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Force sabers all out

Fight takes place on neutral ground

No one?

Ahsoka wins sabers and all out, Meetra wins Forcu

Sabers: Ahsoka.
Force: Debatable.
All Out: Ahsoka.

Ahsoka wrecks her, honestly.

Drrp

Sabers: Ahsoka stomps- Dueling peak Vader and peak Maul so well is leaps and bounds ahead of Meetra v Nyriss

Force: Ahsoka- Ahsoka telekinetically manhandled the inquisitors (who actually have pretty impressive TK all things considered), shoved Vader, and may or may not have survived that temple explosion, all of which are more impressive than... What?... Having descriptions of Force powers in a campaign guide?

All-Out: Ahsoka- superiority as a duelist and Force wielder

Uh.. Meetra force pushed you a guy... She has one thing lol.

But yeah Ahsoka wins

This thread pleases me.

This thread displeases me

Surik.

Grew more powerful than even Traya in the years after Malachor V, when she reached her prime. She has a technical mastery of all forms of combat, including even Trakata. Can predict all of Ahsoka's moves long in advance. She's greater in unarmed combat than Tano, and is superior mentally.

Meetra Surik is one of the most legendary Jedi heroes, second only to Revan, above the likes of Nomi Sunrider. She was considered to have greatly surpassed Revan's first summation of her 'great potential', which was enough to afford her half of Revan's forces and become Revan's most trusted ally and general in the Wars, instead of Alek. She is also stated to be a powerhouse of destruction years prior to her prime.

Ahsoka is great, but not immediately dying in contests with Maul and Vader is not single-handedly placing her on a pedestal, not when others far lesser than Surik have accomplished similar.

Originally posted by AncientPower
which was enough to afford her half of Revan's forces and become Revan's most trusted ally and general in the Wars, instead of Alek.
Revan gave Surik the half of his fleet that was torn to shreds and no longer loyal to him. He used them as bait on Malachor and let the Mandalorians tear them to shreds so his fleet could come in later and clean up the rest. To add insult to injury, he then activated the Mass Shadow Generator, which exclusively destroyed Meetra Surik's fleet, not his own. Surik was nothing more than a pawn to Revan - following his orders on Dxun that were strategically retarded and forced her soldiers to endure extreme casualties so that the survivors could be more easily broken by Revan's power on Malachor. In contrast, Malak was the legitimate second-in-command of the portion of Revan's fleet that he actually planned on keeping along for the ride, hence why Revan sent Meetra Surik back to the Jedi Council while Malak rode with him to the Unknown Regions.

The tone of the quotes in the Revan novel might implyotherwise, but nothing you quoted directly contradicts the statements made in KotOR II, so nah.

Do you need quotes? I assume you know what I'm referring to.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Grew more powerful than even Traya in the years after Malachor V, when she reached her prime.How did you reach that conclusion?This isn't necessarily an advantage, it certainly makes her a versatile opponent by I'd argue Ahsoka's performances against Maul and Vader suggest greater mastery over her chosen styles.Can she really though? That sounds like a gross overstatement.I'll grant you she's a better unarmed combatant, but superior mentally? What's that supposed to mean?Rather irrelevant considering we can only guess at what esteem Ahsoka would have held if born in the KOTOR era.

That said even as a Padawan she was considered a "Jedi Legend" with "exceptional Jedi skill" regarded as possessing "enormous" potential that saw her granted Padawan status earlier than the norm, and was offered Jedi Knight status at a younger age than Kenobi and Anakin both. So as a prodigy Meetra has no advantages here.Rather a strawman argument there, and who are these far lesser beings you refer to?

Originally posted by AncientPower
Surik.

Grew more powerful than even Traya in the years after Malachor V, when she reached her prime.

Quote?

There isn't one, other than Sion saying Meetra could surpass Traya one day.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The tone of the quotes in the Revan novel might implyotherwise, but nothing you quoted directly contradicts the statements made in KotOR II, so nah.

Do you need quotes? I assume you know what I'm referring to.

If you're referring to Hk-47's guesstimates, then no they are contradictory because the above quotes come from Revan direcly, not just other characters guessing as to his goals.

He even dismisses that by Malachor V he was already corrupted by the dark side. No Gnost Dural's inaccurate historian POV doesn't change the fact that clearly Revan, as far as SWTOR Media is concerned, became Darth Revan because of the Sith Emperor.

Those qoutes are the most up to date and come from Revan's own point of view in the novel, far more accurate depictions of his actual designs. Those designs being that Meetra was such a strong Jedi that, above even the likes of Kavar and Alek, she was given command of half of his forces due to her potential. Revan states she far surpassed the 'great potential' he'd seen in her prior.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
There isn't one, other than Sion saying Meetra could surpass Traya one day.

Observe.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Observe.

AP. You wank characters I like. You're in the bottom half of unpleasent people. If you've got a quote stating her superiority to Traya I'll back you all the way but if not I can't do much here.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
How did you reach that conclusion?

Well at first we have this observation:



So the Exile as of the Jedi Enclave meeting was considered to still be restoring her connection to the Force, Darth Traya then intervenes and butchers all 3(4) of them through complete Force domination.

Then we have this statement:



So yes Traya as of their battle over a geyser of dark side energy, was more powerful. It must be observed that Traya at her most powerful and with a ton of prep time, was incapable of overwhelming Meetra with the Force, otherwise she would have won this contest.

Evidence for this can be analysed here:





So Traya's vast display of telekinetic grip can be, at least temporarily, rendered inert. A very impressive display of Meetra's telekinesis given what Traya herself has done:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/4462732-j5tv4.gif

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/3878242-9f17i.gif

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/3892041-9kaae.gif

Such exceedingly powerful displays of telekinetic domination, yet the Exile was evidently able to defeat the Sith regardless.

This is what is stated by the Sith Lord:



This has quite some merit, as Meetra Surik defeats Darth Traya years before her prime:



So over-all we see that the Jedi Exile Meetra Surik was able to hold her own against Traya's powers in a massive geyser of dark side energy and defeat the Triumvirate leader, then spends the next years growing and reviving the Jedi Order under her leadership. Time in which Darth Sion states Meetra Surik will surpass Darth Traya.

I'll deal with the rest later.

That img on Malachor V never happens anywhere in-game, if you're using cut content, thats great, but its non-canon.

Yeah, that's the worst thing about debating when KOTOR II is involved. Trying to discern actual content from cut content debaters are trying to peddle as legit.

But then...the cut content was suppose to be in the game? Honestly, I'm confused when it comes to this thing, people say one thing, then say another...

It's Obsidian's originally intended content for the game, stop treating it like something to handwave when it's so obviously within Traya's power.

Idgaf, if it's cut content, label it as such then put forward the argument for it being legit.

All cut content wasn't originally supposed to be in the game.

Also, lol@years before her prime. Revan is pretty much right after KotOR II.

Welcome to Nova's Respect Thread, read the thing and stop giving me grief. I didn't even include anything bar adding in Lonna Vash, something accepted by anybody with a basic understanding of Kotor II, she dominates the council with TK whilst monologuing and then drains them.

If you've got anything legit to actually contribute then feel free but getting butthurt about cut content isn't helping anybody.

No one but Beni is in a debate with you, and Nova doesn't determine what content is and isn't valid anymore than you, or anyone else. Either way, I've played the game, thanks.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
No one but Beni is in a debate with you, and Nova doesn't determine what content is and isn't valid anymore than you, or anyone else. Either way, I've played the game, thanks.

So you were wrong, cut content absolutely was meant to be in the game, a basic read of the Prima Game Guide can tell you that much.

Originally posted by AncientPower
It's Obsidian's originally intended content for the game, stop treating it like something to handwave when it's so obviously within Traya's power.

It doesn't matter if it was ORIGINALLY intended to be in the game, it WASN'T in the game.

Therefore it doesn't count.

Therefore it's non-canon.

KOTOR 3 was originally supposed to BE a game, I'm sure they have unused assets from the game, but if someone tried making a game off that, would it be canon? No.

I guess that "Jungle Book" world in Kingdom Hearts is canon to the story of KH.

Ideas, even fully developed ideas, are still ideas, its cut content for a reason, and therefore can't be passed off as law.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
All cut content wasn't originally supposed to be in the game.

Also, lol@years before her prime. Revan is pretty much right after KotOR II. Hell, Revan starts off before KOTOR II even begins.

Originally posted by AncientPower
So you were wrong, cut content absolutely was meant to be in the game.

Then why wasn't it?

I highly doubt people were clamoring for the next release of KOTOR, as it wasn't even that popular when it came out.

And I doubt Lucas or Obsidian were rushing to get it out either.

You're welcome to have an opinion, but I'll stick with the script, Prima Game Guide, and the fact Obsidian would've patched everything we're talking about into the game but LucasArts wouldn't lift a finger. The only reason they cut it out is because LucasArts rushed the game from summer back to the xmas season for a quick dollar.

If you don't like my argument, feel free to not participate.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Then why wasn't it?

I highly doubt people were clamoring for the next release of KOTOR, as it wasn't even that popular when it came out.

And I doubt Lucas or Obsidian were rushing to get it out either.

You just proved you have absolutely no clue about anything we're discussing, concession accepted.

Originally posted by AncientPower
You just proved you have absolutely no clue about anything we're discussing, concession accepted. Discussing cut content. Yes.

You think it showed be allowed to be used as evidence, everyone else disagrees, as they should.

Furthermore, since when does the Prima Game Guide decide what's canon in the KOTOR games?

It covers everything from the Fallout Games to the Dark Souls series.

Originally posted by AncientPower
So you were wrong, cut content absolutely was meant to be in the game, a basic read of the Prima Game Guide can tell you that much.
Notice how I said, "All cut content" as in every thing cut wasn't intended to be in the game. Not that it matters, it isn't in the game. The guide can say whatever it wants.

Here's the thing, if you're going to use cut content, label it as such and then people can debate whether or not it's valid from there.

posting cut content without labeling it as such prevents people who don't accept it as valid evidence from arguing that point of view.

Originally posted by AncientPower
You're welcome to have an opinion, but I'll stick with the script, Prima Game Guide, and the fact Obsidian would've patched everything we're talking about into the game but LucasArts wouldn't lift a finger. The only reason they cut it out is because LucasArts rushed the game from summer back to the xmas season for a quick dollar.

Oh yes, I'm sure it was LucasArts rushing the game out to get that MONAY!

I'm sure Obsidian had absolutely nothing to do with it, at all.

Let's **** up some commas

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Here's the thing, if you're going to use cut content, label it as such and then people can debate whether or not it's valid from there.

posting cut content without labeling it as such prevents people who don't accept it as valid evidence from arguing that point of view.
There's no point in debating that because it's not valid. What Obsidian intended to do doesn't matter at all. Obsidian intended to make a KotOR III. That's obviously not happening.

40 thou now 100 thou
100 thou another 100 thou
300 thou 500 thou
A million let's throw a money shower

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
There's no point in debating that because it's not valid. What Obsidian intended to do doesn't matter at all. Obsidian intended to make a KotOR III. That's obviously not happening.
Oh I'd agree. But even assuming that were a defensible position it should be properly labeled as cut content then defended rather than the copout of passing it off as legitimate content.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Discussing cut content. Yes.

You think it showed be allowed to be used as evidence, everyone else disagrees, as they should.

Furthermore, since when does the Prima Game Guide decide what's canon in the KOTOR games?

It covers everything from the Fallout Games to the Dark Souls series.

You seriously need to stop, because you aren't comprehending this at all, this content is originally intended to be part of the game but was lost due to time restraints. All of the events of the original story is referenced in the Prima Game Guide for Kotor II and provides us with a legitimate reference point as to whst The Sith Lords would have been.

This very content was fixed and ready for implentation but LucasArts didn't want to make the effort of patching PC and Xbox users. The studio has gone on record since 2004 that they would gladly restore Kotor II ( most recently via Aspyr Media).

You can argue semantics all you like but at the end of the day, it is completely irrelevant to my argument which you have utterly failed to acknowledge anything else.

AP's headcannon game is strong

Not as if Traya telekinetically ****ing KOTOR II peeps puts Meetra above Ahsoka in any case.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Oh yes, I'm sure it was LucasArts rushing the game out to get that MONAY!

I'm sure Obsidian had absolutely nothing to do with it, at all.

No, by all means, continue proving my point.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Not as if Traya telekinetically ****ing KOTOR II peeps puts Meetra above Ahsoka in any case.

It is when Ahsoka has never actually dealt with Traya tier Force powers in an actual Force exchange before.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Not as if Traya telekinetically ****ing KOTOR II peeps puts Meetra above Ahsoka in any case.

times 12345678910

Originally posted by carthage
AP's headcannon game is strong

I like how you have to group debate to make a case and then not even attempt to deal with the actual argmment. It pleases me.

Hard to debate someone who is using feats that never actually occurred

Blam

So Traya didn't wreck the Jedi Council? I must have misplayed the original game. I mean really it doesn't matter if it's three or four 'extremely potent' and powerful Jedi High Council members, it is way beyond any of Tano's Force feats.

Wait a moment whilst I laugh at your pathetic attempts at a non-argument.

The inquisitors are honestly more impressive than those council members tbf.

Regardless, Meetra isn't as powerful in the force as Traya. At the least, she's not powerful enough that she could significantly affect Tano with the force.

All of them are masters of lightsaber combat, who've achieved higher understanding and knowledge of the Force via the Force forms. Vrook Lamar can take out DS Exile and her party members with a gesture, infact all three of them can give the Dark Side Exile hard fights. Kavar has extremely potent Force powers that surpass any other High council member bar obviously Atris.

The only remotely comparable Inquisitor is the GI.

And Vrook an stasis'd The Exile prior to his death at the hands of Traya.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Regardless, Meetra isn't as powerful in the force as Traya. At the least, she's not powerful enough that she could significantly affect Tano with the force.

She was clearly powerful enough to contend with Traya's powers or she would've been wrecked like Sion or the Jedi High Council. This was also years before Surik's prime, on a colossal geyser of Dark Side energy at that. Sion's estimate of Surik's potential going forward, was when he was in a perfect position to make that judgement too.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
And Vrook, Kavar and Zez-Kai Ell an stasis'd The Exile, who was visibly caught off-guard, prior to his death at the hands of Traya. Which was prior to the Exile achieving Enlightenment and fully restoring her connection to the Force as stated by Zez-Kai Ell.

I didn't ****ing say that you silly KOTOR 2 fan.

Join the Valk bandwagon again

I was just correcting your statement.

But it says I "originally posted" that. Which I fugging didn't.

Allow Nyriss and her master to enter your heart.

Nyriss who failed to do anything but wreck Scourge, which fugging Xedrix and a pair of acolytes nearly did?

Nyriss didn't wreck Meetra? :Mmm:

Her only superiority lay in physicals. Meetra stands her ground until physically pressed down to a knee, against a focused all-out assault from Nyriss, whereas just prior to that Scourge stumbles backward over a single thrust.

Meetra manages to absorb most of Nyriss' charring lightning but is knocked over by it and she is slow to rise after, this with a mere Force barrier, not a prepared Tutaminis defense. Comparatively, Scourge tries to telekinetically push a distracted Nyriss over, who merely deflected it and then slammed Scourge, sending him head over heels and once again flooring him. At which point he admits utter inferiority.

Pretty big differential don't you think?

Pretty sure the narrator is the one who admits that Scourge and Meetra are utterly inferior, backing up Scourge's acceptance of their inevitable deaths. And being "clearly overmatched", and quickly being forced on to one knee, and being at the mercy of a "crippling cut", and getting knocked on her ass from a single bolt of lightning kind of does imply utter inferiority. Good job Drew, I hope no one completely misconstrues that.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Her only superiority lay in physicals. Meetra stands her ground until physically pressed down to a knee, against a focused all-out assault from Nyriss, whereas just prior to that Scourge stumbles backward over a single thrust.

Meetra manages to absorb most of Nyriss' charring lightning but is knocked over by it and she is slow to rise after, this with a mere Force barrier, not a prepared Tutaminis defense. Comparatively, Scourge tries to telekinetically push a distracted Nyriss over, who merely deflected it and then slammed Scourge, sending him head over heels and once again flooring him. At which point he admits utter inferiority.

Pretty big differential don't you think?

Lmao.

No the fight is from Scourge's point of view which states he can't do anything to stop her coming attack:



Meetra is stated to stand her ground but is overwhelmed and forced down to a knee, which leaves her in an awkward position where her flank is exposed. Scourge again just prior to this gets essentially one-shotted by a focused Nyriss attack:



Nyriss' Dooku+ tier lightning couldn't kill Surik through one of Surik's instant Force barriers, not a focused Force defense. The difference between a barrier and Tutaminis is important Skillz. Of course you wouldn't purposefully forget that:



You also wouldn't forget the environment either, would you Skillz? I mean it's not as if FOTJ Luke Skywalker and Jaina Solo didn't have their reflexes clogged by a Dromund Kaas temple ruin dating from the Old Republic era.

This is funny.

Yeh, people seem to be surprised that a character claimed to be very powerful and one of the greatest of her era, in multiple sources... is actually great and powerful. Almost as if they were holding presumptions of her being utterly average over one overblown fight.

1. I was more referring to the part where the narrator states Nyriss was too powerful. And even though Scourge finds he's powerless to stop it, a single lightning bolt rendered Meetra incapable of doing so as well.

2. Yes, I know that Surik was clearly overmatched and quickly overwhelmed by Nyriss in their lightsaber duel.

3. It was a single freaking bolt. Nyriss's full power, on the other hand, was far too much for Meetra and Scourge to stop or overcome. I also find it interesting that Surik chooses to defend herself with a force barrier as opposed to her lightsaber.

4. I don't care how FOTJ portrays Kaas, only how Drew does, and it's not even close to strong enough that it'd make Meetra > Nyriss otherwise. It sort of goes against authorial intent to believe Meetra in any context is superior to Nyriss.

Lmao.

Meetra held her own unlike Scourge who was instantly beaten, and she was capable of tanking the most potent part of Nyriss' lightning with a barrier, not an actual Tutaminis defense.

So you're grasping at authorial straws to dismiss the fact Dromund Kaas has a very real, very obvious nullifying effect on Jedi that is even attributed to Revan and Meetra themselves? Nice to see your argument losing its legs already.

You are right on one thing though, Dromund Kaas was far more active and thus more potent in effect than it was after millennia of inferior presences.

Darth Nyriss on a dark side nexus that has drastic effects, does indeed have the advantage over Meetra who didn't have her full powers available.

Dromund Kaas has:
-Made Revan incapable of sensing the future.
-Made Meetra incapable of achieving inner tranquility and enlightenment, which boosts her augmentative and defensive ability.
-Corrupted Kyle Katarn and drove him half mad.
-Rendered Ben Skywalker incapable of feeling the Force.
-Drastically slowed down FOTJ Luke and Jaina's reflexes.
-Rendered Mara Jade's powers inert.

It's almost as if Dromund Kaas has the same effect throughout The Old Republic, Jedi Knight and Fate of the Jedi.

What does Scourge have to do with this thread? Meetra, "held her ground," but that doesn't stop the facts that she was clearly overmatched, brought to her knees, and put out of commission by a single bolt of lightning. And again, I find it interesting that Meetra thought it a better option to use a force barrier than a lightsaber defense.

When did I ever say Dromund Kaas wasn't a nexus with debilitating effects under Drew's writing, (again, I don't really care about what happened in FOTJ. Why? Because authorial intent. The Dark Temple did jack to the HoT and the empire protags. Unless you think the Hero has a stronger connection to the light side, or the empire classes/HoT have more mental fortitude than Luke and co, it's pretty obvious that different authors display varying levels of power to fit for the story)? It simply doesn't take away from the fact that Nyriss leapt in the middle of Scourge and Meetra and both were still put on the defensive by her skill and speed, and after Scourge was put out of commission, Meetra followed suit. A single bolt of Nyriss's lightning subdued Meetra, why on earth should anyone think that, even off nexus, Nyriss is inferior to Meetra? There's no way Meetra would ever be able to handle Nyriss best efforts with force lightning.

While I agree with your point, I'm pretty sure the intention is that the Empire protags and the HoT are just that beastly to be able to fight in the Dark Temple. TOR goes to great lengths to stress the incredible influence the temple has on those who enter or get near it. It obviously wouldn't do jack shit to them, they simply overcame it.

That said, Nyriss jumping in between them and still stomping them shows that she's vastly superior to them, as is her ability to one-shot both of them with TK and lightning.

Talk about negating context.

Meetra on a planet that rendered her incapable of fully augmenting her physical abilities and defensive applications of the Force, was inferior to Nyriss. This meant that the Force meditation that had been sustaining her for the last four days, which was a mere two days after her near discorporation on Nathema, was incapable of sustaining her further and yet she takes no breaks for rest or sustenance until after battling Darth Nyriss.

Meetra Surik would obviously be capable of throwing around greater weight in a neutral environment, with full rest and physical capability than she would otherwise. No I am not suggesting Meetra Surik would improve so much as to defeat Darth Nyriss, but instead give her a far tougher fight. In a battle, the small differences can have great effects.

I am still yet to see any argument depicting that Tano is taking an engagement against Meetra Surik however. Meetra is more powerful, physically better, mentally better, more masterful a duelist and has precognitive abilities.

Lies, Meetra has plenty of time after arriving on Dromund Kaas to rest. She spends two days before making contact with the person who further puts her into contact with Scourge.

She goes from the spaceport to the market and trades for information brokers. Eventually she contacts Sechel to find Scourge who was in T3's hologram, she goes to a cave she uses as a hideout and tries to meditate, she fails to do so and awaits Lord Scourge. She demolishes Murtog and his mercenaries before conversing with Scourge, she waits expecting an ambush from him until he returns and finally they go to Nyriss' compound.

She didn't sleep, meditate or eat in that time. It is after they break Revan out that they get some hours to rest and decide to sit watching Bastila and his son.

Originally posted by Nephthys
While I agree with your point, I'm pretty sure the intention is that the Empire protags and the HoT are just that beastly to be able to fight in the Dark Temple. TOR goes to great lengths to stress the incredible influence the temple has on those who enter or get near it. It obviously wouldn't do jack shit to them, they simply overcame it.

That said, Nyriss jumping in between them and still stomping them shows that she's vastly superior to them, as is her ability to one-shot both of them with TK and lightning.

Well yeah, I recognize that the protags are beastly, but just that TOR doesn't display Kaas as powerful as Post-ROTJ content does, wherein Katarn is being driven mad and Luke is having legit trouble.

Katarn doesn't go to Dromund Kaas in Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse, he goes in Jedi Knight: Mysteries of the Sith, the original depiction of Dromund Kaas.

Editeeeeeeed

Originally posted by AncientPower
She goes from the spaceport to the market and trades for information brokers. Eventually she contacts Sechel to find Scourge who was in T3's hologram, she goes to a cave she uses as a hideout and tries to meditate, she fails to do so and awaits Lord Scourge. She demolishes Murtog and his mercenaries before conversing with Scourge, she waits expecting an ambush from him until he returns and finally they go to Nyriss' compound.

She didn't sleep, meditate or eat in that time. It is after they break Revan out that they get some hours to rest and decide to sit watching Bastila and his son.

She also had the hyperspace trip there and we aren't told that she lands on Dromund Kaas immediately upon arriving. She could have rested at those times. And you're obviously glossing over her search for Sechel. "Eventually" meaning she had 2 days of free reign to rest. An appointment is booked for Meetra to meet with Sechel in 2 days by Larvit, after which she has no reason not to replenish herself. She isn't searching at that point, she has literally nothing else to do. After meeting Sechel, she has time to rest before he sets up the meeting with Scourge. Afterwards Scourge leaves her for a day, during which she attempts to meditate, true, but there's no indication that's what she did the entire time. She could have easily rested and then tried to meditate.

You cannot possibly say that she didn't sleep, meditate or eat because there are numerous long stretches of unaccounted for time during which she could easily do those things. Like I said, you're 100% lying and warping the facts about this. Anyone who takes to time to look at the book can see this. I've let you get away with these claims because I couldn't be bothered to actually read what happened but now that I have it's inarguable that Meetra had many opportunities to eat and sleep and not a shred of evidence that she was weakened at all.

If Meetra really did do all of this and knowingly went into combat without eating or resting for 7 days despite all of those opportunities to do so and this actually harmed her performance, then she is literally the stupidest being in the galaxy. She deserved to be stabbed in the back because she is just that ****ing retarded. Ahsoka could say someones behind her and she'd fall for it.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
The inquisitors are honestly more impressive than those council members tbf. https://media.giphy.com/media/aPxImPoozq3gQ/giphy.gif

Christ seems folks need to be again reminded what the KOTOR Jedi Council are capable of.

Kavar stuns Vaklu's troops without so much as a gesture:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8lebLFZqsI&t=8m24s

Stuns the Exile with a Force push and generates a Force wave that incapacitates almost half a dozen soldiers:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/4434750-7198444186-44347.gif

Zez-Kai Ell was able to blow Hanharr away with enough Force to render him unconscious:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/4959886-vz7jh.gif

Kavar was able to place the Exile in stasis against her will:

http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/5261282-15p838.gif

And was able to strike the Exile and her companion with enough telekinetic Force to incapacitate them both:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/4434739-5230964731-KRJaD.gif

And through presumably their combined power the Council were capable of severing the Exile from the Force:

And also seemingly quickly rebuilt what remained of the Jedi Enclave with TK. Finally with all members of the Jedi Council they were able to erase and reprogram Revan's mind:Which is legit more than Vitiate ever managed lmao.

Inferior to the Inquisitors my ass, they'd ragdoll.

Yeah, messing with the guy with brain damage's head. Way better than Vitiate.

Neph.

You aren't even remotely familiar with Kotor 2 are you? Meetra takes meditation sessions, like the very first night on Citadel Station she meditates and the same is true every other time the Exile takes a rest with any companions. Ever heard of Mical? Well on Dromund Kaas she can't do that.

Meetra researches Dromund Kaas and the Empire whilst there, or did you suddenly forget that in your obviously in-depth studies? She does have time between meetings, but did you think she found out all she did about the modern day Empire by sitting on her ass the entire time?

Continue spewing accusations at me if you want but it's not going to provide any argument against the fact that Meetra, just like every other noted Jedi who ever went to Dromund Kaas, was negatively effected to a point that her most valuable stated asset isn't available to her.

Stop getting so defensive over this apparent personal offense to your HoT wank.

Vrook placed the Exile in Stasis, not Kavar. But yeah, those three >> the Inquisitors.

It was the three of them together that actually freezes the Exile, who is evidently not actually fighting back.

They can stun you even if tell them to go **** themselves.

You can tell them to stop what they're doing and the animation depicts that the Exile is backing away and wasn't expecting their sudden judgement to cut her off from the Force.

In the canon version Meetra accepts their judgements, in the dark side version Meetra kills all of them.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah, messing with the guy with brain damage's head. Way better than Vitiate. I said more than he ever managed dear, extenuating circumstances aside that is true. Originally posted by SunRazer
Vrook placed the Exile in Stasis, not Kavar. But yeah, those three >> the Inquisitors. Oops, got the names mixed up.Originally posted by AncientPower
It was the three of them together that actually freezes the Exile, who is evidently not actually fighting back. Yet as far as I remember, only Vrook makes a gesture, any proof of this?

Well first there is what they actually say, which you referenced, that it was within their power, as in together. Moreover we have three animations hit the Exile in succession, the third one actually freezes her. More importantly she was pretty clearly not expecting it.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Neph.

You aren't even remotely familiar with Kotor 2 are you? Meetra takes meditation sessions, like the very first night on Citadel Station she meditates and the same is true every other time the Exile takes a rest with any companions. Ever heard of Mical? Well on Dromund Kaas she can't do that.

Meetra researches Dromund Kaas and the Empire whilst there, or did you suddenly forget that in your obviously in-depth studies? She does have time between meetings, but did you think she found out all she did about the modern day Empire by sitting on her ass the entire time?

Continue spewing accusations at me if you want but it's not going to provide any argument against the fact that Meetra, just like every other noted Jedi who ever went to Dromund Kaas, was negatively effected to a point that her most valuable stated asset isn't available to her.

Stop getting so defensive over this apparent personal offense to your HoT wank.

It was more difficult on Dromund Kaas, but hardly a significant issue at all. If it was important Meetra would have stopped T3 from distracting her regardless of how nervous he was.

No, I didn't forget the thing I was actively looking at while writing. That she researched the empire in that time doesn't preclude her from eating and sleeping. Duh.

The Jedi you're talking about visited thousands of years in the future. There's no indication that the effects would be the same. And that's irrelevant. My point was about your claims that Meetra was starved and exhausted. As you've basically conceded at this point, my work here is done.

Hardly a significant issue? Not being capable of finding enlightenment which allows her to achieve a mindset where she can harness the light side to her full potential isn't significant? You're doing it again, Neph.

Are you even understanding what I'm saying? She uses meditation to sustain herself, but can't on Dromund Kaas. The dark side is too strong.

Thousands of years later, where the dark side isn't going to be as potent. I assume I needn't remind you of how Korriban's power atrophied over time.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Well first there is what they actually say, which you referenced, that it was within their power, as in together. Moreover we have three animations hit the Exile in succession, the third one actually freezes her. More importantly she was pretty clearly not expecting it. Erm, to sever her from the Force. Not stun her so she could be severed. And I don't see what you mean, all I see is Vrook reach out and stun the Exile.

Yeah, it's just Vrook that Stuns her, not the whole Council. The whole Council is needed to Sever her.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
https://media.giphy.com/media/aPxImPoozq3gQ/giphy.gif

Christ seems folks need to be again reminded what the KOTOR Jedi Council are capable of.

Kavar stuns Vaklu's troops without so much as a gesture:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8lebLFZqsI&t=8m24s

Stuns the Exile with a Force push and generates a Force wave that incapacitates almost half a dozen soldiers:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/4434750-7198444186-44347.gif

Zez-Kai Ell was able to blow Hanharr away with enough Force to render him unconscious:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/4959886-vz7jh.gif

Kavar was able to place the Exile in stasis against her will:

http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/5261282-15p838.gif

And was able to strike the Exile and her companion with enough telekinetic Force to incapacitate them both:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/4434739-5230964731-KRJaD.gif

And through presumably their combined power the Council were capable of severing the Exile from the Force:

And also seemingly quickly rebuilt what remained of the Jedi Enclave with TK. Finally with all members of the Jedi Council they were able to erase and reprogram Revan's mind:Which is legit more than Vitiate ever managed lmao.

Inferior to the Inquisitors my ass, they'd ragdoll.

Well that is a simple and effective way to shut someone down

Hanharr wasn't just rendered unconscious either. Kreia later finds him mortally wounded (ie. the same way she finds him in the LS version when Mira leaves him for dead). Hanharr gets Pushed an enormous distance if you've played the game, and right before Zez does that, he opens a door which is sealed even to Hanharr (who boasts extremely superhuman strength) without even gesturing.

The Inquisitors really aren't in the same league as the Jedi Masters when it comes to power.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Hardly a significant issue? Not being capable of finding enlightenment which allows her to achieve a mindset where she can harness the light side to her full potential isn't significant? You're doing it again, Neph.

Are you even understanding what I'm saying? She uses meditation to sustain herself, but can't on Dromund Kaas. The dark side is too strong.

Thousands of years later, where the dark side isn't going to be as potent. I assume I needn't remind you of how Korriban's power atrophied over time.

It isn't treated as significant, and the fact is that Meetra's best feats took place on a vastly greater nexus that would limit her much more.

She doesn't need to sustain herself, she can just eat and sleep. Also just because she can't achieve enlightenment doesn't mean she can't sustain her body.

Why don't know the circumstances of that. Dromund Kaas could have gotten massive stronger after the events of Revan and TOR in any number of ways.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Well that is a simple and effective way to shut someone down

Heh he, also all that stuff is from Nova's respect thread:

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/shootingnova/blog/vrook-kavar-and-zez-kai-ell-respect-thread/97853/

I recommend some people here favourite it for future reference.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Hanharr wasn't just rendered unconscious either. Kreia later finds him mortally wounded (ie. the same way she finds him in the LS version when Mira leaves him for dead). Hanharr gets Pushed an enormous distance if you've played the game, and right before Zez does that, he opens a door which is sealed even to Hanharr (who boasts extremely superhuman strength) without even gesturing.

The Inquisitors really aren't in the same league as the Jedi Masters when it comes to power. Ah good points, though looking at the dialogue its indicated that Kreia dragged him there.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Heh he, also all that stuff is from Nova's respect thread:

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/shootingnova/blog/vrook-kavar-and-zez-kai-ell-respect-thread/97853/

I recommend some people here favourite it for future reference.

Yeah i especially like that thread because Vrook is my fav.

Maybe by reading it I'll put Kavar above Bane, eh Nova?

It's actually Kavar = Bane. Vrook > Bane.

Some very disgusting opinions going on in this thread...

Originally posted by SunRazer
It's actually Kavar = Bane. Vrook > Bane.

LMFAO.

that aside, just went through the RT, i concede that i thought the Council Members were mooks, but you've done a nice job certainly better than i had originally thought

Who the **** likes Vrook, hes the most assholish Jedi ever.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Who the **** likes Vrook, hes the most assholish Jedi ever.

He is played by the same guy that played the old man from UP.

Plus he is just a grandpa with temperament.

Wow didn't notice that, pretty cool.

I realised it watching Up again a few weeks ago, started fangirling wildly tbfh.

What exactly are we arguing here? None of these Jedi Masters is exactly comparable to the Exile, so what's the point in wanking them to put them above the Inquisitors?

Originally posted by Selenial
I realised it watching Up again a few weeks ago, started fangirling wildly tbfh.

Sameeeee

Lol i could go on about the voice actors of SW games. Some may surprise ya

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Sameeeee

Lol i could go on about the voice actors of SW games. Some may surprise ya

I've spotted so many of the KOTOR actors in Hawaii-Five-O it's ridiculous.

And no I don't like that show, before anyone asks.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
https://media.giphy.com/media/aPxImPoozq3gQ/giphy.gif

Christ seems folks need to be again reminded what the KOTOR Jedi Council are capable of.

Kavar stuns Vaklu's troops without so much as a gesture:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8lebLFZqsI&t=8m24s

Stuns the Exile with a Force push and generates a Force wave that incapacitates almost half a dozen soldiers:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/4434750-7198444186-44347.gif

Zez-Kai Ell was able to blow Hanharr away with enough Force to render him unconscious:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/4959886-vz7jh.gif

Kavar was able to place the Exile in stasis against her will:

http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/5261282-15p838.gif

And was able to strike the Exile and her companion with enough telekinetic Force to incapacitate them both:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/4434739-5230964731-KRJaD.gif

And through presumably their combined power the Council were capable of severing the Exile from the Force:

And also seemingly quickly rebuilt what remained of the Jedi Enclave with TK. Finally with all members of the Jedi Council they were able to erase and reprogram Revan's mind:Which is legit more than Vitiate ever managed lmao.

Inferior to the Inquisitors my ass, they'd ragdoll.

I was not aware of most of that, but before I concede anything, I have two questions about this post.

What has the Exile done with the Force at the point where she got telekinetically incapacitated?

And is any of that cut content? because I will not again be tricked into thinking cut content was actually in the game.

DMB casually making me wonder why I ever engaged him in a debate to begin with, tbfh. mmm

I didn't know the feats of the council masters that well, so I'm asking for clarification so I don't make the same mistake again.

It seems pretty straightforward, your low key insulting aside.

You're somebody I respect and someone id like to continue to respect, but when you get condescending like that it tests my respect for you.

I mean shit Sel, you bother to debate people who have even less respect for Meetra than I do LOL

Originally posted by Selenial
DMB casually making me wonder why I ever engaged him in a debate to begin with, tbfh. mmm

Don't be an insufferable ****ing ***** **** ******, milady.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
I didn't know the feats of the council masters that well, so I'm asking for clarification so I don't make the same mistake again.

It seems pretty straightforward, your low key insulting aside.

You're somebody I respect and someone id like to continue to respect, but when you get condescending like that it tests my respect for you.

I mean shit Sel, you bother to debate people who have even less respect for Meetra than I do LOL

That was low key?

Well, I had an extremely brief look through your post history, and in the last week you've commented on the combat ability of KotOR II characters four seperate times (not including multiple posts in one thread). I'm not sure why I'm supposed to continue respecting someone who shows a blatant disregard for, and incredible lack of understanding on, the characters he so readily asserts the prowess of.

I don't care where you rank a character, merely why. Your comments on the council members shows you're commenting on a source material of which you only know the most basic details (IE them being dominated by Traya) because every scene the Council Members are in shows them as being solid combatants up until their demise.

You're also against Cut Content being used for canon, despite the fact other canon works referenced events that only happened in cut content, as does the PRIMA guide numerous times. The Cut Content also appears in the game script that anyone with a copy of the game can access. It is the equivalent of the uncut TCW episodes, which everyone seems to take as canon. Seems like outrageous double standards to not apply the same logic to KotOR II.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
I was not aware of most of that, but before I concede anything, I have two questions about this post.

What has the Exile done with the Force at the point where she got telekinetically incapacitated?

And is any of that cut content? because I will not again be tricked into thinking cut content was actually in the game. What has she done? Well she took an army of royalists on Onderon single-handedly, with their forces regarding her as some kind of monster.

She's also beaten Visas Marr unarmed (cut-content) who as Nihilus Shadow Hand is likely stronger than most Sith in the Order bar Sion.

And no none of what I raised was cut-content.

@DMB: no, The Exile has done nothing special telekinetically prior to getting an stasis'd by Vrook. Though the Exile was certainly powerful in her own right regardless.

And in all of those four threads this is the first time someone actually bothered to spam all of that shit. And now that I've seen that shit I'm reassessing my opinion.

How is this any different from you debating me on Kas'im vs Shaak for several pages despite your own admittance that you barely remember the source material?

And those episodes were released as part of the Clone Wars legacy project iirc, whereas I don't take the cut content of released TCW episodes (such as Maul throwing Sheev against the wall) seriously.

And I fail to see how a person's knowledge of one era completely invalidates them as a debater.

In regards to cut content, I think its important to distinguish between what was intended to make the final cut but simply did not, and what was simply cut and therefore not intended.

For example the cut content featuring Traya arriving on Malachor and choking out Sion was very likely intended, as it doesn't contradict but rather supports in-game events.

On the other hand I still have my doubts on Traya telekinetically dominating the Council, its not as if that event was cut from the game, it's there, it just happens in different and frankly far smoother manner.

I also struggle to believe that Traya could dominate all three JC members at once, and yet be unable to overpower Meetra on a nexus. Despite two out of three of those JC members being capable of stunning and incapacitating the Exile themselves.

Which leads me to believe it was not intended.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
And in all of those four threads this is the first time someone actually bothered to spam all of that shit. And now that I've seen that shit I'm reassessing my opinion.

How is this any different from you debating me on Kas'im vs Shaak for several pages despite your own admittance that you barely remember the source material?
Because I've read the trilogy before, re-read everything on Kas'im and looked into him in-depth before bothering to reply on something I knew absolutely nothing about

The fact is you obviously lack an understanding on the era since you forgot every major scene with the council in them, yet continue to make assertions on characters from the game. I don't really care whether you change your mind, because as I said I personally don't care where you rate any of the characters. The fact however that you're willing to spew arguments about things you know next to nothing on, speaks volumes about you.



Exactly, those episodes were released in that form because the Clone Wars was cancelled, much like the scenes were missing from KotOR II because the game was released against time schedules, and the script wasn't fully translated.

There's a difference between things being taken out because they're shoddy and things being left because of a lack of time.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
In regards to cut content, I think its important to distinguish between what was intended to make the final cut but simply did not, and what was simply cut and therefore not intended.

For example the cut content featuring Traya arriving on Malachor and choking out Sion was very likely intended, as it doesn't contradict but rather supports in-game events.

On the other hand I still have my doubts on Traya telekinetically dominating the Council, its not as if that event was cut from the game, it's there, it just happens in different and frankly far smoother manner.

I also struggle to believe that Traya could dominate all three JC members at once, and yet be unable to overpower Meetra on a nexus. Despite two out of three of those JC members being capable of stunning and incapacitating the Exile themselves.

Which leads me to believe it was not intended.

Semi-agreed, I don't like the council analogy because she ragdolls them in the original game anyway....

Not in my copy.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Not in my copy.

Oh, just to clarify I'm referring to her force wave, and the way she treats Vrook.

Ah I see, though that's much more stayed and sense making.

Ahsoka still wins tbh tho. Vader >> Nyriss, and Ahsoka did better against the former than Meetra against the ladder.

Fantastic, I realized I made a major error when Beni posted, and I intend to familiarize myself with KOTOR II content when I get home from vacation. I made a major oversight and intend to learn from my mistakes.

I do not for a second however believe that singular mistake invalidates everything I have done or everything I am as a debater, and if you think that mistake makes me a shit debater, then you're making a judgement off of little information, which is the type of mistake that started this convo to begin with.

I'll concede that I ****ed up, but you suggesting this makes me a dumbass, a shit debater, or not worth debating is a serious overreaction and quite frankly contradicted by the fact that I've at least held my own against you in our debate and actually managed to impress you.

You're not wrong, anyways. KOTOR 2 characters sans Nihilus are still shit in terms of power and skill, relative to the likes of Ahsoka.

50% cancur 50% love, what do I do.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Fantastic, I realized I made a major error when Beni posted, and I intend to familiarize myself with KOTOR II content when I get home from vacation. I made a major oversight and intend to learn from my mistakes.

I do not for a second however believe that singular mistake invalidates everything I have done or everything I am as a debater, and if you think that mistake makes me a shit debater, then you're making a judgement off of little information, which is the type of mistake that started this convo to begin with.

I'll concede that I ****ed up, but you suggesting this makes me a dumbass, a shit debater, or not worth debating is a serious overreaction and quite frankly contradicted by the fact that I've at least held my own against you in our debate and actually managed to impress you.

Calm down. Selenial's a douche sometimes. Nothing new here.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
50% cancur 50% love, what do I do.

Oh c'mon. You think Meetra could hold her own against the mighty Vader like Ahsoka did? She barely held her ground against Nyriss.

Tbfh if we take that to be prime Meetra and assess all parties by their feats then Nyriss > Vader.

Or we can accept that Avellone puts Vader above Nihilus, and scale everyone off of that. The Novel scales Meetra accurately, tbfh.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Oh c'mon. You think Meetra could hold her own against the mighty Vader like Ahsoka did? She barely held her ground against Nyriss.

Someone who beat Traya in the heart of Malachor after fighting legions of Sith and killing Sion 4 times in a row on a gravity well should be able to stand up to Vader, yes.

Sel stuck a nerve. SW debating is serious business.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Fantastic, I realized I made a major error when Beni posted, and I intend to familiarize myself with KOTOR II content when I get home from vacation. I made a major oversight and intend to learn from my mistakes.

I do not for a second however believe that singular mistake invalidates everything I have done or everything I am as a debater, and if you think that mistake makes me a shit debater, then you're making a judgement off of little information, which is the type of mistake that started this convo to begin with.

I'll concede that I ****ed up, but you suggesting this makes me a dumbass, a shit debater, or not worth debating is a serious overreaction and quite frankly contradicted by the fact that I've at least held my own against you in our debate and actually managed to impress you.

First:

Originally posted by Nephthys
Calm down.

Second, I never said anything about it invalidating anything you've done as a debater, nor that your'e now shit tier. I merely acknowledged that someone who is willing to continuously talk about things they know nothing about is not someone I want to debate.

I appreciate you admitting it was a "major oversight" and a "**** up", but the fact is it wasn't your singular statement that was the problem. It's the fact you feel confident ridiculing arguments made by AP or other supporters of KotOR II Era characters when you know next to nothing of the source material.

Nihilus, Vader's inferior, would oneshot the Trayus Academy.

But honestly, video game feats are kind of retarded in general. Ranging from Kyle Katarn beating VOTJ Jerec and an amped Desann, (who at least did okay unamped against Luke,) Jaden Korr slaughtering through armies of Reborn at age 13, Revan's SF Massacre, and the litany of SWTOR feats, (like Revan Kek-shotting Marr and co, and I know you rate Marr/Satele/Lana higher than most do). If anything, Drew's portrayal of Meetra's power falls in line with Avellone's reasoning that Vader > Nihilus. Kyle Katarn received a similar, "nerfing," in the various novels he's portrayed in. Jaden did too, AFAIK.

Oh, and you can't forget the HoU.

Source on Vader > Nihilus?

Anyway taking Meetra at face value in Drew's novel essentially makes KOTOR the weakest, shittiest era ever. Which is jokes.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Nihilus, Vader's inferior, would oneshot the Trayus Academy.

Because of abilities Vader lacks. Vader himself would find it difficult to replicate the Exiles feat. And he certainly isn't in Nihilus' league, let alone above it.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
But honestly, video game feats are kind of retarded in general. Ranging from Kyle Katarn beating VOTJ Jerec and an amped Desann, (who at least did okay unamped against Luke,) Jaden Korr slaughtering through armies of Reborn at age 13, Revan's SF Massacre, and the litany of SWTOR feats, (like Revan Kek-shotting Marr and co, and I know you rate Marr/Satele/Lana higher than most do). If anything, Drew's portrayal of Meetra's power falls in line with Avellone's reasoning that Vader > Nihilus. Kyle Katarn received a similar, "nerfing," in the various novels he's portrayed in. Jaden did too, AFAIK.

None of this disputes what the Exile did on Malachor being incredibly impressive.

Pretty sure Jaden was very powerful in his book actually.


Originally posted by Beniboybling
Anyway taking Meetra at face value in Drew's novel essentially makes KOTOR the weakest, shittiest era ever. Which is jokes.

The alternative is that Nyriss is just that good and Revan is Yoda-tier.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Anyway taking Meetra at face value in Drew's novel essentially makes KOTOR the weakest, shittiest era ever. Which is jokes.

Kek. The whole point was that KOTOR = shit compared to the, "gnu Sith Empire."

Yet still failed to win the war. Originally posted by Nephthys
The alternative is that Nyriss is just that good and Revan is Yoda-tier. Basically, I'm sure you'd love that.

Tbh Beni, Nyriss's charged lightning was fugging insane tier powerful, and Revan bent it back casually.

Only able to incinerate herself though. But yeah, as I said Nyriss > Vader.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The alternative is that Nyriss is just that good and Revan is Yoda-tier.

Or, you know, that she lost her wound which was the source of most of her power mmm

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Only able to incinerate herself though. But yeah, as I said Nyriss > Vader.

It's fine if you believe that, and would give a more logical indicator of Vitiate's power level.

Nah, my belief is that Drew is cancer.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Only able to incinerate herself though. But yeah, as I said Nyriss > Vader.