Maul Brothers vs. Dooku

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The Ellimist
1. Force
2. Sabers
3. All-out

carthage
Dooku joins Bane in the grave

The Ellimist
Dooku was able to ragdoll and dispose of Obi Wan while kicking away Anakin at the same time.

Kurk
If Savage can't block lightning, Dooku might have a chance. Otherwise, with both in their prime, Dooku gets rekt.

Deronn_solo
Maul solos.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Dooku was able to ragdoll and dispose of Obi Wan while kicking away Anakin at the same time.
Savage was able to do the same thing to Dooku. erm

relentless1
Dooku stomps, he was very good at fighting outnumbered...see vs anakin and obi wan, anakin, obi wan and the pike, ventress and nightsisers, opress and ventress

Deronn_solo
^^
Pure cancer.
Mixed with HIV, and a sprinkle of Ebola for good measure.

The Ellimist
So Maul and Savage > restrained RotS Anakin and Obi Wan?

chingchangwalla
I don't think Savage would be able to repeat his force choke against Dooku unless he gets super frickin angry but if Maul gets mad he could probably take Dooku on his own. The Count beat Savage before all his experience on the battlefield so he'd most likely be stronger and smarter in this duel, adding Maul would make things super tough. If they both get mad: Team takes 8/10
If they stay calm-ish: Even Split

MythLord
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Maul solos.
For 3/10 smile

On topic: Maul bros, every time. Still, Dooku should be able to hold his own given him performing well against a superior duo.

SunRazer
Tyranus beats Maul, but there's absolutely no way he can defeat Maul when Savage joins the fray.

The Ellimist
Originally posted by The Ellimist
So Maul and Savage > restrained RotS Anakin and Obi Wan?

SunRazer
You mean the ones using their secondary forms and no Force attacks? Yeah, they're not better than Maul/Savage.

The Ellimist
I was pretty sure they'd taken the gloves off by the time Dooku felt the need to go on the offensive.

SunRazer
When they took their gloves off, Dooku was losing pretty damn solidly. He recovered decently well by taking out Obi-Wan, but he would've been solo'd by Anakin even if the latter didn't become enraged.

The Ellimist
Yeah, but here if he could replicate the same choke + ragdoll on Savage, he would not lose solo to Maul.

SunRazer
Do you think he could Choke/ragdoll Savage?

Beniboybling
Yeah I somehow doubt that. erm

MythLord
I question if Savage is legitimately more powerful than Kenobi, or at least not by any substantial margin to cancel out being thrown by Dooku who needed a "negligent flick of a wrist" to dispatch Kenobi.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by MythLord
I question if Savage is legitimately more powerful than Kenobi, or at least not by any substantial margin to cancel out being thrown by Dooku who needed a "negligent flick of a wrist" to dispatch Kenobi. He clearly is based of his showings, many of which rival Dooku's own. Multiple sources also make out Savage as a serious threat to Dooku, and indeed in a moment of rage Savage was able to choke out Dooku and Ventress simultaneously, a state in which it took "all the power" of Dooku and Ventress to defend against.

Yah, Dooku isn't dismissing him in a neutral setting, not remotely.

Emperordmb
Damn it Wollf! Not this whipcrack of power shit again sad

MythLord
Originally posted by Beniboybling
He clearly is based of his showings, many of which rival Dooku's own. Multiple sources also make out Savage as a serious threat to Dooku, and indeed in a moment of rage Savage was able to choke out Dooku and Ventress simultaneously, a state in which it took "all the power" of Dooku and Ventress to defend against.

Yah, Dooku isn't dismissing him in a neutral setting.

Savage's showings aren't better than Kenobi's, not by any substantial margin, if any at all. Savage was a legitimate threat with the aid of Asajj or if he was enraged and Dooku was distracted, yes. Prior to that, StarWars.com confirms Dooku's far more powerful than Opress:


Source:http://www.starwars.com/video/dooku-vs-his-apprentices

So yeah, I don't see why Dooku couldn't dispatch Savage via his superior command of the Force.

SunRazer
Dooku's "negligent flick of the wrist" ragdoll against Obi-Wan was accomplished after "drawing in the power of the universe".

Likewise, his quote about being far more powerful than Savage happened before the latter grew in power under Maul's tutelage. Would Dooku still be able to ragdoll him? I doubt it, really.

MythLord
Originally posted by SunRazer
Dooku's "negligent flick of the wrist" ragdoll against Obi-Wan was accomplished after "drawing in the power of the universe".

So he drew in the power of the universe, then used a negligable portion of that power to dispatch Kenobi? How does that change anything?

Originally posted by SunRazer
Likewise, his quote about being far more powerful than Savage happened before the latter grew in power under Maul's tutelage. Would Dooku still be able to ragdoll him? I doubt it, really.

Unless Savage is the new Chosen One, his potential shouldn't be so high that after a year he would go from being far inferior to being comparable. Especially not when Dooku's own potential in the Force was an enigma to even Yoda, hence the Count would've likely improved as well.

SunRazer
Well, being generous, the two cancel out. Ergo, Dooku does need to put in effort on a general basis to overwhelm Obi-Wan. Also, I believe that was a Force Push, not an outright ragdoll as he would later do.

The Count would've improved, but Savage moreso - given that Savage is a sibling of Maul, whose potential in the Force is drastically greater than the Count's, chances are that Savage grows at a much greater rate than Dooku does.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by MythLord
Savage's showings aren't better than Kenobi's, not by any substantial margin, if any at all.Can you substantiate that claim with something? Because I'm not seeing any evidence that Kenobi can manipulate large shuttles with ease, blow apart a cell reinforced with Mandalorian iron, or generate Force repulses that have blown away the likes of Maul, Anakin and indeed Kenobi himself.

Nor am I particularly impressed by Kenobi's ability to floor several dozen Pykes with the aid of Anakin, when with the aid of his brother Savage was able to blow away (lethally I might add) nigh a hundred soldiers...That doesn't prove Dooku is far more powerful than Savage in general. Ventress? Certainly. Against Savage he only had his Force lightning, which indeed is an ability that far surpasses anything Opress had mastered, and which he had no defense against.

On the other hand, the fact that all it took was a rage amp for Savage to dominate Dooku and Ventress simultaneously, pushing the Count to his limits, proves in overall power Savage wasn't that away from him at all.

This of course, as Razer points out, being before he experienced a significant growth in power. thumb upOriginally posted by SunRazer
The Count would've improved, but Savage moreso - given that Savage is a sibling of Maul, whose potential in the Force is drastically greater than the Count's, chances are that Savage grows at a much greater rate than Dooku does. Also Savage is just beginning his training, whereas Dooku is more or less plateauing. Growth in the Force tends to be far more rapid at the early stages before leveling out.

MythLord
Originally posted by SunRazer
Well, being generous, the two cancel out. Ergo, Dooku does need to put in effort on a general basis to overwhelm Obi-Wan. Also, I believe that was a Force Push, not an outright ragdoll as he would later do.

They don't cancel each other out. The full quote says:

Taken from the Revenge of the Sith novelisation
He gathered the Force once more in a single indrawn breath that summoned power from throughout the universe; the slightest whipcrack of that power, negligent as a flick of his wrist, sent Kenobi flying backward to crash hard against the wall, but Dooku didn't have time to enjoy it.

So Dooku draws in power "throughout the universe" which is Stover's hyperbolic way of saying he drew on the Force, and then uses "the slighest, negligable whipcrack of that power" to dispatch Kenobi. Again, doesn't really mean he needs some effort to get rid of Obi-Wan. And the fact that it's something as measily as a Force Push from Dooku that incapacitates Obi only helps Dooku's case.

Originally posted by SunRazer
The Count would've improved, but Savage moreso - given that Savage is a sibling of Maul, whose potential in the Force is drastically greater than the Count's, chances are that Savage grows at a much greater rate than Dooku does.

Based on what is Maul's potential "drastically greater" than Dooku's? And I'm not sure just how comparable Savage would be to Maul given he needed Nightsister Magicks to actually even become Force sensitive and even twins don't always have the exact amount of potential(Leia and Luke being the best example). Savage might've grown more than Dooku, but himself has grown and has dispatched someone who's power rivals Opress'.

SunRazer
That Dooku had to actually gather power (ie. indrawn breath)

Maul's potential is obviously drastically greater than Dooku's because he's around the same level despite being well over fifty years younger than the Count. Not to mention implications that his potential supersedes Talzin's, who is leagues above Tyranus in the Force. Also, if we're talking about raw potential, Leia's right up there with Luke, and Sidious even claimed that Leia could be more powerful (his sincerity can be called into question, though).

MythLord
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Can you substantiate that claim with something? Because I'm not seeing any evidence that Kenobi can manipulate large shuttles with ease, blow apart a cell reinforced with Mandalorian iron, or generate Force repulses that blow away the likes of Maul, Anakin and indeed Kenobi himself.

Um, Kenobi has collapsed four trees larger than a massive shuttle, blew apart Durge(who's unharmed by dozens of blaster bolts or explosions that damage Anakin), and has deflected blows from Mustafar Vader, traded telekinetic blows with Vader, and somehow that doesn't matter because he was floored by one of an enraged Savage's waves with his back turned?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Nor am I particularly impressed by Kenobi's ability to floor several dozen Pykes with the aid of Anakin, when with the aid of his brother Savage was able to blow away (lethally I might add) nigh a hundred soldiers...

Prior to them growing in power(Anakin in particular grew "vastly"wink and in a medium which lowballs Force sensitives where not even Dooku could do anything but floor a doezn Pykes for a few seconds.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
That doesn't prove Dooku is far more powerful than Savage in general. Ventress? Certainly. But the only advantage he had against Savage was his Force lightning, which indeed is an ability that far surpasses anything Opress had mastered, and which he had no defense against.

On the other hand, the fact that all it took was a rage amp for Savage to dominate Dooku and Ventress simultaneously, pushing the Count to his limits, proves in overall power Savage wasn't that away from him at all.

This of course, as Razer points out, being before he experienced a significant growth in power. thumb up

It kinda does, given that the lightning Dooku threw at Savage did nothing but slow him down and it says "abilities", which means it's more than just the singular ability of lightning.

All it took was for Dooku to not even face Savage and Opress to get a rage amp for him to choke and throw Dooku, yes. Somehow that means he isn't going to be hurled back by Dooku's own TK?

And I'm well aware of his growth in the Force, but Dooku would've likely had a growth as well given his own substantial potential in the Force, albeit it not as noticeably as Opress.

MythLord
Originally posted by SunRazer
That Dooku had to actually gather power (ie. indrawn breath)

And then uses an incredibly negligable and small portion of said power and still ends up incapacitating Kenobi with a measily Force Push.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Maul's potential is obviously drastically greater than Dooku's because he's around the same level despite being well over fifty years younger than the Count. Not to mention implications that his potential supersedes Talzin's, who is leagues above Tyranus in the Force. Also, if we're talking about raw potential, Leia's right up there with Luke, and Sidious even claimed that Leia could be more powerful (his sincerity can be called into question, though).

Meh, fair enough. Although Maul did have much more intensive training than Dooku, which would've helped his skill and power grow at a much faster rate.
Although, I'd still say that, while Dooku and Maul are around the same level, Dooku's noticeably superior(at least in power).

SunRazer
1. "Incapacitate" sounds like a rather generous term. He just floored him for a bit, as I recall.

2. There's really nothing you can say to make up for over 50 years of difference between their ages/growth times. Not to mention that Maul spent a good decade rotting away as a crazy hermit, which makes up for your "intensive training" excuse anyway. And Dooku managed to study the Force and the dark side to a much greater degree, which we know also influences one's power.

Beniboybling
Would just like to point out that that "whipcrack" of power only floored Kenobi, it didn't KO him. This is the description of Dooku's KO:

Kenobi reached the top of the stairs and a single slash of his lightsaber dismantled both droids. Before their pieces could even hit the floor Dooku was in motion, landing a spinning side-stamp that folded Skywalker in half; he used his last burst of dark power to continue his spin into a blindingly fast wheel-kick that brought his heel against the point of Kenobi's chin with a crack like the report of a huge-bore slugthrower, knocking the Jedi Master back down the stairs. Sounded like he'd broken his neck.

Wouldn't that be lovely?

There was no sense in taking chances, however.

While Kenobi's bonelessly limp body was still tumbling toward the floor far below, Dooku sent a surge of energy through the Force. Kenobi's fall suddenly accelerated like a missile burning the last of its drives before impact. The Jedi Master struck the floor at a steep angle, skidded along it, and slammed into the wall so hard the hydrofoamed permacrete buckled and collapsed onto him.

This Dooku found exceedingly gratifying.

So yeah, there isn't really evidence that this is something he can easily accomplish. If anything it took a good beating.

MythLord

SunRazer
I think that refers to strength of character, but alright.

MythLord
I'm just here, waiting for ILS to see this thread, tbh roll eyes (sarcastic)

chingchangwalla
Maul disposed of Savage with little effort. If Savage is Obi-Wan territory that means Maul would have to be at least a tier up with the likes of Yoda and Sidious, I don't like that. Savage is a tier down from Anakin, Obi-Wan, Maul etc

chingchangwalla
But then I guess he did well against Dooku, Ventress and co so who knows. He's probably just inconsistent

Deronn_solo
Originally posted by MythLord
For 3/10 smile
As bad as ILS repeatedly smashes you on this subject, I can't help but to laugh at this claim - and your bias, kek.
thumb up

Beniboybling
Originally posted by MythLord
Um, Kenobi has collapsed four trees larger than a massive shuttle, blew apart Durge(who's unharmed by dozens of blaster bolts or explosions that damage Anakin), and has deflected blows from Mustafar Vader, traded telekinetic blows with Vader, and somehow that doesn't matter because he was floored by one of an enraged Savage's waves with his back turned?Collapsing a structure isn't quite the same as moving an object against the gravity and friction friend, regardless of size all he'd have to do is uproot and give them a push.

In fact, we see Kenobi exert notably more effort in pushing Durge's smaller craft.

And regarding Durge, first of all he isn't blaster proof, instead we've seen blasters go straight through him. And he only tanked an explosion when armoured, with undetermined damage done to his physical body.

So no, blowing apart a cell of Mandalorion iron > blowing apart Durge, and that's without scaling Savage of OCW's exaggerated showings. wink

Moving on, trading blows with a hindered Vader doesn't change the fact his feats are holistically inferior to Savage's, whose powers he's repeatedly been overwhelmed by. And considering Savage replicated that feat on Toydaria and his repulses have blown Maul off his feet, I really don't think Kenobi being forward facing would have made a difference.
A medium that lowballs Force sensitives? You mean TCW? The same medium from which all Savage's feats are derived? Lol, that makes them directly comparable, and also means you must concede that each and every of Savage's showings unrepresented his abilities. Funny how you fail to apply this standard to OCW, and talk about shooting yourself in the foot... erm

Also Kenobi's growth is what's important here, and I'm not seeing any evidence to suggesting it enough to make up for feats an order of magnitude superior to his own.The lightning Dooku threw at Savage made him almost a non-factor in the fight, so hardly, and he's employing his abilities against multiple opponents, so of course it's in plural.

And what with this obsession with being forward facing? Yes, Savage dominated Dooku fair and square, and it took "all the power" of Ventress and Dooku combined to defeat him. Essentially when enraged, Savage was far more powerful than him, so we can hardly claim when not, the opposite would be true, especially when Savage has advanced since then.

Let's not start changing the goalposts either, the claim made was that Dooku could ragdoll/KO Savage with his powers a la Kenobi, not just hurl him. But can you prove that? Dooku is 80 years old, his potential seems more or less fulfilled.

DarthAnt66
Maul can potentially solo. With Opress, Dooku is doomed.

The Ellimist
Are either really more powerful than RotS Obi Wan?

DarthAnt66
Is Dooku? mmm

Deronn_solo
I don't recall either being wrecked by pirates, you tell me. smile

The Ellimist
RotS Obi Wan stalemated Anakin/Vader's TK, and Dooku ragdolled him twice. Granted it was an emotional wreck of an Anakin so idk.

Beniboybling
Dooku > Anakin confirmed.

The Ellimist
Dooku > Mustafar Vader even if the latter may win due to a matchup advantage, yeah.

Kurk
Dooku >= Jedi Anakin
Dooku < Zonakin
Dooku << Mustafar Vader
Dooku < Suited Vader

Monstrous F4gg
dooku could win in a good location

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