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MCU Punisher vs Nobu, from the Daredevil series.

- H2H fight (no armour or weapons), where Matt fought Nobu the first time in s1.
- Both opponents are bloodlusted.
- Win via KO/Death.
- Starting distance is 20 feet.

Nobu, easily.

Whoever wins, I doubt they'd do so "easily". Punisher showed himself capable of hanging with Daredevil on multiple occasions, and Matt himself has defeated Nobu more than once at this point.

Nobu

Nobu.

good match, but Nobu stomps here

IIRC, everytime Nobu fought DD he had weapons. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

Which means he's fairly light in terms of h2h feats. On the other hand Frank has quite a collection of h2h fight scenes. So I'll be siding with Frank on this one.

Nobu is overrated, Frank kills him.

Originally posted by FrothByte
IIRC, everytime Nobu fought DD he had weapons. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

Which means he's fairly light in terms of h2h feats. On the other hand Frank has quite a collection of h2h fight scenes. So I'll be siding with Frank on this one.

You are making the mistake of going for quantity over quality. Below Nobu dominates DD way worse than Punisher every did for the first part of the match which is strictly h2h, before he uses the hook and chain. By the way DD has his full armored costume on as well. That's more impressive than beating up a bunch of random goons.

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He did decently there against Matt in H2H, but he got his ass kicked at pure H2H during their next encounter (when Matt was on his beast rampage, after Stick gave him that whole "go deeper" speech, in order to track the Hand guys without needing to listen to their weapons).

Definitely Nobu given better durability (Withstanding falling off a building/being burned alive), and he definitely has shown himself to give better fights to Matt.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
He did decently there against Matt in H2H, but he got his ass kicked at pure H2H during their next encounter (when Matt was on his beast rampage, after Stick gave him that whole "go deeper" speech, in order to track the Hand guys without needing to listen to their weapons).

Here's where your argument fails.
In the final battle of season 2, a disarmed Nobu not only disarms and defeats both DD and Elektra, but is about to kill DD. He is saved by Elektra who dies from Nobu stabbing her with her own sai. There is no way season 2 Punisher unarmed could disarm and defeat both Elektra and DD simultaneously, and be in the position for a kill strike on DD.

Nobu is more skilled and more durable than Punisher.

ZdpvbxvHats

Originally posted by Supermutant
Here's where your argument fails.
In the final battle of season 2, a disarmed Nobu not only disarms and defeats both DD and Elektra, but is about to kill DD. He is saved by Elektra who dies from Nobu stabbing her with her own sai. There is no way season 2 Punisher unarmed could disarm and defeat both Elektra and DD simultaneously, and be in the position for a kill strike on DD.

Nobu is more skilled and more durable than Punisher.

ZdpvbxvHats

What argument? Where did I say Punisher wins? I didn't. I made this match because I was personally undecided as to the winner. All I did was point out that Nobu got his ass kicked during the one-on-one he had with Matt in episode 12. Because he did.

And would just like to point out that two-on-one isn't always the massive automatic advantage people assume it to be. In order for numbers to work, you have to know how to fight together properly (like Cap & Bucky, for example). Otherwise, all it does is mess up your own rhythm, having to pause every time the other person goes in to attack. And I notice that clip does not include when Matt was initially handling him one-on-one (he managed to knock Nobu down twice, which Nobu failed to do in return), or the end of the fight, where Matt takes him out and tosses him off the roof.

I don't have an issue with people thinking Nobu wins. But some people are acting as though Nobu can easily defeat Frank, and that's what I disagree with.

Good match. Nobu is more skilled and there is really no way to kill him h2h unless you have kingpin's strength and can rip his head off.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
What argument? Where did I say Punisher wins? I didn't. I made this match because I was personally undecided as to the winner. All I did was point out that Nobu got his ass kicked during the one-on-one he had with Matt in episode 12. Because he did.

And would just like to point out that two-on-one isn't always the massive automatic advantage people assume it to be. In order for numbers to work, you have to know how to fight together properly (like Cap & Bucky, for example). Otherwise, all it does is mess up your own rhythm, having to pause every time the other person goes in to attack. And I notice that clip does not include when Matt was initially handling him one-on-one (he managed to knock Nobu down twice, which Nobu failed to do in return), or the end of the fight, where Matt takes him out and tosses him off the roof.

I don't have an issue with people thinking Nobu wins. But some people are acting as though Nobu can easily defeat Frank, and that's what I disagree with. Good points. It definitely would not be an easy match.

Something of note, Nobu was able to get the better of DD at times because every time he was knock down he came back at full strength. Nobu is skilled enough to give Matt plenty of trouble but fighting someone who can come back as if this was their first encounter is clearly and advantage for Nobu.

Nobu definitely wins.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
What argument? Where did I say Punisher wins? I didn't. I made this match because I was personally undecided as to the winner. All I did was point out that Nobu got his ass kicked during the one-on-one he had with Matt in episode 12. Because he did.

Where did I say that you believe Punisher would win? Your argument against Nobu stomping Frank is that "Nobu got his ass kicked" by Matt 1 on 1. In which I have already shown that Nobu kicked DD's ass on two different occasions. Furthermore, Nobu was not down for the count doing his "ass-kicking," but DD was after his last "ass-kicking" left him in a completely defenseless position even with the help of Elektra. Which brings us here:

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
And would just like to point out that two-on-one isn't always the massive automatic advantage people assume it to be. In order for numbers to work, you have to know how to fight together properly (like Cap & Bucky, for example). Otherwise, all it does is mess up your own rhythm, having to pause every time the other person goes in to attack. And I notice that clip does not include when Matt was initially handling him one-on-one (he managed to knock Nobu down twice, which Nobu failed to do in return), or the end of the fight, where Matt takes him out and tosses him off the roof.

You counter your own point lol cause the example you give with Cap & Bucky fighting in tandem applies here. DD and Elektra trained together for a while and was shown on multiple occasions fighting ninjas and enemies as a team. They also didn't do so bad against Nobu in the beginning. So this wasn't Nobu getting lucky b/c DD and Elektra was bumbling around each other or getting in each other's way, Nobu is just that skilled combined with his ridiculous damage soak.
They even did a few combo moves on their opponents.

pszz7Xrxj24



Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
I don't have an issue with people thinking Nobu wins. But some people are acting as though Nobu can easily defeat Frank, and that's what I disagree with.

Since you made the fight its partly your fought that some feel that way. B/c you took away Frank's armor and weapons, and had him go h2h against someone who is more skilled and more durable. This is simple, it is easier for Nobu to ko or killed Frank than vice versa strictly h2h.

Originally posted by Supermutant
Where did I say that you believe Punisher would win? Your argument against Nobu stomping Frank is that "Nobu got his ass kicked" by Matt 1 on 1. In which I have already shown that Nobu kicked DD's ass on two different occasions. Furthermore, Nobu was not down for the count doing his "ass-kicking," but DD was after his last "ass-kicking" left him in a completely defenseless position even with the help of Elektra. Which brings us here:


Nobu was KO'd until Matt was gone. Of course it didn't put him down permanently though. Short of a decap, nothing we've seen so far has. And again, Matt also beat him one-on-one at the end, and tossed him off the roof. So 2 instances where Matt beat him as well.

Originally posted by Supermutant

You counter your own point lol cause the example you give with Cap & Bucky fighting in tandem applies here. DD and Elektra trained together for a while and was shown on multiple occasions fighting ninjas and enemies as a team. They also didn't do so bad against Nobu in the beginning. So this wasn't Nobu getting lucky b/c DD and Elektra was bumbling around each other or getting in each other's way, Nobu is just that skilled combined with his ridiculous damage soak.
They even did a few combo moves on their opponents.

pszz7Xrxj24


Again, this does not get around the fact that Matt performed better against Nobu one-on-one during the season finale than he did alongside Elektra (as well as the episode 12 fight). Just because they can fight together doesn't mean they automatically fight heaps better. We see both Matt and Elektra handle groups of opponents with ease while fighting solo as well. I am not saying it is not a good showing for Nobu. It's a very good showing, and probably the clincher that does give him the win. But to just focus on that, and not take the other showings into regard, is not being fair IMO. I mean the very first fight Frank and Matt had it took Frank only a few seconds to lay DD down on his ass (though Matt did get the better of him the second time). So both have some really strong showings.


Originally posted by Supermutant

Since you made the fight its partly your fought that some feel that way. B/c you took away Frank's armor and weapons, and had him go h2h against someone who is more skilled and more durable. This is simple, it is easier for Nobu to ko or killed Frank than vice versa strictly h2h.

That's the thing though. Based on consistent showings (beyond one instance where Nobu briefly gets the better of Elektra and Matt at once), if we take Matt as a measuring stick, Nobu and Frank's H2H skills are fairly close (though I will concede Nobu has an overall edge, likely due to having multiple lifetimes to develop his skills). And while Frank does not have the immortal thing going for him, he himself is tough enough to take abuse that would easily put down the average human and keep fighting.

So I can see Nobu winning, but I don't see it happening without Punisher getting a couple of decent licks in.

Also, I felt giving Punisher a gun would make this thread really dumb, because he could just shoot Nobu then, even if I gave Nobu his own weapon of choice.

Vault you are a fair debater and this match is far from spite. However Matt seems only able to get an advantage over Nobu from witnessing some horrible event. Like when he could hear his mentor being tortured or his former love sacrificing herself for him. Punisher doesn't have any of those here to go "hero can't be defeated mode."

Fair enough. It seems we both agree Nobu wins. I just think it's closer than you do. And I think it's much closer than any other match I could create between these two. Give them full gear and Frank has too much of a ranged advantage. Make it melee, but with weapons, and Nobu would absolutely wreck. Frank has no standard melee weapon that I can recall, and no conventional melee tool is going to compare to Nobu's in anyways (you need something like Matt's billy club, which has comparable range and mobility, and Frank has zero feats using something like that). A fist fight was the most equal scenario.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller


Again, this does not get around the fact that Matt performed better against Nobu one-on-one during the season finale than he did alongside Elektra (as well as the episode 12 fight). Just because they can fight together doesn't mean they automatically fight heaps better. We see both Matt and Elektra handle groups of opponents with ease while fighting solo as well. I am not saying it is not a good showing for Nobu. It's a very good showing, and probably the clincher that does give him the win. But to just focus on that, and not take the other showings into regard, is not being fair IMO. I mean the very first fight Frank and Matt had it took Frank only a few seconds to lay DD down on his ass (though Matt did get the better of him the second time). So both have some really strong showings. I'd chalk it up to massive PIS tbh. Otherwise, it suggests that Matt alone would be able to beat both himself and Elektra at the same time which just doesn't make sense. For the most part, Nobu almost stomped him with they fought.

I'd give Nobu a pretty confortable win here. Especially since I've always considered DD>Punisher by a small margin.

Originally posted by Arachnid1
I'd chalk it up to massive PIS tbh. Otherwise, it suggests that Matt alone would be able to beat both himself and Elektra at the same time which just doesn't make sense. For the most part, Nobu almost stomped him with they fought.

I personally don't feel we can chalk it all up to PIS. Even if we go back to their season 1 fight, a less capable and experienced DD still managed to put up a decent fight against Nobu at the time. And Nobu had a notable advantage in weapons, plus Fisk mentioned that he had meditated and prepped for several hours for the fight. Matt didn't even know he was there until he revealed himself. But still couldn't finish Matt off. On his return fight in season 2, he most definitely got the better of that fight, but Matt still managed to put up some level of resistance during the confrontation. Nobu, in return, got beaten decisively in episode 12 himself. So both had clear showings where they came out better.

Then during the initial confrontation Matt was holding his own just fine against Nobu on his own. Then Nobu briefly does get the better of them both. But it's not like that's an uncommon theme in these types of shows, where the villain suddenly mounts a burst out of nowhere to gain the upper hand. But then we also see Matt, once he no longer holds back (because he normally fights with enough restraint not to kill) defeating Nobu again. So way I see it, based on how all their one-on-one fights played out, Nobu briefly beating both Elektra and DD at once during the climax of the season finale is closer to PIS than DD doing a good job of holding his own against Nobu one-on-one on multiple other occasions. But anyway, we can debate this the whole day and get nowhere, because it's our own personal interpretations of the fights and portrayals. In the end, I am convinced at this point that Nobu does take the win, and that's really what matters.

With regards to DD and Punisher, I feel like Punisher started off with a bit of an advantage when they first encountered each other, but over their clashes across the series, Matt slowly started to get a measure of him until he had a bit of an edge, as seen during their final fight (yes, I know there was also plot involved, but Matt still came out looking better than Frank regardless). But I consider all these guys within the same overall fighting tier.

In pure Hand to Hand combat, I'm going with Punisher every single time...

Every time...


Punisher has some of the best damage soak out there among the non superhuman street leveler types...

He also will fight until every drop of blood from his body is gone...

Punisher can fight dirty, has advanced military combat training, and fights extremely hard at all times...


Punisher 10000/10...