THE END of the movie

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apple

Reep
If the matrix was reloaded as the real world, then how did the people who were not plugged in at the time of the reloading make the jump? Also, what makes you think Zion was already destroyed?

apple
Good points. I think the people who were not plugged in at the time are agents in the new Matrix.
What regards to Zion.. well, I think, in the end, someone said that the man lying beside Neo was the only survivor of the Zion destruction.

UofMguy
I thought the man lying next to Neo(Smith in humans body) was the only survivor of the planned counter strike of the machine at the perometer or whatever.

I believe that the machines haven't reached Zion yet and that Smith sabtoaged the counterstrike.

maul's woman
OR....

It is Smith who will destroy Zion.

Question: Who was the "implant" going to kill? Was it really Neo? Was it actually going to assassinate Morpheus? Is it Morpheus who is the rogue program and that Neo was "sent" to flush him out and the "implant" Smith in desguise there to kill him. Shut him down so to speak. That would be the end and the Matrix would reset itself, flushing all the rogue programs and obsolete human baggage and Reload itself with a fresh crop. In the process start Zion all over again along with other "colonies" of humans around the globe.

This would be the Revolution. Revolving. Evolving. In order for the Matrix A.I. to Evolve it has to flush its systems and Reload and start another cycle of symbiotic human crops. big grin

apple

zimbo
There's moment in the movie where zion is shown with hundreds of sentinels in it, and the place where machines started to dig deeper underground

Higgypop
Very very interesting stuff!
I would love to know the answer but I don't think we're gunna.
I don't think there were ever 2 matrix or Neo would have noticed before but they must still be pluged in, we didn't see them leave for one.
May be all the humans in Zion have been picked up and reinserted, may be Neo etc have been reinserted themselves, they would still now how to bend the rules once reinserted.

maul's woman
The Sentinels... phages tearing down the old and making way for the new. Making way for the Reload. All those plugged in has to "told" that Zion is dead and that humanity has to start over again from the ashes of the destruction. In reality the system is purging used up human bodies and replacing them with fresh ones. Reloading.

An entire systems reloading and reset. That would also include scrapping useless intelligence programs for a more evolved writing. big grin

When I said that the Matrix spans several dimensional levels I don't mean an alternate Matrix... I mean't the SAME A.I. spanning several realities in real time and in the Matrix generated time/space reality.

apple

Ushgarak
Why do so many people think that Zion has already been destroyed? The film makes it abundantly clear that it has now happened yet.

paulgrimes
I do not believe in the Matrix in a Matrix possiblity. I believe that the reason the machines went down is because the other ship sent a pulse. I also believe that Neo is actually a Machine. He is unaware of this, but it explains how he has his powers, can see the future, and can hear the other drones. In the first Matrix, Neo was technicaly dead when his ship sent a pulse which is why he was not effected by it.

maul's woman
Just as an endgame Ushgarak. The endgame is the regeneration of the human community and final reloading of new and more advanced A.I. programming. But to the humans it would look like a massacre and the breeding anew of the human flock.

Well Apple, from what I understand, we get old we also get cold. Why do you think so many old people wear sweaters and jackets when it isn't that cool out. There are other bio-function attributed with aging and getting old that impairs the functions of the A.I. systems in general. You don't have to wait for the battery to be totally used up with the needle at zero in order to throw it away. Humans live roughly 80 years (give or take). A.I. would prefer getting younger body for the better energy output. Diseased bodies would act the same as old bodies and they are cast out and fresher ones are put in.

There is also another thought... A.I. has jump up the human species to a more advanced physical level. A body/energy output evolution. The distruction of Zion may be because there is a "new" human model being harvested. big grin Able to produce higher energy output and longer. big grin

Higgypop
The one thing the confuses me about the whole thing, why bother with such an elaporate system, why not just keep humans in a perptual sleep and use there energy, they would have to kill humans off early then through deaths in the matrix and they'd be able to live out their whole lives and maximise the energy that the machines get from them.

zimbo
What kind of movie would be that?!!!

Higgypop
True true

Ushgarak
If they could just use comatose humans they could probably just use organic slabs or cattle. It seems to be a fundamental point of the film that for the process to work they need humans with properly active brains and for that the brains need the stimulation ofa proper life.

Higgypop
Anyway, sorry, I dragged us off the point there.
Back to the end....

turin
In the trailer for the revolutions it is said they have 24 hours till the destruction of zion.

atomicbits
Agreed ! Zion is not destroyed at the end of "Reloaded" only the humans trying to intercept the sentinels were killed. The only survive was Bane ( the human occupied by Smith ) As for how Neo stopped the attacking sentinels, what he did looked a lot like an ECM and then he fell into a coma. If you recall, bane was responsible for a lot of the human loss with an early ECM. Coincidence ? Hmmmm...

I think Bane/Smith and Neo are connected in some way.

maul's woman
No no! Higgypop that is a very very good question! The reason why such an elaborate system is being used is because the brain never sleeps. The unconscious brain is always active. Working. Seeing. Hearing. It never shuts down except after a substantial period after death. The A.I. knows this and that shutting down the brain will kill the body. Useless to the technology.

The best question to ask is that why couldn't the A.I. correct the atmospheric environment that cut off the sun which is what the humans did during the conflict with the A.I.? Why couldn't it restore the atmosphere to what it was being that it initially ran off solar energy to a great degree?

apple

zimbo
Zion will be destroyed anyway but if neo would get to the mainframe, later he would get chance to choose 23 people from matrix to rebuild the Zion

Ushgarak
Some people have some REAL odd ideas about Zion being destroyed. It's nothing to do with what Neo does in the Matrix at all. Zion is destroyed simply when the machines reach it which has not happened yet but would be the same REGARDLESS of what Neo did.

trav17420
"You know, the Matrix was originally designed to be a perfect world. Where everyone would be happy...it was a disaster, entire crops were lost." Oh my, a matrix gone wrong...a disaster...

I just got done seeing The Matrix (1) again and that line hit me. I hope to god it's not a Matrix in a Matrix because thats just horribly gay (The Matrix Revolutions - FLOOR 13). Seems plausible though...

turin
right, and in the preview they say that they have 24 hours till the machines reach zion. now neo reaching the main frame to reboot the matrix can take place any time relative to the destruction of zion, before or after it doesnt matter. all that matters is that it is done.

maul's woman
True... 24 hours is what the Architect told Neo. But not even A.I. knows the individual mind totally. There is always the element of surprise that all humans have. Always that random element in our thinking pattern that comes "out of left field". The one thing the Architect did know was that he was in love with Trinity and because of that love he would choose to exit through the door... stage left. big grin

Anyway, remember that all advanced computer systems have "firewalls" Neo may have been in the mainframe itself and didn't know it. He may have been sitting right in front of it and wouldn't know it. The Architect may be that firewall. The destruction of Zion suits the purpose of the A.I. and its survival. The whole darn thing will be started up again with the renewed breeding of newer humans and possibly a genetic code sequence modification.

As for the sun pouring down on earth unfiltered... I don't think that is the problem. That would be a problem for corporal life but not for the A.I. Remember it was the humans that destroyed the sky. Humans destroyed the sky creating a perpetual darkness and winter because it cut off the A.I. power source... the sun. It was chiefly solar powered. But the A.I. outsmarted the humans and over the year devised a way to subjugate them and turn them all into D batteries. Now that is some wicked technological move.

apple
So what is the main purpose for reloading the Matrix?
There has been 6 Matrix. Why they are always reloading or rebooting it?
Is it to clean the program from all those anomalities (rebel programs)and virus (like agent Smith)? To start a clean world?

zimbo
......till it will get durty again,
e I think you're write,I'm not sure my self

zimbo
I ment 'wright'

maul's woman
You got it Apple. All computers are upgraded and/or backed up. Occasionally, corporate mainframes are defragged and so forth. With something as MASSIVE as the Matrix A.I. this may be necessary every few years or more.

Look at Smith! He has become a virus! What we saw was a viral amplification. Actually to be more accurate on this symbiotic level, Smith became cancerous. Just like a cancer cell he began to "willingly" and out of control of the Matrix pure functions, divide and multiply. Cancerous cells multiply out of control and with odd numerical divisions. Smith became this viral/cancerous thing.

Man_Childe
The subject of why use a Matrix at all.
I've talked to some bio majors on this one cause it confused me as well. This was the answer they gave me take it as you will.
The human brain is the most advanced brain on the planet. It generates a good amount of electricity. In order to generate the optimum amount of electricity it needs stimulation. Hence humans sleeping and dreaming would not be as efficient as utilizing a fully stimulated brain, nor would using other animals in out stead. Humans have to be in a concious state in order to be useful to the Matrix.

the baldy man
At the end of the Movie, Neo says "something's different - I can feel them" about the Sentinels. Then he goes on to stop them just like he can with bullets inside the Matrix. To me, this suggests one of the following:

1. The world "outside the Matrix", i.e. the tunnels, Zion, everything that (up to now) we thought was "Real" is actually some sort of additional part of the Matrix / another layer / whatever....

Or...

2. Neo has gained some kind of real-world power as "The One" to be able to stop the Sentinels but the shock of this realisation was so great it knocked him into a coma.....

Or...

3. They've all been duped and the Matrix has tricked them into thinking they've jacked out after Neo saved Trinity but they're actually still in a "Reloaded" version that now includes a virtual world complete with a fake Zion / tunnel system / sentinels etc....

Finally, could it be possible that whilst both Neo and Smith/Bane appear to be unconscious that they are actually now disconnected from the system and in another "realm" which could be revealed in the final movie? Perhaps the scene of the fight between them that was hinted at in the trailer?

maul's woman
BaldyMan, that is basically in line with what I was saying about multilayered existance. The Matrix existing in a type of multiple continuum and that all those hooked into the system can and do experience these different levels consciously and unconsciously without actually realizing the continuum. Neo, Morpheus and the others who are in Zion are actually living "consciously" in another level of the A.I. existance in the time/space continuum. An intelligence that massive would have sought out and used that multidimensional planes of existance for its own survival. Humans can't really do that because we don't "believe" in it. Whereas the A.I. is not hampered by belief systems and other delusions.

That could be what Neo said about everything is "different". He is still jacked into the system like you said but is slowly becoming aware of the other levels of existence but all within the Matrix.

Excellent analysis Baldy. big grin

maul's woman
Hey Man Child! That is what another user was saying. I concur! Unless the brain is fully awake and the mind tricked into accepting what it is seeing as truly "reality", it would not be able to cope and generate the needed BTUs needed by the great machine.

Besides, it's not just the brain generating electrical signals, but the entire body generates energy and heat. The Hypotalamus (sp?) regulates this. And then there is metabolism that also helps generate energy. So being that nothing grows, the human is fed other humans who have been liquified. Nothing is wasted. Energy to substance and then back to energy again. Total recyclization.

Man_Childe
Yes and if you have a large sum of batteries, say a few billion, and those batteries have the ability to destroy each other in a virtual reality you would want to control that right? If those Batteries have a war you could in theory loose a substatial portion of power output. Hence the unbalenced equation that the archetect could not remove, but could be controlled. Choice.

maul's woman
That is what we (the humans) are allowed to believe. That belief is fostered and amplified by the A.I. It controls human destiny which is it's destiny. Smith said in the 1st movie that many humans died when they were given the perfect world of the Matrix "utopia". The humans could not accept utopia and that they thrived off of misery, pain and chaos. The humans are chaos. Smith called humans a virus... an entity that lives outside the cohesion of a colony; or a colony psyche. Humans have destroyed the earth and life on it just like an extremely lethal virus would destroy it's host. But with the A.I. humans have become a virus living within a host in a symbiotic relationship. Non-lethal. The A.I. became the natural host. So when the A.I. presented the humans with death and destruction through the sentinels and agents, it presented humans with a condition of existance that is appropriate for the continuation of a healthy mental state of humans. big grin Therefore! The power output remains optimum.

Swedenborg
Those would seem to be the options...

Sincerely hope it's not the second one. Neo is too powerful as it is *L* wink

I hope it's the first one, but could settle with the third *L*

But we can't know, can we? Maybe after Revolutions.

The Oracle said something along the lines that everything/everyone were programs. If that is true, it'd seem meaningless to talk about a "real" world (outside the Matrix.) That's why I hope it's the first option.

Man_Childe
I can understand humans not being able to truly understand perfection, I think that would cause insanity in most people if they were placed in that situation. The AI presenting 250,000 "aware" humans with the prospect of death and destruction "for their sanity" while the other several billion are oblivious to what is happening doesn't click though. If you are going to destroy them anyway, why let them go to waste in Zion when you can liquify them as food for the other billion.

Ushgarak
Aside from it being a dreadful idea, all conversations about whether the real world is a Matrix belong in the specified thread about whether there is more than one or not.

More to the point, as the computer game apparently gives the fourth (and so therefore canon) reason for it all- that part of neo is still in the Matrix, connected to the Source, and so can affect the Sentinels- to try and make out those are the only three possibilities is rather void.

maul's woman
But that is one idea in the Computer Game. There are things in the computer game that will not reach the movies. It is there way of keeping everything separate. It's the same with franchises like STAR WARS and STAR TREK. The books and stuff are separate storylines from the movie and the real story is only with the movie. I think that is what the producers are doing with MATRIX movies and the computer games.

What the Oracle said furthers my belief that Neo part of that multilayered existance.

Man Child, the A.I. cannot discredit or disregard the reality syndrome for humans. Simply growing them, liquifying them for food for functioning humans is not enough. Those humans will die quickly because the body cannot function without a functioning mind. So this elaborate system was devised by it to keep the "crop" alive and "functioning" for a long time.

For the humans and their yen for struggle and destruction, the Zion scenario is perfect. It works and in the end is extremely beneficial for the A.I.

Ushgarak
No, Maul's Woman, you are wrong. The computer game is not like the non-canonical ones of other licenses. It is actually part of the ACTUAL plot, filmed at the same time as the film, and written by the brothers themselves. They say it is fully canonical and part of continuity. What it says is so.

Your belief that the Oracle and Architect's words suggest a multi-layered existence will, I suspect, remain your opinion and not that of many others.

Too many people needlessly overcomplicate what is actually quite a simple thing.

Man_Childe
I can understand that, but I cannot understand why what less than 1 percent of the entire crop has to do with the other portion that is happy with the Matrix as is. It would be best to liquify it and feed to the rest of the crop that is happy with things as they are. letting that smal group play out its desires outside of the matrix makes little sense, being outside the Matrix produces no power for the AI.

Ushgarak
The AI's can not identify which is which so that does not work.

They HAVE to exercise their choice to be removed- the system ONLY works if that choice is there, remember?

Swedenborg
It'd be good if users could move their posts to relevant threads then wink (Perhaps have a button along with every post (like the "edit", "quote" etc.), which you press and then select destination thread.)

Especially for a "newbie" like me =P Don't know where everything belongs *L*

Man_Childe
If the humans are in a Matrix run by the AI it would only make sense that the AI knows exactly who's who. And yes they do have to exercise free will, and right after the human makes a consious decision to leave the Matrix it should be located and liquified, after all a human with atrophied muscles isn't going to leave his pod.

maul's woman
Oh that's all right Ushgarak! I am throwing out possibilities. Tickle the ol' noodle as they say. But things can change. Not written in stone, so to speak. Or the computer chip. big grin Anyway, I don't play computer games. But I love reading. So until I see REVOLUTIONS, which I will take as gospel, I will speculate reasons and rationale. More fun.

Well, Man Child, you never know. That could be what the producers have in mind as the end. The great machine feeding deviate human drones and programs to the happy ones. The one's who don't want "reality" but would rather the make believe world created by the A.I. Remember Palantino's character? He said it would have been better to have taken the blue pill. Then he bargained with the agents to reinsert his body after he betrays Morpheus. Not everyone enjoys reality. Look at our own REAL world. More and more of us are "bugging out" everyday. WHOA!

Man_Childe
True, I apologize if it seemed as though I was attacking you, wasn't my intention, but I realized that it might have seemed that way. I am still trying to make some sense out of the ending. Maybe its an ending within an ending smile

maul's woman
No not at all. Don't even think of it that way. The analysis is very good.

You may be very correct... an ending within an ending. Like a dream within a dream. Horrible. Knowing that things are "just not right" but you can't really put your finger on it. And then when you wake up on one level, you find that you are STILL asleep on the levels above you. That is... if you can reason that far while still plugged in. :O

big grin

Sounds like something out of the TWILIGHT ZONE or the OUTER LIMITS. LOL!!!

apple

Man_Childe
That is exactly how the movie felt. Like I was on the verge of being enlightened to it but never quite achieving that nirvana. If the Wachoisky brothers intended that then they did a very good job.

maul's woman
That the real beauty of the second movie. We woke up from the simple beauty of the first to the unimaginable layers of the second. ack!!! I love the first film. It was the foundation. The second film is the meat. Maybe the last film is the desert. big grin

I haven't heard or read anything suggesting that the brothers wrote a trilogy. Sometimes I think its best to keep things to oneself and not spill all the beans. If they told us everything we would not be able to think up all these fantastic scenarios. big grin so... speculate away dear Apple. big grin

apple

Chaos
May I ask what the hell has Cypher got to do with this? You see a little look at him right at the very end and I have no clue what it means sad

Ja, nice point Apple wink
The last part of your body to die is your brain (I think roll eyes (sarcastic) ) so maybe she wasnt completely dead? embarrasment
Neo was saying 'I know you can hear me'

Happy Dance Happy Dance

maul's woman
Ah Cypher! Well Chaos, I heard that he appears in the end. I going to see the movie again anyway so I will look for him. big grin Palantino did say something about Cypher coming back in RELOADED when the first movie came out. Interesting. smile

Apple it makes sense. Maybe this is something that Neo discovered but did not articulate. What if he "knows" that everyone is still plugged in but has not fully accepted it yet. The prophesy is a lie he says. He's taking the Trickster at his word in this regard. So when Trinity "died" in his dreams and in the Matrix he most likely realized that she "lives" still in the multilevels of the Matrix existence. The Trickster told him the truth that he had to choose several pairs of humans. Neo had Trinity. She is his counterpart for the continuation of the humans. She is his mate and he will choose a number of other men and women who are to mate and replenish the supply of humans on their particular level of existence.

Chaos
Hmm... Look here
http://forums.killermovies.com/f42/t6304.html

JustinDay says that is Agent Smith in Cyphers body... But how Smith is just a program!?
Unless he is wrong roll eyes (sarcastic)

Or... there is actually 2 matrixs' eek!

maul's woman
He is now a rogue program. Almost like a virus. As described by the Oracle. Seeing ghosts, vampires, werewolves... all rogue and old programs. Cypher would fit that description and if it is true that Smith took him over then it bears out what the Oracle said to Neo. Neo will meet up with Cypher.

Chaos
Ohhh.. thats bad wink

maul's woman
VERY BAD!!

Chaos
LoL... Okie guess i'm just uppin my post count laughing out loud

Thanks anyway big grin

maul's woman
Keep going. This is good.

What do you think Neo would do if he did confront Cypher? If it is Cypher. Plus that would mean that not only Bane was accessed by the Smith Virus, but a number of individuals were.

Chaos
Neo would **** the ***** up big grin
Ermm...
Are you a woman ? :P

mla121
What about before Neo meets the architect, before the zoom out of what looks to be stars into the room. Now this might have been mentioned already (I haven't seen it tho)- Could it be that there are Matrix's on other worlds. Surely there is some meaning for it.

maul's woman
Watch your language.

Nick33559
Having Cypher in fact be one of Agent Smith's infections would be a good way to tie the plot from the first movie to the second and third ones. However, it represents a logical leap in that a part of the matrix program must enter the psyche of the person while he/she is plugged into the matrix and then continue on after that person is disconnected and returns to the "real" world (I put real in quotes since there is some skepticism as to whether the unplugged world is in fact reality). I believe this leap is established in the second movie and is a good explanation for Cypher's deviation in the original matrix.

Nick33559
P.S. I agree with Maul that profane exclamations contribute very little to the dialogue and are better suited to another forum

Ushgarak
Whoa there!

First of all, yes, the brothers did always plan this as a trilogy, but so did GL with Star Wars and he radically changed the plot as he went along so whether they had all this planned is unknown.

Secondly, Joe Pantoliano was in negotiations to be in the new films but asked for too much money and lost the part, which he talks quite amusingly about (as opposed to Marcus Chong who pulled guns on people, apparently). He did the Sopranos instead, which he was very good in, but sadly we will miss his neatly cynical presence and whatever means would have been his return, in either of these films

the baldy man
I may be wrong (and I probably am) but why the references to Cypher? I thought the guy laying unconscious next to Neo was in fact Bane who we are led to assume has been imprinted by Smith... Or did I miss something?

Ushgarak
Yeah, it was Bane.

Chaos
hmmm ok... sorry about the launguage roll eyes (sarcastic)

Icharus
Howz about this -

When Neo defeated the sentinals, it seemed like there were blue sparks...... kinda like an EMP. Smith set off an EMP possibly at the same time during the attempted 'counter strike'. Could it be that the link some how generated an EMP? Or just that the EMP was close enough to affect the machines - Neo and Smith/Bane???

Coincidence? I think not.

UofMguy
yeah where is this cypher talk coming from? I'm pretty sure it was Bane, goatee guy, next to Neo at the end like baldy and Ush mentioned.

UofMguy
oh and chalk me up for theory #2. Neo is discovering new powers, b/c he is going to need them vs Smith in revolutions. Plus their is an army of machines coming that would/will surely destroy Zion rather easily.

BEST TRINITY
I think it was Smith into Cypher in M1 too. Like with Bane. That explain how he could get in to the matrix without someone who unplugged him when he returns to the Nab.

apple

Ushgarak
Becuase, as the Architect explained, if Neo does not return to the Source and help fix the Matrix it will crash and all the humans in it will die. And so when Zion falls the whole human race will be extinct.

He did not do this, he went to help Trinity instead.

apple

BEST TRINITY
SOMEONE SAID IN OTHER THREAD THAT IN ETM GAME NEO TOUCHED THE SOURCE AND HES MIND GOT SEPARETLY FROM HIS BODY AND NOW HES TRAP BETWEEN THE MATRIX AND THE REALWORL (or something like that)??

apple
How is that possible? He has his real body and his real mind in the real world. How can the Matrix catch his mind and separate it from the body? I hope that doesnt happen because will turn the trilogy into a really ordinary thing.

Ushgarak
It HAS happened, that is the official plot. You may note he is in a coma at the end, Apple, which seems to round out the 'seperated mind' thing.
And the Matrix always COULD seperate mind from body. You did it every time you went in.

maul's woman
Interesting.

Yes Cypher did ask to be reinserted. The question is, how? When he spoke to the agents it was while he was linked into the Matrix through the cranial plug. Why would the Matrix allow itself to be hacked into from the outside world. That would mean that the computer system the "free" humans use would also be part of the A.I. itself.

The End??? I believe the end will be that no one was ever free to begin with. That ALL the humans are still jacked into Matrix and this is the life-reality that the A.I. have given them to give their unconscious mind purpose in order to keep their bodies functioning to create the needed "life-engery" the big machine needs to function.

apple

Ushgarak
You may as well ask how Neo can re-construct a mind that has died or how he can have prophetic dreams about the Matrix whilst in the REAL world. There is just weird stuff happenin in these films, that is the way it is.

mac11586
I think i know why neo can control machines outside of the matrix and have his dreams and other wierd things.

Being the one, neo somehow has the power to inprint his code on things. This code gives these things some his powers. Almost like how internet sites leave cookies on your computers. something like that.

1. In the first movie when neo "kills" smith he goes inside of him and blows him up. I believe neo inprinted a bit of himself on smith and that is whe he didn't die. In fact smith hints at this saying that neo changed him and he dosen't know how. That is also why smith can replicate himself. He has a bit of neo's powers.

2. Neo has left a bit of himself in the matrix. This is why he can have the dreams outside the matrix. He like the oracle sees where the matrix is going, although he might not know it. He has made his choice already. When he tells the oracle he sees a door with light then sees trinity. He as made his choice.

3. Neo can control the squids because after going to the source he has left a bit of himself there too. Now a little neo is in the machine mainframe. That is why something is "diffrent" He knew they were coming and could give them a kill comand in the machine mainframe. The shock of doing this put him in a coma.

This is what i think they were getting at. But who knows this movie could be going anywhere.

maul's woman
Sorry scrap that. Read your post incorrectly. Long weekend.

Man_Childe
mac11586 - I think that is the best explaination I have heard thus far. I am not certain as to how Neo could communicate with the mainframe without being in the Matrix, but it is still the best eplaination I have heard.

maul's woman
Question: How did the Oracle contact Neo that she wanted to see him?

Man_Childe
E-mail? To be honest I don't think that was addressed in the movie.

maul's woman
It was. He was given something that looked like a machine part. How did she get that delivered to him?

It may explain in conjunction with what Mac was saying in #2 of his post.

Man_Childe
Oh yeah, that's right. Good question. Afraid I still don't have an answer though.

IJWTL

maul's woman
It only brings to mind on how did the Matrix track down Neo and the others in the "real" world. That is why I feel that the end will be that where all the humans are STILL in the Matrix immersed in the dream within a dream of being free. Humans in the end have always been a totally vanquished species under the total and absolute control of the big machine.

mac11586
That question is easy enough to answer.

i'd bet the same way you can trace a cell phone call. Rember the rebels our broadcasting signals to jack into the matrix. Like when i check my short mail on my phone. I send out a short electonic burst. Im sure after years of doing this the machines have become pretty good at finding the ships. Especially if they have been in the matrix for a while or they are doing extraordinary things. There signals would be longer and stronger. And much easier to trace.

maul's woman
Looking at it closely its almost like a unconscious symbiotic cooperation with the big machine without them even realizing they are cooperating with it. Like the A.I. is stringing all the humans along with special interest of its own in Neo and Morpheus.

mac11586
i can agree with that,

I think in the end we will find that mankinds next step in evoultion will be a symbiotic one with machines. Something like neo or smith. Remeber his conversation in the zion with the head dude. We need the macnhines to live and they need us. Again in the white room he tells the arch. that they need humans.

maul's woman
As a power source primarily. But probably also for the psychological stimulous as well. Evolution together as a single entity. The humans are not sure of the total scope of the A.I. and not sure of how wide spread the A.I. actually reaches. Remember Neo walking through the door of light? It changed from the blinding white light to becoming the double helix. Then from the double helix to becoming stars. Then the stars because the multi tv screen room with the Architect sitting in its center. Is it only on Earth or did all that represent the universe in microcosm with the Architect as the gatekeeper?

The end is looking more and more like the revelation as the A.I. and Neo becoming one mind, but with teh rest of humanity firmly held in the clutches of the A.I.

Ushgarak
How the Oracle contacted Neo is obvious. Ballard brought a message from her that looked like somwething in the Matrix World and was downloaded onto hard form in the real world when he got out.

maul's woman
Ah an invitation indeed. big grin How would it be downloaded? Can't be directly into Zion's mainframe. I would have taken no effort for the A.I. to crash Zion's system. How did it do it?

Ushgarak
It was downloaded onto Ballard's ship, dah!

Same way Niobe picked up Thaddeus' data drop from the Osiris.

maul's woman
Dah? No. The ships themselves are still connected to Zion's mainframe.

Ushgarak
Dah, YES, Ballard's ship stayed behind OUT of Zion to wait for a message from the Oracle, remember?

maul's woman
Dah? No. big grin Yes it did. But the A.I. got that info to the ship. Why? Especially when it could have easily contacted Neo through the mainframe at Zion. Toying with the humans.

Ushgarak
No, you see, you SAY it could have done that. But the MOVIE tells us that someone has to wait behind to receive a message from the Oracle. This is a canonical fact and it is VERY arrogant of you to assume you know better.

You can ONLY get a message from the Oracle if connected to the Matrix. Zion is NOT connected to the Matrix in any way! Ballard's ship had to stay behind, connected, to receive that message. He did., and then brought it to Neo.

VERY simple. No need for complication. Understand?

masterofmatrix
can anyone tell me how to get in to matrix reloaded

maul's woman
Zion doesn't have to be connected to the Matrix for the A.I. to get into the system. Commandeering broadcasts is one way for it to get inside.

But the A.I. is connected to it. The sheer fact that the "free" humans can uplink and get inside the Matrix itself is an indication. That is why I say that none of the "free" humans are free. They are still patched into the system and very snug within their pods. A world within a world within a world within a dream. Fly paper from which there is no escape.

Ushgarak
You seem to have completely changed the subject to get away from the fact you were mistaken...

Well, clearly the AIs have never managed to get into Zion so clearly your commandeering idea is not possible. Else the Oracle WOULD have used it.

The free world is real enough. And the machines have miscalculated. If Zion holds, then they are screwed because the Matrix is going to self-destruct.

mac11586
along that same line if the A.I. could just go stright to zion like that why would Smith be asking for codes to Zion's mainframe in the first movie. The ships have no direct connection to Zion. IN fact why wouldn't they do that instead of sending all of thoughs squidys and rsik loosing an open war. It makes no logical sense and machines are all for logic.

BEST TRINITY
Yes i posted that thought in other thread. Why he asked for the codes?? If Zion is on the Matrix.

maul's woman
Because it wouldn't be a true "open war". There has never been a true open war. The prime directive as we know it... keep the human bodies alive and healthy within for the system's usage. Make the make-believe world as real to the mind as possible to keep the bodies functional. The billions of humans can sustain it for whatever real function it actual has where the other power sources are also utilized. But the other power sources are not intelligent. They are just raw power. It needs the human mind and ability to go beyond logic to augment the A.I.'s own evolution. I think the Zion mainframe IS the A.I. The humans are just not aware of it. At the moment. Neo is getting closer because now the A.I. "sees" his mind and its workings. He will be absorbed for its own growth and evolution. big grin

Ushgarak
Silly, silly, silly...

BEST TRINITY
I think it will be something about hes eyes. coz he is blinfolded

maul's woman
It maybe "silly" but it is GREAT!!! Why do you think its silly? big grin As intricate as the story is. big grin

maul's woman
Have you ever heard of the "electron theory" of the Universe? I think it applies here. smile

BEST TRINITY
Neos in the Ones in Matrix and Real World its true i cant sleep well. Im always thinking on him

GordonSkywalker
Whoa two posters with the same avatar-cool.

BEST TRINITY
What???

GordonSkywalker
Cool avatars!

BEST TRINITY
ohhhhhhh thanks. thats my real personality!!!!!!!!!

GordonSkywalker
It is an awesome personality!

BEST TRINITY
TY

GordonSkywalker
U R Welcome. I know so little about this movie and would love to know more.

BEST TRINITY
Well ask us i just saw M1 about 50 times and M2 about four times,

GordonSkywalker
So is this an actual trilogy with the final film coming later this year? And the lead actor is like a chosen one or something? And he is supposed to save the people of earth from a false reality?

yerssot
perhaps you should watch it now wink

BEST TRINITY
Yes he is

GordonSkywalker
I might get the first one one. So who is Morpheus? Is he like what Yoda and Mace are in Star Wars? Who is Trinity and how does she meet the Reeves character-and what is his name?

BEST TRINITY
You have to see M1 again and again. Coz quote: "no one cant tell what the matrix is you have to see it by yourself"

GordonSkywalker
OK. Fair enough. Thanks.

BEST TRINITY
ok

zeppelin flower
how do u make the lil pic under ur name? im new at this and i would really REALLY like to have one

-also, nice quote

BEST TRINITY
when you sign in (profile) you have to choose an avatar

zeppelin flower
oh, thanks
smile

carlosluis
I have another theory that's a variation of one of the already posted.
I think that there's a nested matrix. This means that zion and all of the "really human stuff" is actually the real matrix and what we consider (I mean we, the audience) the matrix it's just a diversion to keep people busy, never realizing that they're actually pluged while they think they're free. This could explain why Neo had his powers outside the ship.

I'm sure that this lets a lot of holes to fill on other things so I'll read to see which ones you post

turin
well, if that was the case, why doesnt Bane now look like Smith? or why doesnt Neo see the code of the Zion matrix (Neo doesnt see things like we do when in the matrix. all his visualization is code, the green writting going down the screen)

systematicevil
if it is true, then maybe smith doesnt realize that he is still plugged in and he looks like bane due to a sort of backwards "residual self image"

GordonSkywalker
I have changed my mind about this whole matrix thing. I am not getting it on VHS after all.

cookies2006
And why is that? I just got the animatrix today.

GordonSkywalker
Long story but let us say personal reasons my young friend.

cookies2006
Oh, sorry. Didnt mean to intrude.

GordonSkywalker
No it is not an intrusion when one's student is speaking to him.

cookies2006
No, i know that, but i dont know any more. I justed totaly blanked out.

GordonSkywalker
Happens to me all the time. Just go with the proberbial flow.

maul's woman
Nobody answered my question about the "Electron Theory of the Universe." smile It is appropos to this THE END thread.

BEST TRINITY
Maybe Bane is Smith in the real world

maul's woman
They are not.

BEST TRINITY
Maybe Bane was awake and he was Smith programs in M1. And when Neo destroyed him. He was freed in the matrix and in the real world. then they woke him in the real world and doesnt know he was Smith in M

maul's woman
There is the question of whether or not it is actually "the real world". That is why I asked the question about the Electron Theory of the Universe... the world within a world within a world. Or in the case of MATRIX... the world within a dream within a dream within a dream... How far up the chain is the actual real world. Smith is crossing dimensions within the Matrix.

BEST TRINITY
OK explain ur theory clearly

maul's woman
The electron theory means that within our universe there are galaxies, quasars, stars, planets and moons and life throughout. But also within the matter that makes up our universe on the subatomic level there is electrons, neutrons, protons, etc. Within those particles of matter are there are also universes. Within the electron and much too small for us to see there are galaxies, quasars, stars, planets, moons, and life through out and within them there are electrons, neutrons, protons, etc. etc. etc. Where within THEM are even tinier universes etc. etc. getting smaller and smaller reaching into infinity.

The reverse is true. That our universe is nothing more than a closed system within an subatomic particle like an electron that is part of an even larger universe we can NEVER see.

Mindboggling.

But I proposed the same for the Matrix in the sense that it has created a world within a world within a world, within a dream for the humans to keep them forever subjugated to the mainframe and the big machine.

maul's woman
BTW... it is not my theory. I heard it many years ago and it stayed with me. big grin

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