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So it's commonly accepted that Surik > Scourge as of the novel, but what about Scourge in TOR?

1. KotOR II Exile

2. Novel Exile

Scourge crushes her head under his boot.

Yeah I'd side with Scourge in both. Quite frankly don't see much of a difference between Meetra's incarnations tbh

That's just there so people who do see a big difference can make two separate judgments.

But the consensus as of yet is a resounding victory for Scourge. Not good for AP and Selenial...

LEL. Let them believe that KOTOR 2 characters are actually powerful. Nihilus is the only one that really is.

You forgot the unseen god who received truckloads of hype... Revan.

And Tulak Hord, but seriously, he sounds like some jewellery store.

Oh, he needn't be seen, merely felt. Revan is the heart of the force. His heart is bound to everyone else's.

Everybody forgets Ludo Kressh, whose ambient energies in his Tomb were enough to summon all those hallucinations and phantasms that Surik actually fought (plus it blocks all of her companions from entering). The true god. Imagine how powerful he'd be in real life.

Well, see, Gods by KOTOR 2 standards are just people who are actually good, I.e. Nihilus, Revan, Kressh, the rest of the ancients, etc.

It does make you wonder how badly living Kressh would crush Surik, though.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Oh, he needn't be seen, merely felt. Revan is the heart of the force. His heart is bound to everyone else's.

Well yeah, Ludo would probably be a ways too much for Nyriss, much less Meetra. She'd get squashed like an insect.

So Lord Scourge gets completely outclassed by Meetra in Revan but he stomps her by TOR? Yeh, because killing a thousand fodder matters when it's Scourge but not when it's Meetra.

#SWVFDoubleStandards2016

Scourge definitely pwns novel Meetra. Kotor II Exile, ignoring everything Drew wrote afterwards, would beat Scourge in a tough fight. Otherwise Scourge takes it.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
LEL. Let them believe that KOTOR 2 characters are actually powerful. Nihilus is the only one that really is.

Well, someone's salty. I might take you seriously if you didn't back out of our debate after a single post. At least have the dignity to get slaughtered over a couple pages, instead of bowing out so suddenly. What 6 days can do to someone, oh how the mighty Skillz has fallen

Nah, that is some salt.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Scourge definitely pwns novel Meetra. Kotor II Exile, ignoring everything Drew wrote afterwards, would beat Scourge in a tough fight. Otherwise Scourge takes it. But they're the same person, canonically...

So Meetra loses.

Meetra wins regardless lol

Originally posted by AncientPower
Meetra wins regardless lol Does she?

How powerful of a nexus do you think Dromund Kaas is?...

Furthermore, even if not hindered by the Dark Side Nexus, even if she was able to stomp Nyriss, she still wouldn't be a match for Scourge, honestly.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Does she?

How powerful of a nexus do you think Dromund Kaas is?...

If it is one at all, it's barely notable imo. It wasn't strong enough to effect the populace that lived there for a millennia. We see that a powerful nexus like the Dark Temple is able to make those in its vicinity insane and Malachor V corrupted nearly all who walked upon it, the majority of Dromund Kaas exhibits none of those traits.

Read the book Neph, Meetra remarks on how powerful the dark side is and states that she can't meditate and achieve enlightenment on the planet.

Furthermore Lord Scourge senses the dark side energy pulsing from the citadel, power enough to sustain him for hours during his training years at the Kaas Academy.

More importantly, Meetra was already physically and mentally far worse off than she was on Malachor V before she underwent five days of no rest or sustenance until fighting Nyriss.

Meanwhile Scourge is on a dark side nexus that can empower him and when he fights Nyriss he has both the Guards' pain to gorge from and also Nyriss' stated ferocity.

But Meetra still does far better in a 1 vs 1 against a focused Nyriss as opposed to Scourge who has to literally fall on his ass to escape a single saber thrust from Nyriss.

Give Meetra full physical and mental capacity and put it on neutral terrain, she is obviously doing a hell of a lot better.

Nah, nah, nah, AP you've got it all wrong.

You see, Scourge was in SW:TOR!

Hope that helps clear things up a bit, he obviously wins

Originally posted by Selenial
Well, someone's salty. I might take you seriously if you didn't back out of our debate after a single post. At least have the dignity to get slaughtered over a couple pages, instead of bowing out so suddenly. What 6 days can do to someone, oh how the mighty Skillz has fallen

Woah wait what

Why the long face? Why the rage, Sel?

You talking about the Krayt debate? The one where I said I probably wouldn't respond at all if I didn't that day?

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Woah wait what

Why the long face? Why the rage, Sel?

You talking about the Krayt debate? The one where I said I probably wouldn't respond at all if I didn't that day?

I lost infinite amounts of respect for you after finding out who got you banned

Learn to control your own minions before you attempt to challenge me, child

I actually don't know who got me banned tbh

Was it AP, Freshest, or Bart

Me? Minions? I'd never use such cruel methods, amirite?

Like literally all the difference between his two incarnations is a thousand fodder Sith and Jedi that he likely took on in one-on-one combats over 300 years. Sure that is better experience but it is nothing compared to what Meetra did facing legions of Sith.

It is even more enlightening that Meetra kills twice the Guards that Lord Scourge does, in the same amount of time, without sustaining any stated injuries, unlike Scourge who took two serious staff blows, and was amplifying himself off of the terror of the Guards to beat them. Despite the fact this was in the Citadel, which pulses with dark side energy, and was in the presence of the Emperor, whom is stated to weaken and cripple a Jedi's connection to the Light Side of the Force with his presence.

Like legit Scourge has nothing on Meetra.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I actually don't know who got me banned tbh

Was it AP, Freshest, or Bart

Me? Minions? I'd never use such cruel methods, amirite?

You've literally done nothing to warrant my report, if that was the case I would've reported half the forum.

I love how Scourge:

> Reaching his immense potential

> Receiving an amp from Emperor Vitiate

Along with the immense experience he'd gain in combat and in the force over 300 years, aren't things. It's almost as if you're...leaving vital information out

Such as the fact that Scourge only got hit because he was receiving/thinking about his force visions, (drawing his attention away from the fight entirely,) is a sith, so amplifies himself off his own emotions and others' emotions anyways, and the all-important fact that Meetra was fighting the same amount of guards. What makes anyone think Meetra fought more than a pair? Like, it's straight up lying to state otherwise:





Literally, the only argument against Novel Scourge that stands is nexus. Freaking Novel Scourge. It's as I said earlier:

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I actually don't know who got me banned tbh

Was it AP, Freshest, or Bart

Me? Minions? I'd never use such cruel methods, amirite?

Shit Sel who the fugg was it

I wanna an know

Originally posted by AncientPower
Read the book Neph, Meetra remarks on how powerful the dark side is and states that she can't meditate and achieve enlightenment on the planet.

Or you could post the quotes yourself. IIRC her remark is "the darkside was strong" which is as generic ad meaningless as it gets with a nexus. Who gives a shit that she can't meditate? But yeah, post proof that she can't reach enlightenment please, that seems awfully specific for Drew.

Originally posted by AncientPower
More importantly, Meetra was already physically and mentally far worse off than she was on Malachor V before she underwent five days of no rest or sustenance until fighting Nyriss.

https://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-jerkbag.gif

She certainly wasn't worse off. Malachor is a far stronger and more debilitating nexus, the MSG impacted her performance and Meetra had to do a shitton of fighting after crashing on the planet.

If the supposed lack of sleep and food actually impacted her Meetra would surely have rectified the issue. Or her tactical abilities have been greatly, greatly exaggerated because she would be a blithering twit.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Meanwhile Scourge is on a dark side nexus that can empower him and when he fights Nyriss he has both the Guards' pain to gorge from and also Nyriss' stated ferocity.

But Meetra still does far better in a 1 vs 1 against a focused Nyriss as opposed to Scourge who has to literally fall on his ass to escape a single saber thrust from Nyriss.

I don't care. If this were Revan Scourge you might have a point.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Give Meetra full physical and mental capacity and put it on neutral terrain, she is obviously doing a hell of a lot better.

Who cares. Her best feats took place at a greater disadvantage. She still got stomped by Nyriss. Revan Meetra is embarrassingly shit. And according to you, a complete moron.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Like literally all the difference between his two incarnations is a thousand fodder Sith and Jedi that he likely took on in one-on-one combats over 300 years.

AP outs herself as knowing diddly squat about Scourge, news at 11.

AP is actually mostly right, on principle. Meetra was working against a dark side nexus, was allegedly much worse for wear than Scourge, and still fared better than he did against Nyriss.

That being said, this doesn't mean that they're not depicted to be relative peers. He's going to put up a hard fight, and 300 years later he should be thoroughly out of her league as a warrior.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
He's going to put up a hard fight, and 300 years later he should be thoroughly out of her league as a warrior.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
AP is actually mostly right, on principle. Meetra was working against a dark side nexus, was allegedly much worse for wear than Scourge, and still fared better than he did against Nyriss.

That being said, this doesn't mean that they're not depicted to be relative peers. He's going to put up a hard fight, and 300 years later he should be thoroughly out of her league as a warrior.

Shame that this massive lapse of time doesn't actually appear to be a huge factor though. Simply extrapolating that an improvement is logical doesn't actually mean what you're suggesting it means. Scourge should logically have improved in the force dramatically, yet he refuses to even face a weakened Vitiate, due to his last engagement. Logically with three hundred years he should be a swordsman who eclipses Dooku and Anakin, but he gets beaten by the HoT who by this point really doesn't have phenomenal feats.

Sith learn through straining themselves, theres really not much reason to believe that killing on average a few Sith/Jedi a year improved him exponentially, and if time was a factor then Sidious would never be a better duelist than Yoda, let alone an equal.

Scourge is shown to be solidly below a Novel!Surik in the Revan Novel, and his increase, while visible, doesn't seem to be huge by any stretch of the imagination. On the flip side, her power levels as of KotOR II, and her wound, are a significant enough boost that she should quite handily beat a prime Scourge.

I wasn't actually saying the 300 years was the reason I have him thoroughly above Meetra; the fact that the Dark Council's leadership feared his strength is evidence enough for me.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I wasn't actually saying the 300 years was the reason I have him thoroughly above Meetra; the fact that the Dark Council's leadership feared his strength is evidence enough for me.

... Which Dark Council members do you have above Prime!Meetra, out of curiosity?

Marr? Thanaton? Baras? Jadus?

More than just them. The Dark Councillors of the TOR Empire were incredibly powerful; their pinnacle members (Nyriss, Marr, Nox, and Jadus) are out of the Exile's league entirely.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Or you could post the quotes yourself. IIRC her remark is "the darkside was strong" which is as generic ad meaningless as it gets with a nexus. Who gives a shit that she can't meditate? But yeah, post proof that she can't reach enlightenment please, that seems awfully specific for Drew.

Neph hasn't read the novel, news at 11:



Originally posted by Nephthys
https://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-jerkbag.gif

She certainly wasn't worse off. Malachor is a far stronger and more debilitating nexus, the MSG impacted her performance and Meetra had to do a shitton of fighting after crashing on the planet.

Malachor V was worse than Nathema? Wrong again:



She was being literally discorporated into trillions of subatomic particles, but for her willpower. Malachor V is not even close to that level, or even of the same magnitude. A literal void was tearing her mentally, spiritually and physically apart. The idea she isn't seriously damaged from that is Class-A retardation.

Originally posted by Nephthys
If the supposed lack of sleep and food actually impacted her Meetra would surely have rectified the issue. Or her tactical abilities have been greatly, greatly exaggerated because she would be a blithering twit.



It isn't supposed, but literally stated, she spends the better half of a week purely researching the Sith Empire's tens of thousands of records to find Dromund Kaas. For a Jedi to undergo that a mere two days after nearly being erased spiritually, mentally and physically from existence is going to be incredibly straining.

She heads straight to Dromund Kaas following this, where the Dark Side is stated to be strong enough to send shivers down her spine. The following day is where her attempt to meditate and achieve enlightenment fails, due to the strength of the Dark Side on the planet. Yet she has to fight a band of handpicked mercenaries and still analyses the threat in less than second and hits a heavily armoured merc with a Force push so hard that it kills her on impact.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't care. If this were Revan Scourge you might have a point.

It's okay to concede Neph, you should be used to it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Who cares. Her best feats took place at a greater disadvantage. She still got stomped by Nyriss. Revan Meetra is embarrassingly shit. And according to you, a complete moron.

No they didn't, that is explicitly stated to be the opposite of the fact of the matter.

Originally posted by Nephthys
AP outs herself as knowing diddly squat about Scourge, news at 11.

Says the person who clearly didn't bother to read the novel with any semblance of comprehension.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I love how Scourge:

> Reaching his immense potential

> Receiving an amp from Emperor Vitiate

Along with the immense experience he'd gain in combat and in the force over 300 years, aren't things. It's almost as if you're...leaving vital information out

Yeh and Meetra Surik whilst seriously hindered utterly outperformed him in an environment that was absolutely his home turf.

Killing 1100 supposedly dangerous Sith and Jedi, likely in single combats, over 300 years, isn't anywhere near as impressive as it sounds, so that's a little over 3 serious challenges per year? Sweet. The Exile was wading through legions of elite Sith

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Such as the fact that Scourge only got hit because he was receiving/thinking about his force visions, (drawing his attention away from the fight entirely,)

So he is less mentally focused on combat than Meetra, who is capable, as Revan notes, of entering a form of battle focus prior to a contest, that makes her a perfect extension of the Force?



Nice to find some common ground Skillz.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
is a sith, so amplifies himself off his own emotions and others' emotions anyways.

Glad we agree he's feeding off of an enemy to take the final victory, but don't forget that all important citadel emanating with energy that he remarks as capable of sustaining his younger self for hours, from all the way across the City, don't forget that part:



Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
and the all-important fact that Meetra was fighting the same amount of guards. What makes anyone think Meetra fought more than a pair? Like, it's straight up lying to state otherwise:

Wrong, so wrong, you cut out the entire first half of the fight, let me give you some numbers and basic step-by-step reading comprehension:



-There were seven guards including Yarri.


-Revan knocked over one of the guards and T3 shot him, as Meetra engaged a pair at the doors. T3 didn't kill the guard as Imperial Guard armor can tank blaster shots.


-Scourge faced Yarri alone in single combat.


-Besides Yarri who Scourge was busy with, and the pair Meetra fought, three guards remained.
[

-Revan engages a guard, who he kills.


-So all of a sudden there are three guards left and Yarri, rather than the six and Yarri earlier(the novel mentions three besides the pair Meetra was facing). Scourge doesn't face a pair until after this point as he has been stuck with Yarri solely. Revan killed one of the remaining six, leaving Meetra to deal with five, evidently killing two, until one goes to help Yarri against Scourge.

Meetra: 4
Scourge: 2
Revan: 1

All in the proximity of the Emperor who passively cripples lightside connections to the Force with his mere presence.

Get it? Got it? Good.

^Where to begin.

Apologising for your incessant "all of kotor is shit" brain fart might be a start, you're supposed to be one of the most intellectual members of the forum yet you subscribe to retarded era wars?

The quality of KotOR and KotOR II has absolutely nothing to do with the combat ability of the people in that era. Like at all. NJO doesn't have OP characters because of it's quality writing and interesting setting, lel.

That wasn't my point, every era has stands out, PT merely benefits from by far the greatest exposure. NJO is basically Star Wars authors writing down every half baked moronic idea they can fashion. Thus they have the strongest roster.

However the idea that any one given era is a useless cesspool of no talent or power, just because we don't have enough "feats" to "wank" is utterly moronic. If a character, regardless of who, is stated to be excellent at something thrn they are excellent, feat wars is just the antithesis of logic. Feats surely help but they aren't the be-all-end-all of our ability to comprehend what a character can do.

These arbitrary "forum standards" are just senseless.

Or maybe, and I hope you're setting down for this one because it's going to blow your mind, he saw the feats for these people and didn't find them all that impressive, not because they were in a certain era, but because they weren't all that impressive? It's not arbitrary just because you don't agree with it. This forum is based on accolades and feats, and when one has just about the same accolades, feats are what we fall back on. And KotOR/KotOR II era characters leave a lot of us wanting.

I know exactly why, I merely think saying Revan is a Ventress tier duelist, as many 'PT Brigade' users claim, is laughably incredulous. They aren't legendary long after their time for mediocrity.

Well considering SKILLZ said Revan can go up against Krayt, I doubt he thinks Revan is a Ventress tier duelist.

https://media3.giphy.com/media/k9XrZaAJuQyMU/200_s.gif

Lol @ Ventress being a mediocre duelist.

I didn't call her that, I'm making two statements with that.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Like literally all the difference between his two incarnations is a thousand fodder Sith and Jedi that he likely took on in one-on-one combats over 300 years. Sure that is better experience but it is nothing compared to what Meetra did facing legions of Sith.

It is even more enlightening that Meetra kills twice the Guards that Lord Scourge does, in the same amount of time, without sustaining any stated injuries, unlike Scourge who took two serious staff blows, and was amplifying himself off of the terror of the Guards to beat them. Despite the fact this was in the Citadel, which pulses with dark side energy, and was in the presence of the Emperor, whom is stated to weaken and cripple a Jedi's connection to the Light Side of the Force with his presence.

Like legit Scourge has nothing on Meetra. TOR Scourge would Godstomp Novel Scourge.

No one on either of the Dark Councils has anything on him.

AP where does it say the Guard shot by T3 wasn't killed? Cause they were mowed down in droves by blaster fire earlier.

It was difficult and she gives up even trying when T3 starts beeping at her. Also a trance has nothing to do with meditation. She was trying to achieve enlightenment in the prior example via meditation, whereas in the second she was in a trance designed to cleanse her mind of emotions. What horrifically poor logical process did you go through to think they were the same thing?

Are you really THIS thick? The planet is a void of annihilation that did exactly the same thing to everything Vitiate absorbed in the ritual, it isn't a metaphor you bimbo. How the hell is a metaphor worse than Malachor V? Did you even read the damn quote?

Her saying she'll be okay is just her reassuring T3 of her health so he'll decipher data, how can you possibly think that Meetra Surik is surviving that and then is absolutely fine afterwards? Not to mention the ensuing four days of a total lack of sleeping and eating isn't going to simply worsen the after effects? You realise Palpatine after a few weeks of the same was on borderline physical shutdown, right?

I also like how you try to call me out for not mentioning that she had two initial days... after quoting me mentioning exactly that. I also love how you assume two days is going to fully heal something that bad when something as relatively minor as Force lightning has effected other Jedi for weeks before fully healing it.

The point being that Meetra is not nearly 100%, whereas Scourge had available amps at his disposable in both fights. Yet Meetra still outperforms him both times by fairly drastic degrees.

Lord Scourge loses his ability to feel emotions altogether and thus loses his dark side gorging ability and thus his biggest mark for potential is taken as a price of immortality. 1,100 serious combats over 300 years isn't impressive by any margin compared to elite army busters like Meetra Surik or Revan.

Obviously Scourge got a lot better but your claim that he's essentially somehow doubling his combat prowess sounds like an overestimate to me. Because really that is how far he's going to need to get to improve that drastically.

Originally posted by AncientPower
It was difficult and she gives up even trying when T3 starts beeping at her. Also a trance has nothing to do with meditation. She was trying to achieve enlightenment in the prior example via meditation, whereas in the second she was in a trance designed to cleanse her mind of emotions. What horrifically poor logical process did you go through to think they were the same thing?

Are you really THIS thick? The planet is a void of annihilation that did exactly the same thing to everything Vitiate absorbed in the ritual, it isn't a metaphor you bimbo. How the hell is a metaphor worse than Malachor V? Did you even read the damn quote?

Her saying she'll be okay is just her reassuring T3 of her health so he'll decipher data, how can you possibly think that Meetra Surik is surviving that and then is absolutely fine afterwards? Not to mention the ensuing four days of a total lack of sleeping and eating isn't going to simply worsen the after effects? You realise Palpatine after a few weeks of the same was on borderline physical shutdown, right?

I also like how you try to call me out for not mentioning that she had two initial days... after quoting me mentioning exactly that. I also love how you assume two days is going to fully heal something that bad when something as relatively minor as Force lightning has effected other Jedi for weeks before fully healing it.

The point being that Meetra is not nearly 100%, whereas Scourge had available amps at his disposable in both fights. Yet Meetra still outperforms him both times by fairly drastic degrees.

Lord Scourge loses his ability to feel emotions altogether and thus loses his dark side gorging ability and thus his biggest mark for potential is taken as a price of immortality. 1,100 serious combats over 300 years isn't impressive by any margin compared to elite army busters like Meetra Surik or Revan.

Obviously Scourge got a lot better but your claim that he's essentially somehow doubling his combat prowess sounds like an overestimate to me. Because really that is how far he's going to need to get to improve that drastically. He went from getting destroyed by Nyriss, with Meetra's help, to making every single person on the dark council scared of his presence, thats a drastic improvement on his part, as Nyriss wasn't even the strongest person on the Dark Council back then.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
AP where does it say the Guard shot by T3 wasn't killed? Cause they were mowed down in droves by blaster fire earlier.

The guards have thick chestplate armour and a helmet, but their entire lower body is just mesh and robes, massed blaster rifle fire is going to kill quite a few.

I'm not seeing any thick chest piece armor. There's a little bit of armor that covers their front which seems kinda pointless, helmet and shoulder guards. But the rest just appear to be as the rest of the clothing.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
He went from getting destroyed by Nyriss, with Meetra's help, to making every single person on the dark council scared of his presence, thats a drastic improvement on his part, as Nyriss wasn't even the strongest person on the Dark Council back then.

Because he's the immortal Emperor's Wrath and thus you're f#cked no matter what you do. The enigma and fear surrounding such a figure isn't restrained to Scourge either, as the second Wrath also instantly cowed the Dark Council despite Baras being right there. The Imperial Guard have the same mysteriousness and fear themselves.

Also, the Dark Council that replaced Nyriss' Dark Council was not nearly as powerful, were essentially the Emperor's bitches, and those Scourge saw going by throughout his centuries, didn't impress him at all, a stark contrast to Darth Nyriss herself.

Originally posted by AncientPower
It was difficult and she gives up even trying when T3 starts beeping at her. Also a trance has nothing to do with meditation. She was trying to achieve enlightenment in the prior example via meditation, whereas in the second she was in a trance designed to cleanse her mind of emotions. What horrifically poor logical process did you go through to think they were the same thing?

Because they are basically the same thing. They she's trying to do different things doesn't mean its not basically the same methods to do so.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Are you really THIS thick? The planet is a void of annihilation that did exactly the same thing to everything Vitiate absorbed in the ritual, it isn't a metaphor you bimbo. How the hell is a metaphor worse than Malachor V? Did you even read the damn quote?

Its a metaphor in how badly it made her feel. It wasn't literally pulling her apart you idiot. Its constantly says "it was like x" because they weren't literal things happening to her. It was worse than Malachor because it caused her to react more strongly "Her body reacted with a revulsion so strong she felt physically ill. Her mind briefly tried to imagine what had happened to cause such an abomination, then recoiled from the answers. Her mind went blank and her body numb." but she wasn't actually going to freaking disintegrate. Thats ****ing stupid. Revan was freaking unconscious on Nathema and didn't evaporate from "The VOID!". Meetra specifically identifies the threat of Nathema as being to her sanity, not her physical body.

And even if we do take it literally... so what? It didn't physically harm her, it didn't mentally scar her, it didn't permanently affect her ability to use the Force. What specific thing do you think it did to her, why do you think that this actually affected her performance that she couldn't recover from it and what evidence to you have to prove that?

Because if you can't answer those questions I'm pretty much just going to take it as a concession on your part and a waste of my time.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Her saying she'll be okay is just her reassuring T3 of her health so he'll decipher data, how can you possibly think that Meetra Surik is surviving that and then is absolutely fine afterwards? Not to mention the ensuing four days of a total lack of sleeping and eating isn't going to simply worsen the after effects? You realise Palpatine after a few weeks of the same was on borderline physical shutdown, right?

She says that she's fine, is how I possibly think that. Her opinion > yours. There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING indicating she suffered a lasting impact from it. You're entirely fabricating this out of thin air. You have no evidence at all that it continued to play a part in the novel. And of course those 4 days wouldn't worsen the effects. She had 2 days prior to that to recover and she was specifically sustaining herself with the Force so she didn't suffer at all. When someone is actively taking care of any negative effects with the Force.... usually they aren't suffering from any negative effects. I can see how that could be difficult to understand though.

A few weeks is a significantly longer time than 4 days.

Originally posted by AncientPower
I also like how you try to call me out for not mentioning that she had two initial days... after quoting me mentioning exactly that. I also love how you assume two days is going to fully heal something that bad when something as relatively minor as Force lightning has effected other Jedi for weeks before fully healing it.

I was talking about the 2 days she spends on Dromund Kaas after arriving there (plus the time to meet Scourge). Easily enough time to get a bite to eat, book into a hotel and have a nice relaxing bath to ease off the shivers she was clearly getting wrecked by.

Lmao "something as relatively minor as Force lightning" she says. As if an actual physical injury is someone easy to heal than.......

You know I actually tried to think of what it is you think Nathema did to her and I really can't because it literally did nothing. Did it effect her spiritually? Or physically? Or like, mentally maybe? Because she certainly wasn't affected in any of those ways that she couldn't easy fix in a few days.

Originally posted by AncientPower
The point being that Meetra is not nearly 100%, whereas Scourge had available amps at his disposable in both fights. Yet Meetra still outperforms him both times by fairly drastic degrees.

She actually doesn't, another thing you're fabricating. She wasn't really affected at all and definitely not worse than she was on Malachor where her best feats took place.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Lord Scourge loses his ability to feel emotions altogether and thus loses his dark side gorging ability and thus his biggest mark for potential is taken as a price of immortality.

This is a flat out lie.

Originally posted by AncientPower
1,100 serious combats over 300 years isn't impressive by any margin compared to elite army busters like Meetra Surik or Revan.

Wrong. The point of the 1,100 opponents is that is gives Scourge an almost unparalleled level of experience in combat compared to others and a complete understanding of dueling.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Obviously Scourge got a lot better but your claim that he's essentially somehow doubling his combat prowess sounds like an overestimate to me. Because really that is how far he's going to need to get to improve that drastically.

He needs to be twice as powerful as he was in Revan to beat Meetra?

haermm

>Hyperbole
>Stupid
-----
>Lord Scourge performs comparatively poorly to Meetra throughout the novel
>Lord Scourge is rendered numb to emotion in the months following Revan.
>Lord Scourge's 'great potential' is his ability to gorge on emotion.
>Lord Scourge can shitstomp Meetra.

I'm done with the Neph TOR wank, thanks very much.

Concession accepted.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Because he's the immortal Emperor's Wrath and thus you're f#cked no matter what you do. The enigma and fear surrounding such a figure isn't restrained to Scourge either, as the second Wrath also instantly cowed the Dark Council despite Baras being right there. The Imperial Guard have the same mysteriousness and fear themselves.

Also, the Dark Council that replaced Nyriss' Dark Council was not nearly as powerful, were essentially the Emperor's bitches, and those Scourge saw going by throughout his centuries, didn't impress him at all, a stark contrast to Darth Nyriss herself. No, they were scared of SCOURGE, when SCOURGE came around because HE was that powerful, with or without Vitiate getting involved.

Thats also because Scourge had just improved THAT much.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
No, they were scared of SCOURGE, when SCOURGE came around because HE was that powerful, with or without Vitiate getting involved.

Thats also because Scourge had just improved THAT much.

Prove it

Whether or not AP's right, her interpretation's a valid one. You're way too cocky for such a low tier debater

Why is everyone so mean on this forum? Calm down.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
Why is everyone so mean on this forum? Calm down.

no

Originally posted by Selenial
no Do you like my Luminara profile?

Originally posted by |King Joker|
Do you like my Luminara profile?

Much better than that boring ***** you had before tbfh

****ing love Luminara

Originally posted by Selenial
Much better than that boring ***** you had before tbfh

****ing love Luminara **** off

Indeed, she's underrated in every aspect.

Previous avatar was better, current sig is great.

Originally posted by Selenial
Prove it

Whether or not AP's right, her interpretation's a valid one. You're way too cocky for such a low tier debater I'm not the best, but no one here thinks too highly of your opinion either. I don't think you've ever won a single argument or thread since you joined KMC.

In short, no one cares what you think.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
**** off

Indeed, she's underrated in every aspect.

Indeed, she is mad intelligent, even tried to make sure Ahsoka died on Geonosis

Top class gal

Originally posted by Jmanghan
I'm not the best, but no one here thinks too highly of your opinion either. I don't think you've ever won a single argument or thread since you joined KMC.

In short, no one cares what you think.

http://i.imgur.com/2qNqF2Y.jpg

Originally posted by Selenial
Indeed, she is mad intelligent, even tried to make sure Ahsoka died on Geonosis

Top class gal You should be worshiping Ahsoka, she's the ***** that saved Luminara's ass from being skewered. uhuh

Regardless of your opinion on Selenial, Jman, you still have to provide proof that they were scared of Scourge himself.

People seem to be forgetting that Vitiate made Scourge the Wrath literally after Meetra's death and Revan's re-capture. Being the Wrath really isn't that impressive, considering how meh Scourge was when he became the Wrath. The next DK obviously didn't take 300 years to be assembled, so I seriously doubt they feared Scourge's prowess more than they feared his actual title.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
I'm not the best, but no one here thinks too highly of your opinion either. I don't think you've ever won a single argument or thread since you joined KMC.

In short, no one cares what you think.

Plenty care. You care because you replied.

Originally posted by Petrus
Regardless of your opinion on Selenial, you still have to provide proof that they were scared of Scourge himself.

People seem to be forgetting that Vitiate made Scourge the Wrath literally after Meetra's death and Revan's re-capture. Being the Wrath really isn't that impressive, considering how meh Scourge was when he became the Wrath. The next DK obviously didn't take 300 years to be assembled, so I seriously doubt they feared Scourge's prowess more than they feared his actual title. Because after destroying the best of the Dark Council, HoT fought Scourge.

He had grown since all those battles.

With that in mind, do you think Meetra could have taken Nyriss on an even playing field? I don't.

You guys don't think of all the shit that happens in these time differences and how big of an effect they have on characters, its just hard to believe that Scourge is mediocre 300 years later, same with Revan.

After being drugged up, Revan was able to completely deflect Nyriss' lightning after making Meetra and Scourge look like a joke, in all that time being the Emperor's Wrath, Scourge never surpassed Nyriss???

Lolwut??

Originally posted by |King Joker|
You should be worshiping Ahsoka, she's the ***** that saved Luminara's ass from being skewered. uhuh

So she could die trying to heal Clones?

pls, an heroic death would have been a mercy.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Because after destroying the best of the Dark Council, HoT fought Scourge.

He had grown since all those battles.

With that in mind, do you think Meetra could have taken Nyriss on an even playing field? I don't.

You guys don't think of all the shit that happens in these time differences and how big of an effect they have on characters, its just hard to believe that Scourge is mediocre 300 years later, same with Revan.

After being drugged up, Revan was able to completely deflect Nyriss' lightning after making Meetra and Scourge look like a joke, in all that time being the Emperor's Wrath, Scourge never surpassed Nyriss???

Lolwut??

Scourge was not impressed by the next members of the DC nearly as much as he was by Nyriss. Also, as it's been said before, the 300 years mean very little. Yoda was 900 years old, Sidious was less than 100. It means shit. When you peak, you peak. Only thing you gain is experience.

I'm not saying he's mediocre, and he obviously improved, but Scourge should've done better than Meetra against Nyriss considering the circumstances, and Meetra outperformed him despite being at a great disadvantage.

And the fact that the Wrath II only had to defeat Baras in front of them to impress them and to be accepted as the Wrath pretty much demonstrates you are not necessarily superior to all of them in order to be the Wrath, unless you think the Wrath II > Nox or literally every DC member.

Originally posted by Selenial
So she could die trying to heal Clones?

pls, an heroic death would have been a mercy. Maybe she had a badass standoff with the clones in canon before being captured.

Maybe she was destroying them all Pong Krell style and they had to call in an orbital strike or some shit to subdue her carnage

So many possibilities

Originally posted by Petrus
Scourge was not impressed by the next members of the DC nearly as much as he was by Nyriss. Also, as it's been said before, the 300 years mean very little. Yoda was 900 years old, Sidious was less than 100. It means shit. When you peak, you peak. Only thing you gain is experience.

I'm not saying he's mediocre, and he obviously improved, but Scourge should've done better than Meetra against Nyriss considering the circumstances, and Meetra outperformed him despite being at a great disadvantage.

And the fact that the Wrath II only had to defeat Baras in front of them to impress them and to be accepted as the Wrath pretty much demonstrates you are not necessarily superior to all of them in order to be the Wrath, unless you think the Wrath II > Nox or literally every DC member.

Scourge had enormous potential though. Even if he peaked very early, he still would have improved substantially and he gained an amp from Vitiate as well as bio-chemical enhancements. It's inarguable that he would have massively improved in those 300 years in terms of power and ability.

"Only had to defeat Baras"? Baras at the time was considered nearly indestructible and by all accounts was superior to any living Dark Council member. They were essentially letting him declare himself Emperor unopposed. The Wrath certainly is superior to any on the Council except Nox and Nox wasn't a member at that point.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
I'm not the best, but no one here thinks too highly of your opinion either. I don't think you've ever won a single argument or thread since you joined KMC.

In short, no one cares what you think.
Lulz

Originally posted by Nephthys
Scourge had enormous potential though. Even if he peaked very early, he still would have improved substantially and he gained an amp from Vitiate as well as bio-chemical enhancements. It's inarguable that he would have massively improved in those 300 years in terms of power and ability.

"Only had to defeat Baras"? Baras at the time was considered nearly indestructible and by all accounts was superior to any living Dark Council member. They were essentially letting him declare himself Emperor unopposed. The Wrath certainly is superior to any on the Council except Nox and Nox wasn't a member at that point.

I don't mean the only in a "he was a weak" kind of way, I mean he didn't need to defeat them, just Baras. That's all they had to see to accept the Wrath. I seriously doubt every CM considered themselves below Baras, and it should be noted that Marr states they'd stay out of the Wrath's way if he stayed out of theirs. It's not exactly a "shit we're so afraid of you" statement.

Yeah, that doesn't make any sense because unless Baras was powerful enough, no one would accept him as an avatar for Vitiate, which is what the Voice is supposed to be. It doesn't matter if they believe it or not. He just needs to be powerful enough to make that believable.

Yes, but they weren't exactly convinced of him being the Voice, so it means they doubted his power. That's why the let the Wrath fight him in the first place.

They let the Wrath in because Vowrawn let them in, and Vowrawn already knew Baras wasn't the Voice of the Emperor. He also called Baras nearly indestructible, so that's not really a point in your favor.

Wasn't that Baras with the Sel-Makor amp, that he later lost? mmm

No, this is supposed to be Baras even without the amp. With the amp he's supposedly just plain invincible. Which is retarded, but again, this is about what the Dark Council thinks. Not that Sel-Makor's amps help the other randoms in TOR much.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
They let the Wrath in because Vowrawn let them in, and Vowrawn already knew Baras wasn't the Voice of the Emperor. He also called Baras nearly indestructible, so that's not really a point in your favor.

It's a point in my favor when Baras calls the DC to defend him and to destroy the Wrath before the fight even starts and they all decline. Why would they decline if the really thought he was actually the Voice? After all, they'd be opposing the Emperor himself. I doubt they'd take that fat chance if they didn't seriously doubt Baras.

Originally posted by Selenial
Wasn't that Baras with the Sel-Makor amp, that he later lost? mmm

He didn't lose it, he lost his connection to Not-Kreia.

Originally posted by Petrus
It's a point in my favor when Baras calls the DC to defend him and to destroy the Wrath before the fight even starts and they all decline. Why would they decline if the really thought he was actually the Voice? After all, they'd be opposing the Emperor himself. I doubt they'd take that fat chance if they didn't seriously doubt Baras.
Lel. They decline because both would bring the Emperor's will, so someone has to be dying. Yes, they would, even if they thought he was the Voice for this very reason. That's the reason Marr states he's staying out of it, because he doesn't want to anger the Emperor.

You might want to go watch that scene again.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Lel. They decline because both would bring the Emperor's will, so someone has to be dying. Yes, they would, even if they thought he was the Voice for this very reason. That's the reason Marr states he's staying out of it, because he doesn't want to anger the Emperor.

You might want to go watch that scene again.

Sure, but considering Marr telling him "as long as you stay out of our way, we'll stay out of yours" would be basically telling it to the Emperor himself, it doesn't at all seem that he really believed the Wrath was actually the Wrath and the Emperor's will itself.

Man, what the **** just happened in this thread.

Originally posted by AncientPower
>Hyperbole
>Stupid
-----
>Lord Scourge performs comparatively poorly to Meetra throughout the novel
>Lord Scourge is rendered numb to emotion in the months following Revan.
>Lord Scourge's 'great potential' is his ability to gorge on emotion.
>Lord Scourge can shitstomp Meetra.

I'm done with the Neph TOR wank, thanks very much.
Neph is one of the biggest fans of KoTOR II content. I am sure that he have high opinion of Meetra Surik. However, he called BS on some of your points like I have in the past, only to be ignored. Perhaps you need to reconsider some of your points?

Originally posted by Petrus
Sure, but considering Marr telling him "as long as you stay out of our way, we'll stay out of yours" would be basically telling it to the Emperor himself, it doesn't at all seem that he really believed the Wrath was actually the Wrath and the Emperor's will itself.
It's very obvious, to everyone, the Wrath is the Wrath. Marr just doesn't care because the Emperor has been absent for several decades.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Concession accepted.

You can't argue a stone. Literally all the evidence is there but you're choosing to champion a "Drew Karpyshyn is an exemplary writer thus he would never leave anything out to be solved by readers." Even though he already stated hr leaves things out such as amps on purpose amd leaves that to the aforementioned readers, I.E. Us.

I actually think that he's a shit writer and he's way too mediocre to put subtleties like that into his books. If he were any good he would have found a way to imply them intelligently in a way readers could actually recognize. Instead there's nothing and you're fabricating arguments out of your anus.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Scourge had enormous potential though. Even if he peaked very early, he still would have improved substantially and he gained an amp from Vitiate as well as bio-chemical enhancements. It's inarguable that he would have massively improved in those 300 years in terms of power and ability.

Yet his special gift, essentially described as his most powerful asset:


Something that allows him to siphon his enemies' power, something Meetra has met countless times against the Triumvirate:



Was lost in becoming immortal:



Why do you keep ignoring this? Yes the Emperor somehow boosted his combat prowess and he has implants boosting his physicality. But that is merely filling in for his greatest gift in the Force, which was lost in the process of becoming immortal.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I actually think that he's a shit writer and he's way too mediocre to put subtleties like that into his books. If he were any good he would have found a way to imply them intelligently in a way readers could actually recognize. Instead there's nothing and I'm going to sticky fingers in my ears and ignore evidence against my poor dismissal logic.

I like how even after editing that you left in the part of there being nothing to support your theory.

Because you're assuming the Exile would be absolutely fine, after suffering near discorporation into trillions of subatomic particles and having her energy sapped. That is absolutely farcicle, and a red herring isn't helping your logic at all.

She wasn't physically harmed and her energy was fine. You're continuing to make shit up.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Because you're assuming the Exile would be absolutely fine, after suffering near discorporation into trillions of subatomic particles and having her energy sapped. That is absolutely farcicle, and a red herring isn't helping your logic at all.
She wasn't actually nearly split into those particles. She was just feeling the sensation.

Revan and Malak hung around Nathema way longer than her and were fine.

The fact Surik could only handle a couple hours minutes is pathetic on her part.

Remember when they were claiming she spent days on there and freaking Legend pwned them about it? Kek.

Darth Revan and Darth Malak were Dark Siders, I mean I like how you're coming out with that in the face of the fact Revan learnt how to drain in return against similar voids such as Malachor V. Essentially knowing how to counter such effects, something he obviously would've taught Malak. But you wouldn't leave vital information out would you, Ant?

Oh and we have no idea how long she'd actually remained there, she loses her sense of time entirely, unable to recall if she'd been there for hours or not.

Originally posted by Nephthys
She wasn't physically harmed and her energy was fine. You're continuing to make shit up.

You're actually blind, aren't you? She could feel the effects of the Void on her body, mind and spirit. Her willpower was all that kept her together.

This thread really turned into incredible shit

Partially because half the people don't read half the content

eh

I was unaware that being a "Dark Sider" made it easier to recuperate.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Darth Revan and Darth Malak were Dark Siders, I mean I like how you're coming out with that in the face of the fact Revan learnt how to drain in return against similar voids such as Malachor V. Essentially knowing how to counter such effects, something he obviously would've taught Malak. But you wouldn't leave vital information out would you, Ant?
What? Malachor V was an uber powerful dark side nexus that corrupts your mind. Nathema is a void that ****s with your mind because you don't feel anything. There's a massive distinction between the two.

You can't drain something that contains absolutely no Force energy.


They went down "a street" to a three-story building, checked out the building (looking through just one story only took them "a few minutes", T3 downloaded the files on the top floor for "five minutes" and then they left.

It took 30 minutes tops.

Revan knows how to defend against forms of drain, I'm on your bloody thread, given that Nathema is stated to siphon energy then clearly Revan, and by extension his apprentice Malak, would be proficient in the ability to protect oneself from such siphoning.

T3 guided her to a government building, in part of a city, they entered the building, which due to T3's inability to climb stairs took a fairly long time, Meetra goes numb entirely and stands on the spot, unable to focus on anything to keep her stable. They had to find the right information terminal and wait for T3 to finish downloading over 10,000 full reports and documents before they could finally move on and go back to the ship, then get several million kilometers away from the planet until Meetra felt safe again.

lol

Originally posted by AncientPower
You're actually blind, aren't you? She could feel the effects of the Void on her body, mind and spirit. Her willpower was all that kept her together.

What does that actually mean?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
That's the reason Marr states he's staying out of it, because he doesn't want to anger the Emperor.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Marr just doesn't care because the Emperor has been absent for several decades.

So, first you say Marr decides to stay out of it because he doesn't want to anger the Emperor, now you say Marr just doesn't care because the Emperor has been absent for decades...


And Marr would not tell that to the Wrath if he actually thought he was the Wrath, unless you really believe he'd tell the Emperor's official enforcer and by extension the Emperor himself to stay out of their way.