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I sort of made a thread like this earlier, but oh well.

When does Luke surpass...

TPM Sidious
RotS Sidious
RotJ Sidious
DE Sidious

1. In sabers?
2. In the Force?
3. In overall combative ability?

TPM Sidious:
- by post-Dark Empire in sabers
- by mid of the New Republic era (around 20 ABY) in the Force
- by post-Dark Empire overall

RotS Sidious:
- by somewhere in the NJO era in sabers,
- by end of the New Republic era - 25 ABY - in the Force,
- by somewhere in the NJO era overall


RotJ Sidious:
- by somewhere in the NJO era in all


DE Sidious:
- by somewhere in the NJO era in sabers,
- by end of the NJO in TUF,
- by somewhere in mid of NJO.

That is shockingly reasonable. mmm

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Logically, it's somewhere in the late NR era. That's regarding DE Sidious. He'll obviously surpass Sheev in sabers a bit earlier than whenever it takes for him to surpass Sheev in the Force.

Probably sometime in those never read nineties SW books where he's collapsing entire fortresses and stuff to the NJO. He seemed like he was capable of monstrous feats that was beyond to what ROTS Sidious was capable of, he unquestionably surpassed DE Sidious in Dark Nest

My personal canon puts beginning-of-NJO Luke on RotJ Sidious's level as a Force user, and already beyond DE Sidious as a duelist. I'd say he surpasses DE Sidious as a Force user sometime around when he starts manipulating black holes.

Gideon used to believe that Luke hadn't surpassed Palpatine by TUF. mmm

I heard Gideon died or something.

Luke's power didn't grow consistently, IMO. He progressed steadily between ESB and Thrawn, then jumped in power just prior to & during the events of Dark Empire. His power grew a little after that, then waned in the years leading up to the Vong War. After that campaign started he jumped in power again, and reached his physical peak around ~TUF. After that in the following series (DN, LotF) he probably waned some physically, but in exchange expanded his Force knowledge by several paces as of FotJ.

DE Palpatine? Never.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
He progressed steadily between ESB and Thrawn, then jumped in power just prior to & during the events of Dark Empire.

If RotJ Luke really could match Vader in a duel, it seems like you don't need a jump in power just before DE for him to be at that level after several years. It seems like his big jump was from ESB -> RotJ.



Is that actually stated? In the Black Fleet Trilogy he was doing stuff like tearing down fortresses and cloaking capital ships.



What do you mean by "physical peak"? In unamped physicality he probably peaked at around DE.



Did his raw power increase though?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
DE Palpatine? Never.

So Leia can push DE Luke over FotJ Luke? Lol.

Besting a sorcerer in a duel doesn't necessarily mean you're more powerful than the Sorcerer. As for the Force Storm, Luke and Leia were only able to destabilize it because Palpatine's control over the ability was already limited. If it came down to a wizards duel between them, Luke and Leia would probably have been destroyed, Force Harmony or not.

As for DE Palpatine vs Peak Luke--Luke's the stronger of the two, but Palpatine's willingness to harness forbidden and dangerous powers that Luke isn't is a massive advantage. Regardless of the fact that he's stronger, Luke can't hold a candle to the destructive potency of a Force Storm, for instance.

Amped! Luke must have been close enough to Palpatine in raw power to beat him so handily in their duel, even if he were orders and bounds above him in technical skill, which would be unlikely anyway. See: Kas'im vs. PoD Bane. I'd say that gap would realistically be covered and exceeded by Luke's power growth by sometime in NJO. Leia's Force harmony probably isn't a miracle super-haxx that unlocks like more of his potential than decades of improvement does. We also know that Luke's potential outstrips Palpatine's - it's unlikely that he hasn't surpassed him by LotF.

That's powerscaling. Feats is a little harder; Force storms are more destructive than anything Luke's done, but Luke obviously wouldn't use storms anyway. It's also a special technique - Luke's feats using just basic applications like telekinesis outstrip Palpatine's, and lead me to believe he's got more raw power overall, if not the same set of Force abilities.

EDIT: ninja'd by your edit. Luke may not have Force storms, but he has powers that we haven't seen Palpatine use like shatterpoint, fold space, mind walking, Force harmony, etc.

Just how powerful do you guys think a no-restraints dark sided peak Luke would be?

Originally posted by Petrus
Just how powerful do you guys think a no-restraints dark sided peak Luke would be?

Above post-pool Taalon, but below the super-saiyan Luke that was still weaker than Abeloth, IMHO. So, could probably beat two DE Sidious's. If he gets prep time, I'm not sure if any combination of powers present in the galaxy could stop him.

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Originally posted by DarthAnt66
DE Palpatine? Never.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
DE Palpatine? Never.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
DE Palpatine? Never.

the sidious > luke counterculture is here it seems

Well once I crush Azronger we'll see

Depends on your arguments, yeah.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
the sidious > luke counterculture is here it seems

Well once I crush Azronger we'll see

Bring it on

Wait did Luke develop shatterpoint in legends?

Another good one that can take no morals peak Luke is peak Anakin.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
the sidious > luke counterculture is here it seems

Well once I crush Azronger we'll see

> Be Ellimist

> The Circumstances in Kylo Ren vs Finn excuse Ren's sub-stormtrooper level performance... he much more powerful than Shaak Ti in a normal setting

> The circumstances in Luke's battle with Palpatine are negligible... He easily overcame the gap because reasons

lol you're welcome to actually respond in the thread we were debating that in, you can't say "I'm aware of Finn's circumstances, oh but then for the rest of my lost I'll just ignore them for no reason".

Dark Empire barring Force Storm.

It's become "cool" to say Luke never surpassed Sidious, even though Luke at his best is clearly above Palpatine.

Little cringy but w.e

ROTJ is his Prime according to Hamill so then.

That's in canon, lol.

And the opinions of voice actors isn't canon.

I am not convinced that Luke Skywalker is above Palpatine (DE).

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
That's in canon, lol.

And the opinions of voice actors isn't canon.
I. Wasn't. Being. Serious.

Dark Empire Luke took on a bloodlusted Palpatine on neutral ground and cut off his arm, putting him at saber point. Only reason why Palps didn't lose right then and there was him activating his Force storm, which in turn made him a Force nexus unleashed.

One argument is that Leia used Battle meditation during the duel, but not only is that not said (people who say the blue aura around her indicates that's BM are reaching tbh) but the audio drama makes it clear that Leia only used BM during the Force storm, the idea iirc pops up when they're discussing the Storm. Heck, she couldn't even see or make out Palps and Lukes duel, at best sensing the light and Dark side battling it out.

Palpatine taking down Luke on Byss easily is because Byss is a DS nexus, specifically his. He even says Luke can't beat him because they're on Byss. Byss is potent enough to possibly be "the Dark Center of the Universe" so it's a massive boost for Palps while a massive hindrance on Lukes powers as well, which was also evidently shown.

Haven't read DE II in a while, so can't comment on how people use Sedriss QL as a rebuttal.

Empire's End I skimmed, but when Luke met Palpatine again it was with Han in the exact moment Han shot Palpatine so their couldn't be a proper duel. But, all Jedi ever needing to drag Palps is a good indicator for Palps, but I think that can be seen as similar to how he becomes a Force Nexus activating Force Storm. His "true self" is much more powerful.