Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

MODERN SITH
⊛ SoD Darth Maul
⊛ RotS Count Dooku
⊛ RotJ Darth Vader

ANCIENT SITH
⊛ Karness Muur
⊛ Ludo Kressh
⊛ Freedon Nadd

THE RULES
⊛ Fight in Valley of the Dark Lords, nexus is active like in PT era.
⊛ Starting distance - 15 meters.
⊛ In character.

I'd side team two. Dooku and Maul can't really compete.

Muur > Vader
Nadd > Dooku
Kressh < Maul

Ancient Sith win.

Ancient Sith destroy them.

Murr considered Krayt weak.

The other two are more powerful then him.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Murr considered Krayt weak.
And?

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Ancient Sith destroy them.

The other two are more powerful then him.

Nah.

And I doubt it.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
And? As he was actively fighting him, and Krayt was actually trying, Murr was playing with him.

Team modern, lol.

Modern Sith handily

Muur is stated to essentially be the most powerful, specifically over Krayt and Cade, and that is just the Spirit of Karness Muur, not Prime Karness Muur.



No real debate about him being stronger than Krayt, who is arguably > Vader himself.

Which is only true about pre Prime Krayt, and doesn't apply to Krayt as of The Legacy comics. Likewise Draining Abeloth >>>> anything Muur is capable of whether living or dead

Yet, Karness Muur was 'post-prime' if you will, not as powerful as he was in life when he helped establish the Sith Order. You can point out Krayt is pre-prime but it would be disingenous to not afford the same courtesy to Karness Muur's spirit.

Ancient Sith in a stomp.

Modern Sith are honed for a more traditional set of challenges: Melee and Telekinesis.

Ancient Sith are masters of Sith Sorcery. They also have the MVP in Karness Muur.

Ancient Sith shall prevail handily by virtue of plethora of tricks and techniques up their sleeves that may surprise Modern Sith, IMO.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I'd side team two. Dooku and Maul can't really compete.

What?

They can in sabers, infact they'd win in sabers, clearly. In Force however I'm not seeing anything suggesting either competes with Nadd or Muur.

I'm talking about all-out. He also didn't specify Nadd or Muur, and I don't see Kressh stomping them... at all.

Kressh loses to anyone here honestly.

Probably, yeah.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Yet, Karness Muur was 'post-prime' if you will, not as powerful as he was in life when he helped establish the Sith Order. You can point out Krayt is pre-prime but it would be disingenous to not afford the same courtesy to Karness Muur's spirit. Source?

He's a spirit, no spirits are as powerful as their living counterparts. Celeste Morne was a poor host compared to ESB Luke or Leia, who had the potential to achieve the power Muur needed to escape his spirit form.

Right, because of their circumstances, being weaker than you were in life is not intrinsic to being a spirit.

Muur on the other hand had the power of the Muur talisman to sustain him and a fairly powerful Force user to feed off, over the period of 4,000 years. Certainly his powers don't appear to have dimmed, and its just as possible he grew fatter and stronger on those resources.

He doesn't retain his power, only his mind survives and he is stated to need Force users possessed by the talisman to use Force powers at all. The fact he needs a being powerful enough, such as Krayt or Vader, to escape his talisman and become physical again is enough for me to acknowledge that Morne isn't a strong enough host for his full powers.

Originally posted by AncientPower
He doesn't retain his power, only his mind survives and he is stated to need Force users possessed by the talisman to use Force powers at all.Huh? He doesn't retain his power and yet is more powerful than Krayt, Cade etc? And it's pretty standard for spirits to need living conduits to use the living Force. Even Valkorion did. Doesn't make them weak.What's this supposed to prove? Haven't you argued he's stronger than both of them?And the goal posts change.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Source? He was trapped in Celeste Morne, who he claimed multiple times was too weak for him.

Why do you think he wanted a new body???

What is the relevance of Celeste Morne's weakness here? We are discussing whether Muur was past his prime, not whether he had a strong enough vessel to express his full abilities.

And he obviously needed tremendous amounts of power to restore himself to physical form since Luke & Leia, the children of the Chosen One, are the only ones he says possesses the strength to do so.

Vader with Muurs power would have achieved a level of strength that he considered enough to challenge Palpatine, something that not even in his prime he tried to do alone. Muur also considered 19 BBY Vader to be a powerful host to use his talisman. So those two more than likely are in the same tier, but going from how Vader thought of Muurs power I would say Prme Muur>Prime Vader. In the comic it also said Muur was stronger than Vader and Morne. 

Nadd in some guidebook was said to be around Muurs level of power, then again the same databook said Ragnos was also around those two in power although that isn't too unbelievable. It does bring up where Ajunta fits in though.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
He was trapped in Celeste Morne, who he claimed multiple times was too weak for him.

Why do you think he wanted a new body???


Part of it was Morne wouldn't let him ride ^^ And being sith, he always wants more power- even if he was at full strength, of *course* he'd want someone better. Considering at that point Morne's body was over a century old and had that much force experience, I would expect them to be quite impressive by that point, maybe up to Muur's Prime- when in charge, at least.

I wouldn't say that he toyed with Krayt- the actual clash between in-control Muur and Krayt was pretty short (an Imperial Knight/Jedi Master stabbed him in the neck while they were exchanging lightning)- but yea, he's stronger.


Anyway, aside from *that*, like The Merchant covered Vader himself was worried whether or not using the Talisman to dethrone Palpatine would be exchanging one master for another. So, Vader thought Muur was pretty beastly too- and that's one thing that suggests the talisman + body can surpass original recipe Muur, Vader was also pretty sure with the talisman he'd beat Sidious!


Original Recipe Muur could've been the same level as Muur-in-Morne-at-full, while getting in Vader or Cade's body a flat upgrade.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Kressh loses to anyone here honestly.

Mostly just because he undexposed. Given his rivalry with Sadow, I'd think he could be competitive here with some more feats. He did smash a huge statue iirc.

I'll follow the consensus and say that the Ancients take it, yes.

Ancients on the strength of Nadd and Muur, not that Ludo is actually weak by any stretch of the imagination.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Ancients on the strength of Nadd and Muur, not that Ludo is actually weak by any stretch of the imagination. Sadow and Kressh are both more powerful then Nadd and Muur.

Not that this is relevant, but they're also more powerful then Tulak Hord.

Thanks for providing evidence for that set of polarizing statements, there.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Right, because of their circumstances, being weaker than you were in life is not intrinsic to being a spirit.


Urm.
Yes, it is.
First off: Since the strength to your connection to the Force is determined by the amount of midi-chlorians in your body-cells, losing your entire body will negatively affect your connection with the Force and your ability to use it. Hence Force spirits are usually not even capable of physically affecting the world.

Now you, rightfully, say, that there are special circumstances for Sith. Yes. But the thing that all of them have in common, that they are trying to prolong their physical lives or regain a physical shape, when they are dead. What point would there be for them to do so, if their spirit counterparts were more powerful or even rather close to their original selves in terms of force powers? It doesn't make sense to trade your spirit form for a physical existence, when the latter is far easier to end and also imposes the limitations of a physical body on you compared to - very few - pleasures available in the physical realm.

So, yeah, it's quite obvious that force spirits are not as powerful as the living force user would be.



I wonder how you managed to compare his present powers as a spirit to his powers as a living person, to conclude that they "don't appear to have dimmed".

No Nai, spirits have unlimited capacity for channeling the Force. Beni proved it 100%. Duh.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No Nai, spirits have unlimited capacity for channeling the Force. Beni proved it 100%. Duh.

Well, technically Nai's also wrong. There's no reason a cosmic force entity would need to use midichlorians as a middle-man to communicate with the Force.

That being said, the Force has two essential spectrums; the cosmic force, and the living force. To harness the living force that directly affects the physical plane, a spirit needs either a living host or some sort of artifact to channel their power through. Of course, there are loopholes that can allow a spirit to affect the physical plane in roundabout ways, but their powers are limited in application. I'm not sure that means quite the same thing as weakened, though.

Originally posted by Nai
Urm.
Yes, it is.
First off: Since the strength to your connection to the Force is determined by the amount of midi-chlorians in your body-cells, losing your entire body will negatively affect your connection with the Force and your ability to use it. Hence Force spirits are usually not even capable of physically affecting the world.

Now you, rightfully, say, that there are special circumstances for Sith. Yes. But the thing that all of them have in common, that they are trying to prolong their physical lives or regain a physical shape, when they are dead. What point would there be for them to do so, if their spirit counterparts were more powerful or even rather close to their original selves in terms of force powers? It doesn't make sense to trade your spirit form for a physical existence, when the latter is far easier to end and also imposes the limitations of a physical body on you compared to - very few - pleasures available in the physical realm.

So, yeah, it's quite obvious that force spirits are not as powerful as the living force user would be.Why are they so desperate to regain their physical form? Well for the reasons you stated, they don't have access to a natural connection to the living Force and therefore are dependent on external sources of power for such energy, and also seemingly dependent on a host to express them. For obvious reasons not a favourable position to be in.

However neither suggest some kind of glass ceiling is put in place over how powerful under those conditions they could become.

Instead we have individuals like Emperor Vitiate consuming entire planets as a spirit entity... (the act of consuming Ziost making him more powerful than ever before) Well I meant more in the sense that his weakness is nowhere highlighted, and instead his strength is repeatedly stressed. So bar assumptions being made about spirits, we are given no reason to believe his powers have diminished.Originally posted by Nephthys
No Nai, spirits have unlimited capacity for channeling the Force. Beni proved it 100%. Duh. Spirit entities are unbound from the limitations of the mortal body yes, that from that you've reached the conclusion they have unlimited power is more sad than amusing however.

Originally posted by AncientPower
He's a spirit, no spirits are as powerful as their living counterparts. Celeste Morne was a poor host compared to ESB Luke or Leia, who had the potential to achieve the power Muur needed to escape his spirit form.


The talisman with a host body is a lot different than most spirits.

And- who *wouldn't* be stronger with Luke or Leia's potential?


Muur wasn't talking about 'escaping his spirit form,' or restoring his old body, his own form wasn't on the objective list, he just wanted the best host he could.

Unlike Nadd or Sadow, Muur was fine with being a talisman controlling a body.



Originally posted by Jmanghan
He was trapped in Celeste Morne, who he claimed multiple times was too weak for him.

Why do you think he wanted a new body???


He had multiple problems with her. Like, for one, she kept resisting him and preventing him from doing what he wanted, for literally over a century of awake-time, Morne had willpower to spare. For another, she was lightside, and he found darkside bodies preferable (which is why he was angling for Krayt so much even with Cade around).

It's not that she was weak in absolute terms, I mean she even figured out how to use some of the talisman's powers on her own and with her he thought he could handle Krayt or Vader, just that he wanted as strong as he could get, especially one that would not resist him.

There is literally a statement saying he could finally escape with the Skywalker's potential.