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In Legends canon, what would your list be? We're talking about overall dueling ability, not just technical skill.

Mine:

1. Luke Skywalker
2. Darth Sidious
3. Yoda
4. Anakin Skywalker
5. Darth Caedus
6. Darth Plagueis
7. Darth Krayt
8. Darth Vader
9. Mace Windu
10. Count Dooku

Could be on the list: Jaina Solo, Exar Kun, Outlander, some others maybe

Not including oddities like Nyax, post-pool Taalon, etc.

So much trash.

Dooku doesn't find his way on the top 25 list, rofl.

Ikr, Anakin should be #1

Originally posted by The Ellimist
In Legends canon, what would your list be? We're talking about overall dueling ability, not just technical skill.

Mine:

1. Luke Skywalker
2. Darth Sidious
3. Yoda
4. Anakin Skywalker
5. Darth Plagueis
6. Darth Krayt
7. Darth Caedus
8. Darth Vader
9. Mace Windu
10. Count Dooku

Could be on the list: Jaina Solo, Exar Kun, Outlander, some others maybe

Not including oddities like Nyax, post-pool Taalon, etc.

Fixed it a bit.




Originally posted by DarthAnt66
So much trash.

Dooku doesn't find his way on the top 25 list, rofl.

Pfft, yes he does.

1. Luke Skywalker
2. Yoda
3. Palpatine
4. Revan
5. Darth Malgus
6. Tulak Hord | Darth Marr
7. Darth Caedus
8. Hero of Tython | Arcann
9. Darth Plagueis
10. Darth Nyriss

1. Luke Skywalker (peak ability)
2. Anakin Skywalker (Peak ability)
3. The Outlander / Arcann
4. Revan
5. Lord Scourge
6. Nyriss
7. Exar Kun
8. Darth Krayt
9. Yoda
10. Malgus

Originally posted by JKBart

6. Tulak Hord | Darth Marr

Originally posted by JKBart
6. Darth Marr
8. Hero of Tython | Arcann

Even joking, this is dumb af.

True, broke it down way too fast during dinner.


1. Luke Skywalker
2. Yoda
3. Palpatine
4. Revan
5. Darth Malgus
6. Tulak Hord | Jacen Solo
7. Hero of Tython | Arcann
8. Darth Marr
9. Darth Plagueis
10. Darth Nyriss | Darth Krayt

Yeah, that seems legit.

In no particular order; Dooku, Obi Wan, Vader, Exar Kun, Ulic, Grievous, Caedus, Yoda, Mace Windu, Luke.

Wtf Syn? No Sheev or Luke?

TOR characters and ancients could potentially make the list, but there's not enough context for skill.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Wtf Syn? No Sheev or Luke?

My bad in regards to Luke.

Dooku makes top 8 solely b/c of Makashi.

Ah yes but Sheev is beneath people he would utterly shit on :/

Your list makes no sense Syn

Ant is kind of right in regards to Dooku, if you think about it.

Yeah I thought about it, and he is kinda right

I mean between intermittent Banites, Ancients, TOR characters, etc, he probably doesn't make it.

Luke, Sidious, Yoda, Anakin, Mace, Caedus, Exar, Ulic, Revan, Dooku, Obi-Wan, Jaina, Krayt, Hord, Plagueis... Yeah, that's what, 15? Top 15, then; screw the order.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Ah yes but Sheev is beneath people he would utterly shit on :/

Your list makes no sense Syn

In technical skill?

Someone didn't read the OP

Also Ventress vs Sidious technical skill Syn

For one thing, ew. Secondly, this isn't technical skill, this is overall effectiveness.

Yeah it's pretty ew anyways.

Ventress.

**** I give up on humanity.

holy shit...

Dooku gets shit on by Tenebrous in a duel.

Oh damn, I forgot about Tenebrous.

He's probably above Dooku, yeah.

A lot of the Banites probably are.

True.

I'd say the Banites have surpassed Revan long before Tenebrous.

Disagreed, though you don't have Revan above Vader like I do.

Dueling ability in just sabers or all out? In a 1 saber-wielder vs 1 saber-wielder or all out dueling on the battle-field?

I guess we can look at one vs. one duels with no offensive Force applications. Obviously there will be a rock-paper-scissors dynamic depending on match-ups, but you can still extract a general ability that people have against a large set of potential opponents.

1. Luke
2. Sidious
3. Yoda
4. Mace
5. Darth Plagueis
6. Jacen Solo
7. Anakin
8. Darth Vader
9. Exar Kun
10. Darth Krayt

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I guess we can look at one vs. one duels with no offensive Force applications. Obviously there will be a rock-paper-scissors dynamic depending on match-ups, but you can still extract a general ability that people have against a large set of potential opponents.
Dooku definitely makes top 8 then in that case.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
1. Luke
2. Sidious
3. Yoda
4. Mace
5. Darth Plagueis
6. Jacen Solo
7. Anakin
8. Darth Vader
9. Exar Kun
10. Darth Krayt
Plagueis is above Anakin and Vader really? How does he even make the top 10?

Buh... But what about Tulak Horrr?

I'll do a top 15 like Sasukedc.

My top 4 (in order): Luke, Yoda, Sheev, Plagueis.

The next 9 (not in order): Hord, Kun, Revan, Windu, Kenobi, Anakin, Caedus, Krayt.

And I'll leave 2 spots open so I don't get bashed for missing anyone.

Looks like 2:30am me is AIDS at addition. ^

You're AIDS at a lot.

In no specific order:

- Luke Skywalker
- Darth Caedus
- Palpatine
- Yoda
- Tulak Hord
- Obi-Wan Kenobi
- Hero of Tython
- Emperor's Wrath II
- Exar Kun
- Mace Windu

Honorable mentions:

- Revan
- Arcann
- Anakin Skywalker
- The Emperor's Wrath
- Count Dooku
- Darth Marr
- Meetra Surik
- Lord Kas'im
- Darth Bane
- Darth Nyriss

What of Plagueis, Dooku, Vader/Anakin, other ancients such as Ragnos, intermediary Banite Sith like Tenebrous, (who's probably a much more potent/effective swordsman than Kenobi,) etc?

Luke
Yoda
Sidious
Vader
Mace
Anakin
Dooku
Obi Wan

those are the only guys I have solid info on as far as saber skill goes

Excluding the speculative prowess of the ancient Sith:

#1 Luke Skywalker
#2 Master Yoda
#3 Darth Sidious
#4 Darth Plagueis
#5 Darth Tenebrous
#6/7 Darth Caedus
#6/7 Darth Krayt
#8 Exar Kun
#9/10 Darth Vader
#9/10 Anakin Skywalker

Honourable Mentions: Revan, Count Dooku, Mace Windu, Jaina Solo, Ulic-Qel Droma & Obi-Wan Kenobi.

Why Krayt but not Revan?

Why no to the ancient Sith but yet Tenebrous?

Why Vader above Skywaker?

Anakin is the best duelist in the mythos.

1. Luke
2. Sidious/Yoda
3. Hego/Caedus
4. Anakin
5. Mace/Dooku
6. Exar/Bane/Zannah
7. Vader/Krayt
8. Revan
9. Jaina/Kenobi
10. Maul/Ulic

This is not including beings that are vague and hard to place like Hord, Tenebrous, Yaddle and the likes.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Why Krayt but not Revan?Because Kun, Vader and Skywalker are better than him. Based on Banite powerscaling, and all things indicating Tenebrous > Plagueis as of his duel with Venamis and perhaps beyond.Edited to be interchangeable, but all Skywalker has on him is greater speed and versatility, which is not enough imo.

I asked Krayt, not them. I don't see Krayt's accomplishments (the four guards and besting Skywalker with usage of the Force) more impressive than Revan's accomplishments (literal armies and besting Star Forge Malak with Force abilities hindered). Plus, battle precognotion.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Edited to be interchangeable, but all Skywalker has on him is greater speed and versatility, which is not enough imo.
I don't see it. To me personally, the reason why Skywalker is so good is the fact all of his abilities, powers, and strengths are rooted in a virtually unlimited pool of power. With Vader, that's not remotely the case, as Lucas as stated time and time again. Plus, Skywalker has shown far greater combat feats than Vader, utterly dominating the likes of Drallig and Dooku. Vader's best is stalemating his apprentice and besting ANH Kenobi.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I asked Krayt, not them. I don't see Krayt's accomplishments (the four guards and besting Skywalker with usage of the Force) more impressive than Revan's accomplishments (literal armies and besting Star Forge Malak with Force abilities hindered). Plus, battle precognotion.I'm not basing Krayt's superiority over those accomplishments, rather being able to hold his own against post-RotS Kenobi before building on those talents through over a century of training and combat experience. I see nothing that suggests Revan possesses appreciable dueling talent to what that would give.

Krayt also strikes me as in general the more powerful Force user, so I'd give him a Force augmentative and yes precognitive advantage as well.And yet in both Canon & Legends Vader believes himself more powerful than ever, which is reflected by his far advanced telekinetic prowess. And I'm more impressed by him moving in tandem with Darth Sidious in LotS, and handily advantaging himself over Starkiller in TFU II than dominating a tired and stylistically disadvantaged Dooku, and a featless Drallig.

His performance against Kenobi wasn't as impressive as you're making it out to be. His two blows against Kenobi (a kick and a punch) were done early in the fight before Kenobi got himself situation in a defensive position. The text even made note that Kenobi then deflected everything Hett had to offer, and would have presumably done so with ease if not for the environment they were fighting in. When Kenobi realized he was fighting for Luke, he quickly ended the fight, and that was that. I don't see how briefly fighting Yuuzhan Vong warriors, training under a Sith sorcerer on Korriban, and fighting unknown opponents on unknown worlds translates to anything that then puts him beyond Revan.

And Revan's battle precognotion isn't Force-based. It's derived from his mastery over the Echani arts and reinforced by his dominance in the fields of psychological and conventional warfare. Add that onto his Force-based precognotion, which should be on parity with Krayt, and he's the obvious superior in that department.

---

Vader's opinion is blatantly biased and irrelevant. Vader's strongest relevant telekinetic showing is Force pushing Marek and Tano, which isn't a drastic difference from Skywalker pushing Dooku in the RotS comic. Plus, I recall in LotS that Palpatine was reserving his power. Also, you label Drallig as featless, but what has Marek ever shown other than being humiliated by Ti? And Dooku got tired because of Skywalker's domination of him. That was the entire point.

Originally posted by Kurk
Plagueis is above Anakin and Vader really? How does he even make the top 10?
Banite scaling, logic, and reasoning?

Tbh Revan's battle precog has only been credited to him in a strategic sense. There's no evidence for him using it on a personal combat level.

The amount of aids-tier 'top-tens' in this thread is staggering.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Tbh Revan's battle precog has only been credited to him in a strategic sense. There's no evidence for him using it on a personal combat level.
The Echani use it for primarily single combat. The fact Revan can use it for entire battles shows how good Revan is at it, not that he's limited to just large-scale engagements. That was the whole point.

Krayt > Revan in sabers.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The Echani use it for primarily single combat. The fact Revan can use it for entire battles shows how good Revan is at it, not that he's limited to just large-scale engagements. That was the whole point.

Brianna never actually says that Revan used battle precog, just that he was able to predict the path of wars which was the highest state the Echani tried to obtain. He could have just done this through, you know, being a genius or regular visions of the future. Also, how would Brianna possibly know if Revan could use battle precog, lmao. He isn't even described as doing anything regular battle precog does, appearing to predict wars (theres no way she could know he even did that tbh) doesn't prove anything.

MY PERSONAL LIST UNFORTUNATELY EXCLUDING ANCIENTS AND TENEBROUS:

1. Luke Skywalker
2. Darth Sidious
3. Grandmaster Yoda
4. Darth Plagueis
5. Anakin Skywalker
6. Darth Caedus
7. Exar Kun
8. Mace Windu
9. Darth Krayt
10. Darth Vader

Honorable mentions: Arcann, Ulic Qel Droma, Jaina Solo, The Outlander, (who will certainly end up on the list as his power grows,) Bane, Revan, etc.

Plus tbh, the precog from the Echani would be kinda redundant for Revan cause...he already has precog to use in battle.

@ Nephthys:

"The Echani were awed by his precog and natural skill with tactics." --Avellone

(Neph, see page prior)
Originally posted by Zenwolf
Plus tbh, the precog from the Echani would be kinda redundant for Revan cause...he already has precog to use in battle.
Standard precognition can't be used to predict the path of entire wars.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Standard precognition can't be used to predict the path of entire wars.

I was meaning personal fights. Hence "use in battle" bit.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
@ Nephthys:

"The Echani were awed by his precog and natural skill with tactics." --Avellone

That doesn't say what you think it says.

Pretty sure it does. It says the Echani were awed by Revan's precognition ability, obviously referring to battle precognition.

It says that the Echani were in awe of his precognitive ability, nowhere does it say this was not Force based, but rather their martial art that he had at some unspecified point mastered.

Who cares, let's celebrate that Revan isn't a top 10 duelist guys

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
@ Nephthys:

"The Echani were awed by his precog and natural skill with tactics." --Avellone



Kek, you were the one who just said precog and battle precog were different. This doesn't suggest anything to do with the latter, lol.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
MY PERSONAL LIST UNFORTUNATELY EXCLUDING ANCIENTS

I find Revan's handling of sith armies to be better than anything Krayt, Kun or Caedus have done.

Occams Razor guys. The simplest solution is best solution; we know the Echani are essentially bread for combat through precognitive abilities, so them commenting on Revan's precog is clearly referring to his Battle Precognition.

Czar Kun isn't an ancient relative to the ancients.

Originally posted by MythLord
Occams Razor guys. The simplest solution is best solution; we know the Echani are essentially bread for combat through precognitive abilities, so them commenting on Revan's precog is clearly referring to his Battle Precognition. Why would they just be in awe of regular precog when it has nothing to do with their culture or fighting techniques?

Bread?

Really?

That kind of talk won't prove Yoggy's superiority

Originally posted by MythLord
Occams Razor guys. The simplest solution is best solution; we know the Echani are essentially bread for combat through precognitive abilities, so them commenting on Revan's precog is clearly referring to his Battle Precognition. As in the Force based one, not the non-Force based Echani martial art.

Force Precognition is Force-based. Battle precognition is tactics-based. The quote "I always felt Revan was an incredible tactician, and the Echani were awed by his precog and natural skill with tactics" directly associates Revan's precognition with his tactics, not his Force abilities. Furthermore, Brianna directly told the Exile how battle precognition works and then said "only Revan ever demonstrated such a skill in war. And even as he slaughtered us, the Echani still respected him."

Originally posted by MythLord
Occams Razor guys. The simplest solution is best solution; we know the Echani are essentially bread for combat through precognitive abilities, so them commenting on Revan's precog is clearly referring to his Battle Precognition.

He achieved their ideal, it isn't necessary that he used their methods. How would they even know, did he send the a fax telling them he was using battle precog? How would Revan even learn it?

Avellone said Revan was innately skilled in the practice, IIRC.

Plus it's almost like he studies the tactics of his enemies... mmm

Or the fact his master personally wedded the greatest of the Echani.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Force Precognition is Force-based. Battle precognition is tactics-based. The quote "I always felt Revan was an incredible tactician, and the Echani were awed by his precog and natural skill with tactics" directly associates Revan's precognition with his tactics, not his Force abilities. Furthermore, Brianna directly told the Exile how battle precognition works and then said "only Revan ever demonstrated such a skill in war. And even as he slaughtered us, the Echani still respected him." And yet in describing Revan as an incredible tactician, he cites two things 1. his precognitive ability and 2. his tactical ability.

By your own words what you've described would fall under 2., 1. therefore could only refer to Force ability.

And yeah, that doesn't mean he achieved it through the same means. Brianna essentially says that by reading their opponents they could predict what they could do on a microcosmic and macro-cosmic level. The former Revan can replicate with Force-based precognition, the latter with exceptional tactical ability. Just like Avellone says.

Beni can expect a reply from me when I'm at a computer btw, very interested in proving Krayt's beastliness.

What? No. That's retarded. The fact he made a distinction means precognition and tactical ability isn't synonymous, which we already knew. Force-precognition cannot be used in the ways Brianna is explaining. When Brianna says "such a skill," she's referring to the Echani arts, for she's explaining to the Exile how it works. She's not explaining general precognition and saying Revan could also do it due to the Force. That wouldn't make any sense, since then he wouldn't have been capable of accomplishing the skill she cited, given it requires calculating and gauging heart beats, fighting styles, combat moves, etc, which Force-based precognition doesn't do. Since you're retarded though, I emailed Avellone. I bet every existing respect thread I have, including the Revan respect thread, that he's referring to a non-Force based form of precognition similar, if not identical, to the Echani's. Still respond to this though, since I want you to actually try to argue otherwise until Avellone brings down the hammer so I'm more satisfied with you enduring another defeat.

Why would Brianna be a remotely reliable source of info on Revan's skills?

It seems clear the Echani knew Revan was using their tactics and abilities against them, just like the Mandalorians before them.

They're just assuming things based on their own cultural perceptions. As I said at the beginning, there's no indication at all that he was using battle precognition and the implication is very weak.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
What? No. That's retarded. The fact he made a distinction means precognition and tactical ability isn't synonymous, which we already knew. Force-precognition cannot be used in the ways Brianna is explaining. When Brianna says "such a skill," she's referring to the Echani arts, for she's explaining to the Exile how it works. She's not explaining general precognition and saying Revan could also do it due to the Force. That wouldn't make any sense, since then he wouldn't have been capable of accomplishing the skill she cited, given it requires calculating and gauging heart beats, fighting styles, combat moves, etc, which Force-based precognition doesn't do. Since you're retarded though, I emailed Avellone. I bet every existing respect thread I have, including the Revan respect thread, that he's referring to a non-Force based form of precognition similar, if not identical, to the Echani's. Still respond to this though, since I want you to actually try to argue otherwise until Avellone brings down the hammer so I'm more satisfied with you enduring another defeat. Do you do paragraphs? Lol.

Anyway if you are going to email Avellone, I'll await his response.

Now, as for the remainder of your points.Originally posted by DarthAnt66
His performance against Kenobi wasn't as impressive as you're making it out to be. His two blows against Kenobi (a kick and a punch) were done early in the fight before Kenobi got himself situation in a defensive position. The text even made note that Kenobi then deflected everything Hett had to offer, and would have presumably done so with ease if not for the environment they were fighting in. When Kenobi realized he was fighting for Luke, he quickly ended the fight, and that was that.It's impressive enough to substantiate him as a master duelist, nor do I see what was stopping Kenobi from situating himself from the get go. Incompetence? Yeah don't think so. And that Kenobi blocked all his attacks is to state the obvious, considering he didn't die, Hett however nonetheless managed to expose and exploit lapses in his defense, which despite the enviroment remains quite impressive considering Kenobi's exceptional credentials as a Soresu duelist. As for Kenobi's swift victory at the end, a clever application of the Force with previously absent lethal intent is hardly relevant to his saber defense.
Considering that as far as saber mastery goes he's already approaching what we can assume of Revan's talents as Hett, 100 years of combat experience against thousands of opponents + extensive training, should be enough to advance Krayt's skill with the blade beyond him.Biased and irrelevant? Substantiate that with... anything lol. If anyone has the greatest grasp over Vader's capabilities it is the man himself.

As for his telekinetic abilities, Force gripping, not pushing Marek > shoving Dooku.He is said to have shown little of his power, which implies he showed some. And the point at which Vader is described as moving in tandem with Darth Sidious is within the contexts of the greatest threat they faced all day - the Lylek nest, and the most likely candidate for when Sidious brought out the big guns.

Regardless, even when holding back the power Palpatine displays in the novel far exceeds anything Dooku has demonstrated, let along Drallig.

As for Marek being humiliated by Ti, he wasn't so let's start there. Namely at defeating one of the greatest PT swordsmasters amped by a nexus and with a planet at her command, before his peak. Right, before Skywalker dominated him in 15 seconds. My point is that Dooku wasn't at his best going into that fight.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Beni can expect a reply from me when I'm at a computer btw, very interested in proving Krayt's beastliness. Very good.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Since you're retarded though, I emailed Avellone. I bet every existing respect thread I have, including the Revan respect thread, that he's referring to a non-Force based form of precognition similar, if not identical, to the Echani's. Still respond to this though, since I want you to actually try to argue otherwise until Avellone brings down the hammer so I'm more satisfied with you enduring another defeat.



Ant is very... passionate when it comes to championing Revanchist-pride. It's quite the sight to behold.

Heck I may as well respond to this anyway, if only to debunk the proof you currently possess.Originally posted by DarthAnt66
What? No. That's retarded. The fact he made a distinction means precognition and tactical ability isn't synonymous, which we already knew.Which does nothing to diminish my point, but only reinforces it. Which all amounts to being able to predict what your opponent is going to do next, which is what Force precognition does. Again different methods to achieve the same ends, the ****ing point being made lmao.Originally posted by Ziggystardust


Ant is very... passionate when it comes to championing Revanchist-pride. It's quite the sight to behold. Oh yes it can be quite amusing. Gets a little stale after a while though.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Gets a little stale after a while though.
When I constant'y kick your ass on both here and SWTORF, my shoe gets tired after a while.

Anyway, will respond in a couple hours. Working on an X2 RT and then going to go tan.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
When I constant'y kick your ass on both here and SWTORF, my shoe gets tired after a while.*constantly

And as far as your victories over myself goes, correcting typos is all I can recall you ever managing.

Sadly, I have yet to correct the typo that is your life.

Placing Tenebrous on this list is AIDS.

Beni's logic is even moreso AIDS.

I'm never going to be the same again, after reading this thread. Not sure if Beni's suggestion is worse than Ant saying Krayt = Revan in sabers tho.

Originally posted by MythLord
1. Luke

6. Exar/Bane/Zannah


This is not including beings that are vague and hard to place like Hord, Tenebrous, Yaddle and the likes.

Originally posted by Selenial
Placing Tenebrous on this list is AIDS.


Was also wondering about this, tbh.

Originally posted by Selenial
Beni's logic is even moreso AIDS.
Glad mom agrees.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Sadly, I have yet to correct the typo that is your life. Typo? Only in retarded friend.Originally posted by Selenial
I'm never going to be the same again, after reading this thread.Try removing Krayt's cock from your mouth, you might feel better.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Typo? Only in retarded friend.
Another typo? mmm

No just a lack of comprehension on your part.

id like to know where you guys are getting the info on guys like Plaguies and Tenebrous being exceptional swordsmen because I don't recall the novel mentioning anything in depth about any of that; who would they have fought that could give them a challenge? the Sith weren't know to the Jedi til Sidious' time...

Conjecture.

Logic, reason, facts.

Originally posted by relentless1
id like to know where you guys are getting the info on guys like Plaguies and Tenebrous being exceptional swordsmen because I don't recall the novel mentioning anything in depth about any of that; who would they have fought that could give them a challenge? the Sith weren't know to the Jedi til Sidious' time...
The novel takes place slightly before and during TPM. That is Sidious' time.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Try removing Krayt's cock from your mouth, you might feel better.

That is the worst comeback you've ever come up with

Originally posted by relentless1
id like to know where you guys are getting the info on guys like Plaguies and Tenebrous being exceptional swordsmen

an retardation

Originally posted by relentless1
id like to know where you guys are getting the info on guys like Plaguies and Tenebrous being exceptional swordsmen
It's a little thing called common sense, lmao.

Sidious, Luke and Yoda are the undisputed top 3. The rest hardly matters.

Selenial is now an slave of Bart and I

AN

Originally posted by Selenial
That is the worst comeback you've ever come up with it's true tho and you know it

1.Luke Skywalker.
2.Master Yoda.
3.Darth Sidious.
4.Anakin Skywalker.
5.Darth Caedus.
6.Exar Kun.
7.Jaina Solo.
8.Darth Krayt.
9.Darth Plagueis.
10.Darth Vader.
11.Ulic Qel-Droma.
12.Mace Windu.
13.Arcann.
14.Emperor's Wrath.
15.Hero of Tython.

^ Yoda over DE Sidious?

Jaina over Krayt and Plagueis?

Ulic, Wrath and HoT over Mace and Dooku?

Yoda, Caedus, Anakin, Luke, Sidious, Windu, Dooku, Vader, Kenobi, Maul round out the top



The rest are debatable

Plagueis not being in the top 10 is anheroic, tbh.

See my edit.

Yoda was winning the duel against ROTS Sidious but losing the Force exchange, then the Emperor went on vacation and decides lightsabers were stupid until DE Sidious who I don't see any particular reason to above his Revenge of the Sith incarnation. Especially when Yoda > Amped DE Luke is clear and obvious.

Jaina was a somewhat match for Darth Caedus in his prime who even mentally admits that her technique is flawless in their duel. Then she went on to improve so much that she was stated to be the combat match of anybody in the Jedi Order.

Yoda > Amped DE Luke is clear and obvious in terms of dueling?

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Plagueis not being in the top 10 is anheroic, tbh.

Needs more feats for me at least, but I've never actually been able to give him a rank

His Venamis feat + immense power growth from then + absolutely absurd physicals = better than Maul as an effective swordsman, if I'm being honest.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Especially when Yoda > Amped DE Luke is clear and obvious.


How so?

DE Sidious is stated to have grown in power since RotJ, who has most probably grown in power from RotS given his intense study and draining of Byss. Plus Wankatine is in his youthful prime.

Jaina was being assisted whether by an amp or illusion though. Her duel with him is a bit difficult to quantify, but yeah she was basically second only to Luke as o FOTJ an improved massively from the Vong war

Can you see DE Luke moving faster than the B team without actually, y'know, moving? Amped DE Luke is great, by that point he'd be a clear superior to Darth Vader, which is great and all, but that isn't Yoda tier.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
How so?

DE Sidious is stated to have grown in power since RotJ, who has most probably grown in power from RotS given his intense study and draining of Byss. Plus Wankatine is in his youthful prime.



Though one could argue Yoda isn't at his peak in ROTS.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Can you see DE Luke moving faster than the B team without actually, y'know, moving? Amped DE Luke is great, by that point he'd be a clear superior to Darth Vader, which is great and all, but that isn't Yoda tier.

Amped DE Luke and Sidious were fighting faster than Leia could perceive, and yeah, I can totally see that, given that before his amp he's already implied to be more powerful than Vader in the Force, and is able to take down AT-ATs and impress Sidious - and this is six years after RotJ, during which he was already his equal as a duelist. Now extrapolate his presumably increasing saber skill over six years on top of massively increasing power in the Force, and it's not too difficult to believe that he could demolish the B-team. Sidious certainly took him more seriously than them.

In either case, amped! DE Luke's primary feat is fighting Sidious, so it's kind of circular to scale Sidious off of him. The more solid argument is that DE Sidious is explicitly more powerful than RotJ Sidious, who has studied the Force for two decades and drained the energies of Byss, alongside incredibly impressive feats, and then Wankatine gets put into his physical prime - yeah, he's probably above RotS Sidious as a duelist.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
How so?

DE Sidious is stated to have grown in power since RotJ, who has most probably grown in power from RotS given his intense study and draining of Byss. Plus Wankatine is in his youthful prime.

He grew in power but also decided dueling was stupid Jedi stuff and that his Force abilities would trash anybody regardless. In Lords of the Sith he did nothing dueling wise to say he'd improved there at all. DE Sidious is much more youthful indeed, but suffers the rather great distraction of having his body dying all the time.

It still doesn't tell me he's beating Yoda when the exact opposite was happening in their duel.

I don't think rust is going to outweigh his pretty substantial increase in raw power. It would be unreasonable to just assert that he never bothered to even try to maintain his saber skills just because he said something about lightsabers were BS in Dark Empire (and wasn't that after he had lost? Kek). Plagueis thought the same thing and he was still a beast in it.

Did Jaina and Jacen fight slayers outside of TUF?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Amped DE Luke and Sidious were fighting faster than Leia could perceive, and yeah, I can totally see that, given that before his amp he's already implied to be more powerful than Vader in the Force, and is able to take down AT-ATs and impress Sidious - and this is six years after RotJ, during which he was already his equal as a duelist. Now extrapolate his presumably increasing saber skill over six years on top of massively increasing power in the Force, and it's not too difficult to believe that he could demolish the B-team. Sidious certainly took him more seriously than them.

In either case, amped! DE Luke's primary feat is fighting Sidious, so it's kind of circular to scale Sidious off of him. The more solid argument is that DE Sidious is explicitly more powerful than RotJ Sidious, who has studied the Force for two decades and drained the energies of Byss, alongside incredibly impressive feats, and then Wankatine gets put into his physical prime - yeah, he's probably above RotS Sidious as a duelist.

Yes and Darth Sidious was moving in and out of existence when fighting Windu according to the vastly superior perceptions of Anakin Skywalker. Yet Yoda was surpassing that shit and outperformed Mace Windu in a far less favorable environment. All of which, in canon, was taking place in the proximity of a Sith shrine below the Jedi temple.

Yes and that's all great, but Yoda was out of his prime and Sidious improved in power, not skill, which sure lends him greater augmentation. But Yoda was straight up out-fencing Sidious, physically they were an obvious match.

No

Jaina did cut her way through an army of Vong soldiers alongside Mara Though and. Jacen was remarked by the Slayers as being the !2nd strongest duelist in the Slayer fight apart from Luke. Even as of TUF the twins are clearly above the other NJO Jedi masters barring Luke himself

Anyway barring the tier 1s It would probably be: Darth Krayt, Exar Kun, and the rest being Jaina, Arcann, Galen/Starkiller, Ulic, and Cade who are all pretty close on their own way with it just being preference. Ventress, Malgus, Leneer, Savage, Mara Jade, Wyyrlok are all skilled but somewhat inferior to them- and then you get the B team types after them