Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Legends.

1. Force
2. Sabers
3. All-out

ANH Ben faced Vader nearly evenly, yet RotS Obi Wan was tooled and ragdolled by Dooku. Is Obi Wan stronger in ANH, is Vader below Dooku, or what?

1) ANH wins
2) RotS stomps
3) RotS stomps

1) ANH
2) RotS
3) RotS

RotS.
RotS.
RotS.

lol, ROTS Obi shit stomps all three; what did old ben ever do with the Force other than deception and guile, he never once used it during battle as amped up as Obi Wan did against Anakin/Vader

Maybe because Old Ben < Vader in Force powers? Also, it's confirmed Kenobi had a growth in power from RotS and ANH over the years, IIRC. So yeah.

Is it? Can you post the quote Wolf?

I dunno if Zenwolf can , but I can:

Originally from the A New Hope Novelisation
"This is a fight you cannot win, Darth. Your power has matured since I taught you, but I too have grown much since our parting."

I'm pretty sure he's referring to the training he received from Qui Gon there Wo-MythLord.

LMAO.
Denser than a Neutron Star, per usual.

Originally posted by Syndicate
I'm pretty sure he's referring to the training he received from Qui Gon there Wo-MythLord.

Which training? Ghost Jinn or TPM Jinn? Because the latter would make no sense because, y'know, he's talking about him and Vader's power growth "since their parting" which happened a while after TPM.
If you're referring to Ghost Jinn, that still wouldn't change much. One of the running themes in Star Wars is "knowledge is power" and Kenobi is clearly making a statement of his power growth, since he's comparing it to Vader's own growth in power, i.e. why he says Your power has matured since I taught you. So yeah, he grew in power.

Speaking of Ghost Jinn.

Knowledge increases your options but I don't think it necessarily increases your overall raw power in the Force. Given Kenobi's demonstrations up to that point I don't believe his raw power increased all that much if at all. Regardless the Force round is talking about only being capable of using the Force in a combative sense and I feel it's likely RotS Kenobi who was a wartime general is going to be quicker when it comes to erecting defenses and pressing an attack with offensive force abilities which would allow him to take the Force round even if he did become more powerful up to the OT.

Knowledge, in general, also apparently increases power. Dooku gained power just by accessing the knowledge of the Dark Holocron and the holocron of Darth Andeddu, the entire Season 2 finale of Rebels kept saying how knowledge is power, Plagueis and Sidious hold that belief, etc. I see no reason not to assume Ben spending years learning new Force techniques -- ones that would strengthen his connections to the Force, if anything -- shouldn't grow in power by at least a somewhat noticeable margin. Especially not when he himself has noted such a growth.

Not sure what you're pulling out of your ass now, but Kenobi kept his reflexes in-tune and actually did excercise, even if he didn't neccessarily face a foe in many years:

Taken from: Life and Legend of Obi-Wan Kenobi
It was fortunate for Ben that he had continued his Jedi exercises on Tatooine, that he had not allowed his reflexes to become dull.


So in a Force round, there really is nothing suggesting RotS Kenobi -- who you've previously argued wasn't fast enough to put up a Barrier that can contain a, wait for it, whipcrack of power from Dooku -- would be quicker on the draw than Ben.

"Knowledge is power." Is a saying in the real world and often true though it doesn't nessecarily refer to personal power.

Dooku grew in power by opening a holocron?

Well not techniques plural. One technique, so that he could continue to train Luke if he passed on.

He notes Vader's maturity in the Force most likely because he's become a more knowledgeable more stable individual then when they lost met. Obi Wan growing closer to the Force by learning how to become one with it would indicate a growth in maturity in the Force to me as well. I don't believe that means he nessecarily grew in raw power or combative capability.

I've read the quotes your referring to and its accompanying novel. His physical reflexes flagged regardless but that's not what I'm referring to. I'm referring to the ease in which he'd employ the Force combatively which logically by RotS he should have been better at doing having had to fight many dark side adepts and using the Force in combat against droids and other CIS forces. The Force is like any muscle or skill. If you don't use it you lose it.

Whatever RotS Kenobi's reflexes are in regards to the Force Old Ben's are worse since he hasn't had anybody to use combative applications of the Force on while RotS Kenobi did.

Originally posted by Syndicate
"Knowledge is power." Is a saying in the real world and often true though it doesn't nessecarily refer to personal power.

But it seems to be quite literal in the Star Wars mythos.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Dooku grew in power by opening a holocron?

By growing in knowledge from the holocron, yes.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Well not techniques plural. One technique, so that he could continue to train Luke if he passed on.

A technique that would've strengthened his presence in the Force.

Originally posted by Syndicate
He notes Vader's maturity in the Force most likely because he's become a more knowledgeable more stable individual then when they lost met. Obi Wan growing closer to the Force by learning how to become one with it would indicate a growth in maturity in the Force to me as well. I don't believe that means he nessecarily grew in raw power or combative capability.

Given that other sources have confirmed ANH Vader > RotS, Mustafar Vader, I don't neccessarily think Kenobi's wrong or referring to a growing stability on Vader. Darth Vader is more stable than he was on Mustafar, but just that alone is enough for a power growth given how emotions coorelate with ones power. And again: knowledge is power. Either way you spin it, both had a power growth.


Originally posted by Syndicate
I've read the quotes your referring to and its accompanying novel. His physical reflexes flagged regardless but that's not what I'm referring to. I'm referring to the ease in which he'd employ the Force combatively which logically by RotS he should have been better at doing having had to fight many dark side adepts and using the Force in combat against droids and other CIS forces. The Force is like any muscle or skill. If you don't use it you lose it.

Whatever RotS Kenobi's reflexes are in regards to the Force Old Ben's are worse since he hasn't had anybody to use combative applications of the Force on while RotS Kenobi did.

Based on what did his reflexes lessen? We know his stamine isn't quite what it used to be, but his strength was enough to make Vader's blows not enough to break his defenses and he kept his reflexes in-tune through practice as per the source above. Basically: I don't want to waste time with your unsupported claims, either give me proof or just hush up.

And why would Kenobi's ability to throw out a Force Push also vein over time, exactly? Sure, Obi-Wan used the more offensive side of the Force during RotS but it's not like he forgot how to use telekinesis in an offensive manner. I'm pretty sure he can still throw out his hand in break-neck speeds to send out a wave and apply it tactically enough. The only reason he didn't use it against Vader is because of Vader's superior power compared to Ben. So, again, I require solid evidence, not your baseless, unsupported claims created by your own head-canon.

Originally posted by MythLord
I dunno if Zenwolf can , but I can: Movies > Novels in canon.

That includes the movie novelization.

Vader also comments that Kenobis powers are weak .... "You're powers are weak old man" clearly referring to his fighting prowess... When Ben says that he's become more powerful than Vader could possibly imagine he was referring to being able to become a Force Ghost obviously

Originally posted by MythLord
But it seems to be quite literal in the Star Wars mythos.



By growing in knowledge from the holocron, yes.



A technique that would've strengthened his presence in the Force.



Given that other sources have confirmed ANH Vader > RotS, Mustafar Vader, I don't neccessarily think Kenobi's wrong or referring to a growing stability on Vader. Darth Vader is more stable than he was on Mustafar, but just that alone is enough for a power growth given how emotions coorelate with ones power. And again: knowledge is power. Either way you spin it, both had a power growth.




Based on what did his reflexes lessen? We know his stamine isn't quite what it used to be, but his strength was enough to make Vader's blows not enough to break his defenses and he kept his reflexes in-tune through practice as per the source above. Basically: I don't want to waste time with your unsupported claims, either give me proof or just hush up.

And why would Kenobi's ability to throw out a Force Push also vein over time, exactly? Sure, Obi-Wan used the more offensive side of the Force during RotS but it's not like he forgot how to use telekinesis in an offensive manner. I'm pretty sure he can still throw out his hand in break-neck speeds to send out a wave and apply it tactically enough. The only reason he didn't use it against Vader is because of Vader's superior power compared to Ben. So, again, I require solid evidence, not your baseless, unsupported claims created by your own head-canon.

Maybe if Kenobi had been studying ancient Jedi techniques but the only thing he learned was how to become one with the Force.

So teachings from the holocron increased his powers, teachings of which we are unaware of while the technique we know Kenobi learned has specifically to do with remaining corporeal after death rather then increasing his power.

As a spirit, yes. As a combative force user in life? I'm doubtful.

We know for sure Vader did, we don't know that the quote is referring to a growth in power on Vader's part and even less so on the part of Old Ben.

0-o It's just logic. As noted in "Kenobi" the Tatooine suns aged him prematurely and after 2 decades Kenobi would be physically inferior to his RotS self.

Employing the force is like employing any other ability. Obviously using TK is going to be easier to do if you're regularly employing it in combat compared to hiding your force presence from Inquisitors and Vader for 2 decades. Again, that's just logic.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
LMAO.
Denser than a Neutron Star, per usual.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Maybe if Kenobi had been studying ancient Jedi techniques but the only thing he learned was how to become one with the Force.

I... never denied that. I'm saying the ability he learned strengthened his power in the Force. And it logically should.

Originally posted by Syndicate
So teachings from the holocron increased his powers, teachings of which we are unaware of while the technique we know Kenobi learned has specifically to do with remaining corporeal after death rather then increasing his power.

Um, we do know the teachings of the holocrons Dooku used(at the very least we know of what Andeddu's holocron can teach you) and it's still not quite as much knowledge as being able to switch freely from the living and cosmic Force.

Originally posted by Syndicate
As a spirit, yes. As a combative force user in life? I'm doubtful.

How come? As a Force user overall, to do such a thing, would mean he's grown in the Force. That's logic.

Originally posted by Syndicate
We know for sure Vader did, we don't know that the quote is referring to a growth in power on Vader's part and even less so on the part of Old Ben.

Um, the quote directly says how Vader's power matured and Obi himself experienced a growth in power. Unless Vader's power went to college and got a job, it means he's grown in power. Given he's comparing himself to Vader when he says he's grown, then that means his own power has grown. Again, that's just logic.

Originally posted by Syndicate
0-o It's just logic. As noted in "Kenobi" the Tatooine suns aged him prematurely and after 2 decades Kenobi would be physically inferior to his RotS self.

And The Life and Legend of Kenobi specifically notes how Obi-Wan counter-balanced that by keeping up with his Jedi training. And again, his strength was enough that Vader couldn't break through his defenses and his speed was enough that if Vader's attention faltered, he could kill him quickly. And I don't think I need to list Vader's speed feats to show why that's impressive. Either way you spin it, Ben is at least comparable to his RotS self in everything bar stamina and there's no noticeable drop in reflexes for him not to errect a Force Barrier or thrust his hand forward to throw out a push against his younger self. Now quit grasping at straws, please.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Employing the force is like employing any other ability. Obviously using TK is going to be easier to do if you're regularly employing it in combat compared to hiding your force presence from Inquisitors and Vader for 2 decades. Again, that's just logic.

Not really. The Force doesn't need as much training as, say, a lightsaber does. To master Niman, for example, takes one a decade of practice. If you're powerful enough, the natural flow of the Force in you is enough. We've seen this many times that beings who haven't used the Force for an even longer period of time than Ben can immediately throw out Force Pushes without batting an eyelash. Karness Muur would be one of the best examples.

ANH Ben wins 1, loses the others.

Originally posted by MythLord
I... never denied that. I'm saying the ability he learned strengthened his power in the Force. And it logically should.



Um, we do know the teachings of the holocrons Dooku used(at the very least we know of what Andeddu's holocron can teach you) and it's still not quite as much knowledge as being able to switch freely from the living and cosmic Force.



How come? As a Force user overall, to do such a thing, would mean he's grown in the Force. That's logic.



Um, the quote directly says how Vader's power matured and Obi himself experienced a growth in power. Unless Vader's power went to college and got a job, it means he's grown in power. Given he's comparing himself to Vader when he says he's grown, then that means his own power has grown. Again, that's just logic.



And The Life and Legend of Kenobi specifically notes how Obi-Wan counter-balanced that by keeping up with his Jedi training. And again, his strength was enough that Vader couldn't break through his defenses and his speed was enough that if Vader's attention faltered, he could kill him quickly. And I don't think I need to list Vader's speed feats to show why that's impressive. Either way you spin it, Ben is at least comparable to his RotS self in everything bar stamina and there's no noticeable drop in reflexes for him not to errect a Force Barrier or thrust his hand forward to throw out a push against his younger self. Now quit grasping at straws, please.



Not really. The Force doesn't need as much training as, say, a lightsaber does. To master Niman, for example, takes one a decade of practice. If you're powerful enough, the natural flow of the Force in you is enough. We've seen this many times that beings who haven't used the Force for an even longer period of time than Ben can immediately throw out Force Pushes without batting an eyelash. Karness Muur would be one of the best examples.

You misunderstand. I mean that while Dooku was learning unknown abilities from Annedu's holocron that allowed him to grow in power we don't know if he became more powerful because he now knew more useful combative abilities or because his raw power actually grew as he gained knowledge ( like you're suggesting. If it was the former then Old Ben would not have become more powerful by learning a non combative ability.

I think it's pretty clear he's referencing his training by Jinn here when he mention his own growth. As for Vader it seems likeliest to me that he's saying Vader has matured as a darksider which makes sense as Vader by this point in the EU has fully embraced the darkside.

His physicals aside from stamina could be brought up to the level of his RotS incarnation with increased augmentation, yes though of course that would empty his force reserves more quickly. Grasping at straws friend? I'm simply trying to impress upon you the idea that as humans get older they start to decline physically.

Karness Muur is a Sith spirit. Personally I don't really know if being out of practice when using the Force applies to them as they're always apart of the Force. Actually I'm kind of interested in the criteria for becoming a Sith spirit in the first place but that's getting off topic. I agree that force users are still capable of using the Force even after decades but it's likely they would simply be slower on the draw then they were during wartime where they were using it in combat constantly.

Sorry if this has already been discussed at length, as I haven't really read the replies - for those who think RotS Obi Wan wins, how come ANH Obi Wan did so much better against Vader did than Obi Wan did against Dooku?

Originally posted by Syndicate
You misunderstand. I mean that while Dooku was learning unknown abilities from Annedu's holocron that allowed him to grow in power we don't know if he became more powerful because he now knew more useful combative abilities or because his raw power actually grew as he gained knowledge ( like you're suggesting. If it was the former then Old Ben would not have become more powerful by learning a non combative ability.

The quote says: "enhanced his powers". Meaning, he grew in power. The quote doesn't say "Dooku learned new abilities" it says his "power enhanced".

http://static3.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11117/111178634/4909822-holocron+gives+power.jpg

The definition of enhance is to intensify, increase or improve the quality of something. The knowledge from the holocron isn't just teaching him new powers, it is literally enhancing his power as well.

Originally posted by Syndicate
I think it's pretty clear he's referencing his training by Jinn here when he mention his own growth. As for Vader it seems likeliest to me that he's saying Vader has matured as a darksider which makes sense as Vader by this point in the EU has fully embraced the darkside.

I don't care what he's referencing, he's mentioning his own growth in power. If that was because Jinn trained him then OK, it still doesn't change the fact that he grew in power.

Originally posted by Syndicate
His physicals aside from stamina could be brought up to the level of his RotS incarnation with increased augmentation, yes though of course that would empty his force reserves more quickly.

And, given that he's more powerful now, he has greater reserves to draw upon. Also, if Vader didn't completely tax Kenobi from a 2 minute long duel, then I doubt RotS Obi could do it from just two Force Pushes.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Grasping at straws friend? I'm simply trying to impress upon you the idea that as humans get older they start to decline physically.

And I'm trying to impress upon you the fact that to Force users, especially does who've kept their reflexes in-check like Kenobi, that shouldn't matter. Unless you're taking this fight at baseline physicals which is ridiculous.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Karness Muur is a Sith spirit. Personally I don't really know if being out of practice when using the Force applies to them as they're always apart of the Force. Actually I'm kind of interested in the criteria for becoming a Sith spirit in the first place but that's getting off topic. I agree that force users are still capable of using the Force even after decades but it's likely they would simply be slower on the draw then they were during wartime where they were using it in combat constantly.

So what if he's a spirit? He isn't "one with the Force" nor is he always drawing upon it consistently and he still uses the Force quite effectively against Krayt, one of the most powerful Sith Lords ever, after more than seven thousand years of not applying it combatively.

Originally posted by MythLord
The quote says: "enhanced his powers". Meaning, he grew in power. The quote doesn't say "Dooku learned new abilities" it says his "power enhanced".

http://static3.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11117/111178634/4909822-holocron+gives+power.jpg

The definition of enhance is to intensify, increase or improve the quality of something. The knowledge from the holocron isn't just teaching him new powers, it is literally enhancing his power as well.



I don't care what he's referencing, he's mentioning his own growth in power. If that was because Jinn trained him then OK, it still doesn't change the fact that he grew in power.



And, given that he's more powerful now, he has greater reserves to draw upon. Also, if Vader didn't completely tax Kenobi from a 2 minute long duel, then I doubt RotS Obi could do it from just two Force Pushes.



And I'm trying to impress upon you the fact that to Force users, especially does who've kept their reflexes in-check like Kenobi, that shouldn't matter. Unless you're taking this fight at baseline physicals which is ridiculous.



So what if he's a spirit? He isn't "one with the Force" nor is he always drawing upon it consistently and he still uses the Force quite effectively against Krayt, one of the most powerful Sith Lords ever, after more than seven thousand years of not applying it combatively.

Fair enough but it says directly that it's the holocron enhancing his power rather then the knowledge therein.

I think the growth he's mentioning is the ability he learned, not growth in actual power.

Well that's being contested right now so to use that belief in support of your argument here doesn't mean much until the matter of their comparative power is settled. I didn't say RotS Kenobi could tax him with just 2 force pushes. I'm just mentioning his physical reflexes as you brought it up earlier.

I'm taking into account that baseline physical superiority is an advantage over two opponents with equal or near equal power levels.

Well that's debatable actually. Becoming a spirit is just imprinting yourself in the Force. Who's to say Dark Side spirits don't do the same thing Yoda, Obi Wan and Qui Gon did just in a Dark Side manner? Again as a spirit your not tied down by a physical form and I imagine since everything in the world you're affecting and affected by is formed on the basis of the Force your abilities aren't going to stagnate in the same way if at all.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Fair enough but it says directly that it's the holocron enhancing his power rather then the knowledge therein.

Well, unless you're Rivan, the power of a holocron is insignificant. The only thing it can offer Dooku is knowledge.

Originally posted by Syndicate
I think the growth he's mentioning is the ability he learned, not growth in actual power.

Given the fact that he's comparing his growth to Vader which in the quote is power-related, he's talking about power. I don't get why you're just painfully grasping at the cheapest of excuses to get this through your head.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Well that's being contested right now so to use that belief in support of your argument here doesn't mean much until the matter of their comparative power is settled. I didn't say RotS Kenobi could tax him with just 2 force pushes. I'm just mentioning his physical reflexes as you brought it up earlier.

Right, and so far your arguments either consist of moving the goalpost onto irrelevant tangents like the point I have the pleasure of countering now, or grasping at straws.

Originally posted by Syndicate
I'm taking into account that baseline physical superiority is an advantage over two opponents with equal or near equal power levels.

Good thing that's not the case here.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Well that's debatable actually. Becoming a spirit is just imprinting yourself in the Force. Who's to say Dark Side spirits don't do the same thing Yoda, Obi Wan and Qui Gon did just in a Dark Side manner? Again as a spirit your not tied down by a physical form and I imagine since everything in the world you're affecting and affected by is formed on the basis of the Force your abilities aren't going to stagnate in the same way if at all.

And here's the problem with that: Karness Muur was trapped in a Talisman, incapable of being freed and imprinting himself in the Force. Also, it's kinda against Sith teachings to even imprint yourself onto the Force as a spirit, but rather live on. So between him being trapped and likely not wanting to do the Jedi-ish thing of becoming One with the Force, there really is nothing suggesting he wouldn't be hindered after seven millenia of not using the Force if Kenobi was hindered at it after less than two decades. But since we know that isn't the case with Muur, it's hardly the case with Ben. Are we done running around in useless tangents, now?

Quit it Wolf. At least try to be civil or I'm not going to debate you. I'll have a response up in a bit. Going to the movies.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Quit it Wolf. At least try to be civil or I'm not going to debate you. I'll have a response up in a bit. Going to the movies. Independence Day Resurgence ?

Nope. Zootopia at the cheap theaters.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Nope. Zootopia at the cheap theaters.

I'm currently and eagerly awaiting the announcement of a sequel!

Originally posted by Syndicate
Nope. Zootopia at the cheap theaters. Decent. I'm going to see resurgence tonight so another Sci Fi franchise to compare to. Ooolala.

I like that Pixar didn't give up in the face of the Disney giant. They just keep swimming and pumping out quality flicks.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Quit it Wolf. At least try to be civil or I'm not going to debate you. I'll have a response up in a bit. Going to the movies.
I didn't insult you did I. Just saying the hard truth that you are grasping at straws. Enjoy Zootopia

In the Death Star novel we get the duel from Vader's PoV, and he definitely thinks his master has declined.

That's because Vader is too stronk now.

Yeah, he thinks that initially. Then he worries if he can win and says Ben can kill him in the blink of an eye if his attention falters for just a bit.

ANH Kenobi sucked.

Originally posted by MythLord
I didn't insult you did I. Just saying the hard truth that you are grasping at straws. Enjoy Zootopia

Nah you're assuming you understand my stance and then declaring your assumption in an attempt to show off your superioirty. It's quite annoying and I'd appreciate it if you stopped otherwise these will once again become the only medium we actually interact in.

Edit: Alright, see you all in an hour.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Nah you're assuming you understand my stance and then declaring your assumption in an attempt to show off your superioirty. It's quite annoying and I'd appreciate it if you stopped otherwise these will once again become the only medium we actually interact in.

Wait, wut? So me countering your statements in order to debate is me insulting you and not keeping things civil? Are you from tumblr... That would explain your sensitivity.

It must be DD's menstrual cycle.

Alright Wolf, we're done here. If after I just spelled out what you're doing and why I don't appreciate it and then blatantly ignore that only to insult me again I don't feel that anything productive is going to be accomplished.

OK, so calling you sensitive is an insult and debating you is an insult?
K, guess I have to agree with boo on this one:
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
It must be DD's menstrual cycle.

Which Obi-Wan is fighting simply as himself and which Obi-Wan is emptying himself of himself?

You mean masturbating?

Nah if I meant masturbating, I would've said killing younglings

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Which Obi-Wan is fighting simply as himself and which Obi-Wan is emptying himself of himself?
Obi-Wan objectively is a shit person post RotS, so that's a sign of being empty. He takes this.

Originally posted by MythLord
Yeah, he thinks that initially. Then he worries if he can win and says Ben can kill him in the blink of an eye if his attention falters for just a bit.

He says all that is true in spite of Kenobi weakening.

I was under the impression that Ben weakened physically and skilfully, but in the Force? The ANH junior novel states that Vader was wrong about Obi-Wan's Force ability diminishing.

Oh really?

Yes, it does.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
He says all that is true in spite of Kenobi weakening.

Weakning as in being physically inferior to his RotS self and being out of practice with a lightsaber. Nothing about his Force powers, and even then there were moments where Ben was giving Vader hell, so yeah my argument stands.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Yes, it does.

Quote?

"He had assumed Obi-Wan's study of the Force had ended long ago, and that his powers had diminished over time. But Vader was wrong."

-- ANH Junior Novel

Fair enough.

Context? Does that refer to his ghost?

It's his musing right after he strikes down Obi-Wan and wonders where he goes. He doesn't know about Obi-Wan's Ghost.