesn't change the fact that the narrators are clearly making a statement about Sidious's status over the course of galactic history. That they don't mention all the millions of potential competitors doesn't matter because they explicitly blanket mention them all with the phrase "of all time".
Not the point.

Sourcebooks generally focus on a set era of time (e.g. the Dark Empire or KotOR sourcebooks).

The Fact Files encompass all of history besides specifically the events of SWTOR and related works.

Coincidence? I think not.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Not the point.

Sourcebooks generally focus on a set era of time (e.g. the Dark Empire or KotOR sourcebooks).

The Fact Files encompass all of history besides specifically the events of SWTOR and related works.

Coincidence? I think not.



He has trouble grasping points cause he is usually grasping at straws.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Not the point.

Sourcebooks generally focus on a set era of time (e.g. the Dark Empire or KotOR sourcebooks).

The Fact Files encompass all of history besides specifically the events of SWTOR and related works.

Coincidence? I think not.

Hey, you.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
@Anticus, can you attempt to find the emails for the guys that made Jedi Academy/Jedi Outcast?
I'm busy tonight, but if you send me a PM tomorrow, I can look for it.

It would be hard since Raven Software was engulfed by the COD franchise.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Hey, you.
Whatcha' want?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Not the point.

Sourcebooks generally focus on a set era of time (e.g. the Dark Empire or KotOR sourcebooks).

The Fact Files encompass all of history besides specifically the events of SWTOR and related works.

Coincidence? I think not.

They generally focus on a specific era, yes, but they clearly are not talking about a specific era when they use the phrasing "of all time", "who ever lived", etc.

Do you remember that quote from one of the SWTOR devs that said post-3.0 bosses like Revan were supposed to make the player feel "powerless" without the aid of a team? I vaguely remember something like that, although I couldn't find it on your respect thread.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
They generally focus on a specific era, yes, but they clearly are not talking about a specific era when they use the phrasing "of all time", "who ever lived", etc.
Thus the lack of need for mentioning all the Sith throughout the sourcebooks.

People don't demand Vitiate to be quoted specifically within Darth Bane's section, but merely a mention of at least some event even remotely relating to SWTOR to signify he's apart of the head count.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Do you remember that quote from one of the SWTOR devs that said post-3.0 bosses like Revan were supposed to make the player feel "powerless" without the aid of a team? I vaguely remember something like that, although I couldn't find it on your respect thread.
I thought I posted the closest relating stuff in the SW:EU section?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I'm busy tonight, but if you send me a PM tomorrow, I can look for it.

It would be hard since Raven Software was engulfed by the COD franchise.


ugh, they were? well shit.

Yeah, I'll pm you tomorrow then.

I'm sure there was something else, tbh. Something some dev said specifically concerning how the PC was going to need to team up with others to fight super-powerful bosses like Revan. (I.E the Coalition Strike Team)

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Thus the lack of need for mentioning all the Sith throughout the sourcebooks.

People don't demand Vitiate to be quoted specifically within Darth Bane's section, but merely a mention of at least some event even remotely relating to SWTOR to signify he's apart of the head count.

Why? "of all time" means of all time. It's not very ambiguous. There's no additional need to mention the TOR era just to be extra-double-redundant-sure for your sake.

You could make a case that certain oddballs like Abeloth are ignored by assumption, in the same way that when a Christian says "she's the best singer ever" s/he can be assumed to be excluding God's omnipotent ability to generate noises. But Vitiate was a "regular" enough part of galactic history that he should be included in these blanket statements.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I'm sure there was something else, tbh. Something some dev said specifically concerning how the PC was going to need to team up with others to fight Revan. (I.E the Coalition Strike Team)
mmm I think you're mixing a handful of quotes together (i.e. the one that says Revan is the most powerful boss in the game, the one that the player is "pulled" into his struggle with Vitiate, and spirit Revan saying the protagonist cannot face Revan alone). Otherwise, I would remember considerable wank like that, or at least have it in my respect thread. I'm sad to have not fulfilled your yearly dose of Revan wank, Sasukedc.

EDIT: If the quote does exist, which is possible, albeit very unlikely, the best place to look would be http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=600241.

You would think so... I feel like it was something that was posted in chat during one of those livestreams they were doing. I'm almost positive that someone said Revan and the Emperor were supposed to "make the player feel powerless", and that the heroes would need to team up to fight them. I feel so sure... Then again, I may start having doubts if you don't remember it at all.

I'll rewatch the Twitch stream you are referring to tomorrow and let you know.

To me it is still clear, Even with the knowledge of the other lord, Darth Bane never completed the missing part of Revan holocron... Thus he never surpass Revan I belive that we have to wait later in the Bane line to reach Darth Revan level...