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1. Force
2. All-out

Starting distance 10 meters

Probably Sidious. With a longer starting distance, Valkorion

Valk.
Valk.

Sidious.

Great arguments

I think only DE Sidious could beat Valky, and RotJ Sid is arguable.

Originally posted by Total Warrior
I think only DE Sidious could beat Valky, and RotJ Sid is arguable.

Skillz you're regressing

Sidious wins, may elaborate on computer

*Gets popcorn*
This should be interesting.

*Interesting happenings*

Sheev brings home both rounds in excellent fights.

Valkorion murders Sidious in Force only round, and kills decisively in all out.

Valkorion.

Sidious

It's difficult to dictate this battle by powerscaling if you accept that Valkorion isn't a sith. I suppose you could argue that Sidious's "the greatest master of evil ever to use sith power" accolade also covers Valkorion because he is a master of evil who has used sith power in his past, and the semantics of the statement technically applies to his having used sith power before, but whatever. We know from accolades that Sidious > Vitiate, and if you take the publisher's blurb seriously, that Plagueis > Vitiate, which would create some buffer for Sidious being above him by a fair margin (he grows more powerful upon Plagueis's death, and then presumably grows stronger for a decade), but then this would all depend on the extent to which Valkorion is above Vitiate. I would say not by too much. Most of Ziost likely went into just healing Vitiate. He probably runs into diminishing returns from Nathema-type events; otherwise, why didn't he just continuously replicate it and make himself god-like?

From feats, it's tougher to definitively put RotS Sidious above Valkorion, as I think you can with, say, RotJ or DE Sidious, because given his situation he can't really show off his Force abilities in a grandiose manner that frequently. I maintain that his and Plagueis's unbalancing the Force is significantly more impressive than anything Valkorion has accomplished on his own power. What Sidious does have the advantage in is combat feats - his blitzing the B-team, matching Yoda and tooling Maul and Oppress impresses me more than, what, one-shotting Darth Marr and knocking out Arcann? But it's tough to get an upper limit on Valk's abilities.

I still give this to Palpatine because of his abilities in close quarters, which mean that he likely wins the confrontation if their Force powers are relatively break even, and I see no compelling evidence to think that Valkorion's are so amazing as to win from a distance outright.

My personal head canon puts Valkorion as an equal to Plagueis in raw power, but that's just me.

Originally posted by Total Warrior
I think only DE Sidious could beat Valky, and RotJ Sid is arguable.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Valkorion.

Originally posted by Total Warrior
I think only DE Sidious could beat Valky, and RotJ Sid is arguable. probably

I'll say this is definitely a good fight, though. Sidious would be by far the most powerful foe Valkorion has ever faced.

Well, that's obvious.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Sidious would be by far the most powerful foe Valkorion has ever faced.

Can't say vice versa though.

I would say vice versa, just not "by far." Rather "solidly."

Prime Yoda ~ ROTJ Sid ~ Valkorion

in just Force, Luke > DE Sidious > Prime Yoda ~ RotJ Sidious > Yoda > Plagueis = Valkorion > Caedus = Krayt >= SWTOR Vitiate > Novel Vitiate > DE Luke > Vader > Galen Marek >= Revan

Originally posted by The Ellimist
in just Force, Luke > DE Sidious > Prime Yoda ~ RotJ Sidious > Yoda > Plagueis = Valkorion > Caedus = Krayt >= SWTOR Vitiate > Novel Vitiate > DE Luke > Vader > Galen Marek >= Revan

In my opinion.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
in just Force, Luke > DE Sidious > Prime Yoda ~ RotJ Sidious > Yoda > Plagueis = Valkorion > Caedus = Krayt >= SWTOR Vitiate > Novel Vitiate > DE Luke > Vader > Galen Marek >= Revan

Originally posted by The Ellimist
It's difficult to dictate this battle by powerscaling if you accept that Valkorion isn't a sith. I suppose you could argue that Sidious's "the greatest master of evil ever to use sith power" accolade also covers Valkorion because he is a master of evil who has used sith power in his past, and the semantics of the statement technically applies to his having used sith power before, but whatever.


I wonder how a statement released before Valkorion even existed could possible apply to Valkorion.



Nope. We do not.



Errorous reasoning in two ways. First: We do not know wether or not TPM Sidious was superior to Plagueis. We don't even know if that would be the case for RotS Sidious. Most statements regarding Sidious do either encompass his entire lifetime (meaning DE incarnation) or at least the movie era (meaning at least RotJ incarnation). How he progressed from what relative standing compared to Plagueis still remains everyones guess.



He is referred to as "godlike" in his incarnation as it is already. Probably he is so powerful already, that he considers everyone else so utterly beneath him, that it doesn't make a difference for him if he can gather additional power or not. I mean, what, we know that Valkorion exists as "spirit", because he wants to. One could even argue that he allowed himself to be killed in the first place.



I'm seriously wondering how:

a)
An "unbalancing" of the Force, that wasn't met with any kind of resistance, took months and two Sith is even compareable (in terms of applicated force powers) to Valkorion's ad-hoc exploits in that regard. Especially if we consider, that the Force was unbalanced to a certain extend before already (by Tenebrous and his master, if I recall that correctly) and Plagueis considers himself inferior to the Ancient Sith before said unbalancing happened, which would - theoretically - mean, that he considered everything he was capable of doing within their possibilities as well. They just didn't try.

b)
I fail to see how anything Sidious has done in combat beats summoning Force lightning that kills people in freaking, shielded star ships several hundred meters away while not even being aimed at them.



Firstly: I fail to see what Sidious' "close quarter" abilities are going to do against somebody who can just beat Sidious' lightsaber aside with his hands. Secondly: For "range" combat, you may want to consider what I listed under "b".



Which is, to be honest, laughable. Vitiate, being a force prodigy in his own right, drained 8,000 Sith Lords and with that raw power, had more than 1,000 years to hone his skills and gather knowledge about the Force. I don't see how anything - short of being a Skywalker - would be able to equal out that advantage on Valkorion's part.

I wonder why people still go for the passive retcon argument.

"I wonder how a statement released before Valkorion even existed could possible apply to Valkorion."

That's how sequels are made... by assuming that everything that has been previously established remains that way until there is a direct contradiction, which is why it's called a retcon... Otherwise, we can't have sequels because the original work gets automatically retconned just because a newer, unrelated source gets published.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I wonder why people still go for the passive retcon argument.

"I wonder how a statement released before Valkorion even existed could possible apply to Valkorion."

That's how sequels are made... by assuming that everything that has been previously established remains that way until there is a direct contradiction, which is why it's called a retcon... Otherwise, we can't have sequels because the original work gets automatically retconned just because a newer, unrelated source gets published.

First: A statement making an absolute claim regarding a certain category can't take into account additions later made to the category. By your logic, no Sith Lord can ever be more powerful than Sidious, regardless of what his story is, how powerful he is or what he does, because Sidious is set as eternal "upper limit". And that is not how SW continuity works - according to the head of SW continuity (Leland Chee).

Arguing this makes no sense at all. SW writers can't predict the future and neither will the SW:ToR writers even consider such an idea because - gosh - they don't even belong to Disney canon any longer. So why should they?

Second: The statement comes from on of the Visual Guides, that specifically only deal with stuff related to the movies. It was new to me, that Vitiate / Valkorion had a direct conection to the movie universe / canon and would, therefore be considered by the author of the statement in question. That idea appears rather absurd to me. Especially when we consider that movie only canon is pretty much the only reference frame in which Sidious is, without doubt, the most powerful Sith.

1. When did I ever say that Sidious can't ever be transcended? He can be transcended, the moment somebody gets an out-of-universe, third-person quote that applies to all of history declaring them as the most powerful Sith Lord. Until then, yes, he's canonically more powerful than anybody else. That's how continuity works. Unless something directly, irrevocably and irrefutably contradicts that, it stays that way.

2. Sidious isn't the most powerful Sith Lord by virtue of just one quote.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. When did I ever say that Sidious can't ever be transcended? He can be transcended, the moment somebody gets an out-of-universe, third-person quote that applies to all of history declaring them as the most powerful Sith Lord. Until then, yes, he's canonically more powerful than anybody else. That's how continuity works. Unless something directly, irrevocably and irrefutably contradicts that, it stays that way.

Nope.
That is not how continuity works. Starting with the fact that the content of the Visual Guides is neither "out of universe" nor in any form or shape binding. Those things are interpretations of what happens on screen and don't define anything. They are representation of the authors opinion and not some god (or LFL / Disney) given fact.



He also isn't the most powerful Sith Lord by virtue of any number of quotes, since all of them are subject to interpretation and falsification and themselves interpretations of the SW universe, mostly delivered via in-universe-character used as mouth pieces. In short: Just because some SW author or anybody in the SW universe thinks that Sidious is certainly the most powerful Sith Lord - doesn't make it so. "There will always be room for debate", as Leland Chee did once put it.

EDIT: you do have a few arguments to the below which I'll address

I'll respond more in depth tomorrow, Nai, but do you have any active reasons for Valkorion's victory to give in the meanwhile? The most you've provided is that he drained 8000 sith lords and had a lot of time to grow powerful - the former mostly went into his immortality, and the latter could apply to Yoda as well. You could just as easily use that to argue that he would've killed Revan with an eye blink...oh...wait...

Vitiate may have lots of implied power, but if he really were that powerful, a lot of the times in which he was challenged wouldn't have happened. So what are his actual demonstrations that propel him above Palpatine?

1. I'm not basing my opinion on the Visual Guide alone, so you can stop bringing that up. And yes, that is how continuities work, because otherwise, as I said, sequels and prequels would never exist. To have some measure of continuity, you have to assume that previously established material is exactly as it is until you choose to rewrite it, and that's what we call a retcon. You can't retcon anything passively, only actively.

And they're not god-given facts, they're canon facts. When an an author is given license to make his writing canon, it becomes... canon.

2. There's still more than one quote that's out-of-universe and not related to character opinions.

If multiple SW authors over multiple decades, given creative license and license to make their word canon, all agree on one thing - yeah, I'm going to take it as canon. That so many authors support each other's comments makes this one of the most strongly built cases in SW history.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I'll respond more in depth tomorrow, Nai, but do you have any active reasons for Valkorion's victory to give in the meanwhile? The most you've provided is that he drained 8000 sith lords and had a lot of time to grow powerful - the former mostly went into his immortality, and the latter could apply to Yoda as well. You could just as easily use that to argue that he would've killed Revan with an eye blink...oh...wait...


1)
Being described as outright prodigious in the Force, pretty much more than any other character in the mythos so far (going by age / demonstrated abilities). Killing a fully grown Sith Lord, conquering a planet and being proclaimed Sith Lord yourself by the age of, what, 13 (?) appears to be rather impressive. Then growing on that for - what - a hundred years?

2)
Draining 8,000 Sith Lords. While you think that most of that went to his immortality, I haven't even seen an allusion in that direction so far. Especially when we consider that Vitiate with his powers has pretty much rendered Scourge, Revan and his Servants immortal. Mind dominating those aforementioned 8,000 Sith Lords and use them for your ritual that zapped them (and the entire planet) empty, is another testament to Vitiate's power and knowledge.

3)
His actual demonstrations of power:

a)
Did, apparently, one-shot an entire Dark Council with a Force attack.

b)
Pretty much one-shots Revan, apparently not having the intent to kill him, given that he keeps him alive.

c)
One-Shots Darth Marr, one of the most powerful Sith the SW:ToR era Empire had to offer, given that he seems to be the defacto ruler of the Empire, which had people like Thanaton in the Dark Council.

d)
Produces kills on (usually shielded) star ships with his force lightning aimed at Arcann as "collateral damage", implying some vast amount of power.

e)
Being heralded as godlike and being put above all Sith that came before him, putting him on top of a pile that includes Tulak Hord, Freedon Nadd, Exar Kun, Naga Sadow, Ludo Kressh and Marka Ragnos. Knowing what some of those could do (as well as their implied powers) that is pretty awesome.

f)
Having more than a millenia to refine his skills and abilities and further his knowledge. In that time, he constructed the Dark Temple, corrupted the atmosphere of Dromund Kaas with his mere presence, created his Servants and Children and made Scourge immortal. The latter already implies that he is more knowledgeable / stronger in the force than post-balance shift Plagueis, who dreams of him and his apprentice being able to prolong their lifes for as long as the see fit.



This kind or argument is rather silly from a Sidious supporter, given that Sidious is not only confronted rather often, but is also defeated rather often in those kind of challenges.

Vitiate, as it seems, doesn't care much about whom confronts him, given that he deems himself far superior to any other being in the Galaxy - which he probably is. And up to this point, while there have been some drawbacks to his plans of course, he still remains there, despite all the effort that various factions did put in to see his demise. In his Valkorion persona, he doesn't even seem to care any longer about such things as existing as a corporeal being or as a spirit any longer. He pretty much is in a position where Exar Kun did want to go in his final moments: A spirit capable of running rampant through the Galaxy, if he so choses. I mean, seriously: There is nobody of really "stopping" him, is there?

@SunRazer
Originally posted by SunRazer
1. I'm not basing my opinion on the Visual Guide alone, so you can stop bringing that up. And yes, that is how continuities work, because otherwise, as I said, sequels and prequels would never exist. To have some measure of continuity, you have to assume that previously established material is exactly as it is until you choose to rewrite it, and that's what we call a retcon. You can't retcon anything passively, only actively.

And they're not god-given facts, they're canon facts. When an an author is given license to make his writing canon, it becomes... canon.

There are two fundamental problems in your way of thinking. The first one is your definition of the "established material" and the second is your definition of "canon".

For the first one, you may want to consider the difference between a "primary" and a "secondary" source. A "primary" source is a contempory account of events as the happen. A "secondary" source is interpreting primary sources, while being at least one step removed from the original event. They interpret, assign value to, conjecture upon, and draw conclusions about the events reported in primary sources.

Keeping that in mind, let me just put that into perspective with your definition of "canon". Canon, as understood in literature is not some form of "law" dictated by whomever defines what is canon or not. It is merely the body of work officially recognized by LFL as belonging to the Star Wars universe. But that doesn't mean it's dictating facts, as per definition of LFL officials themselves, where publications - even in terms of canon - are interpretations of things "happening in the SW universe" that might be rather abstract, and that makes the secondary sources interpretations of - possible - abstract interpretations.

And that means that the content of the secondary source material is not the "gospel according to LFL". Which is, simply put, a notoriously stupid idea in the first place to everyone who did or does actually study. That's like viewing research literature (which most Sourcebook, Guides and the likes are) as some sort of holy scripture, which is just hilarious. Especially when the primary sources may already contain hyperboles, outright light, false information or contradict eachother.

The depiction of the events surrounding the actions of Kun's spirit would be a good example. The "Jedi Academy"-Trilogy certainly depicts them much different than "I, Jedi" does. Yet both are "canon". SW:ToR, also belonging to "canon" contradicts virtually all other sources when handling the Sith spirits on Yavin 4 (with Ragnos certainly not belonging there). Still "canon". The Official Star Wars Fact File happily proclaims that Exar Kun was "the most powerful and dangerous of all Sith Lords", while the SW:ToR Encyclopedia happily calls Vitiate "godlike" on various occassions. So one has to wonder what would be more powerful than "godlike" apparently.

And that is why you're probably better of making sense of the primary source material yourself instead of just tossing quotes from the secondary source material around as "absolute" or "binding" statements. Everyone half way educated will simply laugh at that - and rightfully so.



If it's "out of universe" it can not be "canon" and there is nothing in canon that is "out of universe".



Neither does it turn their interpretations into some sort of "holy words" nor do they even agree on anything. We know, just for example, that Kevin J. Anderson couldn't even say wether Kun (his creation) or Sidious is the more powerful Sith. The KotoR writers made sure to let some of the Ancient Sith (and them as a group) shine, while the SW:ToR does the same, with the addition of Vitiate / Valkorion as some sort of "godlike" entity. But because all of that is abstract and partitially not even well known, it makes sense for an author of secondary material to stick with the obvious things, e.g. turning the most well-known "Sith Lord / Master" figure into the "most powerful", without looking much to the left or right. And the way they usually do it makes sure that they don't make their ideas "binding" in the grant scheme of things.

And, yes. It is one of the "most strongly built cases" in SW history. Which makes it so outright pathetic and boring in the first place. The best stance to take for pathetic and boring people either inable or unwilling to think for themselves.

But to be even more funny: It doesn't make any sense to argue it in the context of versus fights, where single abilities, skills or powers could "close" any kind of power gap, rendering the relative positioning of the combatants rather mood.

Great post. Nai, who do you put second to Valkorion? Kun, Palpatine, Krayt, or someone else?

Nova got bodied, yeah.

Originally posted by Nai
If it's "out of universe" it can not be "canon" and there is nothing in canon that is "out of universe".

Huh, Nai's superiority complex has apparently reached the point he thinks he dictates what is canon more than Leland Che does.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Nova got bodied, yeah.

Nai in this thread.

Originally posted by Selenial
Huh, Nai's superiority complex has apparently reached the point he thinks he dictates what is canon more than Leland Che does.

Give me "out of universe" statements that are considered "canon". It's not what I think is canon or not. It's that some people have a very questionable definition of "out of universe" in regards to SW canon.

Originally posted by Nai
There are two fundamental problems in your way of thinking. The first one is your definition of the "established material" and the second is your definition of "canon".

We'll see.



Not sure if the first thing I want is for this to turn into a History lesson, but I'll keep that in mind. That said, unlike real-life examples where secondary sources are always written from a specific perspective or point of view (and cannot be truly "out-of-universe", Star Wars, as a fictional franchise, can publish secondary sources with a truly objective and "out-of-universe" perspective. They may be written by specific authors, but they're considered canon.



Which is why I specifically said that they were not "god-given", as you previously described them. However, as you said, Canon is something that is authoritatively recognized by LFL as part of the SW continuity. What I referred to in my earlier post is exactly that - accepted as part of the SW continuity. Novels, games, comics, etc. represent canonical stories; sourcebooks represent canonical tie-ins or additions of canonical information and backstories. That I'm aware, every source has listed sourcebooks as part of canon - ie. part of valid continuity, or at least, I have yet to find a source that states the opposite.



Continuity "dictates facts" because there's a distinction between what's irrefutably valid and what's arbitrary.



I don't recall describing this as "gospel" at any point, but interestingly enough, the first issue of Star Wars Insiders describes canon precisely as "gospel".



I never described canon as "holy scripture", so keep trying to put words in my mouth.



Perspective plays a part in that, but contradicting details are retconned by the newer source - ie. the older details become outdated and are "written out" of continuity, in other words, having no more place in SW continuity. That has yet to happen to any of Palpatine's accolades, and as a result, they stand. It's that simple.



Actually, this is an area that can debated quite thoroughly. The spirits exist there as easter eggs, or game mechanics. The only reference to their spirits in actual canonical lore would be Satele Shan referring to sensing the presence of "the ancient Sith", which could refer to any of them. Ragnos himself is never specifically written to inhabit Yavin at any time.



To repeat what I said before, Kun's most powerful quote was a direct contradiction to Sidious' quotes that lauded him as the most powerful. Had continuity never been altered, indeed, Kun would now be the most powerful Sith Lord in history.

Except, the quote has been retconned. The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia changes it to Kun being "once the most powerful", whilst that source and others since proclaim Palpatine as the most powerful. That's my point - there's never since been a retcon of Palpatine's quotes, hence they stand.



I'm not sure what you're talking about. I'm calling upon canon for its validity and veracity, not because it's some god-enforced "holy scripture". It's "binding" in that it's confirmed by higher authorities (ie. LFL) to be relevant and truthful with respects to continuity. That's not the case with the arbitrary interpretations we've got going on here in the forums, because there is no established truth or continuity. The idea of a retcon is to maintain continuity - if there's a contradiction, then the older stuff gets written out to avoid a confliction.

Here on the forums, there's no such things. People get called out for "double standards", and rightfully so, but ultimately, it's up to you to decide what you say, so you can spout all the double standards you want. The purpose of retconning is to prevent the continuity-equivalent of double standards from taking place in established continuity.

That you've spent half of your post going on a tirade about my definition of canon and putting words in my mouth when I haven't even elaborated upon it is pretty presumptuous of you. I never declared Canon as a "gospel" or divinely enforced scripture, but I reference it as a higher authority for the simple fact that its authoritatively approved as part of SW continuity, whereas our opinions and arbitrary interpretations aren't. That's all.

On the other hand, you've absolutely failed to even mention my actual argument pertaining to the case of Sidious being the most powerful, which, in no way, is dependent on canon being "holy scripture", but the fact that it's never been directly retconned. There's never been an established change or rewriting or contradiction of Sidious' accolades, except by the one that declared Kun as the most powerful, but that was quickly retconned to him just being "once the most powerful" whilst sources maintained the case for Sidious being the most powerful. That should tell you something. Vitiate doesn't count since all of the sources that depict him as the most powerful Sith Lord only refer to history up to and of his time, not to mention all of them being in-universe.

But since you place so much emphasis on my definition of canon, I'll be sure to elaborate on it in the future.



Absolutely untrue. Even screenplays are "canon", as per Star Wars Insider, and sourcebooks operate much in the same way. They're objective (or we're supposed to take them as objective, with the exception of character-given statements) commentary/exposition on events in continuity. Sounds like it's you who needs to learn to distinguish between two things now. "Out-of-universe" and "out-of-continuity' are entirely different things. The former relates to not being written with no regarding perspective and timeframe - ie. third-person omniscient perspective, which is to be taken as objective. "Out-of-continuity" is, very simply, non-canon, and that's what you're confusing with "out-of-universe".

Continued from last page....



His indecisiveness doesn't undermine the veracity of the numerous sources describing Palpatine as the most powerful Sith. Moreover, despite your lecturing me on the definition of canon, you don't seem to be taking on board what you're saying. Kevin J. Anderson's comments in interviews and emails are not "canon" because they are not part of continuity. He does not say or write them in the context of being given license to make his words canon - in other words, he is not saying or writing those words in the context of being given license to make them a part of continuity. The difference is, Palpatine's quotes are canon, or in other words, they are all written in the context of continuity. Each of those quotes were written whilst the authors were given license to make those words a part of continuity. Anderson's interview/email responses lack that license.



I have no idea what you're saying here. It's well understood that continuity isn't perfect, especially when you have hundreds of different authors with different perspectives on things. The idea to make continuity as balanced and uniform across different media and perspectives as possible.



You might very well think that; but that seems to me to be more of a case of confirmation bias than anything else. Yes, that there's a recurring established theme, especially with regards to something as controversial as Force Power is not ideal, but regardless, it exists. You have to accept that. Palpatine's quotes were all written when the authors had the license to make their words canon - to make their words an established part of continuity - and that hasn't changed. There's never been a contradiction to that. Nobody has changed the fact that Palpatine is the most powerful Sith Lord in history. That's what makes it a canon fact. Palpatine is factually the most powerful Sith Lord in history, whatever you think of it or however you like it.



This is one part of your post I agree on. Sidious being factually more powerful than any other Sith Lord only pertains to the fact that he is more powerful, but that is not an immediate win in of itself. There are various factors involved in a fight, and power is but one of them. Characters have lost to others who are less powerful than them before, and it could well happen again. The problem is that Sidious knows almost every single ability, skill and power, and he's mastered them all to the utmost degree. That's what makes him so hard to beat in threads. That being said, I only referred to Sidious being the most powerful Sith Lord in this thread - I never once referred to it as the basis for him winning this fight. So once again, you're putting words in my mouth.

Now, for our friends who lack the ability to distinguish one thing from another (like you, I'm afraid) - what I just said is arbitrary. My agreement with your stance and my exposition of that is all arbitrary. That is not, in any way, canon, because I did not obtain license to make those words a part of continuity. What is canon, however, is the collection of quotes from sourcebooks that proclaim Sidiou as the most powerful Sith Lord in history, because those were all written under license to make them canon, and they have yet to contradicted or "disestablished".

So let's recap everything in these last two posts:

1. You've gone on a frivolous and irrelevant tirade on my definition of "canon" when I had yet to actually elaborate what my definition of canon was. That was just the first of your attempts to put words in my mouth, and funnily enough, we actually have more or less the same view of what is and isn't canon.

2. In doing so, you've completely neglected to respond to the crux of my argument pertaining to why Sidious' "most powerful" quotes are still valid - not because them being canon makes them irreversible and untouchable, but the fact that they've never been contradicted or altered makes Sidious being the most powerful Sith Lord in history an established, factual and objective principle of SW continuity that has yet to be disputed. As thus, there's nothing that can defy such a consistently established principle except confirmation biases and personal desires to see other characters be more powerful.

3. You've then made another verbose, impertinent diatribe about how "being the most powerful" doesn't automatically let you win a fight. I agree with that, but once again, you put words into mouth - I never once in this thread cited that "being the most powerful" was an automatic win for Sheev.

The saddest part about all this is that you didn't need to feed words into my mouth, because I actually agreed with you on those areas. Nevertheless, you've still failed to address the crux of my argument pertaining to why Sidious' quotes are still valid and should be taken. Most of your post actually wasn't even all that relevant to mine, with excessive feeding of words into my mouth, so it's a wonder that my response was so long.

I apologize if my post was repetitive in many areas, but I was trying to drive home a couple of key concepts that you weren't getting - and really, that's all you need to bring up when discussing why Sidious' quotes are or aren't valid.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Nova got bodied, yeah.

The idea that I got "bodied" because Nai got in a wall of text as the last word is pretty hilarious, especially considering that I was sleeping when he posted that and had to go to work. I don't get to spend 24/7 on the forum.

That said, if you think you can do better, you can try me (or him), right now. That you've built up a reputation for consistently failing to turn up to CaV's makes me think you wouldn't have half the energy required to respond to these wall-of-text back-and-forths, so I wouldn't sit there quipping about who's getting destroyed and who isn't.

Otherwise, shall we say that everyone and their grandmother who challenged you to a CaV on CV bodied you as well? No? Well, I didn't think so. Sit down and watch, junior. That's all you have to do.

Made a mistake on the last page.

"They may be written by specific authors, but they're considered canon."

I mean to say "they're considered objective".

Originally posted by SunRazer
His indecisiveness doesn't undermine the veracity of the numerous sources describing Palpatine as the most powerful Sith. Moreover, despite your lecturing me on the definition of canon, you don't seem to be taking on board what you're saying. Kevin J. Anderson's comments in interviews and emails are not "canon" because they are not part of continuity. He does not say or write them in the context of being given license to make his words canon - in other words, he is not saying or writing those words in the context of being given license to make them a part of continuity. The difference is, Palpatine's quotes are canon, or in other words, they are all written in the context of continuity. Each of those quotes were written whilst the authors were given license to make those words a part of continuity. Anderson's interview/email responses lack that license.

To add to this, Drew Karpyshin himself said that if you ask an author a question about something that isn't already referenced in a source, then their opinions on the subject shouldn't be taken as 100% canon.

Yes, that really should go without saying. Citing author quotes on anything other than clarification of how they intended to write something or what they intended something to mean as a piece of evidence is pretty laughable. I mean, some authors are more reliable than others when it comes to giving answers (and Karpyshyn isn't one of them), but they're still hardly reliable pieces of evidence. The fact that even Karpyshyn can see that authors aren't the most reliable of sources is a pretty strong indicator.

That said, I don't think that's quite what Nai was going for.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Nova got bodied, yeah.

A bit premature DC

Declaring the victor before someone has the chance to respond is tasteless, the kind of attitude that has left many a gambler out of pocket. Yes, Nova's response was solid... and even greater in verbosity. Which is saying something coming from a Palpatine-skeptic, and one who's still not convinced the Emperor can defeat Sion.

Tbh for everyone whose thumbed up Nai I haven't seen a single one of them take his approach to continuity, lol.

Well, I'm not going to deny it was more verbose. But succinctness has never been my strength.

That said, Ziggy, you can drop the act. You already admitted that Sidious > Traya.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Well, I'm not going to deny it was more verbose. But succinctness has never been my strength.

That said, Ziggy, you can drop the act. You already admitted that Sidious > Traya.

The verdict is still out on that one...

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
The verdict is still out on that one...

Not at all. You admitted that you didn't actually think that Traya could beat Sidious in one of the other threads, and that you did it to test us or something along those lines. I generally don't see much merit in engaging in discussions with people who don't even believe the stance they're taking up. Besides, I'm already addressing an anti-Palpatine argument here anyway.

Still, compliments from you are rare, so I'll take what I can get.

I like how Razer just slammed the logic of half the forum and I am the first one to comment on it.

Hey AP,

shut the **** up

Do you need to be educated on the terms 'discussion', 'forum' and such?

Razer, you really must be hitting em hard.

Originally posted by SunRazer
The idea that I got "bodied" because Nai got in a wall of text as the last word is pretty hilarious, especially considering that I was sleeping when he posted that and had to go to work. I don't get to spend 24/7 on the forum.

That said, if you think you can do better, you can try me (or him), right now. That you've built up a reputation for consistently failing to turn up to CaV's makes me think you wouldn't have half the energy required to respond to these wall-of-text back-and-forths, so I wouldn't sit there quipping about who's getting destroyed and who isn't.

Otherwise, shall we say that everyone and their grandmother who challenged you to a CaV on CV bodied you as well? No? Well, I didn't think so. Sit down and watch, junior. That's all you have to do.

Did I perhaps strike a nerve? LAL, lighten up Nova kek.

I was just joking around a bit. You know me well enough not to take most things I say at face value.

I do, but I had to get out excess energy from my bible-posting somehow.

Do you want a hug?

Don't relent now, finish them.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Hey AP,

shut the **** up

Originally posted by AncientPower
Don't relent now, finish them.

Nah, DC still subscribes to Palpatine's supremacy.

You do, don't you, DC?

Ziggy, you aren't even as annoying as Carthage and your posts are just giving Nai's arguments a bad name. You are irrelevant.

And your fagotry makes Chris Crocker look Hetro

Um... she's a woman, so not sure how she can be a ******.

Eww, no, I don't want a hug from your old ass Nova.

Will you hug me, bae?

I'll leave you to the Valkoriates then. You'll regret not choosing the Sheevites.

Originally posted by MythLord
Will you hug me, bae?
Yes, my love. <3

Originally posted by SunRazer
I'll leave you to the Valkoriates then. You'll regret not choosing the Sheevites.
Bart's already converted. It's only a matter of time before you succumb to Val's power Nova.....

You might very well think that. I couldn't possibly comment.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
And your fagotry makes Chris Crocker look Hetro

Homophobia is the strongest sign of insecurity and latent homosexuality. But sure, your blatant immaturity isn't at all strengthening my point.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Homophobia is the strongest sign of insecurity and latent homosexuality. But sure, your blatant immaturity isn't at all strengthening my point.

Setting the annoying threshold at carthage-level was an oversight. You're definitely the most annoying personality here, without intention

For the thread: I think Valky beats this version of Sidious and probably any version of Sidious. Which might not come as a surprise to anyone, but if you really look at a side by side comparison of the two, it's very possible that Vitiate might be stronger than his supposed 'counterpart' at the age of 13. But as the centuries pass it's unquestionable. The environment and era he was born under forces competition. And rather than the romantic... and somewhat overdone notion of light vs dark, good vs evil, Jedi vs Sith, the remnants of the Old Sith Empire had to prepare for combat against archaic sith techniques. Plenty of this is stuff Palaptine hadn't access to given the amount of knowledge lost in various wars , such as the planet-sized storehouse known as Malchor V. To put the final nail in the coffin, he only has to maintain superiority over his apprentices... two schlubs and a half-crippled roboman in the grand scheme of things. So when someone of actual worth comes to challenge him, who's learning of the dark ways are completely independent, have lasted over a millennium and come from a broader pool of knowledge, it is only logical to assume that Palpatine gets dethroned in direct confrontation with said individual. That aside, his ritual on Nathema makes the domination of Byss look like a sad joke, and his immortality does - as a matter of fact - eclipse anything Plaugeis and Sidious ever achieved.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Except, the quote has been retconned. The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia changes it to Kun being "once the most powerful", whilst that source and others since proclaim Palpatine as the most powerful. That's my point - there's never since been a retcon of Palpatine's quotes, hence they stand.
The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia represents perspective of historians! FYI.

Historians like Gnost Dural, who's subjective opinion may or may not be wrong.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Nova got bodied, yeah.

Patience is a virtue

Gonna crush Nai soon.

Look a few posts above. LeGenD absolutely DESTROYED nova.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Hey AP,

shut the **** up

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
AP got bodied, yeah.

Hopefully Nai catches this. Perhaps someone can notify him?

Originally posted by Nai
1)
Being described as outright prodigious in the Force, pretty much more than any other character in the mythos so far (going by age / demonstrated abilities). Killing a fully grown Sith Lord, conquering a planet and being proclaimed Sith Lord yourself by the age of, what, 13 (?) appears to be rather impressive. Then growing on that for - what - a hundred years?


The Force progresses at somewhat uneven rates within characters, so while prodigiousness is presumably correlated with potential, it isn't exact. AotC Anakin is probably weaker than RoT Bane, despite obviously having more potential and about the same number of years of practice, but then between AotC and RotS he vastly outstrips him. Indeed, didn't Plagueis himself speculate that Palpatine may have been so powerful that the dark side hid itself in him?



Mind dominating them could very well have been tied into the ritual itself, in the same manner the thought bomb consumed Kaan and all his followers but doesn't prove Kaan is powerful enough to solo the brotherhood. Now yes, the 8000 sith lords made him more powerful - but how do you quantify this increase? Just taking it at face value you'd predict that on a dark side nexus and almost a thousand years later he'd be able to one-shot Scourge, Meetra and even Revan...oh.

It's possible for Palpatine to have been born so powerful in the Force that he could compensate for Vitiate's artificial boosts via his sheer natural ability. It certainly fits with his character and role as the pinnacle of the Banite line, and Plagueis's own speculations.



With prep, on a nexus, which he never replicates.



Actually, he gets his lightning knocked back at him, and disarmed by Meetra's saber throw. He overwhelms Revan (on a dark side nexus) using a charged lightning attack. Sidious, meanwhile, pushed Yoda's tutanimis to its limits without the need for any build-up.



Sidious one-shot Agen Kolar, one of the greatest duelists in the Order's history. He also effectively one-shots Yoda at the beginning of their duel - Yoda was caught off guard, but frankly he had more grounds to be prepared than a Marr who was busy killing Valkorion's guards was.



He disables them, probably by screwing with their control systems, he doesn't literally bust their armor. Yoda, however, does destroy two massive droid landing ships with sheer telekinesis.



And Sidious is considered by a reputable historian, as well as Darth Vader, to be the most powerful sith lord who had ever existed. Seeing as how none of those sith you mentioned have ever repeated feats on their own power to match those of Sidious's or Yoda's, that really doesn't impress me.




Or it implies that he knows things that Sidious and Plagueis don't, just like how Plagueis can manipulate midichlorians and shift the balance of the Force and Valkorion can't.

BTW, it's pretty heavily implied that Plagueis had achieved biological immortality.



Um...no? Sidious only ever loses in a direct confrontation twice; once to Mace Windu, and the other to Luke. In the former case, Windu is using vaapad to draw off of Sidious's own energies, and in the latter case Luke is being amped by Leia's Force harmony.



Which doesn't change the fact that he has never fought anyone on Sidious's level, nor he has ever dominated combatants as powerful as those Sidious has, nor has ever matched Sidious's best Force feats on his own power. The only feat you gave me that wasn't either the product of rituals or a nexus was his one-shotting Darth Marr - and heck, isn't the throne room a nexus?

Cosmologically, unbalancing the Force (even if the Force didn't actively fight back, there's still inertia) strikes me as more impressive than, well, whatever Valkorion has done without a nexus. In personal combat, matching Yoda is more impressive than one-shotting Darth Marr. There's pretty much nothing you've provided to place Valkorion on Sidious's level beyond speculation about how much his rituals have amped him that would have led us to believe that novel Vitiate could've instantly killed the trio that confronted him (spoiler: he didn't). I suppose you could argue that Valkorion doesn't really have a clear upper limit on his powers, so he could be stronger than Sidious - but that doesn't make it probable given what we've seen from him.

Valkorion takes this with some difficulty. And also I could say some things about Sidious which were singularities as well, though. Like charring three Prophets(on a dark side nexus); and he never replicates that feat again. He never turned Windu into ash when he fully blasted him with Force lightning, he never did it against Yoda; nor again Galen Marek. We never see Sidious replicating his life-drain feat in Star Wars, except the Byss thing. We never see him replicating again that rubbing Coruscant memory feat(it's even debateable if that really happened; as it was Wedge the one who wished to believe Palpy rubbed the people's mind IIRC)
We never see him replicating the DBZ speed feat again. But obviously it is nothing more but that blurry speed which can be replicated by many trained Force-users. We never see him manipulating the midi-chlorians(at its fullest as he claims to)
On the other hand; Vitiate killed a fully-fledged Dark Lord. Was from a young age a ruler.
He mind-bent 8000 Sith Lords to his will and maintained a great control over long days. And also to say it was a part of the ritual; it's just stupid. That would mean Vitiate had to be mindraped too as he was a part of the ritual, essentially, as well. And the Thought-bomb is created when darksiders combine their strengths; no one is mindraped in that ritual.
Vitiate could create monoliths at will; destroyed guys with a flash of lightning.
And also to say he needed dark side nexuses, it's just stupid since he mindraped 8000 Lords before the Nathema ritual(so the magnitude of his other Force powers should be, essentially, the same)
Valkorion being amped, makes almost no sense; when you take in fact that every darksider's amped by dark nexuses, not just one. And in order to be amplified by a Force nexus; you actually have to be willing to use it.
Sidious charring those Prophets was a remote event which never repeated after. So it's safe to assume he amplified his Force lightning attack from the dark side nexus from there.
Sidious bends Windu's blade; and yet he never repeats that feat again, ever.
Sidious never mind-bent Luke, Vader, Dooku, Maul, no team of Jedi or "Sith", whereas Vitiate did it. Vitiate mind-raped an entire planet(Ziost); one-shot Darth Marr with lightning and those guys before as Vitiate with a flash of lightning. Sidious failed at killing Luke on the Death Star with Force lightning in one-shot whereas Valkorion did it and had done it before. Palpy never mind-bent any Force-user instantly, Valkorion did it three times(Medriaas, Revan+Malak, Ziost)
Palpatine couldn't never share his essence with others; Vitiate could. He couldn't make other people immortal, Vitiate could. Revan and Marr had no idea how to contain Valkorion's essence; while Palpatine was easily dragged down into Chaos by the dead Jedi's spirits in Dark Empire. If that were possible in Valkorion's case while he was existing in a disembodied form; the Jedi'd have had dragged him just as they did in Sidious' case. And Plagueis and Palpatine acted according to the Force's will. It wasn't their god-like DBZ Ultra Mega Super Hype Power that allowed them to do that. They just did the Force's will.
I know that it might sound stupid; but that's it.
It's funny to think that both Nihilus and Valkorion were never dragged down by the dead Jedi's spirits and they were a threat to the galaxy meaning they were focusing to kill the galaxy... I'm pretty sure the dead Jedi's spirits'd have done that if they could.
Don't read my last thing; I was just going off-topic.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Don't read my last thing; I was just going off-topic.

Didn't read any of it tbh.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
It's funny to think that both Nihilus and Valkorion were never dragged down by the dead Jedi's spirits and they were a threat to the galaxy meaning they were focusing to kill the galaxy... I'm pretty sure the dead Jedi's spirits'd have done that if they could.


Or maybe because it wasn't needed. More proof of Palpatine's superiority.

Valkorion hasn't died yet.

We know he does die at some point, though.

Nihilus didn't need it, anyhow.

But we don't know the context or what happens.

Nihilus was consuming himself and running on stolen power in the first place. Dude was already a spirit having consumed his own body.

Besides, Sidious only survived Endor with help from ancient Sith spirits.

1. Yeah. Though if the Jedi spirits were still available by DE, chances were they weren't expended on trying to keep Valkorion down.

2. So? His spirit would've still descended into the netherworld, yet it wasn't necessary for all the Jedi spirits to restrain him.

3. Pretty sure that's retconned, and anyhow, Sidious re-emerged from chaos through sheer will.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Or maybe because it wasn't needed. More proof of Palpatine's superiority.
I fail to see how two galactic threats that were focused on kill the galaxy; one out of pure willingness, the other because he was forced to.
I fail to see how it proves Palpatine's superiority, TBH.

Your first sentence (and thus your post) doesn't even make sense.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. Yeah. Though if the Jedi spirits were still available by DE, chances were they weren't expended on trying to keep Valkorion down.

2. So? His spirit would've still descended into the netherworld, yet it wasn't necessary for all the Jedi spirits to restrain him.

3. Pretty sure that's retconned, and anyhow, Sidious re-emerged from chaos through sheer will.
Actually the part of Sidious escaping Netherrealm alone was retconned by the Sith\dark side spirits helping Sidious to come back.
And also add the fact that the Sith dudes helped Sidious to return back; it's no wonder why Jedi spirits dragged down Sidious in the Chaos dimension and decided to stay there?(IIRC) So, in fact he was busted that way not because he was a Super Saiyan Hyper Ultra Mega Nova Sith god, but because there was a chance that Sidious'd have always returned from the Chaos(helped by the spirits-from there) An ensurance, if you will.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Your first sentence (and thus your post) doesn't even make sense.
My long post has nothing to do with these short post. They're somewhat off-topic. I know that. But I do have the right to go off-topic as long as no one is pissed off.

I'm referring to that short, two-sentence post you just sent me, lol.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I'm referring to that short, two-sentence post you just sent me, lol.

Claim: Your post makes no sense
Statement(with proof): Your post makes no sense
Enlighten me, if you will.
I am not a sobby guy. I am willing to learn from anyone who's right about something. Tell me what. And I'll concede.

"I fail to see how two galactic threats that were focused on kill the galaxy; one out of pure willingness, the other because he was forced to."

Please explain what this means.

Originally posted by SunRazer
"I fail to see how two galactic threats that were focused on kill the galaxy; one out of pure willingness, the other because he was forced to."

Please explain what this means.
Just because you don't understand; doesn mean it makes no sense.
I wanted to say two shits ready to destroy the Force in the galaxy(planets, etc) almost in a "rapid way", especially Nihilus, had he not died by Palpy's sister's plot; and no spirit came to take their souls into the Netherrealm.
That was the idea .

Yeah, I still have no idea what you're saying. At this rate, I think it's best that we terminate this discussion here.