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1. Force
2. All-out, 20 meters starting distance

I think Plagueis wins 2, not sure about 1.

Peak Plagueis might actually be more powerful than Novel Vitiate, but not Valkorion. He loses round 1, but has a decent shot at taking the Emperor down in round 2.

Valkorion in both rounds.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Peak Plagueis might actually be more powerful than Novel Vitiate, but not Valkorion. He loses round 1, but has a decent shot at taking the Emperor down in round 2.

In raw Force power, I oscillate between putting Valkorion on Plagueis or near Yoda's level.

You act like those aren't the same thing.

Well, Sidious is around Plagueis's level, and then he grows more powerful upon killing him, and then presumably grows stronger in the 13 years between TPM and RotS.

Yoda performed well against ROTS Sidious though so I suppose Plagueis must be below yoda

Valkorian in both.

Valkorion ragdolls.

Plagueis > Vitiate by your own concession, so you'd have to have a pretty massive gap between Valkorion and Vitiate for that to work.

Valk

Yoda being at valkorion levels is hysterical. Valkorion wins both battles but i don't think he ragdolls.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Well, Sidious is around Plagueis's level, and then he grows more powerful upon killing him, and then presumably grows stronger in the 13 years between TPM and RotS.
Provide evidence of this growth in power.

Palpatine felt that Darth Plagueis could defeat any Jedi.

While he accepted that he and Plagueis were more than equal to the most powerful of the Jedi Order, he understood that they were no match for their combined strength—the Sith imperative notwithstanding.

Taken from Star Wars: Darth Plagueis

And there's the quote I'd been looking for.

what an absolutely useless quote

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Provide evidence of this growth in power.

Palpatine felt that Darth Plagueis could defeat any Jedi.

While he accepted that he and Plagueis were more than equal to the most powerful of the Jedi Order, he understood that they were no match for their combined strength—the Sith imperative notwithstanding.

Taken from Star Wars: Darth Plagueis http://r35.imgfast.net/users/3513/11/32/39/smiles/841309534.gif

LeGend posts some decent wank for once.

Been looking for that quote myself. Thanks Leg.

Damn, that's awesome.

Once the Outlander surpasses Valkorion and affirms him/herself as a Jedi, the Sheev > Yoda > Valkorion chain will be complete.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Valkorion in both rounds.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Provide evidence of this growth in power.

Palpatine felt that Darth Plagueis could defeat any Jedi.

While he accepted that he and Plagueis were more than equal to the most powerful of the Jedi Order, he understood that they were no match for their combined strength—the Sith imperative notwithstanding.

Taken from Star Wars: Darth Plagueis

Doesn't matter if he did(although logically he would), he's still canonically better, and Yoda was his near-equal.
Also, Palpatine could believe what he wants, he clearly isn't being the most objective.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Once the Outlander surpasses Valkorion and affirms him/herself as a Jedi, the Sheev > Yoda > Valkorion chain will be complete.

More like Outlander>Valkorion>Sheev>Yoda. $50 says the outlander doesn't defeat Valkorion cleanly. It will be some PIS.

Originally posted by MythLord
Also, Palpatine could believe what he wants, he clearly isn't being the most objective.
"What about the apprentice? What happens to him?"

"Oh, him. He goes on to become the greatest Dark Lord the Sith have ever known..."

Yeah, Palpatine thinks of himself in... high regard.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Once the Outlander surpasses Valkorion and affirms him/herself as a Jedi, the Sheev > Yoda > Valkorion chain will be complete.
You didn't get my point.

If Darth Plagueis > Yoda and touted as the most powerful Sith ever in the back-cover of the novel then Darth Plagueis > Palpatine as well.

Therefore;

Darth Plagueis > Palpatine > Yoda

The back of the novel might've only been referring to Plagueis up to his time. Which includes Valkoriate, but not Palpatine who improved/surpassed his master later.

Originally posted by MythLord
The back of the novel might've only been referring to Plagueis up to his time. Which includes Valkoriate, but not Palpatine who improved/surpassed his master later.
The statement contains the word "ever," not "history" or "up to his time." Palpatine was just as strong as he was during Episode III during the last days of Darth Plagueis. He is covered.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
The statement contains the word "ever," not "history" or "up to his time." Palpatine was just as strong as he was during Episode III during the last days of Darth Plagueis. He is covered.

lmfao

I'm concerned. I think Legend has a brain tumour.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
The statement contains the word "ever," not "history" or "up to his time." Palpatine was just as strong as he was during Episode III during the last days of Darth Plagueis. He is covered.
Ever being a vague term. It could just mean ever as of that time... Also Palpatine did grow in power seeing as how other statements directly put him over Plagueis.

Keep reaching, LeG.

Lol Legend's true agenda is revealed.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
The statement contains the word "ever," not "history" or "up to his time." Palpatine was just as strong as he was during Episode III during the last days of Darth Plagueis. He is covered.

This reminds me of the "They are called impersonators, not imposters."

Anyway to put this to be before it gets out of hand:

Is no one going to bring up the fact the Blurb is clearly up to Pre-TPM only, as it is still questioning what Plagueis' fate is? mmm

Good point.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
"What about the apprentice? What happens to him?"

"Oh, him. He goes on to become the greatest Dark Lord the Sith have ever known..."

Yeah, Palpatine thinks of himself in... high regard.

it's true tho

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
The statement contains the word "ever," not "history" or "up to his time." Palpatine was just as strong as he was during Episode III during the last days of Darth Plagueis. He is covered.

No, he was using the past perfect tense. Plagueis was the most powerful sith who had ever lived.

Sidious > Plagueis > Vitiate/all previous sith.

I do enjoy people reaching in regards to questionable in universe quotes

Sidious kills your precious Valkorion, deal with it.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Anyway to put this to be before it gets out of hand:

Is this supposed to prove that Sidious > Plagueis? Because it's clearly not taking into account Plagueis since it says there were only two Sith - Sidious and Maul. So clearly taking him as being dead already.

Originally posted by Trocity
Sidious kills your precious Valkorion, deal with it.

My precious Valkorion kills your hero, deal with it

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
More like Outlander>Valkorion>Sheev>Yoda. $50 says the outlander doesn't defeat Valkorion cleanly. It will be some PIS.

https://weeklyworldnews.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/tinfoilhats_2012d.jpg

Originally posted by The Ellimist
No, he was using the past perfect tense. Plagueis was the most powerful sith who had ever lived.

Sidious > Plagueis > Vitiate/all previous sith.
Doesn't matters; Palpatine co-existed with him and is logically covered. Your interpretation doesn't matters to me.

Originally posted by Trocity
Sidious Darth Plagueis kills your precious Valkorion Palpatine, deal with it.

Fixed.

And if you had read the novel, you'd note Sidious experiencing a growth in power after he killed Plagueis. Plagueis might've been Sidious at that point, but once Sidious killed Plagueis, he surpassed him as well. Also, what Luceno "thinks" isn't canon - where multiple sourcebooks have stated that Palpatine killed Plagueis only after obtaining the skill and knowledge to do so.

That he chose a safe and insured avenue doesn't preclude the possibility of him (at that point) being able to beat Plagueis in a legitimate fight - something that would probably go either way, in my opinion. Regardless, after the event, Sidious grew more powerful and only continued to grow in power in the decades to come. Future iterations of Sidious would absolutely defeat Plagueis.

How does LeG even have the brain capacity to spell properly, I wonder.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Doesn't matters; Palpatine co-existed with him and is logically covered. Your interpretation doesn't matters to me.

lol, but peak Palpatine did not. No contradiction, sorry. Palpatine > Plagueis > Vitiate.

Originally posted by SunRazer
And if you had read the novel, you'd note Sidious experiencing a growth in power after he killed Plagueis. Plagueis might've been Sidious at that point, but once Sidious killed Plagueis, he surpassed him as well. Also, what Luceno "thinks" isn't canon - where multiple sourcebooks have stated that Palpatine killed Plagueis only after obtaining the skill and knowledge to do so.

That he chose a safe and insured avenue doesn't preclude the possibility of him (at that point) being able to beat Plagueis in a legitimate fight - something that would probably go either way, in my opinion. Regardless, after the event, Sidious grew more powerful and only continued to grow in power in the decades to come. Future iterations of Sidious would absolutely defeat Plagueis.
I wanted to make a point: critical thinking.

I got you to do some critical thinking as an example.

Unfortunately, The_Ellimist is bereft of critical thinking.

Originally posted by MythLord
How does LeG even have the brain capacity to spell properly, I wonder.

Lmao, just vaguely responding to someone's argument, and sniping at someone else's, by saying "you lack critical thinking" isn't an actual rebuttal.

The Plagueis quote means Plagueis at some point in time was more powerful than any Sith who had lived up to his time. Sidious had lived to his time; but he hadn't reached his peak yet. This isn't even critical thinking - don't run before you can walk - this is just an understanding of the past perfect tense, kek.

Neither is trolling, silly one liners, and taking any quote to mean what you think it means (when it often doesn't). But hypocrisy is cool too

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Lmao, just vaguely responding to someone's argument, and sniping at someone else's, by saying "you lack critical thinking" isn't an actual rebuttal.

The Plagueis quote means Plagueis at some point in time was more powerful than any Sith who had lived up to his time. Sidious had lived to his time; but he hadn't reached his peak yet. This isn't even critical thinking - don't run before you can walk - this is just an understanding of the past perfect tense, kek.
You continue to reinforce my assessment about you; you are bereft of critical thinking.

Now, instead of questioning my assessment and making excuses, try to figure out what you are overlooking or missing in your assessment.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
try to figure out what you are missing.

roflmao, it's not my job to find your arguments for you.

Try harder please.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kY8shnRKZZ8

Originally posted by The Ellimist
roflmao, it's not my job to find your arguments for you.

Try harder please.
Indeed.

Critical thinking is not your cup of tea, my friend.

The answer is crystal-clear to those who understand or do not have memory problems. You might recall it as well, if you were paying attention.

> still thinks Plagueis > pre-prime Palpatine contradicts RotS Sidious > Plagueis
> thinks the past perfect tense applies to future events

You're the gift that keeps on giving tbh.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
> still thinks Plagueis > pre-prime Palpatine contradicts RotS Sidious > Plagueis
> thinks the past perfect tense applies to future events

You're the gift that keeps on giving tbh.
Your assumptions and interpretations are misguided. Try harder.

Up

Valkorion still wins,Novel and SWTOR Vitiate is > Plagueis, so Valkorion certainly is as well.

Valkorion every time, though all in decent fights.

Plagueis isn't going to be stupid dnough to resort to lightsaber combat, and in a Force contest Valkorion's feats simply outshine him.

Plagueis. He simply outshines Valkorian when it comes to feats.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Plagueis. He simply outshines Valkorian when it comes to feats. Based on what, exactly? The ritual BS that I've already proven you're incorrect about? Denial isn't befitting of you my friend.

When Plageuis died his force energies shook Coruscant to their core and even the stars themselves. Before his prime just by existing, he froze Naboo. Add the accolade that calls him the strongest DLOTS ever then Plagueis>>>

Originally posted by darthbane77
Based on what, exactly? The ritual

Yes.

Either way?
Also lmfao @NoVitiate > Plagueis.

Plagueis wins both rounds.

SWTOR Vitiate is enough - Valkorion wins with difficulty.

Originally posted by The Merchant
When Plageuis died his force energies shook Coruscant to their core and even the stars themselves. Before his prime just by existing, he froze Naboo. Add the accolade that calls him the strongest DLOTS ever then Plagueis>>>
That is all hyperbole.

Valk is slayer of gods

Originally posted by slayne
Valkorion every time, though all in decent fights.

Originally posted by darthbane77
Based on what, exactly? The ritual BS that I've already proven incorrect?

This ought to be good.

The stronger Plagueis wins yeah.

Plagueis unquestionably wins the saber contest , but the Force fight probably goes to Valk.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Yes.

Which he needed Sidious and months of intense training to even accomplish.

Vitiate was capable of performing the Dark Ritual, which would have completey wiped out all life in the galaxy, even turning the billions of stars to husks, eith only a few million deaths as aid.

That shits all over manipulating the balance of the Force.

That isn't even the much more powerful Valkorion, either.

Of which we've no reason to believe would have been substantiated by Vitiate's sheer power or will, suffusing the entire galaxy with the dark side through said means is far more impressive, yeah.

He's literally stated to have invested his power into the Dark Ritual, and that's why he was weak enough to kill on Dromund Kaas.

So no, Vitiate's feat is of an entirely greater magnitude, and he didn't need one of the most powerful Sith ever to assist him either.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Which he needed Sidious and months of intense training to even accomplish.

Vitiate was capable of performing the Dark Ritual, which would have completey wiped out all life in the galaxy, even turning the billions of stars to husks, eith only a few million deaths as aid.

That shits all over manipulating the balance of the Force.

That isn't even the much more powerful Valkorion, either.

Plagueis is more powerful then Sidious a decade prior to TPM meaning he would be contributing at least 1/2 of the power needed to accomplish the feat of unbalancing the Force on a galactic scale. Do you disagree?

If you don't disagree with the above then here's why it's more impressive then Vitiate's feat. Sidious and Plagueis unbalanced the Force on a galactic scale. They did so to the point that not only the Jedi could feel it but all innately powerful Force sensitives. They did this to a Galaxy where the alignment was leaning leaning torwards the Light or at the very least, was in balance. According to the TFU campaign guide and Force and Nexuses, a planets force alignment is based off of the passive Force energy generated by their population. Assuming the SW Galaxy is as large as our own it contains hundreds of billions of planets. Sidious and Plagueis would have needed to match the energy output of millions of planets over those months to had the impact they did. Even dividing their energy output to what they could summon at a moments notice they'd still be capable of matching the energy output of dozens of planets.

Vitiate's ritual would not have been powered by solely his own Force energies, like Sidious and Plagueis's, but rather the accumulated Darkside energy caused by a Galactic spanning war.

Valkorian is honestly probably weaker then Vitiate given Nathema Vitiate is Vitiate's baseline power + the energy of Nathema + thousands of Sith Lords while Valkorian is the energy of Ziost + the remaining power he had in his weakened state ( not enought to prevent getting ragdolled by the HoT ).

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Plagueis is more powerful then Sidious a decade prior to TPM meaning he would be contributing at least 1/2 of the power needed to accomplish the feat of unbalancing the Force on a galactic scale. Do you disagree? .
For events that involve deep meditation over months, I imagine Sidious' raw power is going to impact more than Plagueis' active power, since that sort of stuff generally involves diving into reserves and hidden power.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
For events that involve deep meditation over months, I imagine Sidious' raw power is going to impact more than Plagueis' active power, since that sort of stuff generally involves diving into reserves and hidden power.

Fair point.

On another note, it's worth mentioning only Sidious, Plagueis, and Vitiate have really evolved beyond the limits of midichlorians among the main characters.

Plagueis has done this via midichlorian manipulation, but frankly, Vitiate and Sidious' draining of millions and billions respectively is going to yield greater results.

Again, Vitiate absorbed the power of eight-thousand of the "most powerful" Sith Lords of the era, along with the rest of the life and Force energy of the planet. While the argument that this was primarily aimed to fuel his immortality is true, effectively becoming a god was just as important, and while there's no precedent to really set on how much energy is needed to achieve such, I think we can all agree that a majority of the energy should still be there in Vitiate's reserves. Add on leeching off Revan's power for three-centuries and wiping clean the powerful nexus of Ziost, and we certainly have a character that is logically considerably more powerful than Plagueis. Of course noting Vitiate was already a prodigy of almost unprecedented proportions even before beginning all his draining, too.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Assuming the SW Galaxy is as large as our own it contains hundreds of billions of planets.
I think the SW Galaxy is bigger.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Pretty sure the SW Galaxy is bigger.
Really? Seems a lot smaller.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Really? Seems a lot smaller.

Well I'm getting conflicting data with our galaxy, so it might be bigger or the same.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I think we can all agree that a majority of the energy should still be there in Vitiate's reserves.

Why would we do that? If Vitiatestill had that sort of power available to him after being weakened he would have lost to pre KotFE HoT.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Add on leeching off Revan's power for three-centuries and wiping clean the powerful nexus of Ziost, and we certainly have a character that is logically considerably more powerful than Plagueis.

Unfortunately I'd have to disagree with that stance due to the reasons I listed in my previous post.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Why would we do that? If Vitiatestill had that sort of power available to him after being weakened he would have lost to pre KotFE HoT.

As powerful as planetary reserves + thousands of Sith would be, the amount of energy needed to initiate a galactic ritual would likely take a vast majority of it, if not actually more than what Vitiate has to offer.

Granted, that's just my speculation, but I imagine you'd agree.



The Plagueis feat isn't quantifiable for a versus engagement. Think of it this way:

In a fight, a character has, like, 0.5 seconds to unleash a Force attack.

If they channel their energy for a full second, wouldn't that mean they're unleashing twice the power?

Consider multiple months in deep meditation with your entire will focused on something.

Then add the most powerful Sith Lord in history next to you doing the same thing.

That's like 9999999999x times the power you're ever going to see them actually use.

Plagueis' feat is insane by all accounts, but it's just not usable unless you want to completely eyeball it.

1. Considering Vitiate was going to be using the accumulative Darkside energy of a galactic spanning war that lasted decades to help power it, I can't say I agree. But even if that were the case, what would that have to do with the energy he was left with in his weakened state?

2. It is though. We know either he or Sidious had to provide at least 1/2 of the energy which powered the feat ( it's a basic mathematical concept, if 2 values are added together to create a whole then 1 of those values needs to equal at least 1/2 of the total of the whole ), personally I believe that to be Plagueis, though you made a good point about Sidious possibly providing more power to the feat.

With the above we just need to know the energy required to carry out the feat itself which we'd then divide by 2 and the correlating fraction of the amount of time it took to accomplish the feat. Since it took several months to accomplish we'd divide the energy output of the feat by the number of seconds in that time span if we wanted to see how much energy Sidious and Plagueis could summon cumulatively in a single second.

Thanks to the TFU campaign guide and Force and Nexuses we know that the energy output is equivalent to the passive energy output of many many worlds Force attuned populations.

TL;DR: However many populated, force attuned worlds would have needed to have shifted their Force alignments to bring about the imbalance to the degree Sidious and Plagueis carried out divided by 2 divided again by 259,200 ( seconds in a month ) shows us the energy output that Plagueis and Sidious have. Obviously the second number would be even large since it was several months. I just don't the exact amount of time it took.

Where are you getting this BS about all the accumulative dark side energy gathered over the war? Hall Hood confirmed he only needed one major act of simultaneous deaths, a few million, for him to be successful.

It was literally just more fuel for his own energy reserves, which given its galactic scale, is perfectly understandable.

However, when you then add Ziost to his reserves and you suddenly cross that boost off of the list.

So Valkorion is arguably capable of doing the ritual all by himself. But as has been explained, he no longer desired galactic annihilation. His fear of death was gone, and the Eternal Empire surviving on its own changed his outlook.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Of which we've no reason to believe would have been substantiated by Vitiate's sheer power or will, suffusing the entire galaxy with the dark side through said means is far more impressive, yeah.

Per the SWTOR codex, it took Vitiate a millennium of prep to even attempt such a ritual. The most resonant conclusion of Ant's recent analysis is that however prodigious Valkoriate may be, Plagueis and Sidious each outclass him in terms of raw talent.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
I think the SW Galaxy is bigger.

It's about the same size as the Milky Way. ~400 billion stars + 100k lightyears diameter.

Originally posted by AncientPower
He's literally stated to have invested his power into the Dark Ritual, and that's why he was weak enough to kill on Dromund Kaas.

So no, Vitiate's feat is of an entirely greater magnitude, and he didn't need one of the most powerful Sith ever to assist him either. Uhuh, the fact that the ritual demanded power from the wielder does not mean it was substantiated entirely or even mostly by him, obviously. Nice try tho.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
For events that involve deep meditation over months, I imagine Sidious' raw power is going to impact more than Plagueis' active power, since that sort of stuff generally involves diving into reserves and hidden power. Palpatine's raw power is only near equal to Plagueis though.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
On another note, it's worth mentioning only Sidious, Plagueis, and Vitiate have really evolved beyond the limits of midichlorians among the main characters.

Plagueis has done this via midichlorian manipulation, but frankly, Vitiate and Sidious' draining of millions and billions respectively is going to yield greater results.

Again, Vitiate absorbed the power of eight-thousand of the "most powerful" Sith Lords of the era, along with the rest of the life and Force energy of the planet. While the argument that this was primarily aimed to fuel his immortality is true, effectively becoming a god was just as important, and while there's no precedent to really set on how much energy is needed to achieve such, I think we can all agree that a majority of the energy should still be there in Vitiate's reserves. Add on leeching off Revan's power for three-centuries and wiping clean the powerful nexus of Ziost, and we certainly have a character that is logically considerably more powerful than Plagueis. Of course noting Vitiate was already a prodigy of almost unprecedented proportions even before beginning all his draining, too. There is no logic to that at all lmao, as we have no idea what that kind of power looks like. Moreover to claim that Vitiate appropriated the power of 8,000 Sith is misleading, in actuality he merely consumed their life force - which are entirely different things.

Regardless you're wrong, given the extremely taxing nature of Force drain on the individual, it's likely much of that energy was expended in consuming the planet.

'Millennium' man the bull is strong with this one.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
TL;DR: However many populated, force attuned worlds would have needed to have shifted their Force alignments to bring about the imbalance to the degree Sidious and Plagueis carried out divided by 2 divided again by 259,200 ( seconds in a month ) shows us the energy output that Plagueis and Sidious have. Obviously the second number would be even large since it was several months. I just don't the exact amount of time it took. This is also wrong lol, Plagueis shifted the balance the cosmic Force not the living Force. The alignment of living entities in the galaxy remained the same.

Honesty isn't AP's thing, but if other, interested parties should be interested:

https://preview.ibb.co/m6jXJ5/millennium.png

AP is true cancer, she keeps coming back worse and worse until you had enough and just let it do it's thing.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Uhuh, the fact that the ritual demanded power from the wielder does not mean it was substantiated entirely or even mostly by him, obviously. Nice try tho.

Lmfao there are literally just two sources of power here, and given Vitiate goes on to absorb Ziost's flora and fauna, one of them's irrelevant when talking about Valkorion.

Valkorion can reduce the galaxy to a lifeless, colorless void without temperature amd kill the Force in the process.

GG, no re.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Honesty isn't AP's thing, but if other, interested parties should be interested:

https://preview.ibb.co/m6jXJ5/millennium.png

So igniting a galactic war between the Empire and Republic with the end goal of causing massive death via the war to fuel his ritual. . . equates to literally preparing his ritual for a thousand years?

Your desperation is absolutely delightful.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Lmfao there are literally just two sources of power here, and given Vitiate goes on to absorb Ziost's flora and fauna, one of them's irrelevant when talking about Valkorion.

If the billions of simultaneous deaths were "irrelevant" in performing the ritual. He would not have needed billions of simultaneous deaths to perform the ritual. And Ziost does nothing to alter that I'm afraid.

Originally posted by Beniboybling


If the billions of simultaneous deaths were "irrelevant" in performing the ritual. He would not have needed billions of simultaneous deaths to perform the ritual. Are you really this stupid?

You might want to ask yourself that question given you clearly can't comprehend basic logic.

Vitiate required millions of deaths at once as fuel for his ritual. Vitiate massively empowered himself, permanently, by devastating Ziost. Ergo, Valkorion who is far more powerful is going to need far less aid than he would have before Ziost.

Which part of this is difficult for you to grasp, exactly?

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
AP is true cancer, she keeps coming back worse and worse until you had enough and just let it do it's thing.

It's certainly interesting to check in every now and then and see how much further she's deteriorated.

I'm surprised she hasn't mentioned the cinematic filter yet.

Originally posted by AncientPower
You might want to ask yourself that question given you clearly can't comprehend basic logic.

Vitiate required millions of deaths at once as fuel for his ritual. Vitiate massively empowered himself, permanently, by devastating Ziost. Ergo, Valkorion who is far more powerful is going to need far less aid than he would have before Ziost.

Which part of this is difficult for you to grasp, exactly? I'm not seeing any evidence he was using it as fuel sorry.

Instead as I've previously described, given that the life force of billions of people does not in reality net galaxy busting powers, and given that there would be no reason for these deaths to be simultaneous if he were only draining them, it should be obvious that the purpose was instead to trigger a disturbance in the Force he could harness.

So yeah, Ziost is irrelevant. And suggesting that Valk could gobble up the galaxy whenever he wanted is kekworthy nonsense.

Originally posted by The_Tempest



It's about the same size as the Milky Way. ~400 billion stars + 100k lightyears diameter.

That's where I'm getting conflicting info, I'm seeing also 100 billion stars when I look it up, as well as the 400.

So I guess it's more to say the MWG has anywhere from 100-400 billion stars, the SWG has exactly 400 billion stars.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
If you don't disagree with the above then here's why it's more impressive then Vitiate's feat. Sidious and Plagueis unbalanced the Force on a galactic scale. They did so to the point that not only the Jedi could feel it but all innately powerful Force sensitives. They did this to a Galaxy where the alignment was leaning leaning torwards the Light or at the very least, was in balance. According to the TFU campaign guide and Force and Nexuses, a planets force alignment is based off of the passive Force energy generated by their population. Assuming the SW Galaxy is as large as our own it contains hundreds of billions of planets. Sidious and Plagueis would have needed to match the energy output of millions of planets over those months to had the impact they did. Even dividing their energy output to what they could summon at a moments notice they'd still be capable of matching the energy output of dozens of planets.
1. Balance of the Force had been shifting before that ritual due to a number of developments in the past including corruption becoming widespread. Jedi are guardians of peace and could do little to address this menace.

2. Darth(s) Plagueis and Palpatine faced no tug-of-war or resistance during their act of tilting the balance of the Force further.

3. Individuals do not shift the balance of the Force with applications of raw power; their deeds influence it (automatically).

I see so much bullshit in regards to mechanics of balance of the Force these days. This is not a physical exercise.

Vitiate's rituals represent the acts of using the Force to manipulate physical environments much like Force powers. Apples and oranges comparison.

Just a mental exercise I think.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Where are you getting this BS about all the accumulative dark side energy gathered over the war? Hall Hood confirmed he only needed one major act of simultaneous deaths, a few million, for him to be successful.

It was literally just more fuel for his own energy reserves, which given its galactic scale, is perfectly understandable.

However, when you then add Ziost to his reserves and you suddenly cross that boost off of the list.

So Valkorion is arguably capable of doing the ritual all by himself. But as has been explained, he no longer desired galactic annihilation. His fear of death was gone, and the Eternal Empire surviving on its own changed his outlook.

Could you get me the quote where it says Vitiate only needed a few million deaths to activate the ritual?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
The alignment of living entities in the galaxy remained the same.

Of course. I'm saying to have shifted the alignment of the Galaxy ( or the universe ) they would have needed to match or exceed the energy output of the combined populations necessary for that shift. Not necessarily that the alignment of the living individuals was changed. Though, Sidious does suggests something similar to this during the Empire era with the GE producing hatred, anger and xenophobia throughout its population and increasing the power of the Darkside throughout the Galaxy and the Darkside further fueling those emotions.

Let's be honest. Though the Plagueis/Sidious ritual is probably the most cosmically epic Force feat in all of Legends, it is also hilariously stupid from a writing and thematic perspective. The Emperor upsetting the balance of the Force was far better written when it was the result of him being a powerful Force user using his powers and his cunning to sow discord among the galaxy, not by him literally taking the Force to the mat and it tapping out.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
1. Balance of the Force had been shifting before that ritual due to a number of developments in the past including corruption becoming widespread. Jedi are guardians of peace and could do little to address this menace.

2. Darth(s) Plagueis and Palpatine faced no tug-of-war or resistance during their act of tilting the balance of the Force further.

3. Individuals do not shift the balance of the Force with applications of raw power; their deeds influence it (automatically).

I see so much bullshit in regards to mechanics of balance of the Force these days. This is not a physical exercise.

1. Then according to the sources I mentioned, the o=cumulative population was leaning more towards the Darkside at that point in time.

2. Never claimed they did.

3. Considering the Plagueis novel states Sidious and Plagueis did exactly that, you're wrong.

The energy needed to accomplish the feat is measurable per canonical sources and basic mathematical principles. I don't see what the problem is.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Let's be honest. Though the Plagueis/Sidious ritual is probably the most cosmically epic Force feat in all of Legends, it is also hilariously stupid from a writing and thematic perspective. The Emperor upsetting the balance of the Force was far better written when it was the result of him being a powerful Force user using his powers and his cunning to sow discord among the galaxy, not by him literally taking the Force to the mat and it tapping out.

Eh, I kinda agree but kinda don't. I agree that it shouldn't have been some random ritual that came out of nowhere, but I like the idea of Palpatine "poisoning" the Force with his power.

To draw a parallel with another fictional character, I'd compare it to what the Father from Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood was doing (dunno if you've seen the show).

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
1. Then according to the sources I mentioned, the o=cumulative population was leaning more towards the Darkside at that point in time.

2. Never claimed they did.

3. Considering the Plagueis novel states Sidious and Plagueis did exactly that, you're wrong.

The energy needed to accomplish the feat is measurable per canonical sources and basic mathematical principles. I don't see what the problem is.
facepalm

They communed with the Force for months non-stop in order to unbalance it further; this makes sense because deeds (automatically) influence the balance non-stop. Circumstances of the time facilitated this shift due to corruption being rampant and Jedi being unaware of presence of Sith and therefore resistance was unlikely.

They did not use the Force to affect its balance. Your assumption is an oxymoron.

Conversely, the Jedi were scratching their heads, thinking what the hell is going on. They are essentially guardians of peace; not enforcers of moral values. They were also unaware of presence of Sith or they would have acted.

Originally posted by Azronger
Eh, I kinda agree but kinda don't. I agree that it shouldn't have been some random ritual that came out of nowhere, but I like the idea of Palpatine "poisoning" the Force with his power.

You mean Plagueis. I'm sure Palpatine tried to help but he probably was the equivalent of an intern going for coffee.

Originally posted by Azronger

To draw a parallel with another fictional character, I'd compare it to what the Father from Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood was doing (dunno if you've seen the show).

Exactly. But what place does something like that have in Star Wars? Well, I could say the same about galaxy-wide nom noms, but still.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Exactly. But what place does something like that have in Star Wars? Well, I could say the same about galaxy-wide nom noms, but still.

Define "Star Wars". Do you mean the TFU/TOR or TCW/the movies, or somewhere in between?

Originally posted by Azronger
Eh, I kinda agree but kinda don't. I agree that it shouldn't have been some random ritual that came out of nowhere, but I like the idea of Palpatine "poisoning" the Force with his power.

To draw a parallel with another fictional character, I'd compare it to what the Father from Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood was doing (dunno if you've seen the show).

Well that's why I was sure to mention both. Obviously it would and should be farfetched that a non-Force using mook could throw the Force out of balance, so there's an element of power that should be involved, but the way Luceno wrote it was just absolutely gratuitous.

I mean the story about sentient trashcans and magic space monks shouldn't warrant a cosmic arm wrestling match with the driving force of the universe.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I mean the story about sentient trashcans and magic space monks shouldn't warrant a cosmic arm wrestling match with the driving force of the universe.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
facepalm

They communed with the Force for months non-stop in order to unbalance it further; this makes sense because deeds (automatically) influence the balance non-stop. Circumstances of the time facilitated this shift due to corruption being rampant and Jedi being unaware of presence of Sith and therefore resistance was unlikely.

They did not use the Force to affect its balance. Your assumption is an oxymoron.

Conversely, the Jedi were scratching their heads, thinking what the hell is going on. They are essentially guardians of peace; not enforcers of moral values. They were also unaware of presence of Sith or they would have acted.

Why did you underline the word "communed?" Are you suggesting they asked the Force politely to unbalance itself?

How?

What are you even talking about? What does the Jedi knowing about the Sith have to do with the feat?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I mean the story about sentient trashcans and magic space monks shouldn't warrant a cosmic arm wrestling match with the driving force of the universe.

If you're putting it like that, then I guess you have a point. But looking at the bigger picture, I don't see the issue of having a single high tier being in an otherwise (relatively) low tier setting.

Going back to the comparison with Father, he could, with the snap of his fingers, remove the alchemy of every single alchemist in the country, basically the entire setting in which the story takes place - and also one-shot and stomp the entire main cast which included the most powerful alchemists in the lore. That's absurdly OP for the average power level of the show, which is generally around building level. But it never seemed out of place, mainly because it was presented well and made sense within the contexts and logic of the show, even if way out of proportion, power-wise.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
On another note, it's worth mentioning only Sidious, Plagueis, and Vitiate have really evolved beyond the limits of midichlorians among the main characters.

Nox?

midichlorians only exist in the pt era tbh

Originally posted by Nephthys
Nox?
Fair, but going from fodder to Maul level isn't that noteworthy, tbh.

There is a difference between Fodder and Maul??

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I'm not seeing any evidence he was using it as fuel sorry.

Instead as I've previously described, given that the life force of billions of people does not in reality net galaxy busting powers, and given that there would be no reason for these deaths to be simultaneous if he were only draining them, it should be obvious that the purpose was instead to trigger a disturbance in the Force he could harness.

So yeah, Ziost is irrelevant. And suggesting that Valk could gobble up the galaxy whenever he wanted is kekworthy nonsense.



It was clearly fuel for the ritual dear, sorry to burst your bubble.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Could you get me the quote where it says Vitiate only needed a few million deaths to activate the ritual?

As you can see above, he was working multiple fuel angles at once, the actual destruction he would have caused on Corellia was at most a few million, given it would have just been a few skyscrapers getting dusted.

But Correlia wasn't the only thing needed to fuel the ritual as stated by Hall himself...

He literally states he was only working multiple fuel angles at once. It was just assurance on his part, that can't be clearer.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say tbh. You claimed he only needed Correlia to achieve the ritual yet you're quoting Hall saying he needed multiple fuel sources...

Are you this dense? He said the ritual wasn't that complex and that he was simply working multiple angles. Meaning he was simply going for multiple sources at once instead of relying on one. If you play the actual Act III you'd know that after foiling all the other attempts, Tol Braga was capable of completing the ritual by himself by firing on Corellian skyscrapers.

Before he can complete it. As Hall states in answer to one of your questions the ritual is also being fueled by "the Eternal Fleet scouring Wild Space."

1.I didn't ask him anything, this is from a Twitter exchange posted on Reddit.

2.What part of 'multiple angles' are you not understanding right now? He never actually says the Eternal Fleet ever actually found something to devastate in Wild Space and none of the Zakuulians ever mention anything of the sort. As is stated, he had to stop the Eternal Fleet and change his plans because they'd all just gone to shit.

3.Yes, because he's actively pouring his own power into the Dark Ritual, yet he needed an act of devastation to complete it.

All of which is irrelevant, because Vitiate was doing this alone whereas Plagueis needed Sidious and months of uninterrupted meditation to accomplish a feat of far lesser magnitude.

Far lesser magnitude? The force is a universe-encompassing field of life energy, how could the life forms of a single galaxy possibly be of far greater magnitude? They're all literally part of it.

Originally posted by AncientPower
1.I didn't ask him anything, this is from a Twitter exchange posted on Reddit.

2.What part of 'multiple angles' are you not understanding right now? He never actually says the Eternal Fleet ever actually found something to devastate in Wild Space and none of the Zakuulians ever mention anything of the sort. As is stated, he had to stop the Eternal Fleet and change his plans because they'd all just gone to shit.

3.Yes, because he's actively pouring his own power into the Dark Ritual, yet he needed an act of devastation to complete it.

1. Cool story bro.

2. "The Eternal Fleet was scouring Wild Space to fuel the ritual."

scour: administer a strong purgative to.

3. He's pouring his power into it, having his fleet scour planets in Wild Space and destroying populations to power it. I don't have the quote but I believe there's also a source stating he's using the Darkside energy generated in the war between the Sith and the Republic to fuel the ritual.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Far lesser magnitude? The force is a universe-encompassing field of life energy, how could the life forms of a single galaxy possibly be of far greater magnitude? They're all literally part of it.

There are MASSIVE contradictions regarding just how much of the universe the Force encompasses. Nonetheless, the galaxy is explicitly stated to have been on the recieving end here, so either way, the Force was only effected locally.

Oh and yes, reducing billions of stars to black husks is probably more impressive than changing the alignment of the Force.

The galaxy being explicitly effected doesn't limit the effect solely to the Galaxy in question.

Are there? Do elaborate.

And what exactly does it mean for stars to burn black, anyhow? More cinematic filters?

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
1. Cool story bro.

2. "The Eternal Fleet was scouring Wild Space to fuel the ritual."

scour: administer a strong purgative to.

3. He's pouring his power into it, having his fleet scour planets in Wild Space and destroying populations. I don't have the quote but I believe there's also a source stating he's using the Darkside energy generated in the war between the Sith and the Republic to fuel the ritual.

Yes and in not a single moment throughout KOTFE or KOTET is a massive act of destruction ever even referenced. Given the Eternal Empire spans said space, maybe you're starting to get the picture.

All of his attempts were thwarted by the Outlander. His fleet stopped mid way through attempting and I've never even heard of such a statement before you started claiming it.

If you have an argument I'm not even remotely seeing one. Having Darth Sidious aiding you is so far above the fuel of millions of deaths that this comparison stops dead right there.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Are there? Do elaborate.

And what exactly does it mean for stars to burn black, anyhow? More cinematic filters?

The entire Vong war series contradicts it.

Both Scourge and Surik reference such devastation and the Outlander has a vision of the destruction in question with Revan's return.

Not as far as I'm aware. It's confirmed in Traitor that life indeed can't exist without the Force, the Vong included; they simply exist on a wavelength that Force users can't sense, much like there are wavelengths the human eye can't see on the electromagnetic spectrum.

Also, I didn't ask who said it. I asked what you thought Vitiate would be doing that would be making "stars burn black," as it were.

KotOR II wants to say hi.

Seriously comparing the energy field of the Force to the size of the universe isn't just an assumption but is also fundamentally flawed given the Cosmic Force is what we're referencing here, not the Living Force.

EDIT: Given the effects that seem to happen to everything else, I imagine that's it draining the color and the heat of the star.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Yes and in not a single moment throughout KOTFE or KOTET is a massive act of destruction ever even referenced. Given the Eternal Empire spans said space, maybe you're starting to get the picture.

All of his attempts were thwarted by the Outlander. His fleet stopped mid way through attempting and I've never even heard of such a statement before you started claiming it.

If you have an argument I'm not even remotely seeing one. Having Darth Sidious aiding you is so far above the fuel of millions of deaths that this comparison stops dead right there.

Not really understanding where there's a contradiction. The eternal empire expands scouring the territory within Wild Space that they conquer under the orders of their Emperor.

Considering you're the one who posted the quote of Hall saying exactly that ( the Eternal fleet scouring Wild Space )...

Except the death of millions isn't the only thing fueling the ritual as has been established.

Originally posted by AncientPower
KotOR II wants to say hi.

https://i.imgflip.com/1oy8wa.jpg

https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder548/34415548.jpg

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Not as far as I'm aware. It's confirmed in Traitor that life indeed can't exist without the Force, the Vong included; they simply exist on a wavelength that Force users can't sense, much like there are wavelengths the human eye can't see on the electromagnetic spectrum.

Also, I didn't ask who said it. I asked what you thought Vitiate would be doing that would be making "stars burn black," as it were.
I heardthe author said that the force sort of banished the vong because of the atrocities they committed tot heir home world and stripped itself from the vong

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Fair, but going from fodder to Maul level isn't that noteworthy, tbh.
Correction: going from above-average to Tulak Hord level or above.

^Ewww.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
I heardthe author said that the force sort of banished the vong because of the atrocities they committed tot heir home world and stripped itself from the vong

Actually, I believe that was also from Traitor, or one of the subsequent books. Supposedly it was the Celestials.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Correction: going from above-average to Tulak Hord level or above. I see no difference tbh.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Not really understanding where there's a contradiction. The eternal empire expands scouring the territory within Wild Space that they conquer under the orders of their Emperor.

Considering you're the one who posted the quote of Hall saying exactly that ( the Eternal fleet scouring Wild Space )...

Except the death of millions isn't the only thing fueling the ritual as has been established.

Which is nobody's fault but your own.

The Eternal Empire rules Wild Space, if the Eternal Fleet actually went ravaging worlds then we wouldn't hear Koth praising Valkorion for stability, peace and order. Not to mention that not a single other character ever mentions it either. Ergo they never actually found a planet significant enough to fuel the ritual.

You're completely incapable of common sense, aren't you?

This all comes down to a simple question: What's the greater source of aid, millions(billions if you like) of deaths as fuel or Darth Sidious to carry half of the feat?

Darth Sidious without question. Now Darth Plagueis obviously has decades of growth after this, but Vitiate grows vastly via Ziost and becomes the canonically more powerful Valkorion.

There really isn't any comparison here.