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How powerful do you think he was?

pre-Nathema Vitiate: NJO Jacen Solo tier
post-Nathema Vitiate: LotF Jacen Solo tier
novel Vitiate: TPM+ Palpatine
SWTOR Vitiate: DE+ Palpatine
post-Ziost Vitiate/Valkorion: any iteration is basically above any mortal Force user, but still beneath The Ones.

Originally posted by JKBart
pre-Nathema Vitiate: NJO Jacen Solo tier


Lmao, your troll persona actually has him lower than I do.

I'd put him on Dooku's level (in raw power).



I'd say a little above Vader.



Somewhat below Caedus.



= Caedus.



= Plagueis.

In either case the primary goal should be to discuss pre-Nathema Vitiate and not just talk about peak-Vitiate again.

A lot closer to his post-Nathema self than most would be on board with.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
A lot closer to his post-Nathema self than most would be on board with.

After absorbing the strength of thousands Sith Lords? How so?

@NewGuy01 Yeah, you'd expect him to have grown drastically stronger after such a ritual, but it's difficult to buy that without either making his post-Nathema self a weakling - which doesn't fit with his backstory of Force severing and driving mad a sith lord when he was 10 - or his post-Nathema self some sort of Abeloth-tier god, which doesn't fit with his getting disarmed by Meetra on a dark side nexus.

A Dooku - > Vader jump is an underperformance but still impressive enough to be believable. Vitiate was clearly more prodigious than Dooku, but then again, Palpatine was more prodigious than Anakin; potential seems to manifest at inconsistent times.

He was a rival of Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh, so around that level.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
@NewGuy01 Yeah, you'd expect him to have grown drastically stronger after such a ritual, but it's difficult to buy that without either making his post-Nathema self a weakling - which doesn't fit with his backstory of Force severing and driving mad a sith lord when he was 10 - or his post-Nathema self some sort of Abeloth-tier god, which doesn't fit with his getting disarmed by Meetra on a dark side nexus.



Tbch, Vitiate is a maddeningly inconsistent character.

Originally posted by Petrus
After absorbing the strength of thousands Sith Lords? How so?

Well for one thing, he very clearly doesn't possess the power of thousands of Sith Lords, or anything remotely within that range, so through making that observation we can conclude that the ritual didn't give him the power of thousands of Sith Lords. Fairly straightforward, I think.

Building off of that idea, I don't think the Sith Lords themselves were an overwhelmingly relevant aspect of the ritual aside from the fact that Vitiate needed their power to perform it. Furthermore, the purpose of the ritual as far was we know was to extend Vitiate's life indefinitely--the fact that it gave him deity-like power was probably an afterthought. A welcome consequence, if anything.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
He was a rival of Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh, so around that level.

Where's that stated?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Well for one thing, he very clearly doesn't possess the power of thousands of Sith Lords, or anything remotely within that range, so through making that observation we can conclude that the ritual didn't give him the power of thousands of Sith Lords. Fairly straightforward, I think.

Building off of that idea, I don't think the Sith Lords themselves were an overwhelmingly relevant aspect of the ritual aside from the fact that Vitiate needed their power to perform it. Furthermore, the purpose of the ritual as far was we know was to extend Vitiate's life indefinitely--the fact that it gave him deity-like power was probably an afterthought. A welcome consequence, if anything. I agree that he transcended more in other ways than raw power. Otherwise, his backstory is just too OP for SWTOR or the novel to make sense.

Supremely powerful, like Thanaton.

I'm confused.

Did it boost his power, or did it only make him immortal?

Of course it boosted his power. Draining like that almost always does, and he became the most powerful sith up to that point with the ritual, so a power boost is confirmed. The point is that immortality was a bigger part of his ambition, and he overall ascended as a force user imo. Like Newguy said, he gained deity-like features.

Hmm. I just came across a quote which claimed that Sadow and Kressh were the most powerful Sith Lords of their time. Made before Vitiate's conception, of course, but as things aren't passively retconned, I still take it as a valid canonical accolade.

With that, I probably have pre-Nathema Vitiate somewhere around Vader-tier, perhaps just a bit below. It's hard to give him an exact placement, since he not only didn't have the ritual boosting his power, but he also didn't have over a millennium of studying the dark side to boost his power either. But then, that's clearly a gap that isn't nearly as big as you'd expect it to be.

Originally posted by Sinious
Of course it boosted his power. Draining like that almost always does, and he became the most powerful sith up to that point with the ritual, so a power boost is confirmed. The point is that immortality was a bigger part of his ambition, and he overall ascended as a force user imo. Like Newguy said, he gained deity-like features. I'm sorry, but no.

Vitiate admits by that point that he couldn't take Ragnos.

Never brings up Sadow or Kressh tho.

He means after the ritual.

Oh wonderful, Ellimist finally got a temp ban for flooding the forum with nonsense. Now it's a tad quiet.

Originally posted by SunRazer
He means after the ritual.

Tbh I can't remember if Ragnos was alive by that point.

I just recall himself seeing Ragnos as a big enough thread to avoid him completely, I remember him being fairly confident he could take Sadow or Kressh though.

The Nathema ritual took place after the Great Hyperspace War, by which point Ragnos was long dead, and all the other Sith were dead too.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
The Nathema ritual took place after the Great Hyperspace War, by which point Ragnos was long dead, and all the other Sith were dead too.

Other than those some 8,000 that were on Nathema. Then again, numbers in SWTOR have always been retarded when taking other literature into account.

Well, all the important ones.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
The Nathema ritual took place after the Great Hyperspace War, by which point Ragnos was long dead, and all the other Sith were dead too.
Nah. Vitiate's Empire was built off the survivors of the war.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
@NewGuy01 Yeah, you'd expect him to have grown drastically stronger after such a ritual, but it's difficult to buy that without either making his post-Nathema self a weakling - which doesn't fit with his backstory of Force severing and driving mad a sith lord when he was 10 - or his post-Nathema self some sort of Abeloth-tier god, which doesn't fit with his getting disarmed by Meetra on a dark side nexus.

A Dooku - > Vader jump is an underperformance but still impressive enough to be believable. Vitiate was clearly more prodigious than Dooku, but then again, Palpatine was more prodigious than Anakin; potential seems to manifest at inconsistent times. oh... well I don't know much about vitiate other than he was an absurdly powerful emperor and a "pioneer" of immortality.
this is my theory on his force abilities,"after the ritual which was made to give him IMMORTALITY(not power albeit I don't know much about it either) his powers increased to his maximum potential, but instead of the rest of the energy going into him it was a constant stream dedicated to keeping him alive."

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Other than those some 8,000 that were on Nathema. Then again, numbers in SWTOR have always been retarded when taking other literature into account. to be honest the star wars universe is ABSURDLY large... so 8,000 could be like 8 to them lhh...

The Nathema ritual didn't take place "long after" Ragnos' demise. Ragnos' funeral was immediately followed by the Great Hyperspace War, which was immediately followed by Nathema.

Either way, I do not recall Vitiate ever saying he couldn't take Ragnos but he could take Kressh and Sadow. Does anyone have the quote?

That quote isn't a thing.

Ragnos was Vitiate's Master tho.

There's also the fact that Ragnos' spirit challenged Darth Plaguies and he backed down.

Don't believe me? Go read "Book of Sith: Secrets of the Dark Side".

Ok. Page number?

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
That quote isn't a thing.

Ragnos was Vitiate's Master tho.
Ragnos never tutored or mentored Vitiate; this is fanon assumption. When these two met, Ragnos accepted Vitiate's demands in order to keep him away from politics.

Ragnos was well-known for minimizing potential threats to him through his schemes and sound decisions. Ragnos could not afford enmity of Vitiate.

Vitiate is largely self-taught. Becoming an apprentice of someone (even the ruling Emperor) was beneath him.

Hey, I'm just repeating what SWTOR told me.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Hey, I'm just repeating what SWTOR told me.
Details?

Yeah, SoR confirmed Vitiate's master was Ragnos. Cool stuff.

When? How?

http://i.imgur.com/eUQoXog.png
http://i.imgur.com/K5uqCAj.png

Holy shit his HP.

Ok, Ragnos was Vitiate's master at some point confirmed.

I thought this was old news.

And seriously, I can't believe they actually made his skin blue.

Eh, looks kinda cool.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I thought this was old news.

And seriously, I can't believe they actually made his skin blue.

He was just really cold. He is technically dead.

The other spirits are colored normally. Now Ragnos being some bizarre blue-skinned Sith is actually canon, and not just an inaccurate action figure.

He's been dead longer.

The question is was Ragnos Vitiate's master pre-Nathema or post?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
The other spirits are colored normally. Now Ragnos being some bizarre blue-skinned Sith is actually canon, and not just an inaccurate action figure.
They probably looked at his Wookieepedia profile picture and then didn't realize it's featuring a ghost and not his physical body.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Marka_Ragnos

Originally posted by Petrus
The question is was Ragnos Vitiate's master pre-Nathema or post?

Post-Nathema Ragnos was dead. And Vitiate had been a Sith for a long time.

Not sure how you could mistake that picture for a physical body, clearly screams ghost. Otherwise he has no eyes as a physical body too.

Plus isn't this what he looks like right here?

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/9/95/Exarulicsithlords_b.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20070112001140

Soo...yeah.

Originally posted by Aurbere
Post-Nathema Ragnos was dead. And Vitiate had been a Sith for a long time.

Right.

Well, that means Ragnos was probably more powerful than pre-Nathema Vitiate.

That picture isn't accurate either, Zen.

Well he clearly doesn't have blue skin and no eyes, is my point. I don't see how anyone could mistake that for being anything but a ghost form.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
http://i.imgur.com/eUQoXog.png
http://i.imgur.com/K5uqCAj.png

Pardon me.
Where does it say, that this is Ragnos?

Vitiate having a master doesn't make sense in the first place. That master being Ragnos makes even less sense. And even if it was Ragnos, it makes no sense for his spirit to be on Yavin 4 at that point in time.

Just saying...

It doesn't make sense that Exar Kun, Tulak Hord, and Naga Sadow's spirits were walking around Yavin IV as well, but that's what happened.

The armor set that the spirit is wearing is specifically labeled as Marka Ragnos' in the game. And since the other big three were there, makes sense Ragnos was too.

It's incredibly obvious. Tulak Hord, Naga Sadow, and Exar Kun are also there.

And the fact that he has blue skin, regardless of whether or not it makes sense, definitely points towards it being Ragnos. There's literally no other pureblood with blue skin in any material out there.

Kun looks extremely pathetic though.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-LT1c3SLNIvA/V18dp4LZnmI/AAAAAAAAAkw/wdpKYpwTTrcIu-vmRCTxGB86amoxxE4pwCL0B/w502-h485-no/kun.PNG

Because he is extremely pathetic

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
It doesn't make sense that Exar Kun, Tulak Hord, and Naga Sadow's spirits were walking around Yavin IV as well, but that's what happened.


Well. It does make sense for Kun and Sadow, actually. They both died on the planet.



Yeah. After seeing the spirit, it appears to be Ragnos. SW:ToR makes less and less sense...

Well, Kun's spirit is suppose to be trapped in a temple - not walking around the open fields of Yavin IV while Revan tries to resurrect Vitiate.

And Naga Sadow's spirit was supposed to be destroyed by Freedon Nadd.

Well BW doesn't really have to follow any rules, now that Legends isn't canon anymore. So they can just make up whatever they want...which they are.