Darth Krayt vs. Darth Plagueis

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Rebel95
1. Sabers
2. Force
3. All out

chingchangwalla
Vong Krayt?

AncientPower
Reborn Krayt wins, any less and Plagueis takes it.

Deronn_solo
Plagueis, clean sweep.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Plagueis, clean sweep.

Syndicate
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Plagueis, clean sweep.

SunRazer
Plagueis beats Reborn Krayt as well, but in an excellent fight.

Ziggystardust
Originally posted by SunRazer
Plagueis beats Reborn Krayt as well, but in an excellent fight.

An sparring time? This may come as huge a surprise, but I doubt Plagueis has this, or anything for that matter.

1) His natural skills as a physical-beast are high, but there is no world in where he's more skilled than Krayt. Who before one-hundred years and one-thousand notch counts, had already given Kenobi a fight to remember

2) While clad in vong-spores, Krayt killed the Force-resistant Zealots with lightning. The Implants that plagued him were not just known to dull ones Force connection, but diminish their latent ability completely. That certainly beats Hego's non-feat of killing random assailants in a shit condition.

2) He's the dark counterpart of Luke when balanced on the throne of something-or-other, as of Fate of the Jedi. While Hego's ridiculously false self-praise can be discarded for sith lords who came after. If the nofeats.txt law applies, then holistically speaking, Krayt still has this.

Nephthys
Krayt
Plagueis, unless Krayt can use Dark Transfer
Maybe Krayt

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
1) His natural skills as a physical-beast are high, but there is no world in where he's more skilled than Krayt. Who before one-hundred years and one-thousand notch counts, had already given Kenobi a fight to rememberWhen by his own omission he was past his physical peak, out of practice and against an opponent far more experienced in fighting on desert terrain? Aside from the fact that Plagueis would blitz in that situation, I'm not seeing what it has on defeating a late-generation Banite Sith Lord, who was an ambidextrous master of multiple forms made expert in Plagueis' fighting style. And that was over 30 years before his prime, where he experienced an artificial increment to his power.

And Plagueis possessing the equivalent of a 1,000 years of advancement in Sith combat techniques (if Sidious' abilities are anything to go by including seven styles mastery, ambidextrous dueling ability and various exotic martial skills) > 100 years or so combat experience against opponents of unknown prowess; that doesn't even top Scourge.I'm not seeing how. First of all though resistant to most Force attacks, the Vong appear to be in general vulnerable to Force lightning, and it stands to reason that generating a lethal electrical current would be enough to kill one.

And seeing as with a "trickle" of lightning Plagueis almost set an Ikotichi priestess aflame, bringing her blood to a literal boil. And with a "tangle" of lightning seemingly reduced a man's bones to dust, I'd say he'd manage that with culpable ease. Especially when both feats are again over 30 years before his prime.

Yeah Krayt is way out of his league here.*3, learn numbers. smile

Holistically speaking Plagueis was the penultimate Sith in the Rule of Two, who have been steadily growing more powerful with each generation since Bane (who is ashing people and creatures with his lightning, and reducing squads of soldiers to pulp with his TK), alongside Sidious caused unprecedented imbalance in the Force, and was regarded by Luceno as capable of defeating Sheev in lightsaber combat. He manages. Regardless seeing as feats are actually a valid means of assessing ability that's largely irrelevant, Plagueis wins.

Syndicate
An Beni timing. smile

Beniboybling
https://media.giphy.com/media/QmeB1Hr5fz7a0/giphy.gif

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
You don't deserve her magnificence.

NOBODY DOES

Syndicate
https://media.giphy.com/media/GY6FiWdFfRiX6/giphy.gif

cs_zoltan
She's black. Nobody needs her.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
You shut the **** up and get back in your goddamn cage.

Syndicate
Zoltan gets it.

Beniboybling
lmao

The Ellimist
Beni is black????!!

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
You didn't know that? Y'know, Beni, Benigga....

Syndicate
Wait... They're a nigg? Fuc. I was starting to like him.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Shut the **** up. I actually worship nuggers.

Syndicate
That was pretty obvious from the way you rode Freshest's cock.

cs_zoltan
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Shut the **** up. I actually worship nuggers.

It's ok, Egyptians worshipped cats too. But let's not pretend ****ing a nugger is not beastality.

Beniboybling
This thread... maybe back on topic? Clue: Plagueis wins.

cs_zoltan
Plagueis is an animal too, hence inferior.

Syndicate
Da nugger's got a point.

Beniboybling
uhuh

Selenial
Originally posted by Syndicate
That was pretty obvious from the way you rode Freshest's cock.

lmfao thumb up

are those two even indistinguishable anymore?

Selenial
Krayt wins sabers and all out, loses force barely.

Beniboybling
Lol naw

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Originally posted by Selenial
lmfao thumb up

are those two even indistinguishable anymore?

It was a mutual merging. Pretty beautiful. But it also applies to other nuggers, like DC.

And why are you such a dick to me these days smile

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Lol naw

I'm starting to lean Plagueis in this fight.

Beniboybling
I don't see Krayt having anything over him tbfh.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Yeah. Plagueis's handling of Venamis waaaaay before his prime, and his absolutely insane physicals, are more than enough to match or exceed Krayt in that regard.

Beniboybling
Yeah I think when you realise that most of Plagueis feats were either done 1. without him really trying 2. when he was properly ****ed up 3. many many decades before his prime, or all of the above, yet still compare to the top tiers, then you realise understand how frikken powerful he is.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
His Maladian feat was even done before he became, "far more powerful," via MM, something I didn't know about till recently. No wonder Sidious thinks he's a match for the likes of Yoda. smile

Beniboybling
+20 years before his prime/death. smile

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Also, when does Sidious say they're both a match for any individual in the order? Before or after Plagueis became far more powerful? smile

Trocity
Either way, we know from Yoda disarming and then essentially stalemating ROTS Sidious in the Force in their fight that that statement is false at the time it was made.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Not at all.

Trocity
oh

Emperordmb
Plagueis all three

Keep fighting the good fight Beni smile

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Plagueis is Yoda tier duelist, time to accept it smile

Selenial
That's some top class retarded logic smile

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
And why are you such a dick to me these days smile

And there's only one Sith Lord above Plagueis, sorry. smile

Selenial
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

And why are you such a dick to me these days smile

I've always been an ****. It just used to be directed at Aurbere smile

I need a new punching bag smile smile smile

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Did you ****ing kill Aurbere or some shit smile

Direct your punches toward your son ant, or your love interest Beni smile

Emperordmb
What happened to Aurbaderp btw? Does anyone know? I feel like Fated accidentally crushed him under his girth, or Sel killed him, or he an heroed, or Nem Bees slaughtered him.

Selenial
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
or your love interest Beni smile

You just sealed your fate smile smile smile

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I'm sorry I'm sorry smilesmilesmile

Direct your punches towards your son ant, or your love interest Bart smilesmilesmile

Selenial
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
or your love interest Bart smilesmilesmile

He'd enjoy it too much smile smile smile

The fugg is the point in that smile

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Why? Because you'd give him
Paine
Agony
Despiur

smilesmilesmile

Nephthys
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
And there's only one Sith Lord above Plagueis, sorry. smile

Sidious
Nihilus
Valkorion
Kun
Krayt
Bane
Caedus
Taalon

Hmm, yeah checks out. mmm

MythLord
> Above Plagueis
> Half the people on that list
> My flipping sides XD

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Sidious yes
Nihilus no
Valk isn't a Sith Lord
Kun not for a majority
Krayt not for a majority
Not Bane lmao
Not Caedus
**** Taalon

carthage
Originally posted by Nephthys
=
Bane


laughing

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Nephthys
Sidious
Nihilus
Valkorion
Kun
Krayt
Bane
Caedus
Taalon

Hmm, yeah checks out. mmm LMAO

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
IKR HE SAID SIDIOUS BEATS PLAGUEIS

Nephthys
I don't necessarily have all of them above Plagueis, but all of them are arguable in some capacity. Except Valkorion, that was my bad on mis-labelling him.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't necessarily have all of them above Plagueis, but all of them are arguable in some capacity. Except Valkorion, that was my bad on mis-labelling him. Lmao, Plagueis is 1,000 years above Bane. He doesn't compare in any capacity.Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
And there's only one Sith Lord above Plagueis, sorry. smile And it isn't Vitiate. smile

carthage
It takes a large amount of brain damage to put Bane anywhere near Plagueis. Oh well its Neph so its not very surprising

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Lmao, Plagueis is 1,000 years above Bane. He doesn't compare in any capacity.And it isn't Vitiate. smile

Vitiate ain't an Sith. If you consider him such, then Plagueis is third. SIMPLE. MULTIPLICATION. smile

Beniboybling
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Also, when does Sidious say they're both a match for any individual in the order? Before or after Plagueis became far more powerful? smile Anyway looked into this and it happens before, quite a bit before actually. In 52 BBY in fact.

I can't help by question Sheev's accuracy therefore as 30 years later Sidious is struggling against Yoda. I also think given that in that fight Sidious goes from being confident in his superiority to attempting to flee as an indicator he underestimated him.

On the other hand, Yoda's spiritual journey might have made him stronger. mmmOriginally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Vitiate ain't an Sith. If you consider him such, then Plagueis is third. SIMPLE. MULTIPLICATION. smile Plagueis thinks otherwise, I believe him. smile

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
NO smilesmilesmile

Plagueis ~ Yoda

Valk > both

smilesmilesmile

Beniboybling
Valkorion >= Yoda > Plagueis > Vitiate smile thumb up

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I don't understand, my sweet niglet pie smile

Nephthys
Valkorion and Vitiate are the same person.

Beniboybling
Lawsl. Well that depends on whether you think Valkorion = Vitiate, personally I believe post-Ziost he got a lot stronger (and also underwent a dramatic shift in focus and personality).

So I treat them as separate entities. smile

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Ziost only "revitalized," him tho Beni. smile

Beniboybling
Not the impression I got from this speech:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKqOqQ-xiqo&t=6m45s

no

Nephthys
That doesn't indicate anything about power, merely his state of being and perspectives.

Beniboybling
erm Lol.

Beniboybling
He achieved this state of being by consuming a planet friend, which could only give him one thing. Power.

He states he no longer needs vessels, and has become liberated and immortal, you can't achieve that by changing your philosophical perspective lol. You have to become sufficiently powerful.

Honestly it's being made pretty obvious here that Valkorion has achieved a level of power that has given him both new abilities and a new perspective on the universe, and that's reflected in his much improved feats.

So yeah his state of being has changed, in the Force lmao.

Ziggystardust
Originally posted by Beniboybling
When by his own omission he was past his physical peak, out of practice and against an opponent far more experienced

The circumstances in this case do somewhat lessen the accomplishment, but they don't even begin to refute what actually took place. That being said, Kenobi's feats against Grevious, the Nightbrothers and Anakin speak for themselves. How much two years could have done to mitigate those performances can be cast aside. The Force makes up the difference. As seen when Revan is freed from 4 years torture or when Maul is restored from a decades reclusion. Unless Kenobi is suffering from some sever motor-neuron disease, the difference could well be negligible.



The fact that Krayt is so comfortable in a harsh environment only makes him all the more special. World class runners in Kenya tend to train on high mountains where Oxygen is thinner, they do this as children. In practice, they become more effective runners for any environment, because their heart, lungs, and muscles can more effectively use oxygen. The same can only logically apply to Krayt, unless what... you think he somehow gets a boon fighting in extreme temperatures with no moisture and high air-pressure? No son. He's more use to the desert than Kenobi, which insinuates superior physicality. This is an advantage he carries in any fight.



Blitz who? Hett? Laughable. Kenobi? Even more laughable. Plagueis has only been seen in one lightsaber battle and there certainly was no "blitzing" involved. I hope you can justify such a gap in speed, because it's not happening otherwise.



And you assume this means Venamis is a more talented lightsaber master than Kenobi? I'm going to refute the assumptions of this logic before you take it beyond it's limits. There is no reason for Venamis to be better than Kenobi, Bane or anyone in particular. It is illogical to assume his raw power is stronger than their's, as to assume he's received anything other than rudimentary dark-side knowledge, or training outside of one specific task - killing Plagueis. Technically, he can not be a 'rule-of-two' sith, because his very existence breaks the formula of two, making him just someone who might have joined the ranks... but didn't. He was killed before reaching the status of "a late-generation Banite Sith Lord" and of course, Plagueis didn't see him fit as an apprentice either. There is no possible way to scale Venamis without making the worst case of circular logic that has ever existed on these boards. And if you want him to be better than Kenobi, you have to prove that's the case.



Oh my! Multiple forms with both hands you say?! Kam Soulsar would be proud. But none of that is particularly relevant. Bare in mind, all of this made him the more 'technically skilled' fighter allowing him to clip Plagueis' shoulder. And he only lost to Plagueis because of the latter's powerful Force connection, As Kasim would saY going beyond forms. And we see that in the Novel, given the out-of-body experience Plagueis describes.



The transformation Krayt underwent was far more radical than anything Plagueis could have augmented himself with. And so far, contending with Kenobi as starting point, is better than beating a featless-something, who may or may not be stronger than Darth Bandon's sith Barbour (credit to Gideon).



Where is this one-thousand years advancement in martial arts? Do you actually think the knowledge inherited, possibly amended, would have such a large focus on sabers? Let me correct that mistaken notion. Both Plagueis and Palaptine view lightsbaer-combat with disdain. Sheev going as far as to call it "Jedi Dueling games" and only keeping it in reserve to "humiliate the Jedi", and it's pretty clear that they're not using 'exclusive' forms given Hego's observation Niman in Maul. Plagueis can not possibly hope to stand-up to someone who's at least matching him in raw-power, and has vastly more combat experience and time to refine his skills.



Cue Darth Venamis laughing out loud



Well I imagine they're vulnerable to Krayt's lighting, seen as they died from a single blast ;-) But if you've read New Jedi Order Traitor, you'll see some elaboration on the matter. Apparently, they are just as resistant to lightning. This is seen when Jacen couldn't channel sparked bolts through Vong-bodies, describing them as "poor conductors", yet Krayt can kill them outright - while having his Force connection diminished. In fact a few parallels can be made between Krayt and Jacen, all favoring the latter immensely. This is a feat war you will loose.



Do you even know what a metaphor is, Beni? Right here you have a linguistic expression that isn't representing the real state of affairs as it is described, which is made clear by the context.

" as a tangle of blue electricity that hissed from his tapered fingers, catching Wandau full-on and lifting him to the ceiling of the hold before dropping him to the puddled deck in a heap, as if his bones had turned to dust." - Taken from Darth Plagueis

Plagueis does not in fact reduce a man's bone to "dust", all he does is kill a person with lightning, and drop him in a heap, "as if his bones turned to dust. Which happens when you're manhandling a lifeless corpse. And more importantly, how can you disintegrate someones bones, but not their flesh, muscle and skin? So essentially, all Plagueis did was kill yet another, non Force sensitive being.



They are also 30 years too underwhelming, while comparing him to a diminished Vong-krayt, just over 100 years from his prime.



I find it the appeal 'holistic thinking' rather amusing while at the same time applying the 'feat wars' logic from Darth-Bane. That is fine of course, but here is the spanner - There is not a single reason why Hego should be better than his bygone predecessor in the most rudimentary categories - such as TK. The steady 'power increase' refers to a multitude of areas. Their knowledge of the Darkside being one, but so is their political and economic standing within the Galaxy. When Tenebrous was searching for a Sith apprentice ,he manipulated a powerful InterGalactic Bank agent named Caar Damask into meeting his future wife, knowing that if they had a child, their offspring would be strong in the Force. And of course, Sheev's ascension from an untarnished ambassador to supreme ruler of the Galaxy, does for-fill the 'power' scale prophesied by Bane.



Bring me this quote, it's date, it's source and then we will discuss the point further.

Unbowed
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Bring me this quote, it's date, it's source and then we will discuss the point further.
The Luceno quote is real, it's from an interview around the time the book was released. I believe the exact quote was along the lines of "they are pretty evenly matched but Plagueis would find some way to subvert his apprentice".

His feats in the Legacy:War already put him in the top tier but I've always thought the powerscaling he benefited from in FOTJ: Apocalypse makes him possibly the strongest Sith ever. He was depicted as Luke Skywalker's equal(if not outright superior) in their fight against Abeloth.

FOTJ is a book obsessed with balance and parallels.

Light and Dark
Jedi and Sith
Daughter and Son
Ben and Vestara
Luke and Krayt

All of these share a whole equal and opposite yin/yang thing.

And as you noted above, in Apocalypse Jacen is depicted as a sort of Sith-lite, and Krayt as the real deal. More powerful, darker, and with Abeloth gone, the imminent threat to the galaxy. There's also the whole Dark Man on the Throne of Balance thing, though I don't know what to make of that.

Ziggystardust
Originally posted by Unbowed
The Luceno quote is real, it's from an interview around the time the book was released. I believe the exact quote was along the lines of "they are pretty evenly matched but Plagueis would find some way to subvert his apprentice".

Beni. If this is the case, do you want to point out what part of this quote states he was capable of defeating Sheev in lightsaber combat? roll eyes (sarcastic)

So far I'm seeing a case based on lies, and the literal interpretation of metaphoric statements.

The Ellimist
Yoda > Valkorion = Plagueis > Vitiate, at least in the Force.

NewGuy01
For crying out loud, he doesn't say Plagueis is better than Palpatine in lightsaber combat.

Someone asked him what would happen if Palpatine confronted Plagueis traditionally, and Luceno said that Plagueis could probably find a way to undermine his apprentice had it come down to a duel. Duel, in this case, is not necessarily synonymous with "lightsaber fight".

Beniboybling
An bible timing. Anyway here is the quote and source:

Q: Do you feel that had it come to a contest of lightsabers or Force powers that Sidious would have prevailed anyway?

Luceno: If it had come to a duel, I think Plagueis may have found a way to undermine his apprentice.

http://www.eucantina.net/archives/11656

Duel referring to lightsaber combat, or at least something that involves it, and undermine implying victory, through whatever means. Therefore I'm pretty sure I'm being accurate in saying that Luceno thinks Plagueis could defeat Palpatine in lightsaber combat, though not necessarily because he is the better duelist.

Selenial
So you lied. smile

Beniboybling
Lol how

Selenial
Undermining someone in a Duel is not the same as defeating someone in Lightsaber combat.

Beniboybling
So you believe that Luceno didn't mean that Plagueis would win?

Selenial
Winning a duel is not the same as being a better duelist.

Beniboybling
No it's not, clever girl. Now point me to the part where I said Plagueis is a better duelist. erm

Selenial
You suggested Luceno's quote was entirely to do with Lightsaber Combat. It was not.

Beniboybling
Right, now I see what your saying. Well OK, but the point I was making is that Plagueis can contend with Sidious as a combatant, to the point of being able to potentially defeat him, not that he is a better duelist. So the argument stands.

Ziggystardust
Originally posted by Beniboybling
An bible timing. Anyway here is the quote and source:

Q: Do you feel that had it come to a contest of lightsabers or Force powers that Sidious would have prevailed anyway?

Luceno: If it had come to a duel, I think Plagueis may have found a way to undermine his apprentice.

http://www.eucantina.net/archives/11656

Duel referring to lightsaber combat, or at least something that involves it, and undermine implying victory, through whatever means. Therefore I'm pretty sure I'm being accurate in saying that Luceno thinks Plagueis could defeat Palpatine in lightsaber combat, though not necessarily because he is the better duelist.

You sorta did lie here, or rather that you misunderstood the implications of the word 'duel'. Now, had he made it specific to 'lightsaber duelling' there wouldn't be any dispute. But as it stands, the word 'duel' can both definitively and historically be used to describe an all-out fight between the two. Just as you can have a duel of Swords, you can have a duel of Force powers.

Lesson of the day - the rest of the world do not use the same abbreviations as us.

Beniboybling
Lying implies the intention to deceive, which I did not have.

Regardless you make a fair point regarding the wording, frankly though a holistic engagement is more beneficial to my case. So that's fine. smile

Ziggystardust
Originally posted by Beniboybling Regardless you make a fair point regarding the wording, frankly though a holistic engagement is more beneficial to my case. So that's fine. smile

I don't think so Beni, and it's not only an issue of misinterpretations in literature and what that does to affect one's credibility, but it's also a case of relevance. Luceno thinks that Plagueis could duke Sidious, but in what manner he does so is left for the reader to decide. Plagueis is probably more impressive when it comes to Force powers, while Sidious is left a bit undernourished in that area. But in the lightsaber department, Sheev has the upper-hand, having trained Maul while demonstrating a clear edge over the latter. At that point Hego was in 'monk-mode' developing his Midi-Chlorion machinations. So it would be even more impressive, and surprising if Luceno thought Plagueis could defeat his apprentice in a Lightsaber duel alone, rather than an all-out fight. Krayt is still more impressive than either.

Beniboybling
I'd say its pretty relevant friend, if Plagueis is capable of defeating Sidious in a duel through any means, he'd have to be capable of contending with him holistically. Which is much better feat than a vague comparison to Luke as far as combat effectiveness is concerned. thumb up

Beniboybling
Speaking of which, I'd like to see this quote. Make sure your not lying. smile

Selenial
*you're smile

cs_zoltan
Come on Sel, that's like Beni's trademark.

Beniboybling
yes

Ziggystardust
Originally posted by Beniboybling
I'd say its pretty relevant friend, if Plagueis is capable of defeating Sidious in a duel through any means, he'd have to be capable of contending with him holistically. Which is much better feat than a vague comparison to Luke as far as combat effectiveness is concerned. thumb up

Holistic analysis does not differentiate between innate power in the Force and combat effectiveness, Beni. 'Holistics' are simply concerned with wholes or complete systems rather than the analysis of, treatment of, or dissection into parts. That's why if an excerpt claims Sheev is the 'most powerful' sith lord in modern times, we can holistically determine a fight's outcome between him and his apprentices. For the same reason, we can assume that Apocalypse!Krayt can contend with or, at least bring harm to Luke, because he's Luke's Dark counterpart on the Throne of balance.

For Krayt and Plagueis, are you trying to tell me how possibly being able to defeat TPM!Sidious, is better than Krayt's comparison to Luke nearly a century from his prime? Luke as the 'realized' potential of his father or 'double' of what a more mature Sidious is? Quite clearly there is no holistic argument, no accolade, that will dig you out from this enormous caveat. You can forget about that.

So please continue telling me why killing random non-force sensitive assassins sways this in favour of Hego.

Beniboybling
That's nice dear, still waiting for the proof that Krayt compares to Luke.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
The circumstances in this case do somewhat lessen the accomplishment, but they don't even begin to refute what actually took place. That being said, Kenobi's feats against Grevious, the Nightbrothers and Anakin speak for themselves. How much two years could have done to mitigate those performances can be cast aside. The Force makes up the difference. As seen when Revan is freed from 4 years torture or when Maul is restored from a decades reclusion. Unless Kenobi is suffering from some sever motor-neuron disease, the difference could well be negligible.If it were negligible the novel would not have made note of it, but it did, so it wasn't.Right, except you forgot about the sand beneath their feat, a difficult terrain that again, Hett has much more experience fighting on (and using to his advantage as he does in the duel.) And last time I checked footwork is pretty fundamental to lightsaber combat, so yes, I'd say he got a boon. Whereas Kenobi on the other hand is inexperienced in the environment, and would have suffered under the effects of the harsh climate you so kindly detailed.

In fact that novel description makes it explicit as a cause for his difficulty:Yes Kenobi. Plagueis was again regarded by Luceno as capable of defeating and therefore contending with TPM Sidious in a duel, which suggests an appreciable if not equal level of speed if he is the contend let alone win, as was the case for example with Sidious' duel against Yoda. And seeing a little over a decade later Sidious would go on to blitz top Jedi Council members with a single blow, Plagueis should be capable of downing Kenobi pretty ****ing quickly. Hett isn't even worth mentioning.A more talented duelist? Highly unlikely. But holistically he would have proven a much more lethal combatant to Plagueis, and therefore would have demanded a much higher level of lightsaber talent to hold out against, to say nothing of forcing a stalemate and then overcoming.

Regardless, to address your concerns. smile

First of all, considering that Venamis expressed serious doubts as to the suitability of Plagueis as his apprentice, and instructed Venamis to eliminate him as an act that would confer him the "Darth" title (in fact Venamis was already looking for an apprentice of his own), I would say its quite obvious that Venamis was more than tool, and instead a legitimate contender to replace Plagueis as his successor. He would have therefore taken his training very seriously. And while no, we cannot assume that Venamis would have been instructed in Banite teachings outside of those relevant to beating Plagueis, that only makes such potential gaps in his knowledge irrelevant by default; both to his ability to challenge Plagueis as a combatant, and the discussion of combative prowess we are having.

On the other hand, the fact that Venamis was capable of concealing his dark side presence from Plagueis, whom consequently praises him as being "well trained"; the fact that he was a master of multiple forms which he could switch between effortlessly and ambidextrously; and the fact that he was able to perform Force flight in-situ to combat Plagueis while hovering in mid air, demonstrates his training in that regard was anything but rudimentary.

Instead we should assume it was highly advanced; and if Tenebrous intended for Venamis to succeed in this task, full use of what the Banite line had to offer in that regard (that's 1,000 years of intensive advancement in the Force and lightsaber arts) would have put to use, imparted to Venamis by one of Bane's most experienced and powerful successors. We can also assume that Venamis was trained at the hands of Tenebrous for potentially decades, given this is the time around which Plagueis notes they'd reached an impasse, prompting Tenebrous to explore different options from a pool of candidates he was on constant look out for:Which to put in perspective is comparable to the amount of time Sidious took to complete Maul's own studies.

So yes, considering the millenium's worth of generations between Bane and Tenebrous, Venamis possessing both the potential and the training (as far as it applied to combat) to take up a legitimate position in the Banite line should make him in overall combative talent at least appreciable, if not better than the Rule of Two's 1st generation of Lords. More than Kenobi can claim. Saddle such an individual up with rigorous expertise in your opponents form (as opposed to a terrain disadvantage) then yes, you have Plagueis defeating a far deadlier opponent than the one Hett faced in Obi-Wan, many decades before his eventual prime.
Combat versatility is not particularly relevant to combat you say? Who knew.

Moving on, I'd disagree with that assessment. First of all though Tenebrous did indeed manage to penetrate the Plagueis' defenses, Hego nonetheless manages to force a stalemate, to the point at which he observes that "the fight could go on indefinitely" - but by your logic Plagueis should have been at the very least on the back foot throughout, and yet he was not. The more likely explanation for Venamis penetrating his defenses therefore was that he was caught off-guard by his opponents offensive style, indeed as Plagueis describes it, it was "unexpected."

Secondly I'm not seeing on what basis you've concluded he beat him by abusing his Force power, rather than through saber mastery. If that had been the case we'd expect, much it happened in Bane's duel against Kas'im, Venamis to be rapidly driven back by an overpowering offense. And yet that is not what happens, rather Plagueis goes on the defensive, his 'out-of-body experience' were he works himself "like a marionette" merely being, from my perspective, a description of Plagueis extricating himself from the immediacy of the fight, and approaching it from a more removed, calculating perspective. In which he calculates Venamis' defeat. smile

The way he seemingly with ease parries Venamis' every lunge and strike, an undeniable testament to his adroit talent as a duelist as much as his ability in the Force.

Beniboybling
Not when that "featless-something" was in fact a far more lethal opponent to Plagueis than Kenobi was to Hett, which (more than) makes up for Krayt's greater growth.

The key difference being that while Hett was beaten, the reverse was true for Plagueis, who soundly defeated him opponent.
First of all note the names you're listing here friend i.e. the final generation of the Rule of Two. Bane and Zannah on the other hand, the first generation who would set the trend for the ensuing centuries, valued lightsaber combat quite highly. Heck even Tenebrous held it in high esteem. So you've no basis to assume this mindset was true of the Rule of Two in its entirety.

More importantly however you are assuming that disdain led to negligence, whereas there is no evidence that this is the case. On the contrary, in the same sentence that Plagueis is noted to regard lightsaber combat with disdain, he is proclaimed a "master of the art." And Sidious' haughty regard for "Jedi duelling games" didn't stop him from producing of the most highly skilled and effectively trained Sith in history, to which he imparted numerous "exotic and forbidden martial arts", all of which he must have himself being expert in; himself mastering all seven forms of lightsaber combat and going on to contend with two of the greatest swordsmasters the Jedi Order ever produced.

It being stated in the RotS novelisation that, as I've previously referenced:Jedi lore that would certainly include their prized "duelling games", several of which Sidious had to again involve himself in to execute the Grand Plan.

Altogether the case for them neglecting to advance their skills in this field because they were somehow unimportant is weak one, and if anything their haughty attitude suggests confidence, indeed in their ability to "humiliate" the Jedi if it ever came down to it.I'll take this as an admission that there is no proof of their talent. So what reasoning do you have that this amounts to more saber skill than Plagueis possesses? Why should it make him any better as a duelist than Scourge, if even his equal?
Yes I looked into that, however that's not quite what happens, rather Jacen finds himself unable to strike them with his Force lightning at all because it "could only span gaps between poles of the Force...neither Nom Anor nor his warriors could conduct that current."

So it's not actually proof that Vong are naturally resistant to Force lightning, if struck by it, only that it's difficult to strike them in the first place. And whether it be because, due to his inexperience, Jacen was simply inept, or simply because others authors had no interest in following this little rule, the Vong are frequently struck and killed by lightning in other sources.

Jaina Solo for example takes out Vong with her lightning on three seperate occasionsAnd all these feats were accomplished in 27 ABY, when she was only 18. confused

So yes, I think that again someone who rivals Darth Sidious in dark side power, who could boil blood and gloop insides with a mere fraction of his strength, and who is far greater than someone who can ash beings with his lightning, would dispatch a few Vong with culpable ease. thumb upAnd do you understand the definition of "seeming"?

I am paraphrasing what the passage said, that Plagueis "appeared" to reduced a man's bones to dust. Evidently this was not what happened, however seeing as a corpse is merely limp and not boneless I'm inclined to believe he did more than just kill him, and rather (especially considering what a mere trickle did to the Ikotichi) left his insides rather jellied.

But of course, you appear to have omitted to address the feat were he almost sets alight that poor woman.Which a pre-prime Plagueis should have zero difficulty in replicating, so who really cares? I'd warrant that even Bane could accomplish that feat. And Plagueis has 1,000 years on him. winkAh, the classic "political power" argument. Never gets old does it?

Unfortunately that tactic doesn't quite function when the source material explicitly refers to power in the Forcemessedo no I'm afraid, we can absolutely assume Plagueis to be an order of magnitude more powerful than Bane. thumb up

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