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The Darth Bane quote doesn't consider SWTOR.

I ****ing told all of you. Concessions accepted to all.

Well, tbh that should also extend to quotes placing Sidious above Valkorion.

Checkmate.

"Unfortunately, this isn't considered in our publication as it is not in cannon."

So SWTOR isn't even Legends canon?

SWTOR confirmed Infinities trash.

Nevermind, Revan Novel.

Nah. If you go to a store, they have the Legends sticker on it.

Unsurprisingly, like I told all of you, Fact Files nevertheless wasn't considering it in their assessment.

Revan and Vitiate continue to reign supreme as the top EU powerhouses.

Originally posted by Trocity
"Unfortunately, this isn't considered in our publication as it is not in cannon."

So SWTOR isn't even Legends canon?

SWTOR confirmed Infinities trash.

Yeah... Clearly he doesn't know what he is talking about.

Dude can't even spell canon right.

Point being, this prolly also applies to the whole Sidious > Vitiate via quotes thing as well.

My triumph here, especially considering how laughable the company's response was, surpasses even the crumbling of Kulvax's reign on SWTOR.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Point being, this prolly also applies to the whole Sidious > Vitiate via quotes thing as well.

Yeah, SWTOR isn't even Legends.

Originally posted by ares834
Yeah, SWTOR isn't even Legends.
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51b37l%2BzowL._SY344_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

?

Now people will actually have to look at what they've both done, and decide who's superior.

Still Sidious, kek

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51b37l%2BzowL._SY344_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

?

I said SWTOR as in the game not the Revan novel.

u guys r soooo weird lmao its fictional characters stop crying

Goddamn it, Novel Vitiate and Revan were ****ing shit

Originally posted by ares834
I said SWTOR as in the game not the Revan novel.

Did you miss how it says Star Wars: The Old Republic in giant letters on the cover?

What do you think Swtor stands for, bro?

Even if the dude doesn't know what he's talking about, all we have to know is that statements of all times don't consider SWTOR.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Did you miss how it says Star Wars: The Old Republic in giant letters on the cover?

What do you think Swtor stands for, bro?

Star Wars: The Old Republic.

Of course, that doesn't mean the game is canon.

I'm not sure what the new controversy is. We knew for a while that SWTOR was generally in a grey area - not fully in Legends, canon, or non-canon.

As a community we still accept it as Legends though, especially considering the novels and certain events featured in sourcebooks are undisputededly Legends.

Originally posted by ares834
Star Wars: The Old Republic.

Of course, that doesn't mean the game is canon.

Of course not. It's Legends.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Even if the dude doesn't know what he's talking about, all we have to know is that statements of all times don't consider SWTOR.

Yeah, obviously.......

Originally posted by ares834
Yeah, SWTOR isn't even Legends.

@ares834: The publisher of Fact Files thinks SWTOR is non-canon, as shown in the tweet. That's all that matters.

Because of such, Vitiate and prime Revan are explicitly not being considered in a quote that states Darth Bane is more powerful than all before him.

The publisher confirmed they aren't be considered. Regardless of their reasons being stupid, the fact remains that they weren't considered.

Dm Bane is canonically superior
Canon feats > Legends feats
Bane wins
All hail Bane
All bow down to Bane

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah, obviously.......

Indeed. An obvious jest considering my first post was:

Originally posted by ares834
Yeah... Clearly he doesn't know what he is talking about.

In reply to...

Originally posted by Trocity
"Unfortunately, this isn't considered in our publication as it is not in cannon."

So SWTOR isn't even Legends canon?

SWTOR confirmed Infinities trash.

So Ant, what do you think the quote does apply to? Is Bane above Exar Kun, Nadd, Muur etc?

Exar Kun and friends were explicitly mentioned in one of the fact files.

But no, I think the quote only applies to the time period regardless.

Now that Revan and Vitiate are preserved though, I don't really care what others think about it.

PS: I probably have Darth Bane above Karness Muur regardless - or at least equals.

It's not that hard to comprehend, ares.

SWTOR has been confirmed to have not been considered in the quote.

And so, when used in debates, we shouldn't state SWTOR is being considered...

Because it's explicitly not.

That was the central debate of the past several days here.

It's been used to argue Darth Bane is factually superior to Vitiate and whatnot.

Basically, Revan, Vitiate, the Dread, Malgus, etc. have been granted immunity.

Embrace it.

The publisher? Didn't you say the publishers and their blurbs had no say on what's true or not true about the content?

And why is this in VS?

u r retarded, in the continuity discussed here swtor is canon, the quote would count for the continuity discussed here

Originally posted by NewGuy01
The publisher? Didn't you say the publishers and their blurbs had no say on what's true or not true about the content?
No? I said that "someone in marketing just trying to sell the book" (aka the people who write the blurbs) don't have any say.

Originally posted by diomiosio123
u r retarded, in the continuity discussed here swtor is canon, the quote would count for the continuity discussed here
Seems too suspicious to not be a sock.

Jack?

im right? he says it doesnt consider swtor because swtor isnt canon, well here swtor is still treated as canon, so the quote must be valid for swtor too

That's not the point. The point is SWTOR wasn't even considered when the quote was written, so it shouldn't be valid regardless of the reasons why it wasn't considered.

Authors and publishers have the authority to clarify their own works.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
No? I said that "someone in marketing just trying to sell the book" (aka the people who write the blurbs) don't have any say.

Yeah, that's what publishers do. They aren't writers.

Ant, Beni is saying that Sidious can TP Revan in the Dread Masters thread. Heresy?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
No? I said that "someone in marketing just trying to sell the book" (aka the people who write the blurbs) don't have any say. Yet the guy across the room who deals with their twitter page does. Right.

Of course he would say that because it's not canon, this wasn't asked when the EU was still intact.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Ant, Beni is saying that Sidious can TP Revan in the Dread Masters thread. Heresy?
We've established his insanity years ago.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Ant, Beni is saying that Sidious can TP Revan in the Dread Masters thread. Heresy? Running to Ant for help Neph? Adorable.

Well, Sidious can't TP Revan, kek.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Running to Ant for help Neph? Adorable.
If what Neph says is true, which it probably is knowing you, Neph doesn't need help or even have to type a response at all.

You conceded the moment you typed the words that prove you shouldn't be taken seriously.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
It's not that hard to comprehend, ares.

SWTOR has been confirmed to have not been considered in the quote.

And so, when used in debates, we shouldn't state SWTOR is being considered...

Because it's explicitly not.

That was the central debate of the past several days here.

It's been used to argue Darth Bane is factually superior to Vitiate and whatnot.

Basically, Revan, Vitiate, the Dread, Malgus, etc. have been granted immunity.

Embrace it.

That's nice, but it fails to address my point. I'm not saying that SWTOR was considered, what I'm saying is that it's pretty much irrelevant that it wasn't. The quote is canon regardless of what is considered.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
If what Neph says is true, which it probably is knowing you, Neph doesn't need help or even have to type a response at all.

You conceded the moment you typed the words that prove you shouldn't be taken seriously. You know I'm having trouble remembering when I asked for your opinion...

Nonetheless rest assured that Neph has been thoroughly schooled, hence why he is begging you for help.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
You know I'm having trouble remembering when I asked for your opinion...
Cringe.

That was a pretty cringy response, ngl.

What were you expecting, an effort?

Nah, just something not so weak and...cringy.

C'mon, I trusted you Beni. You're a powerful being when you try. So just try, damn it. And debate more relevant topics.

Kys.

Beni's also saying that willpower = force power and that people can't think without the force, therefore Vader = Revan in TP resistance. Insanity indeed.

The topics have to be relevant and not full of dumb comments within the first 2 posts to be debated in Skillz.

There's more to your intelligence than SW, Beni. Unleash the beast.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
The topics have to be relevant and not full of dumb comments within the first 2 posts to be debated in Skillz.

I wasn't saying his post was cringy because it wasn't serious, but rather because his witty retort was cringy.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yet the guy across the room who deals with their twitter page does. Right.

Bump because it seems Ant hasn't responded

Sel, Bane > Valk: yes no?

Your thoughts are always pretty interesting.

Don't really care?

I'm leling at that retarded argument on the first two pages that ignored Disney saying SWTOR was in the EU. Everyone, kys.

New Sig 4 me

Moar powertrip

> introduces quote
> basks in triumph of discrediting it

Damn...sounds a lot like KotOR Revan, actually.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Point being, this prolly also applies to the whole Sidious > Vitiate via quotes thing as well.

How so? Those are all Legends quotes from other authors, lmao.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I'm leling at that retarded argument on the first two pages that ignored Disney saying SWTOR was in the EU. Everyone, kys.

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/swtor%20is%20legends_zpsbes627eh.png

Those other quotes are about as inclusive of SWTOR as this one, especially given when the vast majority of them were made.

April 9 of this year. Seriously, did you even read it? Kys again.

Originally posted by Selenial
Bump because it seems Ant hasn't responded

LOL

Yeah this is ironically becoming embarrassing for Ant, just like the original quote.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
> introduces quote
> basks in triumph of discrediting it
> discredit is discredited

Damn...sounds a lot like KotOR Revan, actually. Sounds a lot like Revan in general.

We need to all try to master the Dark and the Light side!

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I'm leling at that retarded argument on the first two pages that ignored Disney saying SWTOR was in the EU. Everyone, kys.

A joke taken too far.

I know what you meant, but then it turned into a two page debate.

This has been a fun phase of SW debating tbh.

Play time's over. http://r35.imgfast.net/users/3513/11/32/39/smiles/1790400411.gif

Sup ILS.

There's only one reason you'd be awake at this time.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Sup ILS.

There's only one reason you'd be awake at this time. An kekirino timing mein negher

Let's see what Cloud 9 brings the forum this fine night, shall we?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
> introduces quote
> basks in triumph of discrediting it
I gave the quote to the Bane Brigade via chat as a sign of friendship.

The quote didn't go as expected so it had to be destroyed.

I never personally introduced the quote on any forum, that I recall.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yet the guy across the room who deals with their twitter page does. Right.
Different. I'm merely asking the twitter guy for clarification on work already produced. He knew the answer, or at least asked legitimate staff for said answer, and responded.

There's a clear distinction from that and then allowing the guy across the room to establish new canon hierarchy or create original content on equal footing than the book itself.

You don't see the petty fogging here? Lmao, it's not like the publisher doesn't consult the author before writing the back blurb.

Karpyshyn seemed to imply he had nothing to do with blurbs all together, so no, I doubt it.

Karpyshyn is Karpyshyn, good for him. But I somehow doubt that most authors are carefully considering the canonical and vs. debate implications of questions the intern hired to run their twitter page may or may not have consulted with them on.

What's there to consider besides if SWTOR is being considered in the fact files (my question and their answer)?

You've lost. Give up.

Fact File also says Bane>Kun. That also matters.

How does that change the question of reliability at all? They didn't even get the definition of "canon" right, kek.

But since none of the ancient sith are canon anyway, you just rendered your own quote invalid. Strangely enough, you're boasting about this self-defeat as if it were a victory, lmao.

facepalm It doesn't matter what the reality is, just what the makers of the quote think it is.

You lost and honestly even admitted it (pages prior).

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
facepalm It doesn't matter what the reality is, just what the makers of the quote think it is.


And what Beni and co. have been trying to tell you is that the makers of the quote didn't even say this, by the same standards you use to dismiss the Plagueis back cover quote - which came out after Vitiate's creation.

Your only suspiciously delayed response was that this twitter page responding to random tweets carefully consults the authors whereas the publisher writing the blurbs that everyone who buys the book can see does not.



Lmao if you think discrediting your own quote counts as a victory for you, or that I would see Bane lowballing as a defeat.

If I discredited it, as you stated in your third line of rambling, why type two additional lines of rambling?

Stop trying to save face. You were wrong. I was right. I get the ice-cream. You get the back of the white van.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
If I discredited it, as you stated in your third line of rambling, why type two additional lines of rambling?

Lmao, it's called an even-if statement. "You're wrong on point X, but even if you were right on point X, its implications don't matter or even work against you."

I think you're getting a little sloppy. You are enraged and desperate to defeat the shadow of The Sith Emperor The Gideon and now have gone on a hysteria of mass replicated arguments in a desperate attempt to genocide an entire quote...sort of like a certain fictional character... mmm

I can't believe that you people really manage to "debate" this. You just, really, need to ask two questions:

1) Was the source in question released post "Disney Wars"?
2) Has the source "Legends" written on it?

If it's "yes" for 1 and "no" for 2, it is obvious that only Disney canon is considered in which large parts of the EU / Legends don't exist - unless explicitly mentioned in the new canon source material or within the source in question.

This is like quoting one of the Visual Dictionary and assume that it considers stuff outside the movies...

Is this the Bane > all quote? Yeah, never subscribed to it.

The first smart post all thread.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
facepalm It doesn't matter what the reality is, just what the makers of the quote think it is.

You lost and honestly even admitted it (pages prior). Dude you realise that the publishers didn't "make" the quote, all they did was publish it.

Publishers =/= authors, and only Lucas Liscening has the authority to vet material, and determine the facts of continuity. What this guy thinks is irrelevant, as it is wrong, and his opinions could of in no way informed the wording of the text. Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Different. I'm merely asking the twitter guy for clarification on work already produced. He knew the answer, or at least asked legitimate staff for said answer, and responded.

There's a clear distinction from that and then allowing the guy across the room to establish new canon hierarchy or create original content on equal footing than the book itself. It's really not, but treating the word of this publisher as accurate, you have conceded that the publisher, through whatever means, can make informed and accurate statements regarding canon. Therefore you must assume them informed on continuity when writing the blurbs you've previously dismissed as the opposite, uninformed.

Of course its since been proven the man is not accurate, but that wasn't the contexts in which you made the claim. So the double-standard stands.Originally posted by The Ellimist
You don't see the petty fogging here? Lmao, it's not like the publisher doesn't consult the author before writing the back blurb. The publisher would have no business consulting the author anyway, the only people who are an authority on canon are Lucas Licensing, who vet the authors work and inform them on matters of continuity.

Now ironically enough Lucas Liscening has a publishing division, so for all we know this "guy in marketing" could well be a Lucas Books employee, far more an authority on canon than Drew.

Yet even if this was instead written by say, Del Rey, the fact remains that we should assume that just as the author's work is vetted and approve by Lucas Licensing, so is the blurb. Which would make it just as canon as the content, regardless of who wrote it.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Now ironically enough Lucas Liscening has a publishing division, so for all we know this "guy in marketing" could well be a Lucas Books employee, far more an authority on canon than Drew.

Yet even if this was instead written by say, Del Rey, the fact remains that we should assume that just as the author's work is vetted and approve by Lucas Licensing, so is the blurb. Which would make it just as canon as the content, regardless of who wrote it.
Right.

So Darth Bane > Valkorion?

Thanks but no thanks. I'd prefer to ignore blurbs.

"I'd prefer to ignore blurbs, therefore everyone else must as well." lol

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Dude you realise that the publishers didn't "make" the quote, all they did was publish it.

Publishers =/= authors, and only Lucas Liscening has the authority to vet material, and determine the facts of continuity. What this guy thinks is irrelevant, as it is wrong, and his opinions could of in no way informed the wording of the text. It's really not, but treating the word of this publisher as accurate, you have conceded that the publisher, through whatever means, can make informed and accurate statements regarding canon. Therefore you must assume them informed on continuity when writing the blurbs you've previously dismissed as the opposite, uninformed.

Of course its since been proven the man is not accurate, but that wasn't the contexts in which you made the claim. So the double-standard stands.The publisher would have no business consulting the author anyway, the only people who are an authority on canon are Lucas Licensing, who vet the authors work and inform them on matters of continuity.

Now ironically enough Lucas Liscening has a publishing division, so for all we know this "guy in marketing" could well be a Lucas Books employee, far more an authority on canon than Drew.

Yet even if this was instead written by say, Del Rey, the fact remains that we should assume that just as the author's work is vetted and approve by Lucas Licensing, so is the blurb. Which would make it just as canon as the content, regardless of who wrote it.

http://thememesfactory.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/1235462_10151603392301681_1027968550_n1.jpg

The "PT brigade" 's ongoing victory is quite impressive indeed.

It turned internet sentiment from the Ancients being vastly more powerful than Sidious, to being weaker than Sidious but all quite a bit beyond Vader, to most of them being below Vader but still above Dooku, to now only a few of them even being stronger than Tyranus. Obi Wan vs. Malak would once get a bunch of lol's in favor of Malak; now, most would pick Obi Wan. Kas'im went from being a match for Sidious as a duelist to Kas'im vs. Dooku being a troll thread.

Ant's greatest efforts have been in vain, and by the time he reaches his peak, it will probably be too late.

Which ancients are below Dooku? Muur was compared favorably to Vader and he's below Kun, Nadd, Vitiate, Pall, Hord, Bane etc. All the major ones. Only those relatively unknown would go below Dooku.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Dude you realise that the publishers didn't "make" the quote, all they did was publish it.

Publishers =/= authors, and only Lucas Liscening has the authority to vet material, and determine the facts of continuity. What this guy thinks is irrelevant, as it is wrong, and his opinions could of in no way informed the wording of the text. It's really not, but treating the word of this publisher as accurate, you have conceded that the publisher, through whatever means, can make informed and accurate statements regarding canon. Therefore you must assume them informed on continuity when writing the blurbs you've previously dismissed as the opposite, uninformed.

Of course its since been proven the man is not accurate, but that wasn't the contexts in which you made the claim. So the double-standard stands.The publisher would have no business consulting the author anyway, the only people who are an authority on canon are Lucas Licensing, who vet the authors work and inform them on matters of continuity.

Now ironically enough Lucas Liscening has a publishing division, so for all we know this "guy in marketing" could well be a Lucas Books employee, far more an authority on canon than Drew.

Yet even if this was instead written by say, Del Rey, the fact remains that we should assume that just as the author's work is vetted and approve by Lucas Licensing, so is the blurb. Which would make it just as canon as the content, regardless of who wrote it.
I stated that I found a massive difference between the publisher clarifying content and creating content.

Whatever response to that claim you might have had got lost in a fifteen-thousand character long rambling session.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Which ancients are below Dooku? Muur was compared favorably to Vader and he's below Kun, Nadd, Vitiate, Pall, Hord, Bane etc. All the major ones. Only those relatively unknown would go below Dooku.
I'd put Kallig and Kressh above Dooku as well.

The petty fogging is hilariously transparent. If you don't trust the publisher to "create" new content, why do you trust them to clarify made ones? How and why did you draw that distinction?

The distinction being drawn between clarifying and creating.

Note to Ant: restating your assertion does not justify it.

Keep trying.

The difference between the two should be self-evident.

That's not what your burden is, sweetie. You don't just need to establish a distinction - you need to explain why that is where you draw the line, and nowhere else. Yes, clarifying material* is a lesser strain than creating new ones - but that doesn't change the fact that all of your arguments against the latter still apply to the former, and it seems mighty convenient of you to just happen to say that the line where the publisher's credibility is sufficient is right after it's convenient for you. This is the same concept that you weren't able to grasp in the "is Palpatine a universe buster?" thread for some weird reason.

* seeing as how Plagueis himself claimed that he was the strongest sith ever in the novel, the publisher isn't even creating new content - it's just clarifying that Plaguies was right.

Yeah, honestly sounds like Ant is making up his standards as he goes along on the basis of personal convenience.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
That's not what your burden is, sweetie. You don't just need to establish a distinction - you need to explain why that is where you draw the line, and nowhere else. Yes, clarifying material* is a lesser strain than creating new ones - but that doesn't change the fact that all of your arguments against the latter still apply to the former, and it seems mighty convenient of you to just happen to say that the line where the publisher's credibility is sufficient is right after it's convenient for you. This is the same concept that you weren't able to grasp in the "is Palpatine a universe buster?" thread for some weird reason.

* seeing as how Plagueis himself claimed that he was the strongest sith ever in the novel, the publisher isn't even creating new content - it's just clarifying that Plaguies was right.
Why? You already openly embraced blurbs as legitimate, so you should have no trouble then believing the tweet as per your shitty arguments.

You're just bitching about how I personally see things to mask your hilarious defeat here when you said that they were clearly also considering SWTOR but turned out to be wrong.

BTW, I just did a quick Ctrl+F on my .txt of the novel with the term "most powerful" and no results for Darth Plagueis thinking about himself like that came up.

We can also be sure that Ant would be making the same argument as me, perhaps less rigorously, if the Twitter page returned a different answer, lmao.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Why? You already openly embraced blurbs as legitimate, so you should have no trouble then believing the tweet as per your shitty arguments.


LMFAO. You completely messed up the logic, and it's hilarious. Beni was pointing out a double standard in your line of argument. I'm saying that your own criteria contradicts what you're doing here, not that I agree with said criteria. Pointing out contradictions in someone's argument doesn't require that you agree with what you're contradicting them with, lol. It just means that you have to either:

1. Discredit this quote and uphold the Plagueis > Vitiate one.
2. discredit the Plagueis > Vitiate one and concede to this one.
3. Actually explain your double standard.

You're backtracking pretty profusely tbh.




Wow, you like, completely and utterly dropped actually explaining the double standard. I'm just bolding and huge-sizing this so that people can better notice it. Everyone already has, tbh.



https://books.google.com/books?id=0Dz8LghGzcUC&pg=PA279&lpg=PA279&dq=darth+plagueis+with+him+to+the+grave&source=bl&ots=jtcdv07WLb&sig=FaYvLkfMSQuBVUVUPddOWVn_hQg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwju4--w7_rMAhXHjz4KHfZeDiIQ6AEISTAH#v=onepage& amp;q=darth%20plagueis%20with%20him%20to%20the%20g
rave&f=false

So you openly embrace you lost the Bane quote war, but are bitching for the sole purpose of bitching? Gotcha.

And the quote doesn't state what you acted like it did, so no.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
So you openly embrace you lost the Bane quote war

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3b/Paris_Tuileries_Garden_Facepalm_statue.jpg

OK, so given your suspicious retreat from explaining your double standard, or actually responding to any of my argumentation beyond just making snappy one liners, I'll take that as a concession of your previous "publisher statements don't matter" position.

In that case, yes, I absolutely do. Because I get a far better deal; you concede that Plagueis > Vitiate, and I get to keep Sidious > Vitiate and shit on Bane. Congrats.

By the way, discrediting a quote that you yourself championed until you realized its implications doesn't count as a "victory" for you, lmao.

So, you do concede. Got it.

kek, just realized Ant is essentially the 'supa hot fire' of this forum.

best analogy ever 10/10 I win

Thanks for your reciprocal concession that Plagueis > Vitiate.

You literally just conceded your entire life mission so that you could defeat the mighty Darth Bane, lawl.

For your future growth as a burgeoning debater, when somebody presents a series of arguments, responding with a one-liner usually isn't a really substantive reply.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
kek, just realized Ant is essentially the 'supa hot fire' of this forum.

best analogy ever 10/10 I win
A win record of 398,246,301 to 0 and being the Mayor of Kenja?

Sounds pretty beastly. mmm

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Thanks for your reciprocal concession that Plagueis > Vitiate.


For your future growth as a burgeoning debater, when somebody presents a series of arguments, responding with a one-liner usually isn't a really substantive reply.



When publishers clarify a quote, they're presumably first asking the author for clarification (in this case in particular, DeAgostiniUK appears to be both the writers and the publishers), or at the least know the answer to the question. They're not creating anything new or original. In the case of Darth Plagueis vs Vitiate, the random guy in marketing is establishing Darth Plagueis as the most powerful Sith Lord in history with no connection or clarification of the author's work, thus why I don't take it seriously.

That's how I see things, at least.

Yes, under your definition/standard of victory, it's true.

Idk about Kenya though. Maybe Sith was right about you all these years idk.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66



lol, well nice job literally ignoring the question for a page.



Justify your assumption that the Twitter page handler consults the author in answering a random tweet, but the publisher doesn't consult the author in writing the back blurb that is one of the first things everyone who buys or even looks at the book will see.

Or do you think the author and publisher sit around and decide to only communicate with the Twitter question, because that constitutes a "clarification" rather than an "addition"? Rather than, you know, the comparative importance of the black blurb of a hardcover and a random twitter reply?

Wait a second - by your own argument, wouldn't the fact that an addition is a greater leap in the literature than a clarification make it more likely that the author would be consulted?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
kek, just realized Ant is essentially the 'supa hot fire' of this forum.

best analogy ever 10/10 I win

This tbh

10/10 rekt

Because, like I already stated, Karpyshyn seemed to make it pretty obvious he had no connection with the blurbs?

The twitter page wouldn't have answered if they couldn't have clarified, unless you think they're bluffing?

Anticus, did ye find le emails?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Because, like I already stated, Karpyshyn seemed to make it pretty obvious he had no connection with the blurbs?


That doesn't answer the question, which was:

a) which was more consulted, not whether the blurbs were. They could have both been random statements.
b) not related to the particular relationship of Karpyshyn and his publisher.




So were they bluffing with the blurb? What's the difference? In both cases their goal is to, as you put it, sell copies, either by having a catchy summary or by bolstering the fandom. You haven't explained how either is different in the authority that it carries.

--------

I still find it interesting that you think publishers don't possess any sort of creative license over the Star Wars universe. Where did you get that impression? Some weird, indecipherable metric of how much "thought" they put into it? Some weird babble about how they do things for money, whereas authors and Lucas obviously don't? They have licensing from Lucas/Disney, and the novel was still vetted by the same approval mechanism. And if Luceno really objected to the blurb, he could've easily said something, kek.

For one, I'm assuming Karpyshyn's relationship with the publisher is the same as other authors.

I doubt they would do things differently depending on the author.

If that isn't the case, Karpyshyn is all we have to go off anyway, so we should use it for reference until further notice.

Given the blurbs featured absolutely no consulting, it's obvious that the Twitter one featured more, otherwise, like I said, they couldn't have made the claim.

The blurbs didn't require connections and understanding with the author to write it. The twitter response did, otherwise they wouldn't have known if the authors considered SWTOR or not.

The two quotes are different (one is creating an independent quote, the other is clarifying a pre-existing quote), and thus due to the inherit distinction between the two, I consider one and not the other.

If they wielded the same nature, you and Beni would have a point. But they don't.

There's an actually a much easier way to go about this and that's to interpret any quote/statement in a fashion that renders the least amount of contradictions. Obviously, if we are to conclude that Bane is literally more powerful and knowledgeable than anyone who has come before, that raises a great deal of contradictions and makes the Bane a complete numbskull throughout the Bane trilogy. Who needs the rule of two when you've got nigh-immortality like Vitiate's and force-drain capabilities like Nihilus? There are much smarter ways to get revenge on the Jedi and rule the galaxy as opposed hoping that no Sith apprentice ever ends the rule of two in the fashion Vader did.

On the other hand, if if we to take that quote as a reflection of non-legends characters, a retcon (in case future discussions should be premised on pre and post-retcon versions of these characters), unquantifiable puffery or simply, as Palpatine would put it, a different "point of view" on what constitutes power and knowledge (something future writers are welcome to clarify on), the Bane Trilogy makes sense, as do subsequent works.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
For one, I'm assuming Karpyshyn's relationship with the publisher is the same as other authors.

I doubt they would do things differently depending on the author.


Because...? It's entirely a matter of the author's initiative. It's not like Karpyshyn was forced to go with a blurb, and Luceno probably has the same ability to question anything he doesn't like.



KEK, no. If it doesn't give us information, it doesn't give us information.



Or they made the claim based on their own perspective/opinion, just like the back blurb.



See above.



My question of why publishers don't have any creative license went conveniently ignored in your reply.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
There's an actually a much easier way to go about this and that's to interpret any quote/statement in a fashion that renders the least amount of contradictions.

This is true, though from the Vader vs. Revan thread, Ant doesn't really like this basic principle of empiricism.



Well, to be fair Bane had to hide from the Jedi, and he didn't have 8000 sith to replicate Nathema with.



Yeah, I don't actually think Bane is more powerful than Valkorion. But I do buy that Plagueis > Vitiate. It both goes without contradicting any other source material and fits thematically with Plagueis/Sidious's positions in the mythos.

Opinion isn't required to answer the question if SWTOR is being recognized in the material or not. So no.


Do you also readily accept Revan being the most powerful Sith Lord in history, sans Solo and Palpatine, as of like pre-2010?

No source material contradicts it and it fits thematically with Revan's position as the poster-boy of the pre-TPM EU.

I would be, but hasbro toys has no relation to any canon material whatsoever, so no. And like the Bane quote; or rather, even more so, what you're referring to can be interpreted in a number of ways.

It's not Hasbro toys. It's by the company that publishes the sourcebooks like KotOR campaign guide or the Legacy campaign guide.

Is it an official publication by the company, or a freelance article by one of the writers?

EDIT: Looking at your RT, it's from Wizards of the Coast. I never really understood their place in the grand scheme of things, largely because their site has been down since the beginning of time.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Opinion isn't required to answer the question if SWTOR is being recognized in the material or not. So no.


Actually, the account answered the question using the reasoning that TOR wasn't canon, .ie whoever made the post didn't understand the Legends/Canon continuity, which as Tempest demonstrated still has TOR as a part of Legends.

It's therefore possible that the Twitter account did not consult the author and instead tried to answer using its understanding of policy, or even that the authors themselves got the policy wrong.



What published literature says that?

Regardless, any conclusion of that nature would have us return the value that Palpatine (and likely Plagueis before) is still the strongest using the precedents in evidence that it sets, and from powerscaling we can wank the PT just as hard. So I'll wait and see what you're referring to.

I think it's either from an online article or the back of some package. The quote reads:

"The Star Wars universe has created some truly vile dark side villains. Have you ever wondered what would happen if the most powerful Sith Lords duked it out for supremacy of the galaxy?"

IIRC It's in reference to some pack of cards or something which include 3 factions; one lead by Sidious, another by Caedus, another by Revan.

@Sasukedc: The latter, but what's the difference to the point I'm trying to make here?

Both the Wizard of the Coast articles and Fact Files only connection with legitimate canon material is that they are "used under authorization" of LucasArts.

It's published on a website that's been approved of by LucasArts, just as Fact Files are approved by LucasArts to make the content.

I doubt either are being run through by canon heads to ensure the content is accurate.

That doesn't necessarily mean that those are numbers 1, 2 and 3. If you go to the Olympics somebody might say that you're getting to see the best in the world; that doesn't mean that all of the n Olympians present cover the range of 1-n in the world, with no missed spots.

And it would also leave us to conclude that Darth Revan > Vitiate, and combining it with other sources, that Sidious > Darth Revan > Vitiate, which helps me.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66

I doubt either are being run through by canon heads to ensure the content is accurate.

> brags about finding a quote all over Google hangout
> argues that the quote is illegitimate
> brags about how he "won" the "Bane wars" by discrediting his own quote

Again, the allusions to KotOR Revan's story are scary. Like, Tempest's Palpatine persona scary.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
@Sasukedc: The latter, but what's the difference to the point I'm trying to make here?


Well, it's the difference between officially published content like Plagueis, and something that's not like the Wizards of the Coast article. Your point, that both have to be taken seriously if one is, is invalid for that reason. While I personally consider the information in the same way I would a Drew or Avellone quote, it has no canonical basis and therefore doesn't hold the same weight in a debate. Ellimist would be perfectly right to ignore it, and still use the Plagueis quote.

Conversely, your argument in this thread is that some guy involved with the publishing company has a say on the content of the fact file. Which would be fine, if you didn't outright reject official material like the back cover of Plagueis because it wasn't directly written by the author. Yours is a double standard, unlike the example above.

Do you see the difference between the two examples, here? Why it works one way, and not the other?

I'm comparing Wizards of the Coast to the Fact Files, not Wizards of the Coast to Darth Plagueis.

---

I explained why I found one to work and not the other, regardless if you disagree.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
There's an actually a much easier way to go about this and that's to interpret any quote/statement in a fashion that renders the least amount of contradictions. Obviously, if we are to conclude that Bane is literally more powerful and knowledgeable than anyone who has come before, that raises a great deal of contradictions and makes the Bane a complete numbskull throughout the Bane trilogy. Who needs the rule of two when you've got nigh-immortality like Vitiate's and force-drain capabilities like Nihilus? This logic is flawed, though. In the case of Nihilus, Bane wouldn't have to possess the same drain as him to be more powerful/knowledgeable than him. It doesn't mean he has the knowledge or power of all his predecessors combined, just more than any one individual. Not that i agree with the quote, anyway.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66

I explained why I found one to work and not the other, regardless if you disagree.

This sentence could be applied to every argument anyone ever made here, lol.

BTW no disrespect intended, but I'm calling you supa hot fire from now on.

I mean, this isn't even a debate on something that applies to the forum as a whole (I already won that one), just my personal standards, which has always been different from the masses.

Oh, I have no idea about the legitimacy of the fact files.

---

Unfortunately, covering your ears and saying it's my opinion is no way to debate; much less debate and claim that you've won.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
(I already won that one)

https://media.giphy.com/media/xvWLAWTMsaEtG/giphy.gif

Of course you did, supa. You were so good, you were even able to ignore entire posts and arguments and still win by believing in yourself!.

The point that supa hot ant has literally refused to even respond to for the last several pages is that he's trying to masturbate to himself discrediting his own quote!

@Sasukedc: It's really just my opinion versus your own at this stage. You haven't presented legitimate facts to support a lack of distinction either.

I claim I won because the Darth Bane quote is now null. We are merely debating the implications of this on me personally, which I won't apply anyway.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
http://i.imgur.com/r73VJe3.gif?noredirect

Of course you did, supa. You were so good, you were even able to ignore entire posts and arguments and still win by your sheer reputation and Kenyan royalty.

The point that supa hot ant has literally refused to even respond to for the last several pages is that he's trying to masturbate to himself discrediting his own quote!
*Kenjan.

Do you even not rap, m8?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
@Sasukedc: It's really just my opinion versus your own at this stage. You haven't presented legitimate facts to support a lack of distinction either.


Burden of proof lies on you to establish one, kek. You're getting sloppy.



Which would be break even since it just returns to the status quo before you championed the quote, .ie like Revan beating Malak. The real question is whether you can contain the fallout of conceding that Plagueis > Vitiate, to which your tactic has been to label it an "opinion" of yours that he isn't.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
@Sasukedc: It's really just my opinion versus your own at this stage. You haven't presented legitimate facts to support a lack of distinction.

I believe I have. Your argument against the back cover of the Plagueis novel was that the author may not have had a say in what was written. The author of the fact files also may not have anything to do with the publishing company's twitter page, but you claim that it should be taken seriously. Essentially, it's a textbook double standard; there's no question about that, which is all I've said about that matter thus far.

So in response, your argument (the positive claim in this discussion) is that the case is different because it's a clarification rather than an addition. You have yet to support what the difference is, other than the convenience to you personally. I don't have to prove a lack of distinction because that's a negative claim, learn to deb8 m8.



rap should an hero imo

I'm pretty sure DeAgostini is both the publisher and writer of the Fact Files (as in, people within DeAgostini also write the Fact Files).

So, no.

supa ant has also yet to respond to the fact that the Twitter page made a wrong declaration about SW canon policy, .ie, it's possible that the handler just decided to answer based on his/her own incorrect information rather than consulting the author or some other authority.

That seems to be pretty likely, because what would the point of delegating a Twitter account be if you had to answer every question yourself anyway?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I'm pretty sure DeAgostini is both the publisher and writer of the Fact Files (as in, people within DeAgostini also write the Fact Files).

So, no.

Oh, so what you're saying is that it doesn't matter whether or not the author himself made the claim? Alright, that's fine.

In that case, Del Rey, the publisher of Darth Plagueis, also had a contract with Lucas Licensing; their work is official. Why do they have less authority than the publishers of the fact files?

Again:



I don't have to prove that there is no distinction because that's a negative claim. Nothing I've argued so far has any basis in opinion. What I'm asking is that you clarify a legitimate distinction.

Aren't the publishers also the writers for the Fact Files?

If you can prove that the people who replied to you (or whoever that was who asked) are the same people who were credited with writing the fact files, then the claim will indeed be 100% consistent.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
If you can prove...
Watch and learn.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I stated that I found a massive difference between the publisher clarifying content and creating content.

Whatever response to that claim you might have had got lost in a fifteen-thousand character long rambling session. Goodness, what a feeble handwave of points you're evidently incapable of addressing.

Seeing as this debate has merely gone round in circles in my absence, I'll leave them here for those able to comprehend 250+ words of text. Originally posted by Beniboybling
Dude you realise that the publishers didn't "make" the quote, all they did was publish it.

Publishers =/= authors, and only Lucas Liscening has the authority to vet material, and determine the facts of continuity. What this guy thinks is irrelevant, as it is wrong, and his opinions could of in no way informed the wording of the text.