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I've begun to think that Anakin wins this.

1. Force
2. Sabers
3. All-out

(RotJ Vader)

Vader wins on the basis that he knows everything Anakin will use, has natural perfect knowledge on his way of thinking in a battle, will know about every plan Anakin can conceive, knows every smallest manner in which he does everything.

Power differences are irrelevant with that.

Originally posted by JKBart
Vader wins on the basis that he know everything Anakin will use, has natural perfect knowledge on his way of thinking in a battle, will know about every plan Anakin can conceive, knows every smallest manner in which he does everything.

Power differences are irrelevant with that.

The only thing that suggests Vader isn't superior to Anakin in all ways is your opinion.

Or the multiple characters, narrators, and fight choreographers that have called Anakin the most powerful Jedi in history, or his ability to utterly destroy Dooku while Vader had only a slight edge over an Obi Wan he himself called weaker than his RotS incarnation, or Anakin being repeatedly described as being in his "prime" without his suit, and Vader as being a shadow of his former self?

Tru dat

And the multiple characters, narrators, and Vader/Sidious' opinion that place Vader above Anakin are just invalid, because those don't support my point.

That's just simple science.

kill each other

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
And the multiple characters, narrators, and Vader/Sidious' opinion that place Vader above Anakin are just invalid,

You're welcome to show me where in Legends you can compile sources to match the statements of Mace Windu, Matthew Stover, Nick Gillard, and George Lucas.

Vader

Originally posted by The Ellimist
You're welcome to show me where in Legends you can compile sources to match the statements of Mace Windu, Matthew Stover, Nick Gillard, and George Lucas.
Feel free to show multiple sources that say Canon isn't default in this forum unless specified in the OP.

Vader sweeps.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Feel free to show multiple sources that say Canon isn't default in this forum unless specified in the OP.

Rules aside, I'm interested in Legends. Which should have been obvious given that the arguments I used were all Legends sources - well, that and the statements of Gillard and Lucas.

Well... that first statement is referring to Mustafar, hindered Lord Vader.
The second is a stronger connection, and strong connections don't always mean better overall.
The third is before Anakin's feats were a thing. Thank you for playing, try again.

Also Vader considers himself and Anakin to be different "people".

Originally posted by MythLord
The third is before Anakin's feats were a thing. Thank you for playing, try again.

kek, by the same "logic" the statements about Anakin were before Vader's feats

That doesn't support the point tho.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
kek, by the same "logic" the statements about Anakin were before Vader's feats
The problem is: Vader, by the time those statements were made, still had some feats. The RotJ novel statement is made while Anakin was only a concept. :/

Also, the fact that Vader seems to separate himself from Annie a lot.

Vader wins.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Also Vader considers himself and Anakin to be different "people". He also believes Anakin to be weak.

Legends: ROTJ Novel makes it clear Vader > Rots Anakin.

Disney Canon: LOTS makes it clear Vader > Rots Anakin.


Take your pick.

Lucas never cared for either of those 2 Continuitys btw. Lucas Canon would just be the first 6 films plus TCW series. But either way Lucas never said Anakin > Vader, only that he had more "potential" before getting cut into pieces:

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Legends: ROTJ Novel makes it clear Vader > Rots Anakin.


Vader considers Anakin a separate person.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
He also believes Anakin to be weak.

Emotionally and psychologically, yeah. He was pep talking the dark side, not making a statement about their comparative raw power, lmao.

Anakin has repeatedly been mentioned as either a candidate for or outright the most powerful Jedi in all of history - .ie, Yoda tier. Vader simply isn't on that level. He may be more refined in his mastery of the Force, but he isn't matching Skywalker in a duel.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Emotionally and psychologically, yeah. He was pep talking the dark side, not making a statement about their comparative raw power, lmao.Yes I'm sure it had nothing to do with power, which is irrelevant to Vader. And when he claimed to be more powerful than ever, was pretending that Anakin shtick never happened.Yet despite that, evidently never reached it, otherwise Yoda wouldn't have sent Kenobi after him while professing he was not strong enough to face a Yoda-tier opponent i.e. Darth Sidious.

Face it. Anakin being the most powerful Jedi ever refers to potential. Whereas there are sources in both Canon and Legends (the former being the only one of real relevance) that state Vader is altogether more powerful. Vader > Anakin. Case closed.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Emotionally and psychologically, yeah. He was pep talking the dark side, not making a statement about their comparative raw power, lmao.

Anakin has repeatedly been mentioned as either a candidate for or outright the most powerful Jedi in all of history.

That just means Vader is that powerful


However, in terms of pure dueling skills, I am inclined to agree with you. In a purely sabers confrontation, Anakin could come out on top. In all-out and Force contests, I hold Anakin loses.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yes I'm sure it had nothing to do with power, which is irrelevant to Vader.

Except RotS Anakin wasn't "weak" by any reasonable standards. Your interpretation of him referring to power not only works against the very point of that dialogue, but also is the interpretation that is less congruent with the various sources stating the opposite, and ergo is inferior.

Regardless, Vader said lots of things in that dialogue that were wrong - but it concedes the fact that he doesn't think he's Anakin.



Yep. He refers to Anakin in the third person and expresses revulsion at even being called that name.



Yoda's opinion < Gillard's, and in either case, Anakin being the most powerful Jedi doesn't make him the deadliest in a one vs. one confrontation.



Why would potential be referenced in the context of a real-time engagement, as it was when comparing Obi Wan and Anakin? How do you explain the RotS novelization calling Anakin "the strongest" and "the fastest"? And if it were a matter of potential, why would Windu and Stover even use "maybe" qualifications?



Yeah, we're clearly talking about Legends.



The only source in Legends you've provided is from Vader, who doesn't consider himself and Anakin to be equivalent individuals.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Except RotS Anakin wasn't "weak" by any reasonable standards. Your interpretation of him referring to power not only works against the very point of that dialogue, but also is the interpretation that is less congruent with the various sources stating the opposite, and ergo is inferior.

Regardless, Vader said lots of things in that dialogue that were wrong - but it concedes the fact that he doesn't think he's Anakin.So? If Vader claims him to be weak then obviously he is not more powerful.

You also need to understand the difference between claiming to be a new person, and having a split-personality disorder. Vader has disowned his identity as Anakin, yes, but he still acknowledges Anakin as part of his history, because if he did not he would be insane.You can't express revulsion at something that never happened.
Lol, "Gillard's opinion" > what we are actually told in the movie.

Regardless, quite right, Anakin's power/potential does not translate into combative ability. He is not a Yoda tier opponent and he's not beating Vader. And as far as Nick Gillard's actual opinion goes on the matter:

"We didn't see Mace fighting yet, but we know that he is second only to Yoda..."
--Star Wars Episode II: Action Featurette



In fact there are countless sources that state Yoda to be the most powerful Jedi ever, as Mace to be second to him. Some examples:

Along with Mace Windu, a senior member of the Jedi Council, Yoda was the most respected and most powerful member of the Jedi Order.
--Star Wars Fact Files

Despite his diminutive size and frailty, Yoda's incomparable ability to summon the power of the Force enabled him to greatly enhance his agility and speed.
--Star Wars Fact Files

Yoda's ability to use the Force is greater than that of any other Jedi.
--Star Wars: The Legendary Yoda

The greatest Jedi: Yoda, defender of the galaxy, master of the Force, and the greatest Jedi who had ever lived.
--Star Wars: The Legendary Yoda

Yoda was the oldest and most powerful Jedi in the order.
--Star Wars: The Sith Wars

While he is the most powerful Jedi, it's Yoda's wisdom that continues to resonate with fans today.
--StarWars.com

Credit to Aurbere's respect thread.As far as the RotS novelisation goes, evidently Yoda and Windu are excluded (i.e. its hyperbole), as its just not true. As you yourself conceded, Anakin is not the deadliest in a combative engagement as these attributes would have him be.
Uh-huh, Canon > Legends. Canon is essentially the truth of Legends, they do not exist in alternate universes. Therefore any conclusion you reach based on Legends that contradicts Canon material, its categorically wrong.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
So? If Vader claims him to be weak then obviously he is not more powerful.


He's referring to psychological weakness.

...wait, are you referring to what he said to Ahsoka in Rebels? Not only is that a different universe, it was in response to Ahsoka questioning his moral values, not his combat ability. I have no idea where you get the impression that they were having a conversation about his ability to augment his precognition and reflexes.



KEK, that very quote has Vader saying that he destroyed Anakin Skywalker. So I guess by your own literal interpretation, Vader is dead.



Seeing as how Yoda is a fallible source, and his fallibility is one of the motifs of the prequels, yeah.

Gillard places Anakin in the same tier as Sidious and Yoda as a duelist. Vader evidently is not in this tier, seeing as how he couldn't clearly overwhelm ANH Obi Wan.



Not sure about all-out. His raw power is far more correlated to his augmentation, hence why he's able to beat down Dooku.

Vader couldn't overwhelm ANH Obi Wan, the Dark Woman, or various people as easily as Anakin tooled Dooku. Heck, he couldn't even do as well against an old Obi Wan as Dooku did against him.




Yeah, Windu > AotC Anakin, thanks for that info.



What era is this referring to, given your mix-up in the quote above?

This also uses the past tense - it does not preclude Anakin from surpassing him at some point in time, just as Luke eventually would.



Does that make him > Sidious now? In either case, Yoda has evidently mastered the Force to a greater extent than Anakin - that doesn't make him greater in raw power.



See above.



"Greatest" =/= most powerful.



In addition to the above responses, how does this override the movie novelizations and Gillard?



StarWars.com? Seriously?

The intern that wrote that > Nick Gillard?



That's so conveniently circular of you. It's a more solid source than any of the ones you provided.



He would be in a duel. Yoda may have the advantage in his agility and technical skill, but I don't see why Vader would.



Not only are the majority of your own sources Legend, but this would just be a blanket rebuttal to pretty much every thread made in this forum, like the ones with Vitiate, DE Palpatine, and other entities that don't exist in canon. We're obviously playing with two incompatible universes, and as the OP, I'm using Legends.

Cba to get into a long-winded debate on this, so I'm going to condense:

1. Whatever Vader might be referring to, what it all comes back to is the one thing Vader really cares about, power in the Force. Psychological weakness included. It would therefore be bizarre on Vader's part to regard Anakin as weak if despite all his "moral values" or whatever else, he was still a more powerful being - because that is Vader's ultimately goal, to be powerful.

I'm also still seeing no reason to believe Vader doesn't regard his past as Anakin as part of his past. Regardless of whether he believes there is nothing left of the man that once was.

2. Yoda knows how powerful he is, and it stands to reason he knows how powerful Anakin is, therefore we've no reason to doubt his claim.

3. ABC logic does not work. For example in Canon Vader defeated Dooku far faster than he beat Ahsoka, by your reasoning therefore Ahsoka is far more powerful, as Vader has been stated to have grown stronger in the Force. Fact is there are external factors to consider, like technique, circumstance, personal strengths and weaknesses, etc.

4. Many of the quotes regarding Yoda I raised refer not only to his mastery over the Force, but his application of it i.e. "summon the power of the Force", "use of the Force", particular in regards to combat i.e. Yoda is more powerful than Anakin in practice which is all that really matters, especially in the contexts of a vs debate. Sure, Anakin might ultimately possess more raw power, but that's besides the point if he can't apply that power as effectively as Yoda can (as in it is mere potential).

5. Finally regarding Legends vs Canon, that point would be relevant if we were talking to separate sets of events/characters etc. yet we are not. Evidently some Legends simply did not happen, and for the sake of debate we must assume for a moment that they did, and in the ways described. But Anakin is very real, there is only one of him, and Canon is the highest and most accurate authority on his abilities.

Vader is more powerful while Anakin is a lot faster manuverability wise.

The greatest Jedi warrior.

Vader wins Force only

Anakin wins sabers only

id lean towards Vader winning all out; the Force is stronger that being a great duelist and Vader is still a fearsome lightsaber combatant as well

besides everyone knows a Sith is more powerful than a Jedi 1v1

roflmao

Anakin fairly obviously.

Originally posted by relentless1
Anakin wins sabers only
Vader mastered all forms of lightsaber combat, developing a new version of Djem So that included Ataru and Soresu elements, but also added Makashi and Juyo. Instead of fighting through the bulky and heavy armor, Vader fights with it, using his superior strength to enhance his blows. With this new form, Vader regained much of his old agility, and along with his increased strength, I believe that he became an even greater duelist than before.