Darth Krayt vs. Novel Vitiate

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The Ellimist
1. Force
2. All-out

Starting distance 20 meters

Selenial
Krayt in both. First round is a fight, second really isn't.

The Ellimist
Agreed.

I'd put SWTOR Vitiate on Krayt's level in the Force, but he's still lose in all-out.

Valkorion probably takes a modest majority in all-out and is = Plagueis in the Force.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Originally posted by Selenial
Krayt in both. First round is a fight, second really isn't.

Eh?

Selenial
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Eh?

Krayt edges him out in the force. Vitiate won't do anything to him before he closes the 20 meter gap, given there's no real disparity between them as force wielders. Once the gap is closed, Krayt is so far and away above Vitiate as a duelist that he won't be able to even try and make it a force contest.

Hence Krayt eviscerates him.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
In what way does Krayt edge Vitiate in the force? I'd argue dealing with Revan the way Vitiate did is beyond Krayt's capabilities, and as for accolades, Vitiate was considered the strongest sith ever right after his ritual, which would put him above the likes of Ragnos, Sadow, Hord, Muur, etc. Not even mentioning the 1000 years further to hone, study, and consolidate his power. An Imperial Guard drawing on Vitiate's power tanked a force push from Revan, Revan himself being at least loosely comparable to Krayt in the force, and his FLS instantaneously overwhelmed Revan's staunch defenses.

Not really seeing this as a stomp, like at all.

Nephthys
thumb up

Selenial
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
In what way does Krayt edge Vitiate in the force? I'd argue dealing with Revan the way Vitiate did is beyond Krayt's capabilities, and as for accolades, Vitiate was considered the strongest sith ever right after his ritual, which would put him above the likes of Ragnos, Sadow, Hord, Muur, etc. Not even mentioning the 1000 years further to hone, study, and consolidate his power. An Imperial Guard drawing on Vitiate's power tanked a force push from Revan, Revan himself being at least loosely comparable to Krayt in the force, and his FLS instantaneously overwhelmed Revan's staunch defenses.

Not really seeing this as a stomp, like at all.

You believe that Krayt could not do to Revan what Vitiate did?

Krayt throws around Maul level duelists with ease, and is described as being far stronger in Telekinesis than a Nox/Dooku tier combatant. He mentally communed with every Sith in the galaxy, and commanded every Sith Trooper alive. Simply because he's in an era where few top tier combatants exist, power scaling, his treatment of lesser Force Users, and his fight against Abeloth solidify him as stronger than Vitiate for me.

I agree and have argued in the past that Krayt vs Revan would be a decent fight, even if Krayt wins solidly. However I believe if you place Krayt in Vitiate's shoes, IE give him large amounts of prep time, place him on a massively favourable Nexus and fighting an untested and tired Revan, he'd fare as well if not better.

FreshestSlice
Krayt2stronk. He's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Revan in all things, especially TK. Everyone in Legacy is.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Originally posted by Selenial
You believe that Krayt could not do to Revan what Vitiate did?

No, not at all. Krayt's lightning isn't instantly overwhelming Revan, (it might not even overwhelm Revan at all,) and he's not TK ragdolling Revan by any means.

Originally posted by Selenial
Krayt throws around Maul level duelists with ease, and is described as being far stronger in Telekinesis than a Nox/Dooku tier combatant.

1. Good thing Revan Reborn is far beyond Cade Skywalker and Darth Nihl.

2. Nox by demonstration and implication is not even close to Revan.

Originally posted by Selenial
He mentally communed with every Sith in the galaxy, and commanded every Sith Trooper alive. Simply because he's in an era where few top tier combatants exist, power scaling, his treatment of lesser Force Users, and his fight against Abeloth solidify him as stronger than Vitiate for me.

Mentally communing with every Sith and commanding every sith trooper alive are both immensely impressive and indicative of power, to be sure, but not exactly what he'll be using in this fight.

Powerscaling probably favors Vitiate, especially if you consider the whole Malak > Exiles powerscaling. Plus the aforementioned Vitiate > Exiles/Ragnos/Sadow right after Nathema powerscaling.

I'd argue Revan's treatment of lesser force users is just as impressive, tbch. Lolkek'ing Nyriss's incredibly potent FLS and beating down of SF Malak are just as impressive as, say, beating down Wyyrlok, choking out Nihl, throwing Cade around, etc.

Originally posted by Selenial
I agree and have argued in the past that Krayt vs Revan would be a decent fight, even if Krayt wins solidly. However I believe if you place Krayt in Vitiate's shoes, IE give him large amounts of prep time, place him on a massively favourable Nexus and fighting an untested and tired Revan, he'd fare as well if not better.

In force only? I'm not sure Krayt would win solidly.

1. Vitiate in no way had large amounts of, "prep time," during his fight against Revan Reborn.

2. Massively favorable nexus? Not sure the effects of the nexus were all that "massive" at all.

3. Eh? This, "untested, tired" Revan was still raping Nyriss as soon as he woke up, and was arguably much more powerful than his previous incarnations due to recovering his mastery over the dark side as well as the light.

FreshestSlice
I like how Cade and Nihl are in the same tier. uhuh

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Well, Reborn's far, far beyond Nihl. Only far beyond Cade. smile

FreshestSlice
Kys

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
If it makes you feel any better, Odin oneshots SW, and LB Galactus kills Odin with a stray thought. smile

Selenial
Why you gotta be like that with them long ass posts.

Can't do the whole quote, analyse, destroy, thing because I'm on my phone at a train station.

TL;DR: of my argument however would be:

>A charged attack from Krayt would likely do the same as Vitiate's, we see how much charging can change lightning blasts, and Krayt's casual lightning is pretty impressive already.
> Suggesting Cade and Nihl are far below Revan is irrelevant, I'm not saying Krayt can play with Revan the same as them, simply that Revan as of the novel has no feats suggesting he could do it to the same extent. Not to mention even if he's Krayt's equal in TK, Krayt would be in a favourable environment so the gap largens.
> Powerscaling for Krayt is pretty undeniable however, if you do it right. On the other hand, much of the Powerscaling for Vitiate is shaky. Not saying it's unusable, but if you want to go the route of Malak being > The Ancients, then you'd have to accept that Krayt could TK the Satellite feat with utter ease, since he's much stronger than someone who's much stronger than someone who is stronger than the Sith who pulled it off... Either way Krayt's power scaling is better.
> A large amount, in the scale of things, probably not. You're right. He couldn't read up on Revan etc. He could however mentally prepare himself, and build power, similar to how both Xedrix and Nyriss did in the same novel.
> Revan was a balanced force wielder wielding the Light. Vitiate is a dark force wielder in a focal point of the Kaas nexus. Should help a lot with recharging and extending force pools.
> Perhaps, thats not Revan's best feat though so it's not indicative that he was at his best....

Huh, that ended up being longer than expected.

S_W_LeGenD
Vitiate wipes the floor with Darth Krayt.

carthage
Obviously Vitiate has a resistance to drain

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Selenial
>A charged attack from Krayt would likely do the same as Vitiate's, we see how much charging can change lightning blasts, and Krayt's casual lightning is pretty impressive already.
Based on?

Darth Krayt's casual expressions of Force Lightning being pretty impressive means squat here. Galen Marek's casual expressions of Force Lightning were also formidable but they did squat to Darth Vader, a Force-user more vulnerable to Force Lightning then Revan by a long shot.

Originally posted by Selenial
> Suggesting Cade and Nihl are far below Revan is irrelevant, I'm not saying Krayt can play with Revan the same as them, simply that Revan as of the novel has no feats suggesting he could do it to the same extent. Not to mention even if he's Krayt's equal in TK, Krayt would be in a favourable environment so the gap largens.
Revan could use both the Light and Dark sides of the Force to his advantage in combat situations. He was not disadvantaged on Dromund Kaas.

Originally posted by Selenial
> Powerscaling for Krayt is pretty undeniable however, if you do it right. On the other hand, much of the Powerscaling for Vitiate is shaky. Not saying it's unusable, but if you want to go the route of Malak being > The Ancients, then you'd have to accept that Krayt could TK the Satellite feat with utter ease, since he's much stronger than someone who's much stronger than someone who is stronger than the Sith who pulled it off... Either way Krayt's power scaling is better.
Shaky in what sense?

Vitiate became more powerful in the ways of the Force then every Sith who co-existed with him and/or came before him. The list includes heavyweights such as Tulak Hord, Darth Revan, Darth Nihilus, Marka Ragnos, Karness Muur and Exar Kun.

Karness Muur was implied to be superior to Darth Vader and capable of tackling Darth Krayt. Vitiate should be significantly above him by virtue of power-scaling.

Originally posted by Selenial
> A large amount, in the scale of things, probably not. You're right. He couldn't read up on Revan etc. He could however mentally prepare himself, and build power, similar to how both Xedrix and Nyriss did in the same novel.
Vitiate unleashed his charged attack Revan could close the gap. The former doesn't needs a minute to charge an attack.

Originally posted by Selenial
> Revan was a balanced force wielder wielding the Light. Vitiate is a dark force wielder in a focal point of the Kaas nexus. Should help a lot with recharging and extending force pools.
Vitiate is implied to be godlike avatar of the Dark Side. Why would environment matter to him?

Originally posted by Selenial
> Perhaps, thats not Revan's best feat though so it's not indicative that he was at his best....

Huh, that ended up being longer than expected.
That showing is better then anything Darth Krayt have demonstrated in terms of raw power.

Syndicate
Vitiate.

Selenial
Legend, I was looking for a debate, not listening to you ramble then wasting time replying. Your recent attempts in the cross-universe threads to wank Shitiate leaves me and many others little reason to care what you say.

Tho Skillz if you want to reply feel free.

Edit: lmfao, phone autocorrects Vitiate to Shitiate. What can I say, it gets me.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I prolly will an reply at some point, or not at all. Depends on what I'm doing today. smile

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Selenial
Legend, I was looking for a debate, not listening to you ramble then wasting time replying. Your recent attempts in the cross-universe threads to wank Shitiate leaves me and many others little reason to care what you say.

Tho Skillz if you want to reply feel free.

Edit: lmfao, phone autocorrects Vitiate to Shitiate. What can I say, it gets me.
This is a cop-out.

Concession accepted.

ILS
an bumpo

an krayt

Deronn_solo
Yeah, Krayt.

Ursumeles
Krayt.

The Ellimist
Novel Vitiate is closer to Vader than he is to Palpatine, so Krayt.

ILS
My boner for Reborn Krayt has been aroused once again, I think he'd be able to at least take this Vitiate.

Ursumeles
Could see Vader>Novel Vitate, tbh

The Ellimist
Originally posted by Ursumeles
Could see Vader>Novel Vitate, tbh

I still have Vitiate above, but not by as much as most people.

Ursumeles
I could, not that I do.
I have NVitate somwhere between Vader and Kun/Krayt. Maybe on Caedus Level.

AncientPower
People ranking Revan Reborn dawn low.

Emperordmb
Yeah, Vitiate wins unquestionably, but Krayt puts up a better fight than Novel Revan did.

Ursumeles

Deronn_solo
Nah, Krayt Reborn is just insanely powerful, when we scale from what he has done in a state where he was vastly vitiated by the Vong infection.

Honestly, Vong Krayt > Revan Reborn.

ILS
Someone remind of what condition Revan was in prior to fighting Vitiate. Torture, poison, fatigue and nexus come to mind but I haven't read the novel and have no time for legit research.

And I mean, is it hard to believe Krayt could do the dirty on a weakened Revan while at his peak, amped to all hell and with a charged up attack?

At the very least if, if, Vitiate is more powerful than Krayt, he's utterly outmatched as a warrior which could spell his end, and Krayt has his healing.

Ursumeles
Originally posted by ILS
Someone remind of what condition Revan was in prior to fighting Vitiate. Torture, poison, fatigue and nexus come to mind but I haven't read the novel and have no time for legit research.

And I mean, is it hard to believe Krayt could do the dirty on a weakened Revan while at his peak, amped to all hell and with a charged up attack?

At the very least if, if, Vitiate is more powerful than Krayt, he's utterly outmatched as a warrior which could spell his end, and Krayt has his healing.
smile thumb up

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by ILS
Someone remind of what condition Revan was in prior to fighting Vitiate. Torture, poison, fatigue and nexus come to mind but I haven't read the novel and have no time for legit research.

And I mean, is it hard to believe Krayt could do the dirty on a weakened Revan while at his peak, amped to all hell and with a charged up attack?

At the very least if, if, Vitiate is more powerful than Krayt, he's utterly outmatched as a warrior which could spell his end, and Krayt has his healing.
Three years of torture. Extensive Force-inhibiting drugs. Not fighting for three years. Dark side nexus.

Yes. Vitiate wins.

ILS
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Three years of torture. Extensive Force-inhibiting drugs. Not fighting for three years. Dark side nexus.

Yes. Vitiate wins. I see! Thanks.

You didn't really do much for Viti there. Why do you think he wins?

DarthAnt66
I don't see reason to believe a significant increase of power from the novel and the game. They should be on the same level, or at least very close.

ILS
What would be 2 or 3 of the most compelling pieces of evidence you would use for novel/swtor Vitiate > Krayt? Ima do my own digging but I'm curious.

UCanShootMyNova
Tbh Vitiate.

DarthAnt66
His accolades putting himself above any entity who has came before as per the codex and the encyclopedia, meaning he's better than Soa, the World Razer, Exar Kun, the Dread Masters, etc. And then SoR portrayed Vitiate as being significantly more powerful than any being in the galaxy and that if Revan resuects him, the Galaxy would be dead.

His hype surrounding his telepathic and corruption abilities. It's said Jedi can fall to the dark side by just being in his presence. We also see his mind just skimming against Scourge's sending him to the ground. The Wrath remarked even the Dread Masters, who devastated fleets and changed worlds, were nothing to the powers of Vitiate.

His hype. It's clear the writers want him more of a Palpatine than a Revan/Krayt. Even before his transformation he was a prodigal child who was the apprentice of Marka Ragnos. Then he consumed the power of an entire world and 8,000 Sith Lords and became immortal. He then had thousands of years to further hone and master his dark side abilities.

UCanShootMyNova
Tbh. thumb up

ILS
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
His accolades putting himself above any entity who has came before as per the codex and the encyclopedia, meaning he's better than Soa, the World Razer, Exar Kun, the Dread Masters, etc. And then SoR portrayed Vitiate as being significantly more powerful than any being in the galaxy and that if Revan resuects him, the Galaxy would be dead.

His hype surrounding his telepathic and corruption abilities. It's said Jedi can fall to the dark side by just being in his presence. We also see his mind just skimming against Scourge's sending him to the ground. The Wrath remarked even the Dread Masters, who devastated fleets and changed worlds, were nothing to the powers of Vitiate.

His hype. It's clear the writers want him more of a Palpatine than a Revan/Krayt. Even before his transformation he was a prodigal child who was the apprentice of Marka Ragnos. Then he consumed the power of an entire world and 8,000 Sith Lords and became immortal. He then had thousands of years to further hone and master his dark side abilities. Krayt displayed Force reserves along similar lines to Luke Skywalker, albeit inevitably inferior, at a time where he was a hundred years before his prime. Luke likely being superior to Palpatine and Valkorion. I think he'd be better than any of them as well. According to Marr, who isn't much of a source, "All life in the galaxy, in time" would be consumed, after Vitiate would destroy Revan and the other main characters. In that sense I agree, Vitiate would eventually kill off/drain anyone who couldn't stand against him. But maybe not all at once.

I can agree Viti has better telepathy, the question is more whether or not he could use it successfully against Krayt. Krayt's willpower is insane.

Eh. Things Krayt has in common with Sidious:

-Rose the Sith and ruled over them in secret as their Emperor
-Ruled the galaxy and came close to destroying the Jedi (with sources even juxtaposing Sidious and Krayt's empires, because Krayt inherited some of what Palpatine built)
-Had a Skywalker/prodigal Jedi who struggled with the Dark Side as his main rival, and wanted to convert him to the Dark for his own uses.

Things Cade/Luke have in common with Revan:

-Prodigal knight with a lot of natural talent
-Struggled between the Light and Dark, taking the troubled hero role
-Clearly inferior to the Sith Emperor of his time

Only difference is Vitiate was recycled far more than Krayt, because he either wins, or if he dies he returns in a new body. Thematically, there's no huge difference.

Also, points I would push in Krayt's favour:

-Maybe telekinesis
-Maybe lightning
-Combative skill
-Healing
-All physical attributes

One saber throw could f*ck Vitiate up while he's focused on something else, like attacking Krayt's mind. Krayt lulled Wyyrlok into walking into lightsaber range, and Aryn Leneer doing some saber-throw f*ckery was enough to baffle Malgus briefly; I see it as being quite plausible indeed against someone as clumsy as Vitiate, who at times will meet you halfway and walk into your sword. And any respite Krayt gets can be spent healing, putting Vitiate back to square-one.

Nephthys
Originally posted by ILS
-Maybe telekinesis
-Maybe lightning

https://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-crossarms.gif

Ursumeles
ILS thumb up
Very good job!

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by ILS
Krayt displayed Force reserves along similar lines to Luke Skywalker, albeit inevitably inferior, at a time where he was a hundred years before his prime.
Not really. He showed greater endurance, but so has Caedus.



He's probably not.


Well for one, Krayt isn't coming close to "destroying" Revan. He's probably not even Revan's equal, but I'm generous.

Also, here's a vision from the Wrath of what would happen if Vitiate returns: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLE5EU33mR4&t=0m25s

That's obviously beyond Krayt's abilities. Hell, being honest, as Neph has pointed out in the past, SoR implies that Vitiate would be more powerful than all the main protagonists combined (potentially Revan included). The prospect of joining Revan and aiding him when he resurrects Vitiate wasn't even considered, making me believe that such a plan would also be doomed from the start.

And then after SoR, Vitiate laid waste to Ziost, destroying massive structures with waves of dark side energy that also disintegrated everyone it came across. As I said, he shouldn't be significantly more powerful than novel Vitiate, and even being close to this level of power is well beyond anything Darth Krayt has ever hoped to show.


Krayt fell to his knees against Wyyrlok's telepathy. With someone as powerful as Vitiate, I have doubts Krayt is getting up.


There's no way you genuinely believe Krayt's more of your Palpatine/Vitiate than your Revan/Vader. erm

Hell, Darth Malak fits most your Palpatine/Krayt standards.



Things in Vitiate's favor:

- Definitely telekinesis
- Definitely lightning
- Definitely telepathy
- Greater raw power
- Greater Force mastery

Also, again, Krayt likely isn't better than the World Razer or Soa.

Vitiate is.


I doubt Vitiate would have to put as much focus against Krayt as he did against Revan. Their willpower isn't comparable.


He didn't "lure" Wyyrlok. Wyyrlok was ****ing him up and Krayt overcame.


I doubt it. Revan opted to use a Force attack rather than a lightsaber throw against Vitiate, presumably out of reason that it would be the most effective.

---

I don't see Krayt overcoming Vitiate's lightning storm.

I don't see Krayt willing through Vitiate's telepathy.

I don't see Krayt besting Vitiate in a telekinetic battle.

I don't see Krayt's mastery or knowledge being even close.

MS Warehouse
thumb up

DarthAnt66
To add on, I think the best way for recognizing Vitiate's superiority over Krayt is first accepting the parity between Krayt and Revan.

Azronger
Krayt wins this. I don't think Vitiate could've beaten Revan without his nexus (yup, I said it). And Krayt is in Revan's level.

ILS
They bad both received similar injuries and were relying on the Force for sustenance. Krayt was up first, Luke received a pep talk from Mara's ghost just to continue living. Even accounting for Sith being able to use pain for fuel, Krayt being able to do that shows immense raw power and mastery of it - it wasn't just a physical game, if anything was physical in Beyond Shadows.

His potential is meant to be double that of Palpatine's, superior in any case, and went through enough conflict and training over the years to cultivate that power. It's logical for him to have surpassed Palps, and Palps is > Valk.

To "kill" someone in Star Wars is commonly substituted with "destroy" - I don't think they mean it in our versus forum sense of the word, meaning to win quickly and clearly. You can't rule out the possibility that Krayt could kill Revan in a fight. Also, while Vitiate is obviously better than Revan by SWTOR, you're using Marr again.

These are admittedly fair points, though my question to you now is; do you really believe Novel Vitiate is also capable of this in a combative sense? Without being a spirit, using a ritual or by whatever means Vitiate would use to devour stars etc?

Also, Visions aren't always true.

He fell on his knees to Wyyrlok's prepped telepathy which drew on all of Krayt's worst nightmares, with Wyyrlok being the ideal person to exploit them given how intimately he knew Krayt. And not only did he get back up and stab Wyyrlok after enduring the brunt of it, he claims that the trap was his, not Wyyrlok's, implying he lured Wyyrlok into believing his telepathy was working.

Wyyrlok killed Andeddu, a revered ancient Sith, in a telepathic struggle with just willpower; Andeddu could do the same to other Force users. Wyyrlok had a homefield edge, gave it his best shot, and Krayt walked through him.

What has Vitiate done to suggest he can permanently floor Krayt without any prior knowledge of him? I don't mind nexus showings if you can convince me that the nexus doesn't make up the difference of who Vitiate subdued and Wyyrlok.

You were basing your conclusion on what the writers presented Vitiate as; holistically, Krayt fits the theme of Sith Emperor in search of galactic power and immortality better than prodigal knight. It's a trope in Star Wars scattered all over the EU and in the movies. It doesn't necessarily denote power between eras (otherwise as you say, Malak could pass for a Sidious since he at one point led the Sith etc), but if anything Krayt is boxed as more of a Sidious than a contender for Sidious. People contend with him in Legacy, because he's the best. And they would all lose. In any case, I don't think we can conclude anything useful from this.

Why?

Why?

I think a Krayt who isn't nearly as badly injured and weakened as Revan, facing a non-amped Vitiate, would suffice to require all of his focus, actually. Revan's willpower is insane and all, but so is Krayt's. Do you really think Revan's is so much better he also makes up the difference of the circumstances in the novel?

Krayt disagrees, and well, it worked out for him. Given that he knows how Wyyrlok would operate in a fight, being his most trusted lieutenant, I'm going to take his word for it. It might not have been easy but Krayt was in control. All he did in their Force exchange was repel Wyyrlok's attacks, much like Yoda did Dooku's.

Just because it didn't happen, doesn't mean it can't. Revan first tried to just rush Vitiate and was repelled, but when Vitiate used telepathy he gave Revan an opening to use the Force. A lightsaber is a fine substitute, and Krayt carries two, or a Force attack to put Vitiate on his works too. Or, throw a lightsaber while Vitiate is on his ass. The point is, the guy isn't infallible when it comes to compromising himself against a more skilled fighter, and Reborn Krayt is not only more skilled than him, but he's better than the incredibly weakened Reborn Revan who Vitiate took on.

Also? Vitiate is incredibly prone to charging up attacks (and what he doesn't charge up can be batted aside/blocked, as Revan showed). Krayt can easily exploit that opening with lightning or TK.

Also? Vitiate thought it wise to give Revan time to heal himself. If he provides Krayt the same courtesy when he's presumably dead to rights, and it's likely to happen given Vitiate's arrogance, Krayt is going to return to 100% and give Viti the fright of his life.

DarthAnt66
Good points. Working on a rebuttal now.

DarthAnt66
All good points, like I said earlier. However, you haven't necessarily presented arguments in favor of Darth Krayt yet.

I think the best way to recognize Vitiate's abilities in telekinesis, Force lightning, telepathy, raw power, etc. is to see where his inferiors stand.

TELEPATHY:


That's fair, but a few key points here:

a.) The fact Darth Krayt had to lure Darth Wyyrlok into a trap suggests he could not have bested him easily otherwise. If his power was significantly greater, he could have overwhelmed him with Force powers or his lightsaber skills, but he didn't. The fact Darth Krayt was willing to be brought to his knees with Darth Wyyrlok's lightsaber ready suggests desperation.

b.) Alternatively, the prospect of Darth Wyyrlok bringing Darth Krayt to his knees on fair grounds is still possible. Darth Krayt musing that this was was his trap, not Wyyrlok's, was after Krayt visibly overcame the illusions. As we see in the comic, Krayt is blatantly in distraught and dismay, clenching his head and his face pale and sagging. If Wyyrlok didn't decide to give a short "time to die" speech before bringing down his lightsaber, Krayt would have probably been dead.



Also, it stands to reason that Vitiate would be capable of producing far greater results than Darth Wyyrlok.

a.) Scourge has shown immense pain resistance, walking through a Dark Council member's lightning storm and walking away after significant physical injuries such as broken ribs, cuts across his head and body, etc. At the end of the novel, Scourge endures Vitiate's ritual of immortality, which yielded sensations like the following: "invisible claws tore at his insides, seemingly shredding his vital organs." He also wasn't nearly as affected by the Nathema nexus as Meetra Surik, suggesting comparable, if not greater, willpower. And yet a mere brush of Vitiate's power brought Scourge instantly to his knees, shrieking with pain. "The touch lasted less than a second, but in that time he witnessed indescribable horrors that dwarfed anything the dark side could conjure even in his worst nightmares. And beneath the formless terrors lurked the unbearable Void, the pure emptiness of total annihilation."

b.) The game makes clear that even the combined powers of the Dread Masters, when even considering the nexus of Oricon, were "insignificant" next to that of Vitiate (obviously note no one has even seen Vitiate's full power at display). The Dread Masters are capable of "breaking entire armies" with "crippling fear and mass hysteria." A source even states that "Republic and Imperial ships were torn apart by dark waves of madness and fear." They were also capable of enslaving an army of hundreds of Sith Lords, their mere presence killed anyone in a 900 foot radius around them even when on Force-hindering drugs, and brought the Hero of Tython to his knees from across the galaxy. And yet Vitiate was capable of keeping them "in check" throughout his life, with the Dread Masters even respecting his power.

Also, Darth Revan showed the ability of Drain knowledge shortly after his encounter with Vitiate. Note that when he confronted Vitiate, the Dark Lord peered into his mind, making me believe that he would have learned said technique. Also obviously note that chances are he already knew it after thousands of years of study. Basically, he should be capable of bringing Krayt's foremost fears to the forefront of his mind. Alternatively, Vitiate might just completely sunder Krayt's mind with the dark side and dominate it by virtue of sheer and absolute emptiness and annihilation, like he did against Scourge and attempted against Revan. Point is, he's beyond Krayt's pay-grade.


Dark side spirits are generally weaker than their physical bodies. I can point to numerous examples of the ancient Sith being humiliated by novice Jedi.


I do. Revan wasn't in prime condition when he overpowered death itself, nor when he resisted the corruptive energies of Malachor, the absolute void of Nathema, the ancient evil of Korriban, or the overwhelming influence of the Star Forge. And furthermore, Revan's already confronted Vitiate, so he has an inherent advantage there. Darth Krayt doesn't. The fact he went through the Embrace of Pain (something Darth Nihl did) and overcame Darth Wyyrlok after a struggle isn't enough for me to put him close to Revan's level when discussing how they would both respectively fare against Vitiate. Sure, Darth Krayt also brought himself back from the brink of death, but so has Darth Maul, and I doubt you'd make the claim that Maul would have any chance against Vtiiate's telepathy.

FORCE LIGHTNING:



It's a matter of scaling, really.

Darth Krayt's lightning has never impressed me much, in truth. A lot of his feats and scalling is related to the Yuuzhan Vong, which are infamously weak against Force lightning (Traitor aside).

I recognize his scaling as being far better at it than any other Sith in his era, but Vitiate trumps that.

Darth Nyriss, after charging her energy for twenty seconds, was capable of disintegrating Meetra Surik and Scourge at the same time. When the energy was released, Revan jumped in front of it and backhanded the lightning back at Darth Nyriss. The result was Darth Nyriss being turned into a pile of ash. I take this as indication that Revan is capable of dishing out more raw power in a split second than Darth Nyriss can in twenty (obviously keeping in mind what Darth Nyriss can do with that twenty second lightning). In other words, Revan should be capable of disintegrating Darth Nyriss with his own power fairly easily (note he's in worse shape here than he was against Vitiate).

Now, note the following:

a.) Vitiate's (charged) lightning is 'infinitely" more powerful than Darth Nyriss' (charged) lightning. Keep in mind the Vitiate likely charged it for less than a second, whereas Darth Nyriss did so for twenty.

b.) Vitiate is more powerful than Revan, making me believe he could also disintegrate Darth Nyriss.

Now, of course, disintegrating a Darth Nyriss-tier Force user *is* beyond anything any character has shown in the Legacy era.


TELEKINESIS:



Darth Krayt's best telekinetic display, if you ask me, was his handling of Darth Nihl.

While great, here's what Soa did against the protagonists (note this could have happened to Darth Nox) while fighting the rest:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4793621-3243762457-47934.gif

Now, note that Vitiate is more powerful than Soa as of SWTOR, and logically more powerful or at least around the same level as of the novel.

I think it's fairly clear which display of telekinesis is more impressive.

DarthAnt66
OTHER:


This is certainly impressive, but I think a greater emphasis on the highlighted should be considered. The Embrace of Pain was a vital component of Darth Krayt's transformation, the entire point of that was using pain as a source of power. It stands to reason that he'll be capable of walking away quicker from a fight than an aging Luke Skywalker. If Darth Caedus was in the same situation, I'd imagine he would also walk away.


Lucas' intentions on what he imagined Skywalker to be doesn't reflect that of the EU writers.


I think novel Vitiate is at least *comparable* to this incarnation of Vitiate, and that's good enough for me.

Note that the vision was of a physical Vitiate, not a spirit version. The game didn't suggest a ritual either.

Sure, but even being thought of as having enough power to destroy the Rishi Maze dwarf galaxy is insane.


Fair enough. I'll concede on this. It seems more based on subjective rather than objective ideas.



Revan already confronted Vitiate and should know the best ways to undermine him.

I don't think the opening provided Revan with a means of throwing the lightsaber anyway. Hurling something at Vitiate with the Force is a lot different from unleashing a blast of power.

And as I hope I made clear throughout my post, Darth Krayt might not even be better than the Revan in question. At least not in willpower.



I don't think this is fair to say. There's a difference from attempting to dominate Revan's mind but failing too, and then being inherently prone to all durated Force attacks.

Vitiate should be capable of handling Krayt's attacks due to having greater power (as outlined above). Even in a war of non-charged attacks, he should come out as the better.

Vitiate's lightning has also shown the ability to stop Revan dead in his tracks, and his telekinesis has pushed Revan dozens of meters back, suggesting he can't simply be rushed and killed.


Vitiate didn't think it was wise. But rather he was distracted by a new wave of opponents rushing in to confront him.

The opportunity wouldn't have been presented to Revan otherwise.

Likewise, I think it's possible that Vitiate truly does have the raw power of thousands of Sith Lords, and if true, he should be able to consistently defeat Darth Krayt.

---

tl;dr: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq5X3F3g69c&t=9m37s

DarthAnt66
This debate is quickly becoming too long for my liking, so expect my future posts to be getting exponentially shorter.

Azronger
Why is Vitiate destroying a galaxy in a vision taken seriously here? The game notes it would take a ritual that required centuries of prep, and Vitiate's best feat is destroying a planet, not a galaxy, lol.

DarthAnt66
The vision was him destroying the Rishi Maze, which is significantly different from the galaxy-consuming ritual from the Vanilla.

MS Warehouse
Originally posted by Azronger
Why is Vitiate destroying a galaxy in a vision taken seriously here? The game notes it would take a ritual that required centuries of prep, and Vitiate's best feat is destroying a planet, not a galaxy, lol.

Remind me where it said it would take "centuries" of prep? All that was mentioned is it would take a galaxy spanning war.

Azronger
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The vision was him destroying the Rishi Maze, which is significantly different from the galaxy-consuming ritual from the Vanilla.

Um, you are aware that dwarf galaxies are still galaxies? You know, those things that have billions of stars in them and are thousands of lightyears in diameter? If you believe Vitiate is a galaxy buster then bring evidence other than a sketchy vision. Vitiate's best feat is still only planetary.

DarthAnt66
The evidence is the vision. thumb up

You're disrupting the debate though.

MS Warehouse
Originally posted by Azronger
Um, you are aware that dwarf galaxies are still galaxies? You know, those things that have billions of stars in them and are thousands of lightyears in diameter? If you believe Vitiate is a galaxy buster then bring evidence other than a sketchy vision. Vitiate's best feat is still only planetary.

A vision IS evidence for what would happen, lol. Just say "I don't like TOR", and we'll get it.

Azronger
Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Remind me where it said it would take "centuries" of prep? All that was mentioned is it would take a galaxy spanning war.

"The Emperor has manipulated events for centuries towards one goal: performing an even greater ritual that will destroy this galaxy.But the ritual requires a great sacrifice to begin: billions of simultaneous deaths."

-Lord Scourge

MS Warehouse
Originally posted by Azronger
"The Emperor has manipulated events for centuries towards one goal: performing an even greater ritual that will destroy this galaxy.But the ritual requires a great sacrifice to begin: billions of simultaneous deaths."

-Lord Scourge

You're not much of a reader if you translated that into "it takes centuries of prep for a ritual"! Anyone with a 3rd grade reading level can understand that the "centuries" mentioned is how long it would take for a galaxy spanning war that could result in the death of billions. This doesn't even need a rebuttal.

Azronger
Of course it would happen if he were given a hundred years of prep. Ant acts as if that feat is combat-applicable.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The vision was him destroying the Rishi Maze, which is significantly different from the galaxy-consuming ritual from the Vanilla. erm

"Every star went dim, both in that galaxy and our own. The end of everything."

Azronger
Originally posted by MS Warehouse
You're not much of a reader if you translated that into "it takes centuries of prep for a ritual"! Anyone with a 3rd grade reading level can understand that the "centuries" mentioned is how long it would take for a galaxy spanning war that could result in the death of billions. This doesn't even need a rebuttal.

If he manipulated events for centuries toward that ritual, then yes, it took him centuries of prep.

MS Warehouse
Originally posted by Azronger
If he manipulated events for centuries toward that ritual, then yes, it took him centuries of prep.

No, it really didn't. That's not "ritual prep", lol. Like I said, no point even responding to such nonsense after this post.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The evidence is the vision. thumb up

You're disrupting the debate though. Without contexts it doesn't actually prove anything, lel.

MS Warehouse
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Without contexts it doesn't actually prove anything, lel.

Context*
It proves that if Vitiate is able to get the ritual off, he'd destroy the galaxy. That was the central theme in TOR. What else do you want it to prove?

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Azronger
"The Emperor has manipulated events for centuries towards one goal: performing an even greater ritual that will destroy this galaxy.But the ritual requires a great sacrifice to begin: billions of simultaneous deaths."

-Lord Scourge

👍

Ant's effort is pretty solid, but I'm extremely unconvinced that novel!Vitiate would definitely take reborn!Krayt. I'm with ILS.

MS Warehouse
Originally posted by The_Tempest
👍

Ant's effort is pretty solid, but I'm extremely unconvinced that novel!Vitiate would definitely take reborn!Krayt. I'm with ILS.

You're giving thumbs up to a blatant misinterpretation of a quote you could understand when you were 12? Interesting to see your objectivity thumb up

The_Tempest
Originally posted by MS Warehouse
You're giving thumbs up to a blatant misinterpretation of a quote you could understand when you were 12? Interesting to see your objectivity thumb up

Calm down. He's right: the quote very clearly says that the prepwork for the ritual spanned centuries. It's literally right there in the text, no inference or guesswork involved.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Context*
It proves that if Vitiate is able to get the ritual off, he'd destroy the galaxy. That was the central theme in TOR. What else do you want it to prove? Something relevant to the debate? laughing out loud

As it's been pointed out this is not something Vitiate can achieved with his own power alone, he needs colossal sacrifice to harness this level of power.

MS Warehouse
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Calm down. He's right: the quote very clearly says that the prepwork for the ritual spanned centuries. It's literally right there in the text, no inference or guesswork involved.

Oh I'm calm, I'm just amused at how far you've come. The quote very clearly indicates it took centuries of preparation to begin another galaxy spanning war, not that he needed centuries to prep the ritual, just a war that encompasses the entire galaxy and billions of death. So it's not literally there in the text.


The current argument (and distraction from the debate) was the ritual. Of course we know it can't be used in a debate.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Oh I'm calm, I'm just amused at how far you've come. The quote very clearly indicates it took centuries of preparation to begin another galaxy spanning war, not that he needed centuries to prep the ritual, just a war that encompasses the entire galaxy and billions of death. So it's not literally there in the text.


The current argument (and distraction from the debate) was the ritual. Of course we know it can't be used in a debate.

The text says he manipulated events for centuries to satisfy one goal: the ritual. The ritual required the deaths. The war precipitates the deaths.

It's prepwork for the ritual, which was the guy's point, which is reflected in the text.

All there. Black and white. Calm down.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by MS Warehouse
The current argument (and distraction from the debate) was the ritual. Of course we know it can't be used in a debate. The current argument was whether this vision should be taken seriously in this debate. confused

Answer: It should not.

MS Warehouse
Originally posted by The_Tempest
The text says he manipulated events for centuries to satisfy one goal: the ritual. The ritual required the deaths. The war precipitates the deaths.

It's prepwork for the ritual, which was the guy's point, which is reflected in the text.

All there. Black and white. Calm down.

The guy's point is that this kind of ritual takes centuries of prep. Any galaxy spanning war would have fulfilled the necessary conditions of the ritual. Therefore the ritual does not need centuries of prep.

I'm calm, your move thumb up

The_Tempest
Originally posted by MS Warehouse
The guy's point is that this kind of ritual takes centuries of prep. Any galaxy spanning war would have fulfilled the necessary conditions of the ritual. Therefore the ritual does not need centuries of prep.

I'm calm, your move thumb up

The ritual did require the centuries of prepwork... Given the extant circumstances. Had circumstances been different and the stage already been set, probably not. But that has nothing to do with his point. Your response on this particular point is no different than telling me if my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle.

He said the ritual required centuries of prepwork. It did. He's right. 👍

MS Warehouse
Originally posted by The_Tempest
The ritual did require the centuries of prepwork... Given the extant circumstances. Had circumstances been different and the stage already been set, probably not. But that has nothing to do with his point. Your response on this particular point is no different than telling me if my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle.

He said the ritual required centuries of prepwork. It did. He's right. 👍

The actual "ritual" began right after Vitiate's Voss voice died and was set to take place with the collapse of Corellia, potentially taking a few days/weeks at best.

Don't be daft. You know exactly the difference between a ritual prep (Nathema) and prepping to perform a ritual (this case). I applaud your attempts at reaching here (I wish I shared your dedication towards the PT/OT text), but no. If Vitiate had a standing empire from day 1, he could have performed the ritual from day 1. Therefore, the ritual did not need "centuries" of prep. thumb up

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Azronger
If he manipulated events for centuries toward that ritual, then yes, it took him centuries of prep.

He succinctly explains himself right here. He never claimed it would take centuries to perform the ritual, just that the ritual itself required centuries of prepwork, which is true.

Calm down.

MS Warehouse
Originally posted by The_Tempest
He succinctly explains himself right here. He never claimed it would take centuries to perform the ritual, just that the ritual itself required centuries of prepwork, which is true.

Calm down.



Must have missed this, huh? I'm calm, your move thumb up

The_Tempest
How can I miss it when I literally quoted it: he said the ritual required centuries of prepwork. I said the same thing.

He never said the ritual would take centuries to perform. You misinterpreted his argument, even after he explained himself.

He's right. Calm. Down.

MS Warehouse
Originally posted by The_Tempest
How can I miss it when I literally quoted it: he said the ritual required centuries of prepwork. I said the same thing.

He never said the ritual would take centuries to perform. You misinterpreted his argument, even after he explained himself.

He's right. Calm. Down.

I think you're misinterpreting the argument here. I don't think he's differentiating between prepping/performing this ritual. Especially since (for the 10th time), given the context of what the "prep" was, it didn't actually require centuries of prep, just a galactic war. I'm calm, your move thumb up

The_Tempest
As long as you're this upset, a productive conversation isn't possible. Shoot me a message when you've calmed down.

MS Warehouse
Originally posted by The_Tempest
As long as you're this upset, a productive conversation isn't possible. Shoot me a message when you've calmed down.

Assertion: It took centuries of prep
Requirement (only known): A galaxy wide war with billions of deaths

Logical Conclusion: A galaxy wide war with billions of deaths that just happened to take centuries to achieve given the Empire's infant stages. Ergo, time frame is irrelevant.

I think you're getting confused between sufficient and necessary conditions. I also enjoy your go to pitch (you're upset) when you're not in "the mood". I'll accept your mistake (and possibly concession). thumb up

The_Tempest
That's not calm.

MS Warehouse
You're right. That's a damn good rebuttal. Thank you for your words of encouragement. I don't know if I could have done this without them.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by MS Warehouse
You're right.

That's what I've been trying to tell you.

MS Warehouse

The_Tempest
Originally posted by The_Tempest
He's right. Calm. Down.

The_Tempest
It's been 3 minutes with no response, I win.

UCanShootMyNova
Tempest has successfully calmed beefy down.

thumb up

The_Tempest
I'm a soothing presence.

UCanShootMyNova
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'm a soothing presence.

Btw Tempest. I do not presume to assume Galen's superiority to our Lord. I simply wish to acknowledge the possibility due to the gaps left open by TFU authors.

Yours always, Syndi. smile

MS Warehouse
There's no need to calm me down. I know tempest's reactions when he's on the losing end. There's just nothing more to add after dropping a textual mic.

UCanShootMyNova
He did try to insinuate Dooku+ force users were capable of willing their force reserves back after nearly exhausting them...

The_Tempest
Originally posted by MS Warehouse
There's no need to calm me down. I know tempest's reactions when he's on the losing end. There's just nothing more to add after dropping a textual mic.

Are you back to being not calm? erm

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by The_Tempest
👍

Ant's effort is pretty solid, but I'm extremely unconvinced that novel!Vitiate would definitely take reborn!Krayt. I'm with ILS.
As if that's my only argument, or even close to my main.

I love how KMC takes a hundredth of an argument and turns that into the central theme.

Leave it to Beni to do something as retarded as that. thumb up

The Ellimist
Tbh Tempest just taught me a lot.

The_Tempest
How so?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
As if that's my only argument, or even close to my main.

I love how KMC takes a hundredth of an argument and turns that into the central theme.

Leave it to Beni to do something as retarded as that. thumb up

You let me know when you provide your main.

The Ellimist
Originally posted by The_Tempest
How so?


It taught me how to calm down. smile

MS Warehouse
I don't get it, good effort but you're not convinced? Well then. Have you been convinced at all in 8 years

The_Tempest
Originally posted by MS Warehouse
I don't get it, good effort but you're not convinced? Well then. Have you been convinced at all in 8 years

A good effort in that his argument was not without valid points, but so far I've found ILS's position to be stronger. Pretty simple.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by The_Tempest
How so?



You let me know when you provide your main.
Did you read my two post long response to ILS?

Those were my main. thumb up

Not some side comment stuffed in the "Other" section about the Rishi maze.

Not that you fully rebutted said argument anyway, though.

SunRazer
Damn, some good debating here. Krayt might even win here.

The Ellimist
It also depends on how close to Luke you think Krayt was in Apocalypse.

UCanShootMyNova
Not close at all.

MS Warehouse
Originally posted by SunRazer
Damn, some good debating here. Krayt might even win here. reborn krayy can absolutely win if its that version.

SunRazer
Originally posted by The Ellimist
It also depends on how close to Luke you think Krayt was in Apocalypse.

They really weren't all that close. Most comparisons that are drawn there are absolute rubbish.

Still, it's impressive for Krayt to do what he did.

SunRazer
Originally posted by MS Warehouse
reborn krayy can absolutely win if its that version.

Indeed. Dark Transfer is pretty overpowered in a Force-only fight. Not to mention that Krayt's even more powerful than Revan, which means that on neutral ground against novel Vitiate, I'm not seeing much of a chance for the Emperor here, particularly in all-out. He might split with Krayt in Force-only.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by SunRazer
Not to mention that Krayt's even more powerful than Revan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dagWPAoIybs&t=3m12s

SunRazer
Krayt's ridiculously powerful, tbh. Bar Sidious, prime Vitiate, probably Plagueis and perhaps Nihilus, he's above any other Sith, unquestionably.

MS Warehouse
Originally posted by SunRazer
Indeed. Dark Transfer is pretty overpowered in a Force-only fight. Not to mention that Krayt's even more powerful than Revan, which means that on neutral ground against novel Vitiate, I'm not seeing much of a chance for the Emperor here, particularly in all-out. He might split with Krayt in Force-only. Having a chance to beat vitiate and giving vitiate no shot are two incredibly different ideas, one of them dumb. Also claiming krayt is more powerful than revan requires proof, otherwise it's a Beniboybling argument.

Prime revan is also ridiculously powerful.

SunRazer
Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Having a chance to beat vitiate and giving vitiate no shot are two incredibly different ideas, one of them dumb. Also claiming krayt is more powerful than revan requires proof, otherwise it's a Beniboybling argument.

Prime revan is also ridiculously powerful.

I didn't say Vitiate has no shot. He can probably split in Force, but in all-out, I'm highly disinclined to think Vitiate would emerge vicotrious here.

Krayt killing and reviving Cade with a touch is pretty insane. His ability to practically walk through Wyyrlok is, too.

chingchangwalla
Originally posted by SunRazer
Krayt's ridiculously powerful, tbh. Bar Sidious, prime Vitiate, probably Plagueis and perhaps Nihilus, he's above any other Sith, unquestionably.
You gonna stand for this Ant?

DarthAnt66
I wasn't sure if he's including Revan in that assessment, since Revan isn't Sith.

SunRazer
Well, only Darth Revan is a Sith in my book.

I still think he's stronger than Revan, though.

DarthAnt66
He's not.

MS Warehouse
Not stronger than SoR Revan at least. I'll concede all other variations.

The Ellimist
Wait Nova, you have Krayt above Caedus?

SunRazer
Yeah. In Force, at the very minimum.

MS Warehouse
Originally posted by SunRazer
Yeah. In Force, at the very minimum.

thumb up

The_Tempest
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Did you read my two post long response to ILS?

Those were my main. thumb up

Not some side comment stuffed in the "Other" section about the Rishi maze.

Not that you fully rebutted said argument anyway, though.

I did read those. erm

That would be the strong effort I mentioned. I'm mobile this weekend, so my original post was agreeing with that guy in his argument with Beefy and saying that, in the general thread, I'm siding with ILS.

chingchangwalla
Could somebody take the time to give me links to Gideon's best arguments or something?
I haven't seen anything that puts him above Nova, yet it seems everyone believes him to be God...

Ursumeles
I agree thumb up
IIRC, i've read some pretty awesome debates from Gideon, but not on Nova's/ILS Level, tbh.

AncientPower
Originally posted by SunRazer
Krayt's ridiculously powerful, tbh. Bar Sidious, prime Vitiate, probably Plagueis and perhaps Nihilus, he's above any other Sith, unquestionably.

You disappoint me, Nova.

Ziggystardust
Don't get me wrong, Tempest is an awesome debater, just not quite on the level with Sirfizzwhizz / Wollfmyth / Kbroskywalker types

SunRazer
Originally posted by AncientPower
You disappoint me, Nova.

There's a chance that Kun's up there, but it's slim. I rank him higher than Vader, though. You should be grateful for that smile

Ursumeles
Myth at the same level with the other two gave me AIDS. Not even you should have him so low -.-

chingchangwalla
From what I've seen, Nai is the best. He's Palpatine Tier.
Nova and ILS are Valk Tier.
Then Ziggy, Myth, Ant (and prolly Beni) are Kun/Krayt/Revan Tier.

Ziggystardust
I am humbled to even be mentioned in the same sentence of gods such as them.

Azronger
@Beefy

Well, if that quote's not going to convince you, then let's put it this way: The Nathema ritual took ten days of prep, and consumed one planet. So logically, a ritual that consumes an entire galaxy with hundreds of billions of suns and trillions of planets is going to take a bit longer than ten days of prep, no?

Ursumeles
Originally posted by chingchangwalla
From what I've seen, Nai is the best. He's Palpatine Tier.
Nova and ILS are Valk Tier.
Then Ziggy, Myth, Ant (and prolly Beni) are Kun/Krayt/Revan Tier.
Any awesome debates from Nai, to convince me?
Imo Nova is DE Palps Tier, ILS is near him.
The Ellimist is prolly Plagueis Level, maybe even on Yodas.
Myth, Ant and DMB are Krayt/Kun/Revan Tier

chingchangwalla
DMB? Nah him actually liking Bane puts him lower.
Just look at Nai single handedly own everyone in Sidious vs Kun

chingchangwalla
Ellimist is pretty good too, yeah

SunRazer
These comparisons of debaters to SW characters are amusing.

Ursumeles
DMB still sweeps many people, tbh.
I'll look, then.
@SunRazer big grin

MS Warehouse
Originally posted by Azronger
@Beefy

Well, if that quote's not going to convince you, then let's put it this way: The Nathema ritual took ten days of prep, and consumed one planet. So logically, a ritual that consumes an entire galaxy with hundreds of billions of suns and trillions of planets is going to take a bit longer than ten days of prep, no?

The ritual took 10 days to perform. 1,400 years later, it's fairly obvious Vitiate now knows what he's doing. The ritual itself might take a few weeks, sure. Or he may have perfected it like Ziost, which was pretty instant..

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Azronger
@Beefy

Well, if that quote's not going to convince you, then let's put it this way: The Nathema ritual took ten days of prep, and consumed one planet. So logically, a ritual that consumes an entire galaxy with hundreds of billions of suns and trillions of planets is going to take a bit longer than ten days of prep, no?

Are you saying the ritual will take centuries to prepare for or it will take centuries to actually perform? One of these is actually supported by the text. The other one is speculation.

Ziggystardust
Tempest, my lord.

A group of peasants have questioned your almighty greatness. Please show these fools how to smite an opponent's vigor with what I believe is called an 'argument'.

chingchangwalla
Fool? Ziggy I thought we were friends sad

Azronger
Originally posted by MS Warehouse
The ritual took 10 days to perform. 1,400 years later, it's fairly obvious Vitiate now knows what he's doing. The ritual itself might take a few weeks, sure. Or he may have perfected it like Ziost, which was pretty instant..

You're not getting it. Of course when the ritual is activated it would be instantaneous. But preparing that ritual is still going to take ten days. It's like building a computer: building it from scrap metal will take a long time, but once it's finished it will start immediately.

The same applies on a galactic scale, except this time it will take much, much longer.

Ziost is an invalid example, because it wasn't a ritual to begin with. Vitiate can unleash a planetary Death Field the moment he wants, so using a ritual isn't necessary. But if he did decide to do it as a ritual, it would still take ten days, or even longer since he wouldn't have 8000 Sith to help him. If I have a working computer, I can start it immediately, so there's no need for me to build another computer. If I do decide to do it, however, it would still take a long time, and me possessing another working computer doesn't change that.

Do you now understand?

Azronger
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Are you saying the ritual will take centuries to prepare for or it will take centuries to actually perform? One of these is actually supported by the text. The other one is speculation.

Activating it will be instantaneous, but prepping it will take centuries. That's my take on it.

MS Warehouse
Originally posted by Azronger
You're not getting it. Of course when the ritual is activated it would be instantaneous. But preparing that ritual is still going to take ten days. It's like building a computer: building it from scrap metal will take a long time, but once it's finished it will start immediately.

The same applies on a galactic scale, except this time it will take much, much longer.

Ziost is an invalid example, because it wasn't a ritual to begin with. Vitiate can unleash a planetary Death Field the moment he wants, so using a ritual isn't necessary. But if he did decide to do it as a ritual, it would still take ten days, or even longer since he wouldn't have 8000 Sith to help him. If I have a working computer, I can start it immediately, so there's no need for me to build another computer. If I do decide to do it, however, it would still take a long time, and me possessing another working computer doesn't change that.

Do you now understand?

No.

1. The nathema ritual took 10 days. The prep for it was pretty instantaneous. It was Vitiate's first time and he popped his cherry. He absorbed 8,000 sith lords (whether with help or against their will). 1,400 years later, he was pretty clear that he not only mastered it, but can do it on a grand scale. He just needs a galaxy spanning war.

2. The ziost ritual WAS a ritual but at that point, he had mastered it. It was instantaneous. He didn't need sith lords, or prep, or anything. It stands to reason that a galaxy spanning ritual would go a lot faster. It may take weeks or even months. I'm granting you the idea that the vision the Wrath had wasn't instantaneous but over some period of time. The point is, it didn't take "centuries" of prep if all that was needed was a galaxy spanning war.

Ziggystardust
Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Fool? Ziggy I thought we were friends sad

A fool who dares to challenge Gideon the great, is no friend of mine.

Your impatience sets us apart. Come now, we all know that Tempest is not one to run away from a challenge. laughing

chingchangwalla
I never challenged this Gideon. I simply asked to see his best arguments.

Azronger
Originally posted by MS Warehouse
No.

1. The nathema ritual took 10 days. The prep for it was pretty instantaneous. It was Vitiate's first time and he popped his cherry. He absorbed 8,000 sith lords (whether with help or against their will). 1,400 years later, he was pretty clear that he not only mastered it, but can do it on a grand scale. He just needs a galaxy spanning war.

2. The ziost ritual WAS a ritual but at that point, he had mastered it. It was instantaneous. He didn't need sith lords, or prep, or anything. It stands to reason that a galaxy spanning ritual would go a lot faster. It may take weeks or even months. I'm granting you the idea that the vision the Wrath had wasn't instantaneous but over some period of time. The point is, it didn't take "centuries" of prep if all that was needed was a galaxy spanning war.

This is going nowhere. Neither of us is going to convince the other, so we may as well just agree to disagree.

MS Warehouse
Originally posted by Azronger
This is going nowhere. Neither of us is going to convince the other, so we may as well just agree to disagree.

Why agree to disagree when you're wrong? You're claiming Ziost wasn't a ritual. It was. It was also instantaneous without the need for prep. The vision the Wrath had was also instantaneous although I would entertain the possibility that it would take some time to spread throughout the galaxy. There's nothing to disagree on when one of us is wrong.

chingchangwalla
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
A fool who dares to challenge Gideon the great, is no friend of mine.

Your impatience sets us apart. Come now, we all know that Tempest is not one to run away from a challenge. laughing
Oh. Not a fan then

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Don't get me wrong, Tempest is an awesome debater, just not quite on the level with Sirfizzwhizz / Wollfmyth / Kbroskywalker types

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Tempest, my lord.

A group of peasants have questioned your almighty greatness. Please show these fools how to smite an opponent's vigor with what I believe is called an 'argument'.


Originally posted by Ziggystardust
A fool who dares to challenge Gideon the great, is no friend of mine.

Your impatience sets us apart. Come now, we all know that Tempest is not one to run away from a challenge. laughing

I'm trying to determine which is greater: your need for my attention or your need to be seen as a challenge to me. Clearly both are... Considerable.

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