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I know most people believe Plagueis to be superior, but I'm not so sure and I haven't seen anything to persuade me. Discuss.

Plagueis given his speed feats, Banite scaling, accolades, and standing in comparison with TPM Sheev.

What speed feats does Plagueis have?
Vader killed Roan Lands before Ferus Olin could even react:
"It happened before he could get out another word. Faster than an eyeblink. Faster than he'd seen anyone move, anyone except Yoda.
The lightsaber hadn't been there, and then it was, and the lightsaber was a blur. Vader moved without seeming to move, and the lightsaber sliced into Roan, straight into his chest. Straight into his heart."

Vader moves with even greater speed than Sidious (although it's likely Sidious was holding back at the time):
"With preternatural speed the Emperor drew, ignited, and slashed at the girl with his lightsaber, but Vader had sensed his Master's intent and moved with greater speed, igniting his own blade and intercepting his Master's blow before it could land."
(Both of these feats are well before his prime)

He's moved so fast that he appeared to have teleported, he's speedblitzed Jedi, etc.

In reference to your point about the banite scaling, I don't see how that has anything to do with Vader.

And just out of curiosity, is there a quote for the comparison of him to TPM Sidious?

Is this a joke?

No. I have yet to see any proof that Plagueis is the superior combatant.

Originally posted by Kurk
Is this a joke?

No, but this is http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=626505

Vader doesn't think he can defeat Palpatine on his own, and he doesn't seem to think that's going to change. TPM Sidious is about a decade older than prime Vader, so he should be more powerful, or Vader would have already been on the track to surpassing him. That same Sidious was wary of engaging with Plagueis.

Plagueis also just gives off the aura of being cosmologically stronger than Vader, given his unbalancing the Force, creating weather storms via his presence, mastering sorcery despite a lack of any talent for it through sheer willpower, etc. In terms of combat feats, he has punched through battle armor and disintegrated squads of armored soldiers with uncharged tk, deflected fire from hundreds of battle droids at once, etc. - but he faces people significantly weaker than Vader, so it's hard to judge from that only.

There's still the back blurb of the hardcover that pens him as the most powerful sith to his time in history.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Vader doesn't think he can defeat Palpatine on his own, and he doesn't seem to think that's going to change. TPM Sidious is about a decade older than prime Vader, so he should be more powerful, or Vader would have already been on the track to surpassing him. That same Sidious was wary of engaging with Plagueis.

Plagueis also just gives off the aura of being cosmologically stronger than Vader, given his unbalancing the Force, creating weather storms via his presence, mastering sorcery despite a lack of any talent for it through sheer willpower, etc. In terms of combat feats, he has punched through battle armor and disintegrated squads of armored soldiers with uncharged tk, deflected fire from hundreds of battle droids at once, etc. - but he faces people significantly weaker than Vader, so it's hard to judge from that only.

There's still the back blurb of the hardcover that pens him as the most powerful sith to his time in history.
Cosmologically, yeah, I agree that Plagueis is more powerful, but combatively I'm not so sure.
Vader has crushed skulls with his bare hands, pulverized heavily armored Lyleks with the force, defeated an army of 1,000 rebel soldiers singlehandedly, and he has more experience with lightsaber duels, killing many jedi, even defeating four jedi at once with relative ease.

Originally posted by Rebel95
Cosmologically, yeah, I agree that Plagueis is more powerful, but combatively I'm not so sure.

Palpatine seemed to think so. Luceno himself thought that Plagueis could potentially defeat him in a duel.



Plagueis has punched through armor.



Plagueis has vaporized half a dozen armored soldiers with uncharged TK.



You mean canon Vader?

Regardless, seeing as how Plagueis and Sidious waaaaay before their primes were disposing of hundreds of battle droids as training exercises, this probably isn't beyond Plagueis's ability.



Plagueis's skills with a blade were sufficient for him to apparently match Palpatine at the least. And Palpatine's consistent ability to utterly outclass Maul in every possible manner is a more impressive show of dominance than anything Vader's done.



Yeah, I think we'd both agree that Plagueis could do that as well.

Plagueis is stronger in the Force, and he apparently is technically skilled enough to be a match for Sidious, to deflect fire from hundreds of battle droids at once, fly through hundreds of warriors without even getting hit, etc. I think he beats Vader fairly handily - as in, the Vader vs. Plagueis gap is likely bigger than the Plagueis vs. peak Palpatine gap.

Originally posted by Rebel95
Cosmologically, yeah, I agree that Plagueis is more powerful, but combatively I'm not so sure.
Vader has crushed skulls with his bare hands, pulverized heavily armored Lyleks with the force, defeated an army of 1,000 rebel soldiers singlehandedly, and he has more experience with lightsaber duels, killing many jedi, even defeating four jedi at once with relative ease.
That Vader and this Plagueis don't even exist in the same continuity, so statements about their respective power matter a lot less than actual showings.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Palpatine seemed to think so. Luceno himself thought that Plagueis could potentially defeat him in a duel.
Since we're using Palpatine's opinions/statements: "Lord Vader, your skills are unmatched by any Sith before you. Go forth, my boy. Go forth, and bring peace to our Empire."

Originally posted by Rebel95
Since we're using Palpatine's opinions/statements: "Lord Vader, your skills are unmatched by any Sith before you. Go forth, my boy. Go forth, and bring peace to our Empire."

Ahh. I love Vader wank.

Me too

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Vader doesn't think he can defeat Palpatine on his own, and he doesn't seem to think that's going to change.
He doesn't think he can beat Palpatine long after TPM, and I'd assume Sheev had a substantial increase in power. Also, Palpatine is wary of Vader's potential:
"Somewhere in the back of Palpatine's mind, he knows what Vader's potential is. He feels he may be wrong, but he is wary of it. So he's very interested in determining his ability to manipulate Vader and testing his loyalty and assuring himself that this tiger that he holds by the tail is going to stay that way."
And this was during Lords of the Sith, well before Vader's prime.

Originally posted by Rebel95
Since we're using Palpatine's opinions/statements: "Lord Vader, your skills are unmatched by any Sith before you. Go forth, my boy. Go forth, and bring peace to our Empire."

No, I'm referring to Palpatine's (and Luceno's BTW) actual opinions as dictated by his actions and thoughts, not what he tells Vader to his face, lmao. Otherwise I guess he also loves democracy and the Republic.

Originally posted by Rebel95
He doesn't think he can beat Palpatine long after TPM, and I'd assume Sheev had a substantial increase in power.

Yes, but it's kind of a theme that Vader can no longer surpass Palpatine; TPM Palpatine is older than RotJ Vader, so if Vader were already ahead of him, this probably wouldn't have been true.



That's Canon, not Legends, and Legends Palpatine does at least initially think Vader's restrictions are psychological, not physical.

Plaguies would dominate cyborg Vader, Force lightning alone would easily take Vader down

Originally posted by The Ellimist
No, I'm referring to Palpatine's (and Luceno's BTW) actual opinions as dictated by his actions and thoughts, not what he tells Vader to his face, lmao. Otherwise I guess he also loves democracy and the Republic.



Yes, but it's kind of a theme that Vader can no longer surpass Palpatine; TPM Palpatine is older than RotJ Vader, so if Vader were already ahead of him, this probably wouldn't have been true.



That's Canon, not Legends, and Legends Palpatine does at least initially think Vader's restrictions are psychological, not physical.
Fair point.

Don't really understand what you're saying, could you explain?

Damn it's hard to keep track of what's canon and what's not, but if it's canon wouldn't that apply to legends as well since legends includes canon? It's all very confusing to me lol

Originally posted by relentless1
Plaguies would dominate cyborg Vader, Force lightning alone would easily take Vader down
Probably not considering Vader tanked Starkillers lighting. And this is assuming he can hit him with it.

Originally posted by Rebel95
if it's canon wouldn't that apply to legends as well since legends includes canon?

It can't really work that way any more. Canonically, there was only the OT for Vader material. There were lots of comics and shit like splinter of the mind's eye that took place in the EU, but all of that is erased when Disney started filling in the blanks between the movies.

Legends used to include canon, but now there's far too many inconsistencies (there always was, of course). They're very clearly two separate timelines now, and pretty much impossible to meld together.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
No, but this is http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=626505
Keep looking you'll find threads of mine that are much more ridiculous than that.

This logic may not work, but it's what I follow.

ROTJ Palpatine>ROTS palpatine

Vader=80% of ROTJ Palpatine

Plagueis>= TPM palpatine.

TPM Palpatine<ROTJ Palpatine.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
This logic may not work, but it's what I follow.

ROTJ Palpatine>ROTS palpatine

Vader=80% of ROTJ Palpatine

Plagueis>= TPM palpatine.

TPM Palpatine<ROTJ Palpatine.
So what's your conclusion

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Plagueis also just gives off the aura of being cosmologically stronger than Vader,
IMO, Darth Plagueis > Darth Vader

However, Darth Vader have some great feats going for him.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
given his unbalancing the Force,
This was not a solo achievement.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
creating weather storms via his presence,
This is open to debate. Some are not convinced that Darth Plagueis have a hand in this (skeptics include The_Tempest).

Originally posted by The Ellimist
mastering sorcery despite a lack of any talent for it through sheer willpower,
He didn't.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
etc. In terms of combat feats, he has punched through battle armor and disintegrated squads of armored soldiers with uncharged tk, deflected fire from hundreds of battle droids at once, etc. - but he faces people significantly weaker than Vader, so it's hard to judge from that only.
When did Darth Plagueis deflect firepower of hundreds of droids?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
There's still the back blurb of the hardcover that pens him as the most powerful sith to his time in history.
Right.

Darth Bane have a similar blurb to his name. Let us take it seriously too.

Originally posted by Rebel95
So what's your conclusion

Vader win.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Darth Bane have a similar blurb to his name. Let us take it seriously too.

I know english isn't your first language, but:

"If the dark side's most powerful master can capture the ultimate secret, the Sith will never die"

is significantly different than:

"Plagueis was the most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived."

Originally posted by Trocity
I know english isn't your first language, but:

"If the dark side's most powerful master can capture the ultimate secret, the Sith will never die"

is significantly different than:

"Plagueis was the most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived."
Both statements carry same message.

They don't, though.

Being "the dark side's most powerful master" doesn't necessarily imply 'ever' anymore than claiming to be "the world's strongest man" means you are the strongest in history, just in the present.