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1. Sabers

2. Force

3. All-Out

Who takes this?

Windu brings the broom.

Windu in all three

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Windu in all three

Either way.
Windu.
Windu.

Kenobi wins sabers, Windu takes the rest

Since when is Kenobi a better, or equal, duelist with Mace Windu?

Feats, accolades, and narrative, makes it pretty clear Windu > Kenobi in sabers.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Since when is Kenobi a better, or equal, duelist with Mace Windu?

Feats, accolades, and narrative, makes it pretty clear Windu > Kenobi in sabers.

Obi-Wan is bar-none the greatest Soresu practitioner in History, imo.

It puts him right up there with Mace.

.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
. If thats a picture, I can't see it.

If its a dot then... Well, ok.

Yeah well Mace invented Gaypad. That counts for something

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Yeah well Mace invented Gaypad. That counts for something Of course it does.

...But not against Kenobi.

So much cancer.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Obi-Wan is bar-none the greatest Soresu practitioner in History, imo.

It puts him right up there with Mace.

Using this logic; shouldn't Kenobi be just as good as Sidious and Yoda too? Why just stop at at Mace? If being the supposed "G.O.A.T." of a style that not many great duelist exclusively specialize in, ranks you that high 'cause reasons, the sky's the limit!


Let's look at some facts:
- Mace has, on numerous occasions, been placed on near equal footing with Yoda as a duelist.
- Nick Gillard, stunt director for Lucasfilm, placed Mace Windu's lightsaber adroitness at tier 9 --- along with familiar faces: Sidious, Yoda, and Anakin. Obi-Wan however, was placed a full tier below that, at 8.

Once the above is added to the fact that Mace's lightsaber feats are simply just better, I don't see how one can claim Obi-Wan is winning, or splitting a duel with Windu.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
So much cancer.

You think Vaapad is valid against Kenobi?

Someone who isn't of the Dark Side?

Thats literally Vaapad's function.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Using this logic; shouldn't Kenobi be just as good as Sidious and Yoda too? Why just stop at at Mace? If being the supposed "G.O.A.T." of a style that not many great duelist exclusively specialize in, ranks you that high 'cause reasons, the sky's the limit!


Let's look at some facts:
- Mace has, on numerous occasions, been placed on near equal footing with Yoda as a duelist.
- Nick Gillard, stunt director for Lucasfilm, placed Mace Windu's lightsaber adroitness at tier 9 --- along with familiar faces: Sidious, Yoda, and Anakin. Obi-Wan however, was placed a full tier below that at an 8.

Add that to the fact that, Mace's lightsaber feats are simply just better, then I don't see how one can see Obi-Wan winning any majority. Thats true, but you forget most of his showings are using Vaapad in some form against other Force Users, because those other Force Users are usually practitioners of the Dark Side.

I think the only time we see him fight a light sider is in a sparring match with Saesee Tiin, with neither surpassing the other. Not to see that Mace is below Tiin, of course not , but if thats his only showing against a light sider, when what he's known for is using Vaapad against Dark Siders, well...

Vaapaad won't work on Kenobi; Soresu would easily counter Maces hard style, id give a saber only fight to Obi Wan, ...all out and Force Mace takes it

Originally posted by Jmanghan
You think Vaapad is valid against Kenobi?

Someone who isn't of the Dark Side?

Thats literally Vaapad's function.

NO. IT'S NOT, MATE.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
NO. IT'S NOT, MATE.

"Allowing the users to channel their inner darkness, and feed off the fury of their opponent."

Since Jedi rarely fight off anger, which translates to fury/being furious, its nearly useless against them.

Unless Windu gets Kenobi pissed off with something (should probably bring up Qui-Gon), then Kenobi is going to give Windu a really hard time.

I haven't bothered to verify wherever that quote came from, but I sincerely hope it's not a quote from the wiki.

the Vaapaad being able to feed off of darksiders is the whole lynchpin of the pro Mace wankers saying that he beat Sidious fair and square...The form only amps Mace when he's got dark side to feed off of; its useless against Obi Wan

Kek, Vaapad is not useless against lightsiders. The superconducting loop aside it's still an improved version of Juyo.

On Topic: While Mace is indeed better than Kenobi, that doesn't mean he is guaranteed to win in sabers only. I think Mace's Vaapad is a favourable matchup to Kenobi's skillset.

Mace is also still able to channel his inner darkness...

Mace stomps tbh.

Windu.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Since when is Kenobi a better, or equal, duelist with Mace Windu?

Feats, accolades, and narrative, makes it pretty clear Windu > Kenobi in sabers.
Yeah, Mace is a better duelist. But in this scenario, Mace's vaapad wouldn't give him an amp like it did against Sidious, and Kenobi's mastery of soresu would counter Windu's aggressive fighting style. Obviously Windu takes force and all out though.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Windu brings the broom.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Since when is Kenobi a better, or equal, duelist with Mace Windu?

Feats, accolades, and narrative, makes it pretty clear Windu > Kenobi in sabers.

Based off their relative performances against Grievous.

Mace's age catches up with him in sabers. He makes a sloppy mistake and Kenobi goes for the kill.

Such cancer from the Kenobi camp.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Such cancer from the Kenobi camp.
Mace is an old ass man who relies on a form with very wide arcs and power attacks. Kenobi can hold-off Mace long enough like he did against Anakin until the older man gets tired and begins to overextend, slip, get sloppy, whatever etc. Both have flawless form so it comes down to form vs form. Vaapad is meant for use against dark siders; obviously this doesn't apply to Kenobi; otherwise it's just plain Juyo which Kenobi's Soresu is optimized for.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Such cancer from the Kenobi camp.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo

no rebuttal?

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Such cancer from the Kenobi camp.

.

Oh, I plan to tackle all your arguments tomorrow. Too sleepy to post any more than 2-3 sentences right now. So, I I'm only gonna troll and talk shit right now.

People trapped in 2012, seriously. Maybe the calendar really did end there for some people?

Are people still taking the Mace VS Grievous duel seriously? LOL, it was a very small sequence of moves(even the RotS novel notes that) and Grievous was overpowering Kenobi in slightly more time than that, so the comparison is extremely flawed.

Windu may yet live. If Disney does decide to bring him back I am going to use this to stab at the weak heart of the Palpatine camp.

Originally posted by MythLord
Are people still taking the Mace VS Grievous duel seriously? LOL, it was a very small sequence of moves(even the RotS novel notes that) and Grievous was overpowering Kenobi in slightly more time than that, so the comparison is extremely flawed.

It calls the fight between the two an exchange in the RotS novel. Not a small sequence of moves.

A single exchange, i.e. a small sequence of moves... that lasts about as long as it takes a hypersonic Jedi to leap around two MagnaGuards, so evidently a couple of seconds at best.

Nowhere does it say a small sequence of moves. That's your own nomenclature. The novel notes that Mace and Grievous had an exchange that lasted an indeterminate period, one we know lasted as long as it took Fisto and his magna guard opponents to fight their way across one end of the maglev to the other.

And no it wasn't a leap. Fisto started off at the end of the maglev Grievous and the magnaguards disembarked off of and then the fight progressed to the other end. Hardly a simple leap.

Originally posted by MythLord
hypersonic Jedi

I know you dig the exaggerations Myth, but serial bro, where do you pull these labels from?

Originally posted by Rebel95
Yeah, Mace is a better duelist. But in this scenario, Mace's vaapad wouldn't give him an amp like it did against Sidious, and Kenobi's mastery of soresu would counter Windu's aggressive fighting style. Obviously Windu takes force and all out though.

Aside from Vaapad being a much improved version of Juyo and something Kenobi never faced before, it also helps Mace channel his inner darkness and unleash it against Kenobi. As opposed to what some here think, Vaapad does not work its magic against dark siders only. He also has Shatterpoint, btw. Mace's skill set is way more impressive than Kenobi's.

Either way, Mace has better feats, better accolades and is simply described as an overall better duelist than Kenobi. You seriously see Yoda telling Mace 'to fight this Lord Sidious, strong enough you are not'?

It's honestly very clear-cut that Mace and Yoda are the top dogs of the PT and a whole tier above anyone else.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
I know you dig the exaggerations Myth, but serial bro, where do you pull these labels from?

Hey, if I digged the exaggerations I'd say Mace Windu moves in nanoseconds, lol. Anyways, primitive weapons in Star Wars like slugthrowers are noted as being hypersonic, a blaster and a slugthrower fired in damn-near immediately the same time moved in similar speeds, Jedi deflect blaster bolts on a daily basis, etc. And before you say precog, an expert Jedi Killer like HK-47 has noted that anything improvised and random(like someone shooting randomly in the span of a second) is a perfect counter to precognition. Also Jango dodged the blasters with his back turned and Kenobi is at least fast as him by AotC, and Fisto is faster

Originally posted by MythLord
Hey, if I digged the exaggerations I'd say Mace Windu moves in nanoseconds

I'm pretty sure you do that anyway.



But Precog is the correct answer. If you can dodge a bullet before it's even fired, because you can predict when it will be fired, that hardly counts as superior movement speed now, does it? If that were the case, there wouldn't be a long list of people who can challenge Jedi/Sith outside those ranks, and Grevious' 20 strikes per second wouldn't be such a major threat to the order.



I assume that's how he kills Jedi, as you already noted?



The most logical explanation is that Jango anticipated the blaster fire, and his opponents simply missed the target.

Getting Ziggy with it.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
I'm pretty sure you do that anyway.

Nah. That'd make Mace 30xLight.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
But Precog is the correct answer. If you can dodge a bullet before it's even fired, because you can predict when it will be fired, that hardly counts as superior movement speed now, does it? If that were the case, there wouldn't be a long list of people who can challenge Jedi/Sith outside those ranks, and Grevious' 20 strikes per second wouldn't be such a major threat to the order.

And precog fails against impuslive and random acts, like firing a laser at a person rapidly. Also, there's simply times where even precog can't help a Force sensitive deflect every single shot. Think Kenobi deflecting omnidirectional blaster fire. Each blaster bolt came immediately after another, so despite even precog, Obi would need to move his hands in similar speeds to deflect all of it. As per GG's 20-strikes-per-second, it was more than that IIRC and it was from Obi-Wan's point of view as to how fast Grievous was striking. I mean, a measly 20-strikes-per-second is peak human, and Pablo Higaldo and Leland Chee confirm all Jedi are superhuman+.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
I assume that's how he kills Jedi, as you already noted?

I assume it is how he kills them, yes.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
The most logical explanation is that Jango anticipated the blaster fire, and his opponents simply missed the target.

Actually, Jango didn't even see the shooters and his opponents would've hit their mark had he not ducked quickly. So yeah... Besides, marking top-tier Jedi as hypersonic is being awfly conservative when you have sources saying blaster bolts are lightspeed and Jedi move in nanoseconds

Originally posted by quanchi112
Getting Ziggy with it.

Originally posted by MythLord
Nah. That'd make Mace 30xLight.

Oh really, I suppose you weren't the one claiming Maul and Fisto were faster than light. That must have been someone else.



Pre-cognition might have failed for the Jedi HK47 hunted, but Kenobi's defence was revered as the numero-uno of it's time. Something the impulsive and random swordplay of grievous couldn't penetrate. It's hardly fair to compare him with the Jedi remnants from the Mandalorian wars, I mean, did it ever occur to you that Kenobi might be better than them, or that tarring all Force-users with the same brush is a little silly? However, unless you can find me evidence of Kenobi 'outpacing' a blaster bolt - that is - running as fast as one from the same starting point, then theres is no reason to believe he can move at a similar speed. When it comes to deflecting multiple blasters, his pre-cog does't magically disappear. He can still predict what's going to come at him and in what direction, he simply has to match his assailants rate of fire. Which isn't the same as being 'hypersonic'.



Firstly, it certainly was 20 strikes per second, and that was when Grevious "ramped up" the efficiency. Secondly, the narrative focalisation isn't just limited to Kenobi in this scene, and it does extend to all thoughts and all knowledge of all characters in the story. In spite of this, there is no reason to doubt Kenobi's judgement, especially on the basis of cherry picking the feats you don't like, and keeping the ones you do.



Jango doesn't need to see the shooters to know they're there. He anticipated their arrival and made his escape, causing his assailants to miss target. I'm not sure what you're trying to prove here? Although, I'm not surprised that you think the already misleading title of 'hypersonic Jedi' is conservative. Given your attempts to claim magnagaurd-killers are vastly faster than light, and your willingness to ignore almost every credible dictionary's definition of Nanosecond, and how it's used in literature.

Well he is the lord of myths.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Oh really, I suppose you weren't the one claiming Maul and Fisto were faster than light. That must have been someone else.

That was during my mass trolling of forums, lol. Besides, I was doing it to get on DarkDefender's nerves.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Pre-cognition might have failed for the Jedi HK47 hunted, but Kenobi's defence was revered as the numero-uno of it's time. Something the impulsive and random swordplay of grievous couldn't penetrate. It's hardly fair to compare him with the Jedi remnants from the Mandalorian wars, I mean, did it ever occur to you that Kenobi might be better than them, or that tarring all Force-users with the same brush is a little silly? However, unless you can find me evidence of Kenobi 'outpacing' a blaster bolt - that is - running as fast as one from the same starting point, then theres is no reason to believe he can move at a similar speed. When it comes to deflecting multiple blasters, his pre-cog does't magically disappear. He can still predict what's going to come at him and in what direction, he simply has to match his assailants rate of fire. Which isn't the same as being 'hypersonic'.

Kenobi was being overwhelmed by Grievous' implusive and randomized attacks, though, and needed to shift his tactics to parrying his hand rather than his lightsabers for him to gain an advantage. So HK's statement is valid and I don't see why Kenobi, just because he has an incredible defense, would be an exception to the rule of "implusive and random counters precognition". And like I said: Kenobi was deflecting omnidirectional blaster fire, even accounting for precognition each shot would've been only miliseconds apart from the other, so Obi-Wan would've still needed to wave his hands fast enough to intercept all of them. And the speed needed to intercept all of them is, in fact, hypersonic.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Firstly, it certainly was 20 strikes per second, and that was when Grevious "ramped up" the efficiency. Secondly, the narrative focalisation isn't just limited to Kenobi in this scene, and it does extend to all thoughts and all knowledge of all characters in the story. In spite of this, there is no reason to doubt Kenobi's judgement, especially on the basis of cherry picking the feats you don't like, and keeping the ones you do.

Firstly, him "ramping up" the efficiency is Stover's fancy way of saying: his attacks got faster. Secondly, the narrative during that specific scene was clearly from Kenobi's point of view as it's describing how he simply is who he is and how his internal thought process of using his defense for an offense.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Jango doesn't need to see the shooters to know they're there. He anticipated their arrival and made his escape, causing his assailants to miss target. I'm not sure what you're trying to prove here? Although, I'm not surprised that you think the already misleading title of 'hypersonic Jedi' is conservative. Given your attempts to claim magnagaurd-killers are vastly faster than light, and your willingness to ignore almost every credible dictionary's definition of Nanosecond, and how it's used in literature.

Jango didn't anticipate anyone, nor did he even see the shooters coming. Someone fired at him from behind, he ducked quickly enough to dodge the moment the shot was fired.

As for the MagnaGuard thing; again, that was during a mass-troll fest of mine particulary to tick off certain users, so you can quit attempting to ad hominem my old troll statements in order to try and de-face my current argument.

And the definition of nanosecond is: "A measure of time equal to one billionth of a second", so I don't know what you're getting at with me disregarding the definition of a word.

And yeah, suggesting Kenobi's reflexes are hypersonic really is conservative given how the RotS novel states he and Anakin both have a "respectable fraction of lightspeed" and shows them outmanuvering Tri-fighters opperating at lightspeed. Heck, even Leia and Luke, prior to any true formal Jedi training(Leia didn't even know she was Force-sensitive) have reacted to and flown their ships at comparable-to-lightspeed.

Why people bother debating Ziggy is beyond me.

Better than debating Syndicate, that's for sure.

Nah, DD is retarded --- but Ziggy is both creepy and retarded.

That being said, I don't Syndi either besides trolling the shit out of him.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Nah, DD is retarded --- but Ziggy is both creepy and retarded.

Not really creepy/retarded so much as pretentious, tedious, and odd.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
That being said, I don't Syndi either besides trolling the shit out of him.

Same. Usually when you try and debate him seriously, it turns into some sh!t-fest of unorganised posts and quotes.

Originally posted by MythLord
Not really creepy/retarded so much as pretentious, tedious, and odd.


You'll have to excuse DC one. He's still upset about the time I ****ed his little brother, DBoy.

Originally posted by MythLord
Same. Usually when you try and debate him seriously, it turns into some sh!t-fest of unorganised posts and quotes.

You know what's wrong with this post. As I told you a large section ( around 10,000 words ) of my post got deleted when it was all in a nice little bundle. You saw fit to take advantage of only the quotes being posted so I had to post as I went through your argument to prevent you from trolling the hell out of me even more then you already did. If you really are having trouble responding because of the formatting I can repost everything in two parts. I honestly would love it if I could do that now as I hate how messy and disorganized it is current but unfortunately the KMC system is utterly broken and doesn't allow you to edit your posts after 15 minutes.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
You'll have to excuse DC one. He's still upset about the time I ****ed his little brother, DBoy.

That's not just creepy, it's disturbing.

Originally posted by Syndicate
You know what's wrong with this post. As I told you a large section ( around 10,000 words ) of my post got deleted when it was all in a nice little bundle. You saw fit to take advantage of only the quotes being posted so I had to post as I went through your argument to prevent you from trolling the hell out of me even more then you already did. If you really are having trouble responding because of the formatting I can repost everything in two parts. I honestly would love it if I could do that now as I hate how messy and disorganized it is current but unfortunately the KMC system is utterly broken and doesn't allow you to edit your posts after 15 minutes.

Not referring to just our Shaak VS Felucia Galen debate... most debates you're in, the posts you make are unorganised. I think it'll make your argument much more convincing if you can read it coherently.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
You'll have to excuse DC one. He's still upset about the time I ****ed his little brother, DBoy.

If my brother wants to smash you, that's his prerogative. I really don't care, KEK.

My qualm with you stems from the fact, that you post like a mentally retarded monkey on crack --- who also happens to sport half a brain with 99% of it's brain cells dead.

I still love ya, tho my sweetheart. <3

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
If my brother wants to smash you, that's his prerogative. I really don't care, KEK.

My qualm with you stems from the fact, that you post like a mentally retarded monkey on crack --- who also happens to sport half a brain with 99% of it's brain cells dead.


So better than everyone on KMC then

Originally posted by MythLord
Not referring to just our Shaak VS Felucia Galen debate... most debates you're in, the posts you make are unorganised. I think it'll make your argument much more convincing if you can read it coherently.

I quoted you this time if that's what you're referring to.

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