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Both are at their respevetive unamped peaks.
Rounf 1: Force
Round 2: Sabers
Round 3: All out
Tryinng to gauge where Tenebrous stands on the forum, since he seems to be all over the place .....

Tenebrous in an intense combat. And yes, Revan > Vader.

I barely have Tenebrous above Dooku, honestly. But I wanna know where he stands with other people.

Ehh. I don't think Dooku holds a candle to the late Banites, like at all. Especially if you find Bane, "loosely comparable" to Revan, and believe in Banite scaling.

Revan in all, keks

Revan butchers.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Revan butchers.

I mean, Tenebrous' best feats doesn't even put him above Thana Vesh. Like, god damn.

Thana is a tsundere goddess though.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I mean, Tenebrous' best feats doesn't even put him above Thana Vesh. Like, god damn.

Kinda dumb you're gauging Tenebrous solely by feats, tbfh.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Kinda dumb you're gauging Tenebrous solely by feats, tbfh.
Tenebrous doesn't win the hype contest either unless you're putting Plagueis significantly Revan's superior, which he isn't.

Plagueis is equally powerful as Novel Vitiate.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Plagueis is equally powerful as Novel Vitiate.
Even that stupidity doesn't put Tenebrous above Revan.

Reborn absorbed so much of Vitiate's charged, nexus lightning that all that was left was energy he could physically tank and heal from.

And then he's allegedly more powerful as his Returned incarnation, and shows to be able to internally tank one kilometer of energy.

Tenebrous isn't doing that to Plagueis. Come back home, Skillz. Come back home.

Ant stomping so far

Why would there be a massive gap between Tenebrous and Plagueis?

Tenebrous.

What feats does Tenebrous have

Hah! Good one.

Actually, in a number of the areas that Tenebrous has shown feats in, they're better than Revan's.

And I'm not sure why there's suddenly a massive gap between Plagueis and Tenebrous, either.

Given that Plagueis was already on even playing fields with Tenebrous at his death; gained a substantial amount of power right after killing him - then further increased that power over the decades by a significant amount, then yeah; the gap would be pretty huge, tbh.

The gap is pretty much the same (proportionally) between every Banite Master and their Apprentice. I meant that Plagueis and Tenebrous would have no difference to say, Bane and Zannah.

Speculatively sure. Alternatively tho, one could make a case for Plagueis being an anomaly to the rule.

Given how little is actually known of Sith from the Banite Line --- that kinda logic couldn't be proven to be right, or wrong. It's either you believe, or don't.

Is it not believable?

Tenebrous has to be massively above Dooku for Banite scaling to work. Plagueis may have been an anomaly, but there are some documented cases and presumably more where the apprentice kills the master in single
combat, often before their prime. Tenebrous himself thought he and Plagueis were passing some line in their order's history, and maybe he was delusional, but Plagueis didn't seem to disagree and his own power speaks for itself.

Tenebrous is probably above or at least near Vader, and thus beats Revan, with his saber skills breaking any reservations.

Stupidity at its finest.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Is it not believable?

Personal, it falls perfectly in line with the overall narrative.

I believe both Plagueis and Palpatine where both significantly above any of the Banite Sith. With the gap between Damask and Tenebrous resembling the one between Darth Vader and Sidious by RotJ.

Well, that's my thoughts on the matter at least. We'll never know for certain given the window of Legends canon is shut for good.

With an unknown like Tenebrous, we need to defer to the most probable explanation - and putting him at Dooku level requires us to believe that the Banite sith were stagnant for thirty generations, which would make a lot of the quotes citing gradual accumulation or build up pretty deceptive.

Yeah, if Plagueis is around novel-SWTOR Vitiate in Force Power, then Tenebrous being Revan-tier or even more powerful than him isn't that hard to believe.

Well, sure in hindsight I admit - Tene being "barely" above Dooku was a understatement on my part.

But being above Dooku, and being on even playing fields - or greater - than Revan, is two completely different monsters entirely.

I still rank Tenebrous firmly below Revan's tier, honestly.

Below Revan to Plagueis is a pretty massive gap, and there's no evidence to support the idea that Plagueis was that much of an outlier to make like 30% of the past thirty RoT jumps.

Kek, I'd argue Sidious should be considered the uncharacteristic jump in power, not Plagueis.

@Skillz - Definitely. I think everybody agrees on Sidious being the outlier - not sure why Plagueis would be.

He almost certainly is, and Plagueis was probably larger than normal, but given this we can still put Tenebrous above Vader and subsequently Revan.

And as such, Tenebrous, while noticeably behind Plagueis, is sill above the likes of Revan and Vader, imho.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
And as such, Tenebrous, while noticeably behind Plagueis, is sill above the likes of Revan and Vader, imho.

Agreed again.

I have Plagueis = Valkorion in the Force, but that's probably a minority opinion.

It is. I have Valk ~ ROTJ Sidious in the force, tbch.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I have Plagueis = Valkorion in the Force, but that's probably a minority opinion.
There's a distinction between minority and retarded.

Do you have something to contribute, or are you just going to follow me around and make a snide comment on every opinion I express?

All I see is a circle jerk of speculative opinions, kek.

Like it or not; no one here has a way to definitively rank Tenebrous above the likes of Vader and Revan. I certainly don't see Tenebrous as having 80% of Palpatine's power.

I honestly think ROTJ Sid ~ Valk in the force is the perfect ranking. It's the best of both worlds, incredibly beautiful to say the least.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I honestly think ROTJ Sid ~ Valk in the force is the perfect ranking. It's the best of both worlds, incredibly beautiful to say the least.

Golden mean fallacy aside, by RotJ Sidious has pulled off some ludicrous feats that outstrip anything Valkorion has done on his own power.. He's even beat him on telepathy, affecting planetary populations - and even Coruscant - while Vitiate used a nexus and a ritual. Plus he has already unbalanced the Force, and can create, albeit not control, Force storms.

I am inclined to think that RotS Sidious could have done many of those things but needed to hide his presence.

Either way, Valkorion's power could lie anywhere from Plagueis (or below) to RotS Sidious, but RotJ is too much.

Also lightsaber skills would break the tie in a fight.

Uh, the destruction of Ziost?

Done with the energy of its inhabitants, a nexus (iirc), several hours of prep, and probably a ritual Nathema-style.

Tbh Sidious's mind wipe of that star destroyer event affected way more people than the population of Ziost.

The destruction of Ziost put him at Valkorion level.

That was the whole point.

Also, the energy of the inhabitants were drained in effort to get him back to normal level, Byss was a nexus too, and nothing states prep or ritual.

Vitiate's Ziost feat was ultimately done while immensely weakened, though, and we don't know if it was a ritual or if he needed several hours of meditation/preparation or what have you.

@Ant

Putting Tenebrous below Vader must mean that Vader could snap Bane's neck with a gesture. There's a pretty huge gap between Tenebrous and Bane - certainly much larger than the one between Plagueis and Tenebrous.

For that reason, Tenebrous has to be way out of Dooku's league with the Force. Putting them in a similar tier is absolutely shameful.

No it doesn't. Tenebrous doesn't need to have to snap Bane's neck for the scaling to work. Plagueis couldn't even do that. Hell, Palpatine can't either.

I'm exaggerating, but you get my point. Also, I said putting Tenebrous below Vader means that Vader can do X, not that Tenebrous could.

And that logic means that Vader can ragdoll Bane at the very least.

No, it doesn't.

Tenebrous couldn't rag-doll Bane either, kek's

Also, what is Tene's case for taking 'sabers?

So you're saying that every increase from Bane to Tenebrous is miniscule, then it becomes giant with Plagueis? lmfao

Originally posted by SunRazer
So you're saying that every increase from Bane to Tenebrous is miniscule, then it becomes giant with Plagueis? lmfao
Plagueis can't ragdoll / stomp Bane either.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Tenebrous couldn't rag-doll Bane either, kek's.

We can't say for sure, but Plagueis likely could. And someone above Tenebrous would be able to, as well.

Don't "kek" at me. Putting Dooku anywhere near someone who is the beneficiary of nine centuries of improvements since Darth Bane is kekworthy.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Plagueis can't ragdoll / stomp Bane either.

Then that's where we disagree. I think Plagueis could stomp Bane.

Is that why Plagueis praises Bane's power in the novel, Palpatine considers Bane among his most power ancestors, and Bane was represented as the embodiment of the ancient Sith Lords before Yoda on Korriban? mmm

If Bane was vastly inferior, Palpatine and Plagueis would look down upon him as a time when the Sith were weak. Instead, they consistently praise his power, which is even uncharacteristic of Palpatine to do so.

EDIT: before Ant's recent post

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Plagueis can't ragdoll / stomp Bane either.

Ant, just making assertions on face doesn't constitute a valid argument. If we have thirty generations of confirmed power creep, and we know that in many of these cases the apprentice defeats the master in personal combat, usually before their own primes, and that this increase happens all the time - meaning that it has to be due to factors with a margin of error small relative to their effect - it becomes more likely than not that Sidious is ludicriously stronger than Bane. Otherwise it would be pretty silly for the sith to hide for a thousand years to get someone just marginally more powerful, whose master's master wasn't even above Dooku.

This isn't definitive proof, but it's better than what you have, .ie your baseless opinion.

@Ant - You can praise somebody's power and still stomp them. Plagueis praised Maul's martial ability as well, but he'd stomp him all the same.

They mostly praise Bane's strength of character/philosophy in that he chose to get rid of a weak Order and re-establish a more powerful one. They don't know for sure how powerful Bane actually was in life, only that they're better

Originally posted by SunRazer
We can't say for sure, but Plagueis likely could. And someone above Tenebrous would be able to, as well.
Given that Plagueis is above Tenebrous by a great degree, the wiggle room between the two doesn't make it a ultimatum to wreck Bane to be above above Tenebrous.



Saying Tenebrous > Revan is more kek worthy, IMO.

@Deronn_Solo - I don't know where you have Revan, but somebody who is nine centuries and thirty or so power growths above Bane being above Revan isn't hard to swallow... at all. On the other hand, Dooku being above Bane is already suspect, let alone around somebody with thirty power growths over Bane. You can't possibly argue that the former is the more laughable case.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Is that why Plagueis praises Bane's power in the novel, Palpatine considers Bane among his most power ancestors,

Vader considers Palpatine to be the most powerful sith lord who had ever existed (Death Star novel), as did the ancient sith spirits (Empire's End) and that historian (New Essential Chronology) consulted to make a definitive statement without hesitation], so thanks for setting us that precedent.

BTW, Plagueis also considers himself to be the most powerful sith who had ever lived.



He's incredibly important to the sith, yeah.



Military academies study and praise the Roman legions. Complete this analogy, Ant.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
as did the ancient sith spirits (Empire's End)
Quote?

I know it exists, but I'd have to look for it.

There's also his needing every deceased Jedi in history to trap him in Chaos.

Ell, you can't bring that up. As per LeGenD, that's just something that Brand said to reassure Luke - there's no way of proving that it actually happened.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I know it exists, but I'd have to look for it.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it doesn't. But it just so happens that I'm going to be re-reading through Dark Empire on my plane to Hawaii tonight, so we'll see.

When Sidious comes back in Empire's End.

Pretty sure they just make fun of him and his struggles. And since the author allegedly doesn't think Sidious was the most powerful Sith in history... I doubt I'll be finding any of that sort of hype in E.E.

Revan wins but Tenebrous is pretty underrated. It's not a stomp by any means

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I know it exists, but I'd have to look for it.
Kulvax 2.0?

Originally posted by SunRazer
Vader must mean that Vader could snap Bane's neck with a gesture

Vader has the feats to suggest he could

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Kulvax 2.0?

Hn, there's a difference between misremembering and being AP.

Who said he misremembered?

Originally posted by SunRazer
Actually, in a number of the areas that Tenebrous has shown feats in, they're better than Revan's.

Uh, what? No they aren't?