Darth Sidious vs. the Dread Masters

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The Ellimist
1. Force
2. All-out
3. TP battle

Petrus
Sidious and Sidious.

What's TP?

Zenwolf
Originally posted by Petrus
Sidious and Sidious.

What's TP?

Telepathy.

Petrus
Ah. In TP I'm not sure, but the first two are Sidious's.

Tondemonai
Sheev
Sheev
DM's

The Ellimist
Originally posted by Tondemonai

DM's

Lmfao

JKBart
Dread Masters
Palpatine
Dread Masters

Syndicate
Sidious.
Sidious.
Not sure.

The Ellimist
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Lmfao

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Sidious beats them at their own game, just as he would Valkorion. smile

Tondemonai
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Sidious beats them at their own game, just as he would Valkorion. smile

Top kek

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
How in God's green Earth do the Dread touch Sidious in TP?

The Ellimist
Sidious outstrips the "dread masters" by miles in TP.

MS Warehouse
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Lmfao

Your argument is so convincing!

The Ellimist
Originally posted by Tondemonai
Top kek


Shrouded the long-range precognitive abilities of the most powerful Jedi Order in galactic history.
Mind controlled the entire population of Byss.
Removed the memory of the take-off of a super star destroyer from the minds of potentially tens of trillions or more.
Read Vader's thoughts and forced him to bend the knee from across the galaxy.
Blocked Luke's telepathy.
Mentally dominated DE Luke Skywalker.


Yeah, Palpatine's telepathy is pretty far beyond the Dead Masters'.

JKBart
kek Dread Masters do that shit daily subconsciously

The Ellimist
lmao show me when they forced Dark Empire Luke Skywalker to bend the knee and forget his name. thumb up

Sinious
Don't forget that Plagueis wasn't able to read through this guy even before he became a Sith and kept on on concealing his real thoughts after.

The Ellimist
RotJ Luke couldn't hide his thoughts from Vader or Sidious. Sidious with zero training could hide his thoughts from Plagueis. thumb up

Time-Immemorial
Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Your argument is so convincing!

He could not make a solid argument to save his life, he's like 12 years old.

MS Warehouse
Palpatine may be more powerful than each one individually but he can't touch their TP combined. The argument is dumb already since we don't know how powerful they are as individuals but to say he's superior to the group is pretty hilarious.

AncientPower
Just like Vitiate is, I'd imagine, they can't even collectively dominate the protag nevermind a top 3 ever.

The_Tempest
Based on?

....And you don't think Palpatine is more powerful than a single Dread Master in general? lol

AncientPower
I assume you're referring to MS, your Imperial Majesty.

The_Tempest
Ya, I'm on my phone and you ninja'd me

Nephthys
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Based on?

....And you don't think Palpatine is more powerful than a single Dread Master in general? lol

From what I understand, a single Dread Master can channel the collective power of all of them.

MS Warehouse
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Based on?

....And you don't think Palpatine is more powerful than a single Dread Master in general? lol

AncientPower
None of which is relevant, Sidious just like Vitiate shits on them. The six of them and Vitiate couldn't break Revan, Sidious would smile contemptously.

Beniboybling
Yeah as impressive as the Dread Masters are, they don't possess a single feat that puts them above Palpatine's TP. And their inability to break a incapacitated Revan is a limitation Palpatine has never demonstrated.

Nephthys
Kek, as if Sidious would do any better against Revan.

Beniboybling
Yes, because he totally failed to bring Vader to his knees without Vitiate's help, 300 years, and TP connection from lightyears away, and was equally unsuccessfully in making DE Luke forgo his name in a matter of moments. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Somehow I think he'd manage.

Nephthys
Vader isn't even in the same lightyear as Revan's mental defenses. Nor is DE Luke.

AncientPower
Vader who has survived on pure willpower and has mentally trashed other Jedi like Luke and Starkiller, is nowhere near Revan? Humorous.

Nephthys
Revan came back from the freaking dead on pure willpower.

Y'all are getting this shit completely backwards. That Revan resisted the Masters and Vitiate is exactly why Sidious would fail against him, not that he would succeed because of it.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Nephthys
Vader isn't even in the same lightyear as Revan's mental defenses. Nor is DE Luke. Lawls, willpower is directly tied to one's ability to wield the Force. So I'd say Vader & DE Luke having more than comparable Force abilties to Revan proves otherwise.

SunRazer
Originally posted by Nephthys
Revan came back from the freaking dead on pure willpower.

So did Vader.

The Ellimist
The circular reasoning in putting Revan above Luke and Vader in mental resistance is funny.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Lawls, willpower is directly tied to one's ability to wield the Force. So I'd say Vader & DE Luke having more than comparable Force abilties to Revan proves otherwise.

No it isn't. erm

Non-force sensitives resist TP based on willpower all the time. Willpower is force of personality, not the Force.

Originally posted by SunRazer
So did Vader.

Nope.

The Ellimist
Sidious retained his identity in chaos from sheer willpower lol.

Nephthys
Debunked, actually. We already had this discussion.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
The circular reasoning in putting Revan above Luke and Vader in mental resistance is funny.

They don't have anything remotely close to the same league as resisting Vitiate and the Masters.

SunRazer
@Neph - Yep. He "willed himself back from the dead".

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Nephthys
No it isn't. erm

Non-force sensitives resist TP based on willpower all the time. Willpower is force of personality, not the Force.You're confused friend; I'm saying that willpower is an agent by which one wields the Force, therefore powerful expressions of the Force reflect a strong willpower, that as you so kindly pointed out, are the primary determinant of one's TP defenses.

EDIT: Though frankly its foolish to make such a distinct seperation between "force of personality" and the Force, when the Force is what sustains a person's personality. erm

Nephthys
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Your confused friend, I'm saying that willpower is an agent by which one wields the Force, therefore powerful expressions of the Force reflect a strong willpower, that as you so kindly pointed out, are the primary determinant of one's TP defenses.

And I'm saying that you're wrong. Because you are. You can't just say "X is really powerful, so obviously they have massive willpower". It's not an automatic scale. The Revan feat by itself disproves your point since he's obviously nowhere near Vitiate + the Dread Masters in power yet he still resisted them. Sidious isn't greater than their collective might either, so by your own logic he couldn't possibly be more effective than them.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
EDIT: Though frankly its foolish to make such a distinct seperation between "force of personality" and the Force, when the Force is what sustains a person's personality. erm

Tell that to Meetra Surik. And the Vong. Where on earth is this idea coming from that the Force is behind everyones minds? The **** is this, Evangelion?

The Ellimist
So did Revan get that much more strong willed from KotOR to his novel?

Anyway, Sidious still has better TP feats than them.

Nephthys
Severe brain damage is the key to unsurpassed strength of will.

Don't believe me? Try it. yes

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Nephthys
And I'm saying that you're wrong. Because you are. You can't just say "X is really powerful, so obviously they have massive willpower". It's not an automatic scale. The Revan feat by itself disproves your point since he's obviously nowhere near Vitiate + the Dread Masters in power yet he still resisted them. Sidious isn't greater than their collective might either, so by your own logic he couldn't possibly be more effective than them. Except I just did. Suck it. Sidious explicitly states in the Book of Anger that "anger, combined with will, is the key to power", and Vitiate himself describes how the Hero of Tython has "immense power, but you lack the will to direct it."

It being simply logical to infer that Force expressions are brought about by the user willing them to be. So yes they are relative. Force power reflects will power.

And I'm not seeing your point here, you are assuming that you need to be "anywhere near" someone in general to resist their TP, but seeing as TP resistance is far more reliant on willpower than other abilities I not seeing why that should be assumed the case.

And good point friend, Sidious > Vitiate + Dread Masters confirmed. yesFriend the Force sustains all living things, and binds everything together, so obviously despite being deafened to it, she was not entirely cut off. And as I recall in some book it was explained that the Vong weren't actually cut off from the Force either.

Ironically Evangelion is actually a good example here considering that much like there everyone is formed from a primordial soup/collective consciousness everyone in Star Wars is yes, formed from the Force, and when they die they become "one with the Force" i.e. return to soup.

Really this shouldn't be so hard a concept to understand, its why essence transfer is possible i.e. the transference of your conciousness from one body to another through the Force, and why spirits are able to retain their minds through the Force after death. This isn't just neurons firing off in your brain my friend, its Force-based.

Therefore it stands to reason that the stronger you become in the Force, the stronger your consciousness is made, and the fact that those with the greatest willpower happen to be the strongest of Force users reinforces this.

The Ellimist
Originally posted by Nephthys

They don't have anything remotely close to the same league as resisting Vitiate and the Masters.

no expression

> gets called out for circular reasoning
> replies by using the exact same fallacy with the exact same argument

solid 10/10 Gideon-tier debating. thumb up

Beniboybling
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Anyway, Sidious still has better TP feats than them. Yes Neph does appear to be ignoring the most critical point, but perhaps that's because he knows the Dead Masters can't win. smile

AncientPower
Ooooooooooooooooh damn, almost as if Vitiate is implied to shit on them in TP too and Sidious is still a mile ahead of Vitiate in TP as well.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Except I just did. Suck it. Sidious explicitly states in the Book of Anger that "anger, combined with will, is the key to power", and Vitiate himself describes how the Hero of Tython has "immense power, but you lack the will to direct it."

It being simply logical to infer that Force expressions are brought about by the user willing them to be. So yes they are relative. Force power reflects will power.

Obviously he's wrong because you don't need anger to be powerful. erm Also he's talking about the key to the ****ing Force Storm, not power in general. Force Storm does have some relation to willpower. That doesn't mean every force ability does. Also Vitiate got immediately pwned just after saying that, so obviously the HoT's power was enough without will.

That doesn't follow at all. Willpower doesn't need to be comparable to Force power to use the Force. People who are born stronger in the Force than others do not possess a higher degree of willpower than someone less powerful than them. They can command greater levels of power with less will than someone less powerful but with greater will. Needing to think to use the Force doesn't mean you need to think really hard to use it really well. In DR Scout showed that her will was greater than any of the other younglings despite being the weakest in the Force. Valkorion dies from getting stabbed once while Revan survives getting gangbanged by the protags through pure will. As I said, non-force sensitives can still possess wills of iron. Are they inferior to a random Jedi in willpower just because they lack the force? No. The only thing Force power reflects is how many freaking midichlorians you have.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
And I'm not seeing your point here, you are assuming that you need to be "anywhere near" someone in general to resist their TP, but seeing as TP resistance is far more reliant on willpower than other abilities I not seeing why that should be assumed the case.

Did you just...... admit that willpower is separate from power and that resisting someone's TP is about willpower instead of force power?

Lol, concession accepted?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
And good point friend, Sidious > Vitiate + Dread Masters confirmed. yes

Not at all. Your logic requires Vader and Luke to be comparable to Revan, which you support with the idea that they've got feats on par with him. But if you take willpower = power as a legitimate point then the fact that he's got willpower feats vastly greater than theirs then it's just as plausible that he's far greater than they are in power.

Of course, I know you're just trolling because you're not dumb enough to actually think this is true. I'll just take it as understood by both of us that Sidious can't TP Revan since he isn't > Vitiate + the Dread Masters and that even though he's stronger than Revan, as you just suggested you don't need to be anywhere near someone to resist them in TP.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Friend, the Force sustains all living things, and binds everything together, so obviously despite being deafened to it, she was not entirely cut off.

Wrong. It's directly stated that she was cut off from it.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Ironically Evangelion is actually a good example here considering that much like there everyone is formed from a primordial soup/collective consciousness everyone in Star Wars is yes, formed from the Force, and when they die they become "one with the Force" i.e. return to soup.

Really this shouldn't be so hard a concept to understand, its why essence transfer is possible i.e. the transference of your consciousness from one body to another through the Force, and why spirits are able to retain their minds through the Force after death. This isn't just neurons firing off in your brain my friend, its Force-based.

Therefore it stands to reason that the stronger you become in the Force, the stronger your consciousness is made, and the fact that those with the greatest willpower happen to be the strongest of Force users reinforces this.

Pure drivel. The Force can affect people's consciousnesses but it isn't made up of it. They aren't formed from the Force, the Force is formed from them. As stated in ANH.

That doesn't stand to reason at all. The Force being connected to consciousness doesn't mean that your willpower grows comparably to your force power. Character with crippling brain damage have used the Force powerfully. In TOR a literal retard could cloak fleets with the Force. He lacked the will to form sentences, but accord to you his will would eclipse 99% of Jedi. This all just a load a utter bullshit you're spewing to give characters will power feats they don't have. Its a transparently biased attempt at conceptualizing the setting.

S_W_LeGenD
@Beniboybling

You cannot just say what Revan could do, Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker (as of DE) could as well. This is not how things work.

The Ellimist
Originally posted by AncientPower
Ooooooooooooooooh damn, almost as if Vitiate is implied to shit on them in TP too and Sidious is still a mile ahead of Vitiate in TP as well.

How could that be possible, if Vitiate lived thousands of years before Sidious? How could Sidious be more powerful than someone who lived a long time ago?

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Nephthys
Obviously he's wrong because you don't need anger to be powerful. erm Also he's talking about the key to the ****ing Force Storm, not power in general. Force Storm does have some relation to willpower. That doesn't mean every force ability does. Also Vitiate got immediately pwned just after saying that, so obviously the HoT's power was enough without will.One of the greatest masters of the Force is wrong about the Force because Neph said so. no expression

He wasn't just talking in terms of Force storms either, in fact in that passage I quoted from goes on to attribute Malgus' understanding of this concept to his battlefield accomplishments. And in the Dark Empire sourcebook rendering, he describes how he himself employed this knowledge to cast Force lightning, and use Force kill from a distance. So yes, he means power in general.

And Vitiate's situation is irrelevant, what's important is him associating Force power with will, but I'm guessing the greatest master of the Force in history at that point is also wrong. Right?They tend too actually, for example Palpatine before receiving any formal training had such willpower that he was able to prevent Plagueis from intruding on his mind. But I guess it was just a coincidence he ended up going to do be the most powerful Sith Lord in history. Luke Skywalker also tested for Force sensitivity by intruding on people's minds and seeing if they would instinctively resist, but no your right, there's is clearly no correlation. These people were just really charismatic. roll eyes (sarcastic)

As for your examples:
1. An exception doesn't make the rule. It's not uncommon for someone to have innate talents in one area yet nonetheless underperform in other areas they should have comparative ability in, for unique reasons, as was the case for the Halcyon family.

2. Because the fact that he didn't means he cannot, right. I'm sure he just didn't have a big enough ego, or something... Right, kinda embarassing that I have to explain this again, though I'm just gonna quote myself:Originally posted by Beniboybling
You're confused friend; I'm saying that willpower is an agent by which one wields the Force, therefore powerful expressions of the Force reflect a strong willpower, that as you so kindly pointed out, are the primary determinant of one's TP defenses.Not that the fact it doesn't involve channelling the Force in the conventional way, mean willpower isn't ultimately a product of the resilience of a Force-based consciousness. It is. thumb upI never said willpower = Force power. Merely that they are relative, learn the difference.

Could this feat nonetheless be used against Vader and Luke power-wise? Uh yeah of course. But as far as I'm concerned a holistic comparison suggests a level of parity between them all.Nah, the notion that Sidious at the very least of DE > Vitiate + Dread Masters isn't that unbelievable at all.Which you have taken far too literally, as that would make her dead. thumb upUhuh, the chicken and the egg argument doesn't have a clear answer and isn't so easily resolved, when we have Qui-Gon telling us that without midi-chlorians, life cannot exist.

But one thing we can claim for certain is that when the Force is removed, life dies, otherwise Force drain would not be a lethal power.

And your '"retards" can't do shit' argument is a little Victorian, when there are plenty of people with mental disabilities in the real world that are nonetheless capable of amazing things. I mean you do realise that one of the most intelligent people on the planet can't string a sentence together either? No willpower my ass.So if someone disagrees with you they are "transparently biased"? Lmao.

Get over yourself. I just happen to think that Revan resisting Vitiate, the Dread Masters and coming back from the dead is actually forced based (which shockingly, you'll find is an opinion shared by others) rather than a product of his amazing personality. laughing out loud

On the other hand, do you seriously believed that a non-Force sensitive with sufficient willpower could pull off anything Revan accomplished? If so you are truly brain damaged. erm

The_Tempest
Beni just stomped Neph utterly lol.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Things I want to point out:

1. Tbh Sidious isn't a mile ahead of Vitiate in TP.
2. He should be up to par and maybe even slightly above, though.
3. The Dread Masters are shit compared to Vitiate in just about all aspects.
4. Sidious freaking annihilates the Dread Masters in TP, as he would in any other phase of combat/life.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Beni just stomped Neph utterly lol. http://r35.imgfast.net/users/3513/11/32/39/smiles/1742136542.gifOriginally posted by Nephthys
As I said, non-force sensitives can still possess wills of iron. Are they inferior to a random Jedi in willpower just because they lack the force? No. The only thing Force power reflects is how many freaking midichlorians you have.I forgot to address this, let me correct that fault.

In a word, yes. I'd say any properly trained Jedi, however two-bit, should have a superior will to even the most resilient non-Force user. Heck often untrained Force sensitives are found to possess inordinately strong wills, much stronger than there muggle brethren, for that reason.

Rey for example, untrained yet nonetheless strong in the Force resisted the telepathic intrustion of Kylo Ren, and I'd remind you that when she does so her use of the Force is audible.

And what does Kylo say when Snoke expresses disbelief that she "resisted you?", "But, she has an amazing personality!" No, he says "She's strong with the Force!". Case closed.Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
3. The Dread Masters are shit compared to Vitiate in just about all aspects.
4. Sidious freaking annihilates the Dread Masters in TP, as he would in any other phase of combat/life. Tbh I can help but question this, when we consider that the Dread Masters mastered the Phobis Devices, something Vitiate never accomplished.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Ehh? Who's to say Vitiate even wanted to master the Phobis Devices, especially if he knew how they'd affect him?

Beniboybling
Pretty sure Vitiate was interested in mastering everything dark side related. confused

And that's the point, the Phobis Devices drove everyone who tried to master then mad, other than the Dread Masters.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Well, he had possession of them, so I'd say he knew not to study them because in doing so his personal goals would be altered.

The Dread Masters weren't mad and solely driven to inspire fear across the entire galaxy?

Beniboybling
True enough, although in all fairnes, Vitiate had several screws loose as well.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I would have loose screws too if I had to be Emperor of 2 Empires and constantly talk to hundreds of insane children that I put portions of my essence into. smilesmilesmile

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Nephthys
Beni's also saying that willpower = force power and that people can't think without the force, therefore Vader = Revan in TP resistance. Insanity indeed. Can I expect a proper response Neph, or are you just going spew strawman and ad lapidems from another thread?

Nephthys
It's only been a few hours, calm ur ****. I have a life outside of you. I will respond.

Beniboybling
If you have time to b*tch you have time to type. smile

Nephthys
But not the effort required.

Beniboybling
http://static1.squarespace.com/static/5330664de4b0c8441aea50d8/t/54736626e4b06ebd6637b7ff/1416848936608/excuses

Ursumeles
Bump

Originally posted by Nephthys
I will respond.
Lmao

Not sure if Sidious stomps, or curbstomps, tbh.

Ascendancy
Location here? Are we assuming that the Masters can manifest all abilities shown and entities summoned by them? That I don't see Palps being a match for, not to the extent necessary to both face all of them simultaneously in the Force and in direct combat. The Phobis advice and their twisting of Oricon as well as their ability to summon Force manifestations, transport their forces instantaneously over distance, and alter reality make it a pretty hard sell that Papls walks in and takes the day. You're talking about him resisting mental and physical Force assaults from six powerful Sith alchemists, sorcerers, and duelists who have studied their craft for hundreds of years at the same time face-to-face. Just don't see that happening.

Azronger
Sidious stomps all rounds.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Ascendancy
Location here? Are we assuming that the Masters can manifest all abilities shown and entities summoned by them? That I don't see Palps being a match for, not to the extent necessary to both face all of them simultaneously in the Force and in direct combat. The Phobis advice and their twisting of Oricon as well as their ability to summon Force manifestations, transport their forces instantaneously over distance, and alter reality make it a pretty hard sell that Papls walks in and takes the day. You're talking about him resisting mental and physical Force assaults from six powerful Sith alchemists, sorcerers, and duelists who have studied their craft for hundreds of years at the same time face-to-face. Just don't see that happening.

This is basically how I feel about it. It's inconceivable to me that pretty much anyone could take all six of them at once.

Ascendancy
*Phobis Device even -sigh-

The Ellimist
Originally posted by Ascendancy
Location here? Are we assuming that the Masters can manifest all abilities shown and entities summoned by them? That I don't see Palps being a match for, not to the extent necessary to both face all of them simultaneously in the Force and in direct combat. The Phobis advice and their twisting of Oricon as well as their ability to summon Force manifestations, transport their forces instantaneously over distance, and alter reality make it a pretty hard sell that Papls walks in and takes the day. You're talking about him resisting mental and physical Force assaults from six powerful Sith alchemists, sorcerers, and duelists who have studied their craft for hundreds of years at the same time face-to-face. Just don't see that happening.

I see it happening. None of what you mentioned has demonstrated a fraction of the power of Darth Sidious.

Ascendancy
Except that all of it does? Except that much of what they demonstrated is beyond someone like Gethzerion, and he wouldn't even go near her system? If you think Sidious would walk in and facerull the entirety of the Dread Council you're just ignoring what they've shown themselves to be capable of. They more than elicit the Force beyond a fraction of his powers on their own, let alone as a group.

SunRazer
Sidious rips them apart.

And I thought the Dread Masters' power, in concert, made it irrelevant whether it was being channeled through one or all six of them?

The Ellimist
Originally posted by Ascendancy
The Phobis advice

Sidious collected and studied millions of pieces of work from across his Empire, and by Dark Empire had been rumored to know basically every Force technique, and was creating new ones on a whim. I don't think just learning some device puts the dread masters on his level.



TPM Sidious twisted the Force itself by meditating; before the OT, he had mentally enslaved an entire planetary population for use as a dark side battery, and by RotJ he was casually transferring people's consciousnesses.



Sidious and Vader can both do this.



Sidious can transport Luke light-years via his storms.



When have the dread masters turned the balance of the Force to the point where the Force had to create a being from immaculate conception just to fight them? When have they enslaved an entire planetary populace? When have they mentally dominated someone on the level of DE Luke? When have they overloaded Yoda's tutanimus? When have they generated force storms capable of destroying planetary surfaces and annihilating entire fleets?

BTW by official statements, DE Sidious > RotS Sidious > Plagueis > Vitiate >>> the Dread Masters.

Ursumeles
Sidious, with ease.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Shrouded the long-range precognitive abilities of the most powerful Jedi Order in galactic history.
The Force imbalance played its part in this.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Mind controlled the entire population of Byss.
Not instantly

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Removed the memory of the take-off of a super star destroyer from the minds of potentially tens of trillions or more.
Source for those numbers?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Yeah, Palpatine's telepathy is pretty far beyond the Dead Masters'.
It isn't.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Sidious retained his identity in chaos from sheer willpower lol.
That revelation is in dispute in official sources.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Beniboybling
One of the greatest masters of the Force is wrong about the Force because Neph said so. no expression

He wasn't just talking in terms of Force storms either, in fact in that passage I quoted from goes on to attribute Malgus' understanding of this concept to his battlefield accomplishments. And in the Dark Empire sourcebook rendering, he describes how he himself employed this knowledge to cast Force lightning, and use Force kill from a distance. So yes, he means power in general.

And Vitiate's situation is irrelevant, what's important is him associating Force power with will, but I'm guessing the greatest master of the Force in history at that point is also wrong. Right?They tend too actually, for example Palpatine before receiving any formal training had such willpower that he was able to prevent Plagueis from intruding on his mind. But I guess it was just a coincidence he ended up going to do be the most powerful Sith Lord in history. Luke Skywalker also tested for Force sensitivity by intruding on people's minds and seeing if they would instinctively resist, but no your right, there's is clearly no correlation. These people were just really charismatic. roll eyes (sarcastic)
Definition of WILL: the faculty by which a person decides on and initiates action.

Definition of WILLPOWER: control deliberately exerted to do something or to restrain one's own impulses.

It is obvious that will is involved in the initiation of each act, and willpower is about self-control.

However, will is not an expression of mental defense in itself. Mental defenses are actual Force powers.

Argument is that Revan's ability to resist telepathic intrusions is beyond that of Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker (as of Dark Empire) as apparent from his showings. Revan's extraordinary command of the Force in-conjunction with his extraordinary willpower made it possible for him to resist telepathic influence of Vitiate and the Dread Masters for centuries.

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