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Obi-Wan Kenobi as of Revenge of the Sith; Shaak Ti as of The Force Unleashed.

Round 1: Setting is in the Anicent Abyss on Felucia.
Round 2: Setting is Lothal.

Which Jedi Master prevails?

1) Obi-Wan in a good fight.
2) Obi-Wan in a poor fight.

Kenobiwan should take both, and his Sokan leaves him surprisingly well equipped to handle this fight.

Shaak, good fight.

Originally posted by JKBart
1) Obi-Wan in a good fight.
2) Obi-Wan in a poor fight. Originally posted by Emperordmb
Kenobiwan should take both, and his Sokan leaves him surprisingly well equipped to handle this fight. Originally posted by MythLord
Shaak, good fight. Reasons, my loves?

More powerful, about as skilled

Originally posted by |King Joker|
Reasons, my loves?

More everything tbh

1) Obi Wan in a close fight
2) Obi wan in a good fight

Originally posted by MythLord
More powerful, about as skilled Literally all you need to do is watch OCW to see how untrue this is, on both accounts, kek.

Shaak might be able to take the first.
Kenobi takes the second.

Obi wan stomps

Kenobi butchers her.

Shaak as skilled as Obi-Wan? Hilarious.

Ask the MagnaGuards.

The single one that gave Shaak pause near the trains, or the PIS-induced fight in the tunnels where Shaak killed only a fraction of them and she probably would've died if the fight kept going on?

The inconsistency of the Magnaguards across different media makes it difficult and unreliable to use them as common measuring sticks. I mean, even Ahsoka did comparably well in the TCW movie, but at that point, she'd be utterly crushed by Kenobi.

A Shaak that was trying to get back the Chancellor and was previously fighting two, then in the next frame one? Hmm, I wonder what happened...
PIS is usually a cheap excuse, especially when there's absolutely no need for Shaak to survive. TFU wasn't a thing yet, the RotS script was yet to be fully completed(and even then, Shaak's RotS death contradicts the OCW and was taken out)... in fact, the entire fight was completely unneccessary. Yet, she held them off and survived.

And TCW MagnaGuards are sorely underplayed and inconsistent(much like Grievous) given Anakin and Obi-Wan both had trouble with them even in TCW.
Now Lucas has always intended for them to be more than scrubs, given that the works he's authorised and even aided in writing/pitching ideas(i.e. the RotS novel/movie, and OCW) have presented MagnaGuards as viable threats to Jedi Knights, and even top tiers. Shaak holding a good deal of them for about a minute, then proceeding to go beserker on their arses when she got the staff is just a good showing for her, and nothing more.

Originally posted by MythLord
A Shaak that was trying to get back the Chancellor and was previously fighting two, then in the next frame one? Hmm, I wonder what happened...

Not sure what you're talking about. There's one that clashed with her for a good twenty seconds or so, and she wasn't running to get to the Chancellor or anything (Foul Moudama was carrying the Chancellor). She only won when she exploited the trains around her as walls against the Magnaguard's electrostaff.



PIS is a valid excuse in this instance. The only reason Shaak lasted was because of the unorthodoxy of the situation (ie. her taking up an electrostaff and using it as a polearm, which Magnaguards aren't programmed to fight against). The earlier stage of the fight consisted of her running away and only having to contend with the first few Magnaguards, not all at once. That's why she lasted as long as she did. When she did start entering the middle of them she was disarmed. Her ability to fight well in large crowds and her unorthodox application of the electrostaff (which is essentially the PIS I'm talking about) is commendable but not something that can be brought up here.



That doesn't hurt my case at all. In fact, the Magnaguards giving Anakin and Obi-Wan trouble only highlights the inconsistency within the same medium (TCW), because, as I said, we have Ahsoka and Nahdar and so on tearing them apart or holding their own with similar success.

We can use equally flawed ABC logic - Shaak had trouble with Galen, who, by that point, only had being outpaced by the delusional Kazdan Paratus and struggling against Kota (who was one-shotted by Boba) as his dueling showings. That Obi-Wan fared much better against Jango years from his prime speaks for something, mmm?

Originally posted by SunRazer
Not sure what you're talking about. There's one that clashed with her for a good twenty seconds or so, and she wasn't running to get to the Chancellor or anything (Foul Moudama was carrying the Chancellor). She only won when she exploited the trains around her as walls against the Magnaguard's electrostaff.

I'm referring to the fact that we see Shaak clash blades with two MagnaGuards, then when it cuts back to her only one is left. Occams Razor dictates we use the simplest explenation for an unknown, speculative topic. Hence, it's most logical she destroyed the other MagnaGuard. She's also running away from both of them, and I don't see why. She fought two of them before already and engaged them head-on(on the transport) and killed at least one, from the looks of it. So why would she attack them then and not now? She's more than likely trying to get back to the Chancellor before Grievous does.

Originally posted by SunRazer
PIS is a valid excuse in this instance. The only reason Shaak lasted was because of the unorthodoxy of the situation (ie. her taking up an electrostaff and using it as a polearm, which Magnaguards aren't programmed to fight against). The earlier stage of the fight consisted of her running away and only having to contend with the first few Magnaguards, not all at once. That's why she lasted as long as she did. When she did start entering the middle of them she was disarmed. Her ability to fight well in large crowds and her unorthodox application of the electrostaff (which is essentially the PIS I'm talking about) is commendable but not something that can be brought up here.

Yeah, that isn't plot induced stupidity. That's Shaak being smart and manuvering around the MagnaGuards/using a better weapon for offense and defense. Good tactical feat, rather than plot armor.

Originally posted by SunRazer
That doesn't hurt my case at all. In fact, the Magnaguards giving Anakin and Obi-Wan trouble only highlights the inconsistency within the same medium (TCW), because, as I said, we have Ahsoka and Nahdar and so on tearing them apart or holding their own with similar success.

Yeah, the problem is MagnaGuards are almost completely inconsistent within the context of TCW. In the EU, Grievous' elites are clearly not beings that Ahsoka can slice up. On top of that, both the sources that have Kenobi and Shaak both being pressured by MagnaGuards took story ideas and had aid in writting from Lucas himself, TCW is produced by Lucas, but I don't recall it ever being said it's written by him. Or we can go by the logic that Ahsoka and Nahdar fought lesser MagnaGuards(given their programming and training varies) and the ones Obi and Shaak fought are his elites.


Originally posted by SunRazer
We can use equally flawed ABC logic - Shaak had trouble with Galen, who, by that point, only had being outpaced by the delusional Kazdan Paratus and struggling against Kota (who was one-shotted by Boba) as his dueling showings. That Obi-Wan fared much better against Jango years from his prime speaks for something, mmm?

Well, that's if you're ignoring the following:
1. Shaak had trouble with a much more powerful Galen Marek and is actually canonically far better than either Kazdan or Kota.
2. The fact that Kazdan needed to use Force embued robots that mimic the Jedi Council to gain leverage and still lost in the end.
3. The fact that Boba didn't one-shot Kota, he knocked him down when Kota left himself exposed(like how Cade did to Talon, or Mandalore the Alek). Boba also knocked down Mace Windu, so I guess that means Obi one-shots Mace.
4. The fact that Boba, at this time, is significantly better than Jango given that a 15 year old Boba gave Mace pause whereas Jango got speedblitzed.

So yeah, my "ABC" logic doesn't exclude any factors, whereas yours seems to take out a lot of context. Also, if we're going by ABC logic, Kenobi's form is much better suited to face multiple enemies than Shaak's. So that kinda helps my case and elevates Ti even more.

Originally posted by MythLord
I'm referring to the fact that we see Shaak clash blades with two MagnaGuards, then when it cuts back to her only one is left. Occams Razor dictates we use the simplest explenation for an unknown, speculative topic. Hence, it's most logical she destroyed the other MagnaGuard. She's also running away from both of them, and I don't see why. She fought two of them before already and engaged them head-on(on the transport) and killed at least one, from the looks of it. So why would she attack them then and not now? She's more than likely trying to get back to the Chancellor before Grievous does.

You're not referring to the same part of the fight as I am.



Technically, it's PIS that the Magnaguards can't adapt to it, but even provided that I let this go, this still isn't an applicable feat here. Shaak can't make use of polearms/weapons Obi-Wan isn't familiar with or her ability to fight in large crowds in this scenario.



Nahdar fought Guards within Grievous' personal retreat - it makes absolutely no sense that they would be lesser versions. They're Grievous' private bodyguards - he'd be mindnumbingly stupid to get the weaker ones to guard his own lair when he's away. For the record, Obi-Wan has also butchered Magnaguards on his own in TCW in addition to struggling against them with Anakin's aid as you noted earlier, so as I said, they're highly inconsistent.

As for the spread of inconsistency within different media, it's hardly restricted to within TCW. Kit Fisto slaughtered a pair of Magnaguards in LoE, a similar source to RotS/OCW. Call it a form advantage all you want - it's not going to be so drastic as to let him slaughter two of them with ease when a more skilled opponent in Obi-Wan is struggling with one. It's not like Magnaguards aren't trained against Shii-Cho, either - the text makes it blindingly obvious that Kit was just so much better.



That you manage to identify the flaws in that ABC logic but not your own is surprising. How are Shaak's crowd bonus or unorthodox weapon bonus not factors that you're ignoring?

As for Obi-Wan's form, it protects him more against multiple people, but it's also much harder for him to counterattack against multiple enemies.

Originally posted by SunRazer
You're not referring to the same part of the fight as I am.

The only parts I recall is Shaak engages two of them, then only one of them(the second likely killed) then later she leaps around the battlefield and takes out one after a 20 second duel.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Technically, it's PIS that the Magnaguards can't adapt to it, but even provided that I let this go, this still isn't an applicable feat here. Shaak can't make use of polearms/weapons Obi-Wan isn't familiar with or her ability to fight in large crowds in this scenario.

Yeah I'm not arguing the part of Shaak's feat when she grabs a staff and mofos the MagnaGuards, I'm referring to the fact that she held off a group of organised Jedi Killers for more than a minute after just running around Coruscant with just her lightsaber, prior to getting disarmed.
Also, nothing indicates the MagnaGuards couldn't adapt. Several of them were cut down, but then that is only when Shaak went on the offensive(prior to that she was defending) and just because you can adapt to something doesn't mean you can still win the fight itself.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Nahdar fought Guards within Grievous' personal retreat - it makes absolutely no sense that they would be lesser versions. They're Grievous' private bodyguards - he'd be mindnumbingly stupid to get the weaker ones to guard his own lair when he's away. For the record, Obi-Wan has also butchered Magnaguards on his own in TCW in addition to struggling against them with Anakin's aid as you noted earlier, so as I said, they're highly inconsistent.

I don't recall Kenobi butchering them. I recall him needing 30 seconds to take one in Season 2. Although, there's also a theory that MagnaGuards improve over the Clone Wars... that's so far the only thing that makes sense besides TCW just being TCW and having no clue where their head and where their arse is.


Originally posted by SunRazer
As for the spread of inconsistency within different media, it's hardly restricted to within TCW. Kit Fisto slaughtered a pair of Magnaguards in LoE, a similar source to RotS/OCW. Call it a form advantage all you want - it's not going to be so drastic as to let him slaughter two of them with ease when a more skilled opponent in Obi-Wan is struggling with one. It's not like Magnaguards aren't trained against Shii-Cho, either - the text makes it blindingly obvious that Kit was just so much better.

Being fair, this is under Luceno's pen, who seems to think the MagnaGuards and Grievous have faults in programming that makes them weak to unorthodox/unpredictable attacks. Stover and Lucas seem to think of it in a different light. Besides, Fisto's pretty comparable to Obi-Wan skill-wise, and is a more aggressive fighter, hence he can take them out in similar/greater speeds. Then again, there is the fact that the MagnaGuards Kenobi fought on Utapau and the Invisible Hand were, in fact, Grievous' best of the best, rather than just his elites. So it's more than likely that Obi fought MagnaGuards superior to the ones Shaak and Fisto fought, although the feats should indicate Fisto and Ti have comparable skill, and this is Ti before her prime.

Originally posted by SunRazer
That you manage to identify the flaws in that ABC logic but not your own is surprising. How are Shaak's crowd bonus or unorthodox weapon bonus not factors that you're ignoring?

As for Obi-Wan's form, it protects him more against multiple people, but it's also much harder for him to counterattack against multiple enemies.

Crowd bonus? What crowd bonus? That wouldn't aid Shaak, that'd make it that much harder to defend against... And I'm referring to the portion of the fight before she got the staff. Hence why there's no context for me to add here. She, with her lightsaber, after just running around Coruscant, fought a large group of them, for a minute, before getting disarmed. Seems comparable to Kenobi having pause with one MagnaGuard superior to the ones Shaak fought and using the Force when he couldn't defeat three.

The Magnaguard Obi-Wan fought is either the same or weaker than those the she fought, as it's said Grievous hand picked the best to kidnap Palpatine...

Well wouldn't that then make Fisto superior to Kenobi, as well? But then again, he had those "best" on the Invisible Hand, didn't he?

Indeed, he had the best.

Which is why I'm of the opinion Kenobi's Magnaguards were the survivors that left Shaak. Or simply one on equal footing with them. Either way, the argument the Magnaguards are inconsistent is a pretty pathetic fall back, and maybe Nova's not as superior as he likes to act

Obi Wan fights with soresu, so it's not surprising that he doesn't uber-kill people as quickly.

Originally posted by MythLord
Shaak, good fight.

So let's just scrap the MagnaGuard case completely and look at the rest.

Hmm.

Yeah with or without Shaak's still shit.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Obi Wan fights with soresu, so it's not surprising that he doesn't uber-kill people as quickly.

Yo... You haven't read RotS have you?

Also retarded argument because he's a master of Ataru.

Originally posted by JKBart
So let's just scrap the MagnaGuard case completely and look at the rest.

Hmm.

Yeah with or without Shaak's still shit.

Hmm, beating someone in sabers who after a couple of months (where he's not stated to imrpove, and doesn't have any huge leaps in power) contends with Vader. Abusing someone with the force who's roughly Dooku level while dominating the mind of a Sarlacc....

Totally not on Kenobi's level, you're right

Obi-Wan stomps

Originally posted by JKBart
Obi-Wan stomps

This marriage is over

An fuggot timing

shaak ti for sure

few people remember now Sel has seen my dickpic

Kenobi. And scaling from Magnaguards is about as valid as the BS Shadow Guard scaling.

Shadow Guard scaling is not BS (if you're referring to what I think you're referring to)

Back on topic, Kenobi stomps

Shadow Guard scaling is so retarded it's honestly offensive.

Very bad faith.

Originally posted by JKBart
1) Obi-Wan in a good fight.
2) Obi-Wan in a poor fight.

Originally posted by gold slorg
few people remember now Sel has seen my dickpic

Lol What?

Originally posted by TheNuisanceBird
Lol What?

It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness, it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity, it was the season of Light, it was the season of Darkness, it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair.

It was a Coalition
Originally posted by Selenial
of Darkness

**** you sas

Originally posted by Jaggarath
Shadow Guard scaling is so retarded it's honestly offensive.

Originally posted by Jaggarath


Originally posted by Selenial
it was the winter of

paine, agony, despuir.

What's retarded about Shadow Guard scaling?

ILS only likes it cause it allows him to wank Maul lol. And Ant debunked it pretty thoroughly.

He's just stating the facts

Originally posted by DarthCaedus77
ILS only likes it cause it allows him to wank Maul lol. And Ant debunked it pretty thoroughly. What's the tl;dr?

Where did Maul fight Shadow Guards?

The scaling goes Maul > Ventress/Emperor's Hand Mara > Shadow Guard. Gotta love fact files.

I don't see how that makes Maul any more impressive.

Originally posted by Geistalt
I don't see how that makes Maul any more impressive.

A Shadow Guard fought Marek mid TFU and was stated to be "tough work". This allows Maul to scale above mid TFU Marek who has some pretty insane feats.

However it has been debunked on multiple occasions.

In sabers, sure.

He did the heavy lifting in the duel against Sidious, after all.

Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
The scaling goes Maul > Ventress/Emperor's Hand Mara > Shadow Guard. Gotta love fact files.

Wasn't referring to a SG being above Maul but using his superiority over one to scale to Marek isn't viable at all, Ant debunked it.

Originally posted by DarthCaedus77
Kenobi. And scaling from Magnaguards is about as valid as the BS Shadow Guard scaling.

Agreed, kinda. Magnaguard scaling doesn't work in general because they have different skillsets. It's like scaling from generic Jedi Knights and assuming they're all equal.

Slightly different case when comparing invisible hand Magnaguards to the ones on Coruscant, since they're the same.

I always find it entertaining though that people use Shaak's performance against them to justify placing her low, when no one insinuates Kenobi's shit for almost being killed by one on the bridge of the Invisible hand mmm

Originally posted by Selenial
Agreed, kinda. Magnaguard scaling doesn't work in general because they have different skillsets. It's like scaling from generic Jedi Knights and assuming they're all equal.

Slightly different case when comparing invisible hand Magnaguards to the ones on Coruscant, since they're the same.

I always find it entertaining though that people use Shaak's performance against them to justify placing her low, when no one insinuates Kenobi's shit for almost being killed by one on the bridge of the Invisible hand mmm

Kenobi is kind of overrated tbh. All of his victories were circumstantial.

^ Lucas even joked about that once. How Bens line in ANH - In my experience theres no such thing as luck - ends up being Ironic as hell.

Originally posted by TheIndyJedi
Kenobi is kind of overrated tbh. All of his victories were circumstantial.

I find among casual fans that don't understand how combat in Star Wars works he is.

On YouTube at least he's quite underrated.

Kenobi godstomps both rounds.

So Maul has relative power to mid game Galen and the Ti brigade still has kicked dog syndrome?

Very nice.

Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
So Maul has relative power to mid game Galen and the Ti brigade still has kicked dog syndrome?

Very nice.

I'd argue SOD Maul > End Game Galen.

Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
So Maul has relative power to mid game Galen and the Ti brigade still has kicked dog syndrome?

Very nice.

Maul stomps Ti but SG scaling is BS, Ant debunked it.

Originally posted by TheNuisanceBird
I find among casual fans that don't understand how combat in Star Wars works he is.

On YouTube at least he's quite underrated.

I would disagree, most of the council forcecast have him a tier above Anakin which is wrong IMO. Evan also thinks he is >Plagueis for whatever reason.
The only time I've seen him underrated is on Jensaarai and Antoine's Malgus vs Kenobi video.