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Full rest/recovery, victor is wins/100

DE Sidious

Trash: Darth Bane
1. Sadow
2. Sadow/Nadd
3. Sadow/Nadd/Kreesh
4. Sadow/Nadd/Ragnos
5. Nadd/Ragnos/Hord
6. Ragnos/Hord/Kun
7. Ragnos/Hord/Kun/Murr
Boss: Ragnos/Kun/Vitiate

Based on hype and accolades, probably does not get past 6. No real way to know, tho.

Hell, I'd like to think 3 and beyond are potential losses, but we don't really know.

> implying Kressh isn't going to get Kolar'd

Not when there's 2 Windu's

> implying Nadd is Windu level

>implying Sadow isn't 2 Windu's

> implying Sadow is even 1

>implying

>an hero timing

Skillz, if you get a perm ban and come back as a sock, it'll still never be the same.

Stop please.

http://i.imgur.com/Tvq96go.png

Glad to know you guys still as wacky as ever......

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Glad to know you guys still as wacky as ever......

Wacky? That's a word for it. Too nice though, especially for you.

Ragnos solos via holistic intent which seems to be a staple argument for Sidious fans. Someone who strikes fear in the heart of a post DE Luke and his disciples

Kun would probably kill him with a single Force attack (as per his performance in Jedi Academy vs again, a post DE Luke)

And Murr would probably beat him via holistic intent also.

Oh this is going to be good. #popcorn

And Ellimist, how about you actually reply to Nai, instead of spamming threads like an ejaculating steed to support your confirmation bias.

Registration should've stayed closed.

Dunno where he falls, but he definitely stomps Exar Kun.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Registration should've stayed closed. The same can be said about your sister's Labia

I'm sure someone who can move so fast he appears to teleport and can create force storms on a whim would stomp my sister's labia, yes.

Just as he would Exar Kunt.

Originally posted by Trocity
I'm sure someone who can move so fast he appears to teleport and can create force storms on a whim would stomp my sister's labia, yes.



That's weird.

Ziggy, haven't you polluted enough forums with your presence already? It's not like you present a sufficient intellectual challenge for anyone to actually engage you in conversation, lmao.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Ziggy, haven't you polluted enough forums with your presence already?

The answer to that question is no. Not nearly enough.



Yes I do. Refer to my reply to Zoltan for starters.

A new cancerous poster?

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Ragnos solos via holistic intent

Seeing as how "holistic intent" pens Darth Sidious as "the most powerful Sith Lord in history" (SW insider #86, New Essential Chronology, Vader: The Ultimate Visual Guide) and "the greatest master of evil ever to use sith power" (Complete Visual Dictionary), and also conveniently sidesteps debates over the reliability of the particular narrator to instead focus on the intent of the author - which would not be to make a subtle point about the fallibility of the in-universe historian who wrote the New Essential Chronology, for example - and further handwaved by your own reliance on Luke's word - no, Ragos dies pretty badly to the Sidious in Revenge of the Sith, let alone the Sidious in Dark Empire.



That, and his vastly superior feats, from mind-wiping populations of trillions to tearing the surfaces off of worlds and swallowing super star destroyers.



And Sidious wouldn't?

It's not like it took every deceased Jedi in history to prevent him from coming back or anything.

But please, go ahead and hang your entire proverbial hat on the implications of Luke, who has never met Ragnos before, and somehow tie this into his being stronger than Palpatine, above far more concrete accolades putting Palpatine above him.



You do realize that DE Luke only beat Palpatine in a duel, with the aid of Force harmony from Leia, right?



Normally I'd assume trolling, but knowing you, this isn't necessarily the case. mmm

Originally posted by Aurbere
Wacky? That's a word for it. Too nice though, especially for you.
Well, I''e gotten a good bit softer ever since I stopped hanging out with you guys, so my word choices will be more "PG" for a while.

Holy shit Ziggy's here? I guess it's time to bring the condoms out.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Seeing as how "holistic intent" pens Darth Sidious as "the most powerful Sith Lord in history" (SW insider #86, New Essential Chronology, Vader: The Ultimate Visual Guide) and "the greatest master of evil ever to use sith power" (Complete Visual Dictionary),

Ellimist, baby, you need to calm down. Despite what you may think, I'm really not that scary. We're in midst of foreplay right now, and I'd prefer to keep you going all night... which doesn't help if you blow your load too soon. So take a few easy breaths, relax and Heed these words - conceal your game till the very-end. Work on picking apart my post before asserting your propositions first. You will lose otherwise, I promise you. Now seen as you've already brought about points that have been quashed for around a decade, there is only this left to say:

Well done for proving that Palpatine (spelling); bless thigh name, is the :

1. Greatest Politico Manipulator
2. Most Evil

And now, show a me quote that put's Sidious above Ragnos in regards to combat, then I'll gladly accept your stance, and even let you kiss me goodnight.



Once again, calm down.

This is your first encounter with me - you're only just loosing your Ziggy-virginity! You don't know what points I'm going to make, neither should you attempt to predict them. More importantly, when you try to refute points that could be brought up, but probably won't, you leave the opponent a nice opportunity to use a different argument altogether. Had I denied the reliability of the historian in question, this might be valid plate of word salad. But as I didn't, it might as well be hot-smoke. The same again, we know full well that Luke's statement is a remark on Ragnos' personal power... can't say the same for Sidious being the greatest master of evil, though.

So thanks for trying, but I'll keep Luke's word tight to my chest right now, while we can hand-wave all of Sidious' statements according to LFL house-rules.
And of course, who better to judge the full extent of Palaptine's personal might against Ragnos' own/ When it only took an inexperienced Luke and Leia, to take him out.




Ellimists' wet dreams aren't a valid source.




And you might want to tell me how any of this helped him in a direct confrontation, where he become one-hand lighter against a mere two people. That is of course, not forgetting how he wasted his only functional clone-body in the process of swallowing a super star-destroyer. It's pretty clear there's nothing vastly superior about Palpatine comparative to anyone, and that probably applies to a rather long list of people who can take him out.



The correct answer is; Sidious didn't, hence why the unborn Anakin solo is present to ruin his sunday.



And seen as Palaptine's spirit couldn't even lift a metal teaspoon, I wouldn't think that banishing his 'spectral form' is going to be a priority for the team. And if it was, Kun one-shots via his engagement with Nadd's ghost. And to be honest, probably does the same to Palaptine's corporeal form - given that the latter can barely deflect a meager Force push.




Seen as you can not refute the proverbial cap on the implications of Luke, who has never met Ragnos before, nor force me to drop it... I don't see why I shouldn't go ahead and hang the entire proverbial hat on the implications of Luke, who has never met Ragnos before. Because, at the very least, it's the only solid accolade that can be considered in this fight.
Which btw, isn't the same as deciding who the greatest master of evil is.



That's great. Now where are they?



Your point is?



You don't know me.

You can get to know me, but it will cost you 30 bucks for one hour.

Exar Kun was ragdolled by Odan-Urr, stalemated by a tree, and his amulet blast did 0 damage to Aleema Keto.

He totes stomps Sidious.

Originally posted by Trocity
Exar Kun was ragdolled by Odan-Urr, stalemated by a tree, and his amulet blast did 0 damage to Aleema Keto.

He totes stomps Sidious.

I'm glad we agree. Exar stomps.

Nice edit to add Exar stomps.

Concession accepted on you agreeing with my first sentence.

It's not like anything you said wasn't factual, lmfao.

You fell into my trap

Originally posted by Trocity
He totes stomps Sidious.

iwin

"Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history."

"When Yoda crosses sabers with the movie's arch-villain, he doesn't launch into a pinwheeling display of acrobatics, as he did against Count Dooku in Episode II. Instead, Yoda faces the dark side's fury, channeled by the most powerful Sith Lord in history. "Rob Coleman wanted Yoda to feel the power of his enemy," says Wheless, "like a force he's never dealt with before.""

"Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known."


^ it's not like all of these quotes are clearly putting Sidious's power in the context of one on one combat or anything.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Well, I''e gotten a good bit softer ever since I stopped hanging out with you guys, so my word choices will be more "PG" for a while.

so u've become an pussy now?

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Well, I''e gotten a good bit softer ever since I stopped hanging out with you guys, so my word choices will be more "PG" for a while.

It's better this way.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Well, I''e gotten a good bit softer ever since I stopped hanging out with you guys, so my word choices will be more "PG" for a while.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAj26rVWK14

Originally posted by The Ellimist


^ it's not like all of these quotes are clearly putting Sidious's power in the context of one on one combat or anything.

Good, I'm glad things are finally starting to sink in on your end.

Originally posted by Selenial
so u've become an pussy now?
I would have used a more...innocuous euphemism, but yeah - you could say that. <3

Originally posted by Aurbere
It's better this way.
Ehh. It's more boring, but less demanding. Back then, had to keep at least a punchline or one-liner in my back pocket at any given time, or I'll be taking L's for days.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAj26rVWK14

https://66.media.tumblr.com/2ab47b344b026d12239b9bfee1497767/tumblr_inline_nga8pxgOxC1r7blwi.gif

You have been summoned, Janus.

7.

He loses by ever increasing disparities starting from 4.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
https://66.media.tumblr.com/2ab47b344b026d12239b9bfee1497767/tumblr_inline_nga8pxgOxC1r7blwi.gif

You have been summoned, Janus.



Considering Sadow's got the same amulets that gave Exar Kun amplified anger and power, I can see Sadow alone sans PIS giving DE Sidious fits. Add in Nadd and Kressh for the distractions could seal the deal.

http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j361/JanusMarius/amuletrage_zpse099edcb.jpg

http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j361/JanusMarius/Capturewdadawdawd_zpsa43e88ae.jpg

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Considering Sadow's got the same amulets that gave Exar Kun amplified anger and power, I can see Sadow alone sans PIS giving DE Sidious fits. Add in Nadd and Kressh for the distractions could seal the deal.

http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j361/JanusMarius/amuletrage_zpse099edcb.jpg

http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j361/JanusMarius/Capturewdadawdawd_zpsa43e88ae.jpg

http://25.media.tumblr.com/03e7db084bf0fa3ebdb93a1725520902/tumblr_mxz6feUpM91s2wio8o1_400.gif

This generously assumes that the effect would be identical or similar for Sadow as it was for Kun. More tellingly: Sadow's brawl with Ludo Kressh on Korriban, a dark side nexus, while drawing on his power-boosting amulets... gives us a far more conservative depiction of his abilities.

Dude can definitely lay bricks with the best of 'em, but DE!Sidious stomps tbh.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
http://25.media.tumblr.com/03e7db084bf0fa3ebdb93a1725520902/tumblr_mxz6feUpM91s2wio8o1_400.gif

This generously assumes that the effect would be identical or similar for Sadow as it was for Kun. More tellingly: Sadow's brawl with Ludo Kressh on Korriban, a dark side nexus, while drawing on his power-boosting amulets... gives us a far more conservative depiction of his abilities.

Dude can definitely lay bricks with the best of 'em, but DE!Sidious stomps tbh.

Sadow's knowledge and power with the Force put him in position to inherit from Ragnos, a being who kept Vitiate as a baron and whose walking stick was a pocket Nihilus. The same Sadow who enabled Nadd to take over Onderon, Exar Kun to challenge the entire Jedi Order, and who created a Force device which could fight and defeat the Republic on multiple worlds and another which could move the cores of stars.

Considering Sadow and Kressh were dueling for the title and not upright using their near-cosmic level toys to blow each other up at Ragnos' funeral speaks little for their actual combat capabilities. Kun, with little knowledge, became unbeatable with the same amulets and a mere cache of Sadow's knowledge; Sadow, in full possession of both, is an individual to bear feared.

http://i.imgur.com/fU9jYP0.png

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Sadow's knowledge and power with the Force put him in position to inherit from Ragnos, a being who kept Vitiate as a baron and whose walking stick was a pocket Nihilus.

Did you know that if you rearrange the letters M-A-R-K-A-R-A-G-N-O-S, you don't get N-A-G-A-S-A-D-O-W? This also assumes that Ragnos was legitimately stronger than Vitiate in the first place.

Also, Nihilus had the power to drain worlds. The scepter? Not so much. This argument also assumes Sadow has the power of another guy's "walking stick." Which is hell of a leap, even for you.

http://www.gifbin.com/bin/122011/1324316240_cat_jumps_off_balcony_ledge.gif

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
The same Sadow who enabled Nadd to take over Onderon, Exar Kun to challenge the entire Jedi Order, and who created a Force device which could fight and defeat the Republic on multiple worlds and another which could move the cores of stars.

No one questions Sadow's brilliance as an inventor of toys necessary to compensate for his abyssal inadequacies. What bearing that has on his actual abilities is unknown, since what we've seen of his prowess is remarkably... uninspiring.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Considering Sadow and Kressh were dueling for the title and not upright using their near-cosmic level toys to blow each other up at Ragnos' funeral speaks little for their actual combat capabilities.

Nah. Given that they were dueling for the title and all the power therein, they actually have more incentive to fight their absolute hardest, given the ultimate stakes.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Kun, with little knowledge, became unbeatable with the same amulets and a mere cache of Sadow's knowledge; Sadow, in full possession of both, is an individual to bear feared.

http://i.imgur.com/fU9jYP0.png

In light of the fact that Naga Sadow, Exar Kun, and Marka Ragnos are three separate characters, your argument is a bit of a nonstarter.

http://helenalockoutandautoservices.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Out-of-gas-dash.jpeg

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Did you know that if you rearrange the letters M-A-R-K-A-R-A-G-N-O-S, you don't get N-A-G-A-S-A-D-O-W? This also assumes that Ragnos was legitimately stronger than Vitiate in the first place.

1. Sadow was certainly not Ragnos' equal, but in an empire built on Sith traditions, he was the next in line along with Kressh, who seems inferior.

2. Vitiate doesn't seem to like playing second fiddle to anyone. The assumption is either he decided not to press his luck or realized he was not ready to tackle the Sith Lord. Canon notes that Ragnos was incredibly cunning as well as strong in the Force; Vitiate, who conquered his home planet before he could buy a scratch off ticket, nonetheless bowed to him out of prudence or fear.



Nihilus at full power certainly was stronger, but the point remains that Ragnos' sceptre had the same power and implies a strong knowledge and command of the Force. In a society where information is rarely given away free, this is another feather in his hat in terms of Force mastery.

Again, if you think he kept guys like Sadow and Kressh mollified with Game of Thrones' style backroom politics, lol.



Dat red herring tho.

Where the hell did you get this?



1. One of his creations directly aids in his combat ability and Force power. A similar amulet on Kressh aids him in using TK to crush a statue because nerdrage. We have the narrator, third person omniscient, noting that it increases Kun's rage and therefore his power exponentially. I posted the scan above.

Even if he was a complete novice in Force powers (which is unlikely given his standing in a martial cut-throat society), he can buff himself up enough to replicate Kun's feats. Kun, who tanks Force Sever from its ancient Jedi creator and murders people with less effort than this reply takes.

2. Low balling Sadow's duel showings pretends like his other abilities exist in a bubble. Sadow and Kressh had only just begun fighting and after a few exchanges Ragnos' spirit told them to go to their corners.



See above. They hadn't used the full breadth of their powers. Also, we know from TOR (which you didn't play for shit) that ancient Sith have highly organized duels for supremacy, and when those rules are invoked, they minimize certain powers and advantages for the sake of ritualized fairness. See Darth Thanaton/Sith Inquisitor storyline for details.



Actually, Kun's power is directly attributed to Sadow's amulet, which has bearing on the argument at hand. Additionally, Ragnos is a being of immense power and his successors had to likewise be powerful or they could not hope to take power. Sadow seemed entirely confident in his martial abilities and no one argued otherwise. If anything, the other Sith Lords noted he had more Jedi blood in his family tree and was exceptionally powerful as a result. See Golden Age of the Sith for details.

http://66.media.tumblr.com/e95bd2a317c632ad00fce24bbf9385ca/tumblr_mloa08X1v91rq3i3ro1_1280.gif

Is it ever made clear that Vitiate was personally less powerful than Ragnos, and that it wasn't just because Ragnos controlled the empire and its military?

Vitiate was 13. He undoubtedly became more powerful than Ragnos after the Nathema ritual but it's HIGHLY unlikely he even approached Ragnos' status at bar mitzvah age.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
1. Sadow was certainly not Ragnos' equal, but in an empire built on Sith traditions, he was the next in line along with Kressh, who seems inferior.

This is uncontested. The idea that Sadow somehow benefits from Ragnos's accomplishments is contested.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
2. Vitiate doesn't seem to like playing second fiddle to anyone. The assumption is either he decided not to press his luck or realized he was not ready to tackle the Sith Lord. Canon notes that Ragnos was incredibly cunning as well as strong in the Force; Vitiate, who conquered his home planet before he could buy a scratch off ticket, nonetheless bowed to him out of prudence or fear.

This is all speculative and in no way requires that Vitiate's inaction owes to Ragnos's Force powers.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Nihilus at full power certainly was stronger, but the point remains that Ragnos' sceptre had the same power and implies a strong knowledge and command of the Force. In a society where information is rarely given away free, this is another feather in his hat in terms of Force mastery.

That Ragnos has a strong knowledge and command of the Force is uncontested.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Again, if you think he kept guys like Sadow and Kressh mollified with Game of Thrones' style backroom politics, lol.

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/ragnos%20swtor%20codex_zpsyngatq7a.png

http://media3.giphy.com/media/K6VhXtbgCXqQU/giphy.gif

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Dat red herring tho.

Where the hell did you get this?

The Google.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
1. One of his creations directly aids in his combat ability and Force power. A similar amulet on Kressh aids him in using TK to crush a statue because nerdrage. We have the narrator, third person omniscient, noting that it increases Kun's rage and therefore his power exponentially. I posted the scan above.

I'm aware that ancient Sith amulets tend to augment their lackluster power. I'm asking for evidence that the amulets would effect Sadow and Kressh the same way in which they do Kun. Especially since, again, they never display power of remotely that magnitude even with the amulets equipped.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Even if he was a complete novice in Force powers (which is unlikely given his standing in a martial cut-throat society), he can buff himself up enough to replicate Kun's feats. Kun, who tanks Force Sever from its ancient Jedi creator and murders people with less effort than this reply takes.

Or perhaps Kun is more powerful than the likes of Kressh and Sadow and so we cannot, in good faith, assume that they would be able to duplicate his feats.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
2. Low balling Sadow's duel showings pretends like his other abilities exist in a bubble. Sadow and Kressh had only just begun fighting and after a few exchanges Ragnos' spirit told them to go to their corners.

Three full pages are dedicated to the duel before Ragnos's specter intervenes. That could be thirty minutes in comic book time.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
See above. They hadn't used the full breadth of their powers. Also, we know from TOR (which you didn't play for shit) that ancient Sith have highly organized duels for supremacy, and when those rules are invoked, they minimize certain powers and advantages for the sake of ritualized fairness. See Darth Thanaton/Sith Inquisitor storyline for details.

Or they did, and their powers just aren't that epic in the grand scheme of things without further technological aid.

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/kaggath_zpsplxngcld.png

Assuming that Sadow and Kressh's duel counts as a legitimate Kaggath, it's hardly the sort of thing that involves pulling punches. There is no evidence to suggest that they weren't legitimately trying to kill each other and substantial evidence to the contrary.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Actually, Kun's power is directly attributed to Sadow's amulet, which has bearing on the argument at hand. Additionally, Ragnos is a being of immense power and his successors had to likewise be powerful or they could not hope to take power. Sadow seemed entirely confident in his martial abilities and no one argued otherwise. If anything, the other Sith Lords noted he had more Jedi blood in his family tree and was exceptionally powerful as a result. See Golden Age of the Sith for details.

http://66.media.tumblr.com/e95bd2a317c632ad00fce24bbf9385ca/tumblr_mloa08X1v91rq3i3ro1_1280.gif

And again, Kun and Sadow are two distinct characters with asymmetrical abilities and power levels. The burden is on you to prove that Sadow is capable of duplicating Kun's feats when he is neither stated nor depicted to be capable of them.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/280686566820d49470675ed1bd42f04d/tumblr_mm0iyb2y3N1qba8lyo2_400.gif

Get that Khaleesi shit outta here.

You like House Temp?

Nothing about Sadow and Kressh's fight indicates a Kaggath. It was an impromptu fight when Sadow showed up unannounced.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Nothing about Sadow and Kressh's fight indicates a Kaggath. It was an impromptu fight when Sadow showed up unannounced.

Agreed.

Also, a serious welcome back, Moose. Your presence has been missed.

But you will bend the knee.

https://www.starwarshq.com/uploads/monthly_2015_12/palpatine.thumb.gif.ff90b10152612376aaaa405657e0b935.gif

Literally right after the fight Kressh destroys a huge statue by clenching his fist.

but no brick jokes are still funny ha ha

They are pretty funny you gotta admit.

Don't tell me what to do you shitbird.

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/524439139379187712/onTMQR7U.jpeg

A large statue you say? Be still my beating heart.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
A large statue you say? Be still my beating heart.

I love you father.

If you were to measure your love on a scale of brick to large statue, where would you rate it?

A sorcery empowered gauntlet.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
A large statue you say? Be still my beating heart.

http://i.imgur.com/SSanYAb.png

Sidious being the most politically powerful Sith Lord in the galaxy's history was enough to keep Yoda from beating him in single combat. He stomps the entire gauntlet through Force politics.

Not forgetting the being the most evil

No, no, that's not relevant. I'm talking about the quote that says Yoda fought Sidious but couldn't defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history. Sheev was making grand use of his oratorical skills against Yoda on the podiums there.

Of course he couldn't. Sheev has total political control of the galactic senate, the clones who are conveniently locking down Yoda and chasing him... and the fact that killing sheev would create a martyr in the eyes of the galaxy - And at the hands of a Jedi murderer.

Why do you think the ROTS Novel states the fight is over before it began?

Originally posted by SunRazer
Sidious being the most politically powerful Sith Lord in the galaxy's history was enough to keep Yoda from beating him in single combat. He stomps the entire gauntlet through Force politics.

The auto-concession is very humorous indeed

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Of course he couldn't. Sheev has total political control of the galactic senate, the clones who are conveniently locking down Yoda and chasing him... and the fact that killing sheev would create a martyr in the eyes of the galaxy - And at the hands of a Jedi murderer.

Why do you think the ROTS Novel states the fight is over before it began?

Right, because that's what the Encyclopedia was referring to. And every other "most powerful source", even when it precedes or succeeds a reference to dark side power or knowledge. But the fact that skill in politics increases your strength in the dark side is a very useful thing to know. More evidence that Sidious > Vitiate, then.

For that matter, Sidious is so politically powerful that his political power is enough to keep Yoda from beating him in single combat when the Senate isn't even in session.

Moose, the power was coming from Kun's own heart I.E his own power/rage was channeling through the amulet. The text itself states so. Furthermore Exar Kun didn't merely have some of Sadow's teachings, he knew 'all there is to know about the teachings of Naga Sadow' and then advanced them considerably.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Right, because that's what the Encyclopedia was referring to. And every other "most powerful source", even when it precedes or succeeds a reference to dark side power or knowledge. But the fact that skill in politics increases your strength in the dark side is a very useful thing to know. More evidence that Sidious > Vitiate, then.

For that matter, Sidious is so politically powerful that his political power is enough to keep Yoda from beating him in single combat when the Senate isn't even in session.

One clarification: power only refers to politics/rank when it pertains to the Emperor.

Just fyi

Not as if these claims weren't made ten years ago by Nai, I'd assume you'd be long beyond used to them.

I am. Razer isn't, I'm trying to give him some protips.

Nah, I've had enough of Nai to familiarize myself with his antics.

Originally posted by SunRazer
No, no, that's not relevant. I'm talking about the quote that says Yoda fought Sidious but couldn't defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history. Sheev was making grand use of his oratorical skills against Yoda on the podiums there.

This is 10/10 tbh

Originally posted by SunRazer
Right, because that's what the Encyclopedia was referring to.

Yes, I think that is the most logical explanation. It becomes more & more clear when you take into account the most 'correct' state of affairs - the movies themselves as priority. And there is certainly no "defeat" via saber combat or Force powers in those. Yoda makes a tactical retreat because of the clone troopers coming to aid Sidious, of whom do make up a nice part of his power in the form of military.



Seen as you can not prove that the quote in question refers to 'dark powers' or 'knowledge' I don't have to agree with the assumption that it does. If there's a quote literally hailing Palpatine as the most powerful "Force wielder" among the sith lords. than maybe we can have an actual discussion. Although, it still doesn't have to be taken at face value, given people like Darth Sion or Traya, who are probably ahead of Palpatine in respect to Force Powers.



Your snark is much appreciated as is your Reductio ad absurdum, but as far as scholarly debates go this has already been refuted. Because I didn't allow you to carry the original premise to it's conclusion. In that sense, your argument relies on my charity . That I'd be charitable enough to allow points that are heavily in question. To conclude; Sidious can be a domineering historical dude with command of the entire galaxy - but it wouldn't help him in a duel against Darth Krayt.

Lawl

Another-auto concession?

Sion>Sidious confirmed.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Another-auto concession?

Youre misspelling condescension. 👍

Only the powers of the most politically astute Sith Lord in history could summon a half a dozen clone troopers after thirty minutes to look for Yoda's body.

Nah, Yoda gave it his all, but the motion didn't carry.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Only the powers of the most politically astute Sith Lord in history could summon a half a dozen clone troopers after thirty minutes to look for Yoda's body.

I don't see why not Elli, given that anyone Yoda can call for back up are either dead or exiled - due to Palaptine's stranglehold over the galaxy. It's clear to see why Yoda's defeat can be attributed to the situation he's in, rather than a lack of Force power. Which directly refutes the quote's nature.

Yoda tried his best to make a motion killing Sidious, but Sidious's veto power is simply too OP

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Yoda tried his best to make a motion killing Sidious, but Sidious's veto power is simply too OP

The partisanship and gridlock are bullshit, quite frankly.

I think it's quite clear there's nothing to be argued here. Sion vs Sheev anyone?

Even ignoring Sheev's tremendously greater powers and assuming Sion's power makes him unstoppable to Sheev's combat abilities, Sheev is still an amazing manipulater... He convinces Sion to an hero

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Even ignoring Sheev's tremendously greater powers and assuming Sion's power makes him unstoppable to Sheev's combat abilities, Sheev is still an amazing manipulater... He convinces Sion to an hero

So what you're saying is... Sheev really would win the fight by political prowess.

A sound argument dmb

"When Yoda crosses sabers with the movie's arch-villain, he doesn't launch into a pinwheeling display of acrobatics, as he did against Count Dooku in Episode II. Instead, Yoda faces the dark side's fury, channeled by the most powerful Sith Lord in history. "Rob Coleman wanted Yoda to feel the power of his enemy," says Wheless, "like a force he's never dealt with before."

Source: Insider #86: Yoda's Right Arm

I wonder how your sdn brethren think of how you settle for showcasing your stupidity rather than merely concealing and bluffing it elsewhere on the internet.

Insider isn't canon. next

So let me get this straight... there is only one source hailing Palpatine as the most powerful dark-sider, and it is a non-canon source... I think Sheev-zealots are going to have to take notes from DMB's post, and start arguing for his political cunning in battle. Being the greatest master of evil notwithstanding.

Originally posted by The Ellimist


I wonder how your sdn brethren think of how you settle for showcasing your stupidity rather than merely concealing and bluffing it elsewhere on the internet.

Also Elli

This type of attack really isn't necessary. My arguments elsewhere have no baring on this thread. What can I say? I'm sorry I don't see Sheev with the same fan-tinted glasses as you?? As before, he's a cool and strong sith, but don't be upset at the prospect of other stronger and cooler sith lords. Like Sion and Malgus.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Moose, the power was coming from Kun's own heart I.E his own power/rage was channeling through the amulet. The text itself states so. Furthermore Exar Kun didn't merely have some of Sadow's teachings, he knew 'all there is to know about the teachings of Naga Sadow' and then advanced them considerably.

That's not what the text says. I've provided the scan in question and I have the entire comic series if necessary to review any claims to the contrary. Provide a source to directly refute mine please.

Secondly, Exar Kun had six months to plunder the works of Sadow (that which escaped the destruction of the Sith Empire and was developed in exile) and the Jedi library he looted earlier. While he did advance in quite a bit, he's explicitly a novice in many areas. The ritual where he attempts to release his spirit to 'run rampant through the cosmos' notes via narration that he doesn't understand the ritual and is forced to enact it due to lack of time on his part.

The assertion that the amulets amplify power is backed by on-panel narration and evidence. The assertion that they do so only because Kun has the Power of Heart lacks evidence.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
This is uncontested. The idea that Sadow somehow benefits from Ragnos's accomplishments is contested.

The Sith Empire benefits the strong. It's in the Sith code. While cunning and backstabbery is -extremely- common, the point is that those who rise to the top don't do so on mere intellect but on the merit of their own power as well.

You have Ragnos, himself noted as immensely strong in the Force. GAotS supports it. His codex in TOR supports it. And Kreia, a Sith and Jedi historian, supports it. His immediate successors include Kressh and Sadow, themselves surrounded by a Dark Council of power hungry Sith Lords.

Again, let's review the arguments at hand and avoid strawmanning:

1. Sadow is exceptionally strong in the Force.
2. His place in Sith society supports this.
3. His esoteric knowledge of the Force supports this.
4. The fact that he's only checked by Ragnos (his explicit superior) and Kressh (his peer) supports this.

The counter assertion that he is not powerful in face of the above bears some direct refutation. Brick lowballing doesn't work, since DE Sidious was shot in the back and his ROTJ self was benchpressed into a chasm. And his ROTS version was sent over a chair and desk and Yoda beat the ever living shit out of him and disarmed him.

#lowball4tehwin.



Assertion: Vitiate was Ragnos' inferior.

Evidence to support:

1. Narration from Revan.
2. TOR lore.
3. The fact that despite hate-murdering his father and dominating his planet, he did absolutely nothing to challenge Ragnos.

Counter-assertion:

1. Nuh uh.

Evidence to support:

1. .....



Finally?



You forgot to underline power.

Power and strategic discipline exist in concert with each other, and not in a vacuum. This source doesn't dispel that, despite your attempt to imply otherwise.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/4511177-8260256482-QCwGv.png

^ They show fear and subordination before his spirit. If they were merely terrified of his political acumen and shrewdness, they would not do such to his spirit when power hangs in the balance.



I meant the red herring. You've pulled a lot of strange ideas out of my posts.



DLotS narration notes that Kun initially can't control the amulets and he struggles to use them against the Sith Wyrm. Later, when doing things like freezing the entire Senate or controlling the Chancellor like a sock puppet, the amulet sparks or flashes. The same way Kressh's does when he crushes the statue.

Same as this:

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/swd/images/8/8d/Nagakorriban.png/revision/latest?cb=20060319205712

This:

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images? q=tbn:ANd9GcSKX_3FnVs04UWy7D7lu9i4cccLmtuobcETKqbN
d0oBDik-bsuscg

Oh, look what I found:

http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/12/124590/4410612-7068214993-XhfIY.jpg

http://i56.tinypic.com/28mh1rq.jpg



He's possibly better. Certainly head and shoulders better than everyone else in his era, and only matched in physical dueling capability by Ulic. But he's also a neophyte Sith Lord with only six months' of study and training. That fledgling knowledge could make all the difference.

In any case, my point is that the amulets, which were crafted by Sadow and which Kressh also appears to have a duplicate of (or one near enough in appearance and function) explicitly amplify rage and dark side power. It makes Exar Kun, who was unable to fight the massassi, suddenly able to destroy the entire temple and the Sith Wyrm, and Falcon Punch Nadd's previously powerful ghost. If you believe that we can say "No way the creator of said amulet could do such things" when he has the Meditation Sphere and the Corsair starship, two cosmic level Force toys, you are deluding yourself for the sake of advocating Sids.



What does Ockham's Razor tell you?



I'll concede the point for now. This isn't strong enough to merit a response.



See above. The point was to prove Sadow a credible enough threat that he would threaten DE Sidious, especially with backup. There's enough evidence to support that.



That's misrepresenting my argument in an attempt to make it harder to defend. I noted above that the amulets provide amplifying power. There's evidence to support it.

There's tons of scans to support them activating when Force powers are used.

There's a good reason to believe that the creator of said amulets would be able to harness them as well if not better than Exar "I almost died using it the first time" Kun.

There's precisely zero evidence to expect otherwise.

PS my links didn't post correctly and I have to go. The link which didn't load is Kressh and the statue.

OK. I'll check my copy of TOTJ for that particular scan and I'll respond sometime this weekend.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Three full pages are dedicated to the duel before Ragnos's specter intervenes. That could be thirty minutes in comic book time.

Their combat was fierce but short for the spirit of Marka Ragnos appeared to them, telling them of their ancient ties to the Republic and the Jedi Knights and warning them to make their decisions for the future wisely.

Source: The Dark Side Sourcebook

Where are you getting six months from?





In the years of the Great Sith War, Exar Kun learnt:

As far as mastery of sorcery is concerned he is nothing like a novice:

Originally posted by AncientPower
Where are you getting six months from?





In the years of the Great Sith War, Exar Kun learnt:

Six months is the chronology from the comics itself. Unless a supplemental material retconned that, Kun's reign as Sith Lord lasted six months total. The Great Sith War began and ended in 3996 BBY, and the comics IIRC explicitly state six months. Star Wars has an odd way of pretending like mastery takes minutes when it takes a long long time. Unless Kun spent six months straight on speed, never sleeping, always improving and learning, he couldn't hope to approach years of practical experience on behalf of actual Sith Lords, the very same ones upon which his power is built.

But kudos for the sources you provided. Nice change of pace for the norm around here.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Six months is the chronology from the comics itself. Unless a supplemental material retconned that, Kun's reign as Sith Lord lasted six months total. The Great Sith War began and ended in 3996 BBY, and the comics IIRC explicitly state six months. Star Wars has an odd way of pretending like mastery takes minutes when it takes a long long time. Unless Kun spent six months straight on speed, never sleeping, always improving and learning, he couldn't hope to approach years of practical experience on behalf of actual Sith Lords, the very same ones upon which his power is built.

But kudos for the sources you provided. Nice change of pace for the norm around here.

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia has evidently retconned that, the war took years before it ended.

Beyond that we already have canonical statements proving that Exar Kun wasn't just a master of alchemical and sorcery practices like Naga Sadow, but he advanced Sadow's own knowledge.

Not to mention the vast display of sorcery based powers he has used, which is still referenced as only some of his powers according to the Jedi Academy Sourcebook.

Beyond that Exar Kun had knowledge from the Dark Holocron, the Chamber of Anquities in the Great Library on Ossus, the Tedryn Holocron and more.

TBH it is utterly retarded to think the whole conflict only took 6 months. Theres no way Kun could do all the shit he did in that timeframe.

Not that the amount of time they've studied the force has ever been relevant in the lore. Nyriss probably studied Sith sorcery longer than Kun has been alive, but Kun would laugh at her relative ineptitude. Some would even say Kun is comparable to Vitiate, who's studied the dark side/Sith sorcery for 40-50 of Kun's lifetimes.

That's just because different people learn at different rates in different contexts, like in real life.

I agree, though if we're talking about sheer prodigy, I'd argue Vitiate is just as prodigious as anyone, and moreso than any of the ancient Sith. TOR don't give a **** about your logic and reason.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
That's just because different people learn at different rates in different contexts, like in real life.

Its not just learning. Kun built a ****ton of temples, went on an alchemy splurge, created his new lightsaber and learned how to use it and did a ton of other shit I can't remember.

With an empire he can't build some temples and a lightsaber?