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Dreadnought

http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Dreadnought_class

vs

Imperial Class Star Destroyer

Full Crew for Both.

No Tie Fighters.

USS Vengeance skull ****s this inferior Wars ship.

Originally posted by quanchi112
USS Vengeance skull ****s this inferior Wars ship.
Okay we get it. Dreadnought wins IMO btw.

Shame we did not get to see what the massive torpedo launchers could do.

Abrams Trek aka the Kelvin timeline is truly awesome and formidable indeed.

The star destroyer annihilates it in one turbolaser hit.

If we're using Legends, just refer to Saxton's Incredible Cross Sections - a star destroyer could output triple digit teratons per volley, .ie energies that exceed the total payload capacity of the Dreadnought by multiple orders of magnitude.

If we're using Disney canon, just recreate an imitation of said calculations by referring to the asteroid field vaporization scenes in ESB, the various acceleration feats that can be turned into power generation estimates, etc.

By the numbers, the star destroyer walks over the entire Alpha Quadrant.

Despite my initial attempts at remaining civil in my discourse with you, I cannot help but let slip the impression everyone has gotten that you're kind of dumb. Your posts are horribly typed and your reasoning is absurd and uninteresting. Whenever people present analysis, facts and evidence to you, the only response they ever get from you is something something about "common sense" and derisions "nerd math" - vague, unsubstantiated opinions that a seven year old could have written. But the scariest thing is that, despite your inability to say anything of note, you don't recognize that you're stupid - you proudly boast about "winning" debates and "crushing" your enemies - you actually think you're a competent debater.


I kid, of course. Just need some catharsis after a long day, and Neph isn't around much anymore.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Despite my initial attempts at remaining civil in my discourse with you, I cannot help but let slip the impression everyone has gotten that you're kind of dumb. Your posts are horribly typed and your reasoning is absurd and uninteresting. Whenever people present analysis, facts and evidence to you, the only response they ever get from you is something something about "common sense" and derisions "nerd math" - vague, unsubstantiated opinions that a seven year old could have written. But the scariest thing is that, despite your inability to say anything of note, you don't recognize that you're stupid - you proudly boast about "winning" debates and "crushing" your enemies - you actually think you're a competent debater.


I kid, of course. Just need some catharsis after a long day, and Neph isn't around much anymore. I string together these posts in a minute or so which frequently have misspellings or autocorrections that I don't care to proofread. This isn't an English class or something. Interesting is subjective so who cares ? I guess you're going to have an easy official debate under your belt come this December. If you think I won't post evidence or take a little more time to proofread my posts you're wrong.


The star destroyer can't even take out the MF in a shot or two yet you believe it one shots the militarized, star fleet's secret weapon ship which wasn't obliterated by 72 plot device badass torpedoes aboard the ship without shields absorbing the brunt of it. In Rotj we see once the Executor's shields go down one tiny ship crashing into it completely took out the much bigger ship.

Come December you're mine. In Khan's name I stab at thee!!

Earlier Trek wasn't about the bigger explosions the general public would come to associate with a Star Wars film. Abrams changed all that. You see I didn't find the older prime timeline Star Trek interesting at all. I found the newer trek or the Kelvin timeline to be utterly amazing. I cared about these Star Trek characters I previously couldn't give a **** about. The only one I found someone interesting in the old Trek was Spock. The best part is he's the only one who came along for the ride.


The action in it and the space battles are top notch IMO. The kinds of power people were used to seeing in Star Wars was now being seen in Star Trek films because a Star Wars fan was in charge of reestablishing the brand. Get used to the comparisons because these films are made in the same vein these days.

The ICS is not canon anymore. The SD.Net version of Star Wars is pure wank.

Wong is the kind of dipshit that gives Han Solo the win over Q.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
The star destroyer annihilates it in one turbolaser hit.

So how did it not annihilate the Falcon in one hit?

Originally posted by playa1258
The ICS is not canon anymore. The SD.Net version of Star Wars is pure wank.

Wong is the kind of dipshit that gives Han Solo the win over Q. Wong is insane indeed but I've heard Star Wars fans back his insane conclusions.

Originally posted by playa1258
The ICS is not canon anymore.

Did you read my post?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Wong is insane indeed but I've heard Star Wars fans back his insane conclusions.

It's blatantly obvious, your attempt at bluffing aside, that you don't understand the physics he uses, so please stop making declarations you cannot support yourself.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
So how did it not annihilate the Falcon in one hit?

Because it's smart to destroy something that they are trying to capture alive?...

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Did you read my post?



It's blatantly obvious, your attempt at bluffing aside, that you don't understand the physics he uses, so please stop making declarations you cannot support yourself. If he can't back them up with official numbers it's guesswork to support his fanatical conclusions. I've seen Zelda debaters use the same nerd driven calculations to support Link's feats of strength and durability but then ignore when he's ko'd.

To the biased poster it goes like this

Conclusion>analysis>evidence.

Star Destroyer Avenger didn't take out the MF because it was trying to capture the crew alive and they were using their point defense lasers just for that. Sometimes I wonder if people actually watched Star Wars smh.

Originally posted by The Merchant
Star Destroyer Avenger didn't take out the MF because it was trying to capture the crew alive and they were using their point defense lasers just for that. Sometimes I wonder if people actually watched Star Wars smh.

Apparently, not because no matter how much direct context is shoved into the viewers face.

/Ahem...Luke and co were let go from the Death Star, noted twice within the movie literally right after one another.

They ignore such things.

All Wong did was quantify the scenes into actual scientific values using low ends to boot. Even without the numbers vaporizing asteroids is something that would hurt the Enterprise badly considering that I never really saw anything impressive in terms of durability in the 2nd film. Also believe it or not ISD's are faster considering they can keep up with their fighters and the Falcon and those have comparable speeds to X wings which we saw be able to travel the distance between Yavin IV and the Death Star in minutes at most and they got faster in combat.

quanchi, if your response to people requesting that you actually explain why the figures are bunk beyond just calling them "imaginary" and "made up" is to just advertise your "battle dome", you should just leave and come back when you want to actually debate. Nobody expects you to have something so fantastic in store that they'd be engrossed or left salivating by your tap dancing.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
quanchi, if your response to people requesting that you actually explain why the figures are bunk beyond just calling them "imaginary" and "made up" is to just advertise your "battle dome", you should just leave and come back when you want to actually debate. Nobody expects you to have something so fantastic in store that they'd be engrossed or left salivating by your tap dancing. If you can't definitively prove them then they are speculatory at best. I debate based off what I can prove not what I can speculate. I saw the same thing from the Zelda supporters and watch them tap dance when I listed numerous examples which contradicted their version of Link. We see in the latest Star Wars that these force wielding maniacs aren't the unbeatable monsters Star Wars debaters would have you think but rather vulnerable both emotionally and physically.

Take Kylo Ren for instance. In one scene we see him easily catch Poe's blaster bolt but in another scene he can't even evade a light saber slash from Finn of all people. What makes matters worse is he was definitively crushed by a stormtrooper despite the fact he wielded the Lightsaber. This is the same custodial piece of shit that grazed Kylo's shoulder in combat. Before you say well he was injured by Chewie's shot let me stop you. Of course he was but it didn't limit his movement to the point this noob with a Lightsaber got into the proximity of his deltoid region. Fiction is all over the map and fan calcing feats is beyond ridiculous and a waste of time.

Finn is implied in outside sources to be an excellent Stormtrooper tbh.

Kylo was toying with Finn and had him on his *** in just one blow, he could have finished him but just swung his lightsaber around as if to mock him. The minute he was hit, he ended the fight instantly, implying he could have done it at any time, which seems true considering he had Finn on the ground in just one blow at the beginning.

Another thing, I'm still not getting the logic of people thinking Storms are terrible, this makes 0 sense from a Universe perspective.

Originally posted by The Merchant
Finn is implied in outside sources to be an excellent Stormtrooper tbh. In the film he's clumsy, cowardly and unsure of himself. I'm not saying he's a pile of shit I'm saying based off how posters argue the force works he shouldn't be able to injure Kylo Ren. The stormtrooper beating his ass really lowered his stock and thereby Kylo's. I get that his training isn't complete and expect him to be much more formidable in the next film but that showing even made me sick.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Kylo was toying with Finn and had him on his *** in just one blow, he could have finished him but just swung his lightsaber around as if to mock him. The minute he was hit, he ended the fight instantly, implying he could have done it at any time, which seems true considering he had Finn on the ground in just one blow at the beginning.

Another thing, I'm still not getting the logic of people thinking Storms are terrible, this makes 0 sense from a Universe perspective. The storms countless failures in the films and in the animated series. Granted they were far more competent in this film by the opening scene alone but Kylo should absolutely maul an inexperienced guy in a Lightsaber fight. The grazing was bad.

He got shot and was mentally unstable that in the novel even said he wasn't able to use his force powers normally, plus the bowcaster also weakened him. Not to mention that Bowcaster flung stormtroopers across the sky while he withstood it in place. Despite that he was able to send Rey flying several feet in the air. Although that more than likely hampered him more since he used a good amount of his reserves.

Originally posted by The Merchant
He got shot and was mentally unstable that in the novel even said he wasn't able to use his force powers normally, plus the bowcaster also weakened him. Not to mention that Bowcaster flung stormtroopers across the sky while he withstood it in place. Despite that he was able to send Rey flying several feet in the air. Although that more than likely hampered him more since he used a good amount of his reserves. I already noted the injury but as I said his mobility and movement wasn't seriously affected at that point. Hell, even with the shoulder grazing he still fought on until Rey's oneness moment. At certain times the bowcaster flung and certain times it didn't fling other storms. Fiction. Inconsistent.

The guy had to constantly bash his side to be able to suppress the pain and again he also wasn't mentally stable either. Finn hitting him was luck on his part and that wouldn't have happened if he fought the guy any earlier point in the movie. Kylo would have just stunned him and possibly Rey at the same time. The bowcaster always brought the troopers off their feet at the very least.

Originally posted by quanchi112
The storms countless failures in the films and in the animated series. Granted they were far more competent in this film by the opening scene alone but Kylo should absolutely maul an inexperienced guy in a Lightsaber fight. The grazing was bad.

Except the Storms failed all of....what...1 time in the films? With heavy circumstances?

Except Kylo did maul Finn, he had him on the ground right in the beginning of the fight, let him get up, then casually dodged Finn's attacks, twirling his lightsaber, treating Finn as a joke and then ended the fight after getting grazed.

Anyway, me thinks we be treading off topic here.

Originally posted by The Merchant
The guy had to constantly bash his side to be able to suppress the pain and again he also wasn't mentally stable either. Finn hitting him was luck on his part and that wouldn't have happened if he fought the guy any earlier point in the movie. Kylo would have just stunned him and possibly Rey at the same time. The bowcaster always brought the troopers off their feet at the very least. He suppressed the pain or used it as motivation. Says you. All we have are the film facts so he did injure him. The point is the bowcaster didn't always hit with the same impressive force. The sooner fans realize things don't have to add up the easier it gets.

It is true the Avenger was using point defense weapons. The Falcon would have easily went down to a HTL.

Impulse speeds vary widely in Trek but it's easily as fast as Star Wars sublight.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Except the Storms failed all of....what...1 time in the films? With heavy circumstances?

Except Kylo did maul Finn, he had him on the ground right in the beginning of the fight, let him get up, then casually dodged Finn's attacks, twirling his lightsaber, treating Finn as a joke and then ended the fight after getting grazed.

Anyway, me thinks we be treading off topic here. 1 time ? Are you kidding me ? Massive failures all over the place. Couldn't track Han and bring him in without Vader employing bounty hunters and treachery. Failed protecting two Death Stars. Failed on endor. I mean for ****s sake you had ewoks throwing stones on their heads.

Ren was obviously his superior but the shoulder graze with Finn's film showings still haunt me to this day.

The novel specifically said he suppressed it, the motivation thing is made up. So you think if Finn went up against Kylo earlier in the movie he would have been able to graze him? That's fine, the point is it still knocked people off its feet, something that didn't happen with Kylo. Another thing is in the Novelization Kylo also was able to deflect lightsaber strikes with his bare hands using nearly no force energies against Rey.

Originally posted by The Merchant
The novel specifically said he suppressed it, the motivation thing is made up. So you think if Finn went up against Kylo earlier in the movie he would have been able to graze him? That's fine, the point is it still knocked people off its feet, something that didn't happen with Kylo. Another thing is in the Novelization Kylo also was able to deflect lightsaber strikes with his bare hands using nearly no force energies against Rey. I didn't read the novel and just surmised it could be motivational. I am not sure it knocked all of its victims off their feet. I may check this out now on my ps4 just to see. See in the novel that tells things we didn't see since his Lightsaber strikes were what deflected the blasts not his hands.

Originally posted by quanchi112
1 time ? Are you kidding me ? Massive failures all over the place. Couldn't track Han and bring him in without Vader employing bounty hunters and treachery. Failed protecting two Death Stars. Failed on endor. I mean for ****s sake you had ewoks throwing stones on their heads.

Ren was obviously his superior but the shoulder graze with Finn's film showings still haunt me to this day.

Except none of those examples you said, had anything to do with Storms, that's the Imperial Navy which even then they weren't bad. The only example listed, is the Endor one, but again...heavy circumstances were against them.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Except none of those examples you said, had anything to do with Storms, that's the Imperial Navy which even then they weren't bad. The only example listed, is the Endor one, but again...heavy circumstances were against them. Han came up with some shitty plan to easily fool the dimwits. As I said it doesn't get any worse than a primitive midget based species tossing rocks onto their heads and koing them.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Han came up with some shitty plan to easily fool the dimwits. As I said it doesn't get any worse than a primitive midget based species tossing rocks onto their heads and koing them.

Who says they were KO'd? All we did was see them get hit and fall down before it changed scenes.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Who says they were KO'd? All we did was see them get hit and fall down before it changed scenes. Not all but it was a really bad showing nonetheless. Primitive hairy midgets owned them.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Not all but it was a really bad showing nonetheless. Primitive hairy midgets owned them.

With an AT-ST supporting them...which they didn't have the means to take out.

Anyway this is veering off topic, so just gonna end it here.

Dreadnaught FTW. Faster,more agile and packing heavy firepower.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
With an AT-ST supporting them...which they didn't have the means to take out.

Anyway this is veering off topic, so just gonna end it here. The ewoks took other At-Sts out.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Because it's smart to destroy something that they are trying to capture alive?...

Sorry that wont work as a fact based claim unless you can prove the turbo lasers were scaled back.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Sorry that wont work as a fact based claim unless you can prove the turbo lasers were scaled back.

Yeah....it won't work despite multiple times Vader was wanting the ship and the crew alive...it's common sense that the Star Destroyer crew wouldn't use full turbolaser blasts.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Yeah....it won't work despite multiple times Vader was wanting the ship and the crew alive...it's common sense that the Star Destroyer crew wouldn't use full turbolaser blasts. So we ignore Han's dialogue while his ship was being attacked and what would happen if they took a few more shots.

Originally posted by The Merchant
The guy had to constantly bash his side to be able to suppress the pain and again he also wasn't mentally stable either. Finn hitting him was luck on his part and that wouldn't have happened if he fought the guy any earlier point in the movie. Kylo would have just stunned him and possibly Rey at the same time. The bowcaster always brought the troopers off their feet at the very least. Rewatch the Chewie they just killed my best friend scene. He shoots multiple Stormtroopers who don't leave their feet.

So we are all in agreement that the USS Vengeance wins. Win another one for the Kelvin.

Originally posted by quanchi112
So we ignore Han's dialogue while his ship was being attacked and what would happen if they took a few more shots.

He ran off

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
He ran off Another one bites the dust.

No I just don't care anymore. Fact is Vader wanted the ship and it's crew alive, he said as much twice within the movie. So....doesn't matter what the others think(which was 3PO who was such a dramatic droid) or said because they didn't know what was going to happen, how could they?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
But the scariest thing is that, despite your inability to say anything of note, you don't recognize that you're stupid - you proudly boast about "winning" debates and "crushing" your enemies - you actually think you're a competent debater.


You're welcome.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
No I just don't care anymore. Fact is Vader wanted the ship and it's crew alive, he said as much twice within the movie. So....doesn't matter what the others think or said because they didn't know what was going to happen, how could they? They were firing and weren't lying about the ramifications from continued fire on the pile of shit we call the Millenium Falcon. Do you think Han's comments were meant to deceive the audience ?

Originally posted by quanchi112
They were firing and weren't lying about the ramifications from continued fire on the pile of shit we call the Millenium Falcon. Do you think Han's comments were meant to deceive the audience ?

Han said nothing about his ship other than the hyperdrive not working, 3PO was the only one freaking out about if they took another hit they were done for...but he's hardly reliable given he's overly dramatic and didn't know what Vader wanted.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Han said nothing about his ship other than the hyperdrive not working, 3PO was the only one freaking out about if they took another hit they were done for...but he's hardly reliable given he's overly dramatic and didn't know what Vader wanted. So his comments weren't meant to be taken seriously. When were the lasers stated as being lowered in terms of fire before hitting the MF ?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
quanchi, if your response to people requesting that you actually explain why the figures are bunk beyond just calling them "imaginary" and "made up" is to just advertise your "battle dome", you should just leave and come back when you want to actually debate. Nobody expects you to have something so fantastic in store that they'd be engrossed or left salivating by your tap dancing.

Your complaing about tap dancing when you straight up left the fight.

Originally posted by quanchi112
So his comments weren't meant to be taken seriously. When were the lasers stated as being lowered in terms of fire before hitting the MF ?

Jeez, does it have to be stated each time someone goes to the bathroom too? Seriously?

Vader wants the Falcon right?....Common sense would tell anyone, that under orders from Vader, they were to not destroy the ship and thus...they wouldn't blast it with full powered turbolasers.

So the tie bombers were holding back as well?

TIE bombers didn't even engage the Falcon.

Originally posted by Nai
You're welcome. Says the nerd who made countless claims he failed to prove. Speculative, biased nonsense. If you make the claim the onus is on you to prove it not for me to disprove it. Debating 101.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
TIE bombers didn't even engage the Falcon.

You must be joking, go watch the god damn movie son.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Jeez, does it have to be stated each time someone goes to the bathroom too? Seriously?

Vader wants the Falcon right?....Common sense would tell anyone, that under orders from Vader, they were to not destroy the ship and thus...they wouldn't blast it with full powered turbolasers. The blasts were clearly doing damage and you can't prove how much they were lowered or even that they were lowered at all. It's about what you can prove and it goes against the dialogue of the scene.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
You must be joking, go watch the god damn movie son.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
You must be joking, go watch the god damn movie son.

I did. The only time TIE bombers were even on scene, was dropping bombs on asteroids(which would be to flush them out of hiding), they never engaged the Falcon.

Yea so they must have been holding their bombs back right?

Originally posted by quanchi112
The blasts were clearly doing damage and you can't prove how much they were lowered or even that they were lowered at all. It's about what you can prove and it goes against the dialogue of the scene.

Yeah they were doing damage, did I say they weren't? No.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Yea so they must have been holding their bombs back right?

No...I don't know why you're bringing this up, the bombers never engaged the Falcon.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Yeah they were doing damage, did I say they weren't? No. So you can't prove this claim or to what degree the lasers were less intensified.

Originally posted by quanchi112
So you can't prove this claim or to what degree the lasers were less intensified.

Aside from common sense and dialogue stated by Vader he wanted them alive?

No, but then I don't need to have every little detail thrown out.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Aside from common sense and dialogue stated by Vader he wanted them alive?

No, but then I don't need to have every little detail thrown out. Iy is ironic when I say common sense somehow it isn't so common but here it is. We can tell by the suspense of the scene and the dialogue IMO. There's no direct evidence or anything alluding to let's lessen the intensity of our weapons here. I see your point but it isn't anything you can prove. So we go by what we know. The Destroyer fired upon the MF and it took multiple shots without significant damage.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
No...I don't know why you're bringing this up, the bombers never engaged the Falcon.

Stupidity like this is almost unacceptable, they were dropping bombs to hit the falcon.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Iy is ironic when I say common sense somehow it isn't so common but here it is. We can tell by the suspense of the scene and the dialogue IMO. There's no direct evidence or anything alluding to let's lessen the intensity of our weapons here. I see your point but it isn't anything you can prove. So we go by what we know. The Destroyer fired upon the MF and it took multiple shots without significant damage.

Because of the Deflector shields. 3PO says as much.

"Sir we've just lost the main rear deflector shield! One more direct hit on the back quadrant and were done for!"

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Because of the Deflector shields. 3PO says as much.

"Sir we've just lost the rear deflector shield! One more hit on the back quadrant and were done for!" Yes, as I said the shields from a much weaker ship can withstand blasts from much more powerful and larger ships without taking significant damage. That isn't the case in Star Trek when a superior ship such as the Narada or the Vengeance starts firing on the Enterprise. That's always been my point. Shit gets ****ed up really fast.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Because of the Deflector shields. 3PO says as much.

"Sir we've just lost the main rear deflector shield! One more direct hit on the back quadrant and were done for!"

I think you just ruined your own argument

Except why then, in ANH were TIE fighters able to cause damage to the Falcon despite the shields being up? TIE Fighters pack much less punch than an ISD, you'd agree on that right? Ok then.

So this just furthers shows that if a TIE fighter can break through the Falcon's shields and cause damage, then a full powered Turbolaser shot would have punched right through the shield and destroy the Falcon.

Yet...the ISD didn't do that.

Semantics. Comparing the Dreadnaught shields to the aged and falling apart falcon is just laughable. The falcon is held together because it's a plot device vital to the story.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Except why then, in ANH were TIE fighters able to cause damage to the Falcon despite the shields being up? TIE Fighters pack much less punch than an ISD, you'd agree on that right? Ok then.

So this just furthers shows that if a TIE fighter can break through the Falcon's shields and cause damage, then a full powered Turbolaser shot would have punched right through the shield and destroy the Falcon.

Yet...the ISD didn't do that. I agree a tie fighter can get through the shields as can a star destroyer but it isn't nigh instantaneous like it is when the big bad ships in Star Trek start firing. The big bad ships in two films of Trek would skull **** the imperial ships. The only advantage the empire ever had was numbers but due to Star Trek Beyond that advantage is going away. I'm going based off what we see on screen not theoretically.

Except I really could care less about this battle at hand. But if you wanna believe that despite Vader wanting the Falcon and its crew alive and the officers ignoring such orders and blasting the Falcon with high turbolaser shots, then be my guest. I'm done here.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Semantics. Comparing the Dreadnaught shields to the aged and falling apart falcon is just laughable. The falcon is held together because it's a plot device vital to the story. Yeah, the Falcon isn't some top of the line ship it's the shitty ship the heroes have to pilot through situations due to facing overwhelming odds. It's even referred to as basically shit in the Force Awakens in terms of quality ships.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Except I really could care less about this battle at hand. But if you wanna believe that despite Vader wanting the Falcon and its crew alive and the officers ignoring such orders and blasting the Falcon with high turbolaser shots, then be my guest. I'm done here. That's irrelevant to the point you can't prove the lasers were less intensified or even lowered at all. But yes let's just agree the Vengeance wins and be done with this thread.

Imagine what the Vengeance would do to Star Wars fighters with its rapid fire phasers.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Except I really could care less about this battle at hand. But if you wanna believe that despite Vader wanting the Falcon and its crew alive and the officers ignoring such orders and blasting the Falcon with high turbolaser shots, then be my guest. I'm done here.

Go ahead and explain how a turbo laser is taking out the Dreadnaught that can fight in warp speed with shields up.

Originally posted by playa1258
Imagine what the Vengeance would do to Star Wars fighters with its rapid fire phasers. Just pummel and decimate them. Star Wars fans like Nai have convinced themselves with nerd calculations that can't be proven that this isn't the case. Let's ignore the portrayals and calc out those damn asteroids. That will give me the answers I seek.

I have absolutely no problem with this thread, but why am I the one that gets caught by Bada for making crossover threads? Who's reporting me mmm

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I have absolutely no problem with this thread, but why am I the one that gets caught by Bada for making crossover threads? Who's reporting me mmm People really report you ? For ****s sake the board is dying and we don't need nerd drama curbing activity.

I mean, I've been caught like 3 times in the past few weeks alone on the crossover threads. And one time it wasn't even a crossover thread, just me going off topic and arguing another subject. Prior to these incidents, not once have I been banned or even reprimanded by a mod. Hell, I may be getting perm banned or at least banned for like a couple of weeks on July 1st.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I mean, I've been caught like 3 times in the past few weeks alone on the crossover threads. And one time it wasn't even a crossover thread, just me going off topic and arguing another subject. Prior to these incidents, not once have I been banned or even reprimanded by a mod. Hell, I may be getting perm banned or at least banned for like a couple of weeks on July 1st. I have no idea and didn't know this was even semi series. Why would anyone ban you on July 1 ?

Originally posted by Badabing
Very good. I will wait until July to start the bans.

I don't know, man.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I don't know, man. He is joking.

I hope he is.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I hope he is. If he isn't it was nice knowing you.

I am become death. I'm sure I'll be fine.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I am become death. I'm sure I'll be fine. Post from the afterlife.

Oh I will. Though again, perhaps the raptor's claw will merely strike my heel, and not my heart.

Originally posted by quanchi112
People really report you ? For ****s sake the board is dying and we don't need nerd drama curbing activity.

https://s31.postimg.org/ikf4rhoff/IMG_0771.png

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Oh I will. Though again, perhaps the raptor's claw will merely strike my heel, and not my heart. You have to befriend the raptor. Trust me it isn't easy he's a savage dinosaur but it can be done. There is hope. Pet him often.

/strokes the raptor's scaly mane

Originally posted by quanchi112
Says the nerd who made countless claims he failed to prove. Speculative, biased nonsense. If you make the claim the onus is on you to prove it not for me to disprove it. Debating 101.

Pardon me, Sir.
I did present proof for my claims. Instead of refuting it, you basically said "No." and that was that. I'm very sorry that you are lacking the mental faculties in order to understand physics, math or just stuff happening on a screen in front of you. But given that this is the case, you may want to refrain from "debates", because, apparently, you're inable to contribute anything to them and, hence, nobody appreciates your participation.


Originally posted by quanchi112
Iy is ironic when I say common sense somehow it isn't so common but here it is. We can tell by the suspense of the scene and the dialogue IMO. There's no direct evidence or anything alluding to let's lessen the intensity of our weapons here. I see your point but it isn't anything you can prove. So we go by what we know. The Destroyer fired upon the MF and it took multiple shots without significant damage.

You are correct, Sir.
The Star Destroyer did not lower the firepower of the weapons, that are shown to easily vaporize asteroids the size of the Falcon, when firing at the Falcon. Ergo the Falcon must have pretty nice shieldings in order to tank that kind of firepower.

Arguing in circles starts in 3, 2, 1...

Warp speed photon torpedo passby FTW.

The Vengeance can fight at warp speed. Vengeance via speed blitz.

Originally posted by Nai
Pardon me, Sir.
I did present proof for my claims. Instead of refuting it, you basically said "No." and that was that. I'm very sorry that you are lacking the mental faculties in order to understand physics, math or just stuff happening on a screen in front of you. But given that this is the case, you may want to refrain from "debates", because, apparently, you're inable to contribute anything to them and, hence, nobody appreciates your participation.




You are correct, Sir.
The Star Destroyer did not lower the firepower of the weapons, that are shown to easily vaporize asteroids the size of the Falcon, when firing at the Falcon. Ergo the Falcon must have pretty nice shieldings in order to tank that kind of firepower.

Arguing in circles starts in 3, 2, 1... You gave no official numbers or anything backed by an official source. You're that nerd whose bibliography page would be references to yourself since you couldn't list one credible source to back your calc'd feats.

Asteroids also obliterated asteroids. What's funny is this shows asteroids can do more damage to a ship than the destroyers pathetic weaponry.

So the Star Destroyer loses

The Star Wars side has conceded. It's over.

Maybe Nai will grow a spine and come back. Stranger things have happened.

Nai ran off like Bardock did

Originally posted by quanchi112
You gave no official numbers or anything backed by an official source.


Neither did you. So what?

I was pointing out facts observeable from the movies and drawing conclusion from those. That you are incapable of following that, is not my problem. You need to refute my reasoning, instead of saying "No. Nerd math." in oder to make a point.

And since you rule out sources not being the movies in general, citing the overwhelming amount of sources (Technical Commentaries, the "Slave Ship" novel etc.) is pretty much pointless, isn't it?



This is ridiculous.
So let's see: One kilometer wide explosions generated by Star Wars weapons are, somehow, not an indicator for their power, when compared to other weaponary that generates similar explosions in space (Nuclear devices in the megaton category). Reason given: None.

Neither is the instant vaporization of rather massive asteroids any indication of their power. Reason given: None.



Yes. Those rather large asteroids would impact on others with power equivalent of a small nuclear bomb unleashed upon impact. Speed + mass = power. Maybe you shouldn't have dropped out of school after 4th grade.



Really? After three volleys from a single Star Destroyer, the Falcon is losing one deflector shield in ANH. Which is, quite literally, a ten second "assault" on the ship with the Star Destroyers point defense (light) weapons. The same Falcon flies through an asteroid field with rather large asteroids impacting on its shield, while nothing happens. And it does that for several minutes.

That Han even makes the choice of flying into the asteroid field rather than taking it up with the Star Destroyers, should tell you what he thought was the greater threat to his ship.

Go ahead and explain how the star destroyer hit the vengeance while its at warp speeds.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Go ahead and explain how the star destroyer hit the vengeance while its at warp speeds.

You could also ask how the Vengeance does hit the Star Destroyer while it is in Hyperspace, which makes just as much sense.

Star Trek ships can't engage targets on warp speeds when said targets are not on warp speed themselves, because they would just be out of weapon range before they could even fire on a (relatively) stationary target going with faster-than-light speed.

I can't believe, that I actually have to explain that...

Prove it

Originally posted by Nai
Neither did you. So what?

I was pointing out facts observeable from the movies and drawing conclusion from those. That you are incapable of following that, is not my problem. You need to refute my reasoning, instead of saying "No. Nerd math." in oder to make a point.

And since you rule out sources not being the movies in general, citing the overwhelming amount of sources (Technical Commentaries, the "Slave Ship" novel etc.) is pretty much pointless, isn't it?



This is ridiculous.
So let's see: One kilometer wide explosions generated by Star Wars weapons are, somehow, not an indicator for their power, when compared to other weaponary that generates similar explosions in space (Nuclear devices in the megaton category). Reason given: None.

Neither is the instant vaporization of rather massive asteroids any indication of their power. Reason given: None.



Yes. Those rather large asteroids would impact on others with power equivalent of a small nuclear bomb unleashed upon impact. Speed + mass = power. Maybe you shouldn't have dropped out of school after 4th grade.



Really? After three volleys from a single Star Destroyer, the Falcon is losing one deflector shield in ANH. Which is, quite literally, a ten second "assault" on the ship with the Star Destroyers point defense (light) weapons. The same Falcon flies through an asteroid field with rather large asteroids impacting on its shield, while nothing happens. And it does that for several minutes.

That Han even makes the choice of flying into the asteroid field rather than taking it up with the Star Destroyers, should tell you what he thought was the greater threat to his ship. You made the claim. The onus is on for you to back your claim not for me to disprove your theory.


You weren't pointing out facts you were assuming your numbers were facts. They aren't. You can assume all you want but if you can't prove it then you have shit. That's just the reality of debating. Stick to what you can prove not what you can assume as a fact.


You see your conclusion > analysis > evidence as a biased fan. You'll try anything to reach your biased conclusion which isn't being objective. Why can't you see that ?

Novels are out since the novels contradict the movie but the official site or anything in the DVD special features is fair game IMO.

It is an inconsistency in fiction just as collateral damage isn't always indicative of power. We see explosions that destroy galaxies by one character in a story and the same character all out in another story fail to destroy a city block. The same thing with Star Wars explosions and chewies weapon as a specific example. We see the blasts cause explosions and knock people considerably far back off their feet in some scenes and in other scenes not have the same concussive force. It's inconsistent and I feel the portrayal is what ultimately matters and the comparison to other star wars blasters. It's obviously more powerful than the blasters by far but the explosions and the surface area of the explosions aren't consistent so who the **** cares.

You fail to look at the other logical assumption that that's the best the special effects could do and that other asteroids complete obliterated other asteroids on impact. You do not see comic book debaters analyzing the size and the weight of cars Peter Parker tosses in debaters because it's generally a waste of time and greatly varies showing to showing. For one thing we don't know the weight and size and can only speculate anyways and it means **** all when he matches up against a character like the Hulk who is over 1,000 times strongly easily. That doesn't mean Spiderman can't beat the Hulk and that we should only analyze the feats.

It is special effects not some official Star Wars guy saying yes this makes sense given the fictional universe which supports the force. Everything must add up and we need to calculate the force of the impact and apply it on all Star Wars related events because we must remain consistent in these films intended for kids you biased dipshit.


I'll watch this scene again so I can determine how many asteroids hit the MF and comment on that afterwards. With regards to the star destroyer the portrayal is quite clear that the star destroyer is one of the empire's finest weapons/ships and they are combat wise leaps and bounds superior to the MF. MF shouldn't last that long against such a superior ship upon direct fire. In the trek films it was made known the enterprise was completely inadequate with regards to withstanding an assault from the Narada or the Vengeance.

The star destroyer was actively targeting the ship the asteroids weren't and what's even better was the asteroids would deter any ships from going into one whether it be an Imperial ship or the MF.

Nai, you can't run. You can't hide. I will find you wherever you go. I will search the vast Internet to complete my mission of your complete annihilation.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Prove it

No, Sir. I'm not going to prove a negative. It is your task to prove, that they can engage targets that aren't in warp speed while they are on warp speed themselves, and since that never happened in the entirety of Star Trek, they can't. And ffs: If you are traveling with a speed of 300,000 km/s+, you just can't fire at a near stationary target, because you would be out of your own weapon range, before even trying to fire. Not to mention, that there is - quite obviously - the problem of the warp drive "warping" space-time around the ship, which would lead to problems to interact with object that are still in the normal space-time.

@Dumbchi0815
Originally posted by Dumbchi0815
You made the claim. The onus is on for you to back your claim not for me to disprove your theory.


What "claim" are you even talking about?



I've presented visual evidence, that the Executor is hit with something that generated an explosion more than a kilometer in diameter in outer space. I further linked you to an official gouvernment source describing the test of nuclear weapons in outer space, leading to my conclusions regarding firepower. Wether you are agreeing with the "nerd math" or not, is entirely irrelevant, because the size of the explosion alone indicates firepower far beyond anything ever seen in Star Trek.



Why can't you see that applying physics is not "my" conclusions, analysis, evidence, but a mere transfer of stuff shown on screen into real-life terms? That you have a problem with that, because Star Wars shits on Star Trek in that regard is, once again, not my problem. And since you are inable to counter any of "my" conclusions, analysis or evidence, but instead just go "Nope." also doesn't look as if you had an argument.



As I thought: Deliberate cherrypicking out of the canon source material from the Star Wars side in an attempt to downtalk Star Wars. The two TV shows "Rebels" and "The Clone Wars" are absolute canon even under the Disney rule.

LTZFTH7t0-8

2:40 onwards. Dropped by a Star Fighter. Boom.

HAALYAhKSGY

0:55 - 0:58 Droid Starfighters small weapons causing massive explosions.

2:38 - 2:44 more massive explosions caused by single hits of turbolaser fire.

This is all absolute canon.



You use your pitty excuses about "inconsistent portrayals" to mask your attempt to downtalk Star Wars. Let us face the facts here: If portrayals within a work of fiction do differ from eachother, "suspension of disbelief" demands that we first search and in universe explanation for that. That Chewie's bowcaster, with the last shot he fires, doesn't seem to do the damage it does with all other shots before could either be because the power-cell is empty (which would explain why he doesn't shoot a second time to kill Kylo) or Kylo was wearing some form of armor or he was attempting to protect himself with the force, blocking some part of the blast. What we do not do is take that singlular showing to attempt and talk down the weapon itself, which is what you do.

Using that logic on Star Trek would mean, that photon torpedos never hit their targets (because one of the Narada, the most advanced ship seen in Star Trek, does miss and an entire salvo of torpedos launched is easily intercepted by the Enterprise later). Does that sound reasonable for you?

Furthermore, you haven't shown how the explosions in the space-battles are "inconsistant" at all, because - gosh - they aren't.

vT7vD8uAGEQ

1:11 - 1:15 Beam weapon out of the Venator class hangar destroys the enemy ship in a rather huge explosion.

lchA-lwqrPw

Broadside exchange of two ships far weaker than a Star Destroyer, happening after hours of space battle (shields probably gone completely) and even then their armor tanks quite a lot of damage, provided the Venator-class vessel (pre Star Destroyer design) survives this easily. And even here, most of the shots fired come from the smaller guns mounted at the side of the ship. And even those do generate explosions with a diameter of several dozen meters compareable to Star Trek photon torpedos. But not only can those ships tank repeated hits of weapons with that kind of firepower (as seen), they would fire that in far faster succession and with far more amunition than any Star Trek vessel.



Pardon me.
Where is that a logical assumption? So the same special-effects department that is involved in - wait a second - almost all movies made in Hollywood from 1977 onwards (ILM), can't come up with better effects for the Special Edition of the movie, released in 1997? Seriously? That is a "logical assumption" in the world of Quanchi?
And the comic book quip is just another red harring. Irrelevant missdirection because you still don't have an argument.



Oh, really? Everything must add up?

We can go on Han Solo's comment, when he first comes across the remains of Alderaan: He claims that it would need thousands of ships to do something like that. Of course, 1/1000 of the Death Stars firepower for every Imperial ship would still mean that they would completely destroy any Star Trek ship with ease.

We could with the ANH briefing scene, before the Rebels attack the Death Star, General Dodonna mentions that the Death Star has the firepowerf of half the Imperial Starfleet. Even assuming that the Imperial Starfleet has millions of ships, even one millionth of the Death Stars demonstrated firepower would totally put any Star Trek ship to shame.

And yes. With that statements it's pretty obvious, that those ships dish out shots in the megaton department at the very least, where you have failed to provided anything to contradict that. So. I guess I accept your concession and move on.



Yes. This is why the MF is forced to flee after 10 seconds of light weapon fire from a Star Destroyer in ANH (losing a deflector shield already). And you may want to consider that the MF is heavily modified:



Did you, by chance, miss the fact that the Imperials manouver their ships into the asteroid field (including the city sized Executor) and, after flying through that asteroid field for hours (or even days?) they lose one ship by constant asteroid bombardment, with a particular unlucky and massive hit destroying the bridge?

Actually Nai. Dodonna says the DS has firepower greater than half the starfleet.

Lol at the star destroyer not being able to go light speed. Nai you really lost your god damn mind.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Lol at the star destroyer not being able to go light speed. Nai you really lost your god damn mind.

Are you mentally handicapped or are you deliberately missrepresenting my argument?

In order to archive Faster than Light (FTL) travel speed, Star Wars ships go into hyperspace, which is an alternate dimension only affected by objects of huge mass in "real space" (suns, black holes and the like). So there won't be any interaction between the Dreadnought and the Star Destroyer on "light speed". The Dreadnought would need to attack a Star Destroyer moving in "real space", while on FTL speed itself - which it can't do.

Originally posted by Nai
Are you mentally handicapped or are you deliberately missrepresenting my argument?

If you've read any of his material over in the Gen. Discussion forum, this shouldn't be a question.

Originally posted by Nai
Are you mentally handicapped or are you deliberately missrepresenting my argument?

In order to archive Faster than Light (FTL) travel speed, Star Wars ships go into hyperspace, which is an alternate dimension only affected by objects of huge mass in "real space" (suns, black holes and the like). So there won't be any interaction between the Dreadnought and the Star Destroyer on "light speed". The Dreadnought would need to attack a Star Destroyer moving in "real space", while on FTL speed itself - which it can't do.



Dude you realize you just proved your own arguement wrong. It's like you don't even know what words mean.

But yes I did misrepresent your arguement just to see you go off the deep end. As Vadar would say "Aw to easy."

Originally posted by Nai
No, Sir. I'm not going to prove a negative. It is your task to prove, that they can engage targets that aren't in warp speed while they are on warp speed themselves, and since that never happened in the entirety of Star Trek, they can't. And ffs: If you are traveling with a speed of 300,000 km/s+, you just can't fire at a near stationary target, because you would be out of your own weapon range, before even trying to fire. Not to mention, that there is - quite obviously - the problem of the warp drive "warping" space-time around the ship, which would lead to problems to interact with object that are still in the normal space-time.

@Dumbchi0815


What "claim" are you even talking about?



I've presented visual evidence, that the Executor is hit with something that generated an explosion more than a kilometer in diameter in outer space. I further linked you to an official gouvernment source describing the test of nuclear weapons in outer space, leading to my conclusions regarding firepower. Wether you are agreeing with the "nerd math" or not, is entirely irrelevant, because the size of the explosion alone indicates firepower far beyond anything ever seen in Star Trek.



Why can't you see that applying physics is not "my" conclusions, analysis, evidence, but a mere transfer of stuff shown on screen into real-life terms? That you have a problem with that, because Star Wars shits on Star Trek in that regard is, once again, not my problem. And since you are inable to counter any of "my" conclusions, analysis or evidence, but instead just go "Nope." also doesn't look as if you had an argument.



As I thought: Deliberate cherrypicking out of the canon source material from the Star Wars side in an attempt to downtalk Star Wars. The two TV shows "Rebels" and "The Clone Wars" are absolute canon even under the Disney rule.

LTZFTH7t0-8

2:40 onwards. Dropped by a Star Fighter. Boom.

HAALYAhKSGY

0:55 - 0:58 Droid Starfighters small weapons causing massive explosions.

2:38 - 2:44 more massive explosions caused by single hits of turbolaser fire.

This is all absolute canon.



You use your pitty excuses about "inconsistent portrayals" to mask your attempt to downtalk Star Wars. Let us face the facts here: If portrayals within a work of fiction do differ from eachother, "suspension of disbelief" demands that we first search and in universe explanation for that. That Chewie's bowcaster, with the last shot he fires, doesn't seem to do the damage it does with all other shots before could either be because the power-cell is empty (which would explain why he doesn't shoot a second time to kill Kylo) or Kylo was wearing some form of armor or he was attempting to protect himself with the force, blocking some part of the blast. What we do not do is take that singlular showing to attempt and talk down the weapon itself, which is what you do.

Using that logic on Star Trek would mean, that photon torpedos never hit their targets (because one of the Narada, the most advanced ship seen in Star Trek, does miss and an entire salvo of torpedos launched is easily intercepted by the Enterprise later). Does that sound reasonable for you?

Furthermore, you haven't shown how the explosions in the space-battles are "inconsistant" at all, because - gosh - they aren't.

vT7vD8uAGEQ

1:11 - 1:15 Beam weapon out of the Venator class hangar destroys the enemy ship in a rather huge explosion.

lchA-lwqrPw

Broadside exchange of two ships far weaker than a Star Destroyer, happening after hours of space battle (shields probably gone completely) and even then their armor tanks quite a lot of damage, provided the Venator-class vessel (pre Star Destroyer design) survives this easily. And even here, most of the shots fired come from the smaller guns mounted at the side of the ship. And even those do generate explosions with a diameter of several dozen meters compareable to Star Trek photon torpedos. But not only can those ships tank ].



Oh, really? Everything must add up?

We can go on Han Solo's comment, when h fire from a Star Destroyer in ANH (losing a deflector shield already). And you may want to consider that the MF is



Did you, by chance, miss the fact that the Imperials manouver their ships into the asteroid field (including the city sized Executor) and, after flying through that asteroid field for hours (or even days?) they lose one ship by constant asteroid bombardment, with a particular unlucky and massive hit destroying the bridge? Your claims of the destructive power and every over exaggeration you have claimed thus far. I have a feeling plenty more are coming this way.

You have speculated about the area being one kilometer without any factual proof as the source for your beliefs. Then what's worse is you ramble on about real life weaponry and try to create a false parallel between the two. That is simply absurd.

Oh can't I rebut you now ? Since when ? You haven't proven your claims and continue to pound your chest in some primitive caveman manner. Ok since I am not looking for any YouTube videos to highlight the Star Wars pathetic MF I'll just time stamp it.

Around 35 minutes into the ESB we see Han Solo using the ships guns to fire on a wintery storm trooper. It doesn't do anything impressive by any means. Downright pathetic. We then flash forward to episode 7 and we see the MF easily take out a tie fighter with a shot to the wing. Nothing impressive at all and these ships easily go down. We see Dameron's rebel ship was easily taken out via the Stormtroopers blasts. I am not talking about the bigger guns which completely destroyed it I am referring to the standard weaponry which critically damaged it.

Films only. Ops are meant to be followed not ignored when you want to show your bias.

So now you're making up excuses to explain away why Chewie didn't fire again. You don't have anything to support this blatant fanboyism. What's worse we see Chewie shoot no more than a second or two later at the Stormtroopers who were going to attack him since he just fired on their commander. For ****s sake the dishonesty if you fanboys. What I relish in is the fact you're too stupid to even make a compelling argument and have to resort to blatant lies to cover up your insanity.

So now you pretend there's maybe armor under their despite nothing to support this. It's always the same with you people. Excuses, baseless claims, and made up numbers to support your brand. The irony is you call yourself an anti fanboy when you're as fanatical as they come.

I used the entire scene. It wasn't just one blast. The point is despite the concussive power of the blasts they don't do massive damage to the bodies like say the Boolean gun as evidenced by the shot to Kylo Ren. We don't see a massive difference in visceral damage done to the Stormtroopers when comparing to the standard blasters. We just see in certain scenes a difference in concussive force.

That just means the torpedoes don't always hit their targets due to the circumstances of the situation.

We see massive explosions in Trek as well especially when the USS Kelvin collides with the Narada. The difference is unlike in Star Wars when inferior ships explode and collide they don't cause significant damage like in Trek. I've always maintained this and it's routinely supported. Thanks.

Oh for ****s sake we see the much smaller ships in these clips take out their shield generators rather easily. These same smaller ships are easily damaged by the smaller and really not powerful buzz droids. But your logic and fanatical mind will always try to support anything in star wars is somehow more powerful simply for being associated with Star Wars.



We see they didn't have the definition back then as they do now. It simply came across as more compelling and easier to give off the impression the object was completely destroyed. No, it isn't a red herring these kinds of examples are found all throughout fiction as these pieces of work come from the imagination not some kind of reality where things need to add up. You can ignore the countless examples of the inconsistencies to support your anything that happens in Star Wars is more powerful simply for being a part of it nonsense.

So some jackass who just has an opinion which isn't a fact we base everything from. Dear lord you need your head examined because you lost your German marbles. Again with the nonsensical claims. How correct was Han with bringing his son in ? How did that end up for old Han ?

And Trek has red matter which by feats is greater since it destroyed an active super nova. What's sadder for wars is you need years and huge bases to co struck whereas Trek needs small ships and drops of the stuff to set at its target. The practicality of it is laughable compared to Wars massive manpower required to construct and maintain the station.

Cite your courses quit with the nerd math. Baseless claim.

MF was hit by one off screen and we never see it struck again. It depends on the size of the asteroid and the speed both which we can't determine since we see inside the cockpit at the time of the attack.


Off screens and they had tie fighters and massive help. I've seen three star destroyers unable to stop the MF due to poor offensive targeting and maneuverability.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Dude you realize you just proved your own arguement wrong. It's like you don't even know what words mean.

But yes I did misrepresent your arguement just to see you go off the deep end. As Vadar would say "Aw to easy."

You won't be giving up, will you, Nai? But for this discussion, that's a good thing.

Just one thing to note, according to the ESB script, it was flak fire not Turbolasers that the ISD used against the Falcon.

@CommonsenseIsaytheeNai

Posting the same pictures again with nothing official to confirm the distance or the size of the explosion.

Again you can speculate as to the size of the explosion but since we can't see close enough up and can't verify it is baseless you friggin' Star Wars cult member.

I time stamped the evidence which shows the inconsistencies you blabbering infant.

The point is this ship can bring down tie fighters but it can't tear through a little wintery armor. We all know the tie fighters are more durable than these forgettable Star Wars turds but you keep being you and ignoring these facts and logical inconsistencies set within the Star Wars universe. I never once stated the MF can match a destroyer I simply cited an inconsistent comparison within the Star Wars universe you stated didn't exist.

Read the forum default which isn't eu unless otherwise specified.

So you admit your theories were wrong.

I am citing facts so it isn't low or high balling because it's subjective. I am simply citing facts so try to keep your emotions out of this in the near future please. Vengeance is more maneuverable and can easily destroy the deflector shields and decimate this over sized target.

So you wanta to ignore chewies cross caster now. Figures.

That wasn't my point. I am citing examples of the Star Wars handheld guns hitting their targets and laughing at the lack of visceral damage they cause when in direct comparison to Trek weapons.

We have always been comparing everything ship related. The executor went down with its shield down with one much smaller ship crashing into it. Stick to the thread topic the destroyersnot the pt ships. This is a destroyer and the biggest one went down with one pivotal crash.

With the shields on. A much smaller ship easily took out a the deflector,shield and a smaller asteroid easily did as well. In Star Wars as long as your attacking key shielding points they go down ever so easily. The point is something with very weak firepower can take out the deflector shields and then it's s sitting duck. Even a key point crash can bring something over twelve times the size down.

They are shields and prevent access. They were easily destroyed just as the Executor's shield deflectors were destroyed. This is all supported in the films but here come the excuses.

I never contested it lasted quite some time but that isn't my point. We don't know how much time and don't just give random timeframes to support whatever side you really, really, really want to win.

You can't just assume that and I don't just assume that the Narada wasn't at full shield capacity in the final scene of Star Trek because it previously went through 40 some Klingon ships and multiple federation vessels just because. It obviously took a lot of fire before it decimated them all. Picard had key information where to coordinate the trek vessels to fire at one Borg ship which already put down multiple federation vessels as well.

I cited my reasoning and told you logically why this isn't the case. It's common sense and a huge reason you see comic vs fans not nerd calcing anything in the comics due to the inconsistencies. It's a waste of time and not iron clad. One should only debate with iron clad facts and base their arguments of those.

So a man he raised he doesn't have a goddamn clue about but the imperial ships which he's been evading he's a goddamn expert. For **** sake do you even take yourself seriously. His opinion is only his opinion. When someone says Yoda is the most powerful that's just Kenobi or whoever said sos opinion.

You brought up the Death Star you moron.

You wanted to compare each universes bigger weapons so I returned the volley. Since you concede the point I'll drop it.

What does the Death Star have to do with this thread ? Hypocrisy 101.

Screen cap this shit because you're lying. We see the bigger asteroids clearly hit the ties and down them but not one of that size do we ever see visually strike the MF. Go ahead.

So the empire doesn't use coordinated attacks, multiple tie fighters, and multiple destroyers to achieve its goals. Rightttttttttttt.

Originally posted by SunRazer
You won't be giving up, will you, Nai? But for this discussion, that's a good thing. If you believe Nai will see this through you're wrong.

Vengeance is to fast, it will never be hit. X wings were able to target and disable a star destroyers shields. The vengeance will target and destroy the shield generators instantly and easier then the X Wings.

The Vengence wins

Nai has conceded. He gave up. Threw in the towel. Surrendered. Knees buckled. Raised the white flag. Submitted.

You're a Beyonder wanker, so I'll forgive you.

Nai ran off after he realized a SD was taken down by a x wing

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Nai ran off after he realized a SD was taken down by a x wing

When?

Plus why do you and Q assume he just runs off, when he always comes back to reply?

I want to see him type a 5000 word essay explaining how the Vengence loses when an X Wing took down a star destroyer.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Nai ran off after he realized a SD was taken down by a x wing

Originally posted by Zenwolf
When?

Plus why do you and Q assume he just runs off, when he always comes back to reply? I challenged him to an official and judged debate to which he turned down. He proceeded to argue in the challenge thread but was too cowardly to accept. He doesn't believe what he types. I had to seek out Ellimist to argue the ot trilogy vs the Kelvin trilogy. I can post links to him backing down.

Originally posted by TwoBrainCells112
Posting the same pictures again with nothing official to confirm the distance or the size of the explosion.

Again you can speculate as to the size of the explosion but since we can't see close enough up and can't verify it is baseless you friggin' Star Wars cult member.


Oh. The moron is back at work, I suppose.
There are only three types of ships involved in the battle, Quanchi: Capital ships (Star Destroyers / Mon Calamari Cruiser / Frigates), starfighters (X-Wings / TIE-Fighters) and the Millenium Falcon.

Now where could that explosion be and what could it be?

1)
It could be as it said: It's a direct hit on the Executor in which case my size estimations apply perfectly.

2)
It could be the explosion of one of the capital ships, in which case my estimation is still correct because the only capital ships that were not destroyed by the Death Star itself where Star Destroyers (which are 1,6 kilometers long).

3)
It could be the explosion of a Star Fighter. But as we all know, Star Fighters explosions aren't far bigger than the ship that explodes. Thus the explosion, if it had been a starfighter, would have to have happened rather close to the point of view from Luke. Which makes no sense since the space battle happened rather far away from the Death Star and all starfighters involved wer starting from the Star Destroyers. Nothing Rebels or Imperials that close to the Death Star.

4)
It could be explosion of weaponfire some distance away from the Executor. But given the relative closeness of the Imperial capital ships it would not be far away from the point where all of them were fighting, which means that we won't see much of an aberration from my conclusion.

Conclusion: We're dealing with a rather huge explosion and there is no way to deny that, meaning that Star Wars capital ship weapons are far more powerful then Star Trek ones. The End.



You time stamped stuff that doens't have to do anything with this debate and is, on top of that, total bullshit. The Falcon wasn't shooting the stormtroopers with the same weapon which it uses to shoot TIE-Fighters, making your "reasoning" a dead end.



I'd advise you to read the forum default, which isn't "movies only" but - if all - it's "Disney canon" in which the "Clone Wars" movie / TV show and the "Rebels" TV show are included. Furthermore did I bring examples from Revenge of the Sith (even keeping this "film only" which you also chose to ignore.



I admit that the empty power-cell theory was wrong.



Nope. You're not citing facts. You attempt to dodge onscreen evidence from the Star Wars canon material and then attempt to talk it down with entirely unrelated stuff from the movie material (e.g. handguns). Then you do nothing but making baseless claims regarding the topic.

Present proof that the Vengeance can destroy a Star Destroyers deflector shields or shut up, if you don't have an argument. And you don't.



Yes. Because it is not one of the weapons mounted on a Star Destroyer.
Furthermore: No. I want you to understand, that it (for whatever reason) failing to kill Kylo Ren and toss him through the air doesn't mean it doesn't do that anymore, despite the fact it is killing and tossing everbody else it hits. Assuming otherwise - which you do - is lowballing.



We all know, since you have no point.



Again: One can only marvel what this has to do with the topic at hand.
Furthermore: There are example were Star Wars weapons literally vaporize metal constructions, burn through walls, and turn people into burned black skeletons, which you happily ignore in favor for, yes Sir, lowballing.



Again: Context.
The Executor was the main-target in a space battle that lasted over an extended time period, before they lost a deflector shield. This after the entire Rebel fleet focused fire on the ship. You still make it seem as if just one ship was firing on it for one second and the shields went down, which is laughable.

And lmao, telling me to sticking to the thread topic after starting to discuss handweapon. Furthermore: Since the Venator class (or PT ships) are direct forerunners of the Star Destroyers - just less powerful - it is logical to assume that a Star Destroyer can just hit at least as hard as them and tank as much firepower as them - just better (more energy, better shields, better weapons). This is called "logical assumption", you garden-shed dwelling excuse for an intelligent lifeform.



Except it didn't. You're just ignoring the entire context of the scenes in question, given that you have the IQ that is located somewhere between that of your usual house pig and bread.



Except: You still ignoring context and this doesn't happen. A starfighter can not hope to take down the shields of Star Destroyer on his own. Fact. There are no "key shielding points", since the shields sorround the entire ship and prevent energy and matter from passing through them.



They have a shield control located outside the shields - unlike usual ship shielding in Star Wars - since they aren't there to "protect" the ship, just to keep the air in. You're comparing apples to oranges.



It doesn't matter if it were minutes, hours, days or weeks. The usual ship battle in Star Trek is over in seconds, because usually their shields are almost down from the first hit of whatever pathetic weapon is being used against them. And Star Wars can deliver more firepower in far greater speed. There is nothing to debate here.

Of course I can assume that, because it is a logical assumption. If two ships are participating in a head on space battle over an extended period of time, where we see all ships being fired at, then they wouldn't be at full shielding any longer.

And the Narrada was ambushing ships leaving warp speed without shielding on. *Applauds* I wonder how much counterfire there was, when it was just onehitting all other ships. I mean, really, it apparently dealt with the entire Federation fleet in about 40 seconds (which is the time that the Enterprise was behind the rest of the Fleet).




The firepower demonstrated in the movies, which you have chosen to ignore so far, is still depicted to be greater than anything Star Treks has. It gets boring.



The Death Star superlaser is still a modified version of the turbolasers they using in their ships and the power of their ships was compared to the firepower of that superlaser. That is why it is here. And that is why even using canon information only, the Star Destroyer destroys the Vengeance with ease.



We see smaller asteroids hitting and having smaller effects. And it is, again - knowning you have a problem with that - only logical that the MF can tank more damange with its shields than entirely unshielded TIE-Fighters.



That does aid them in getting through the asteroid field (which was the point) how exactly?



Lmao, rat boy.
I declined, because you're no challenge for me, as demonstrated here and don't accept judgements anyway. So where is the point? But yeah. Post links, please, so everybody can see your desperate attention craving.

speak of the devil

Right on cue my obedient Nai. I am not done with you by a long shot but I do have to go on my daily jog. Expect a rebuttal when I can devote the time to counter this fanatical drivel you call your response.

With regards to you not accepting judgments that doesn't mean you don't believe in your case. It just means you're co indent enough to put it in the hands of judges. You weren't I was. Try to get over it.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Right on cue my obedient Nai. I am not done with you by a long shot but I do have to go on my daily jog. Expect a rebuttal when I can devote the time to counter this fanatical drivel you call your response.

With regards to you not accepting judgments that doesn't mean you don't believe in your case. It just means you're co indent enough to put it in the hands of judges. You weren't I was. Try to get over it.

https://m.popkey.co/12f3d0/v4YYw.gif

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
I want to see him type a 5000 word essay explaining how the Vengence loses when an X Wing took down a star destroyer.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
I want to see him type a 5000 word essay explaining how the Vengence loses when an X Wing took down a star destroyer.

Since that never happened, I don't know what I should explain here.

Originally posted by Nai
Since that never happened, I don't know what I should explain here.

Me thinks he means that instance with an A-wing against the Executor, which has already been explained multiple times. Hobbie already has already questioned the idea of two starfighters against a Star Destroyer as if it was something impossible...which that's clear.



LEIA
All troop carriers will assemble
at the north entrance. The heavy
transport ships will leave as
soon as they're loaded. Only two
fighter escorts per ship. The
energy shield can only be opened
for a short time, so you'll have
to stay very close to your transports.

HOBBIE
Two fighters against a Star Destroyer?

LEIA
The ion cannon will fire several
shots to make sure that any enemy
ships will be out of your flight
path. When you've gotten past the
energy shield, proceed directly to
the rendezvous point. Understood?

PILOTS
(in unison)
Right. Okay.

Originally posted by Nai
Since that never happened, I don't know what I should explain here.

It actually did, one A wing took down the shield generators, then one crashed into the bridge and caused the whole thing to crash into the death star.

Something the vengeance could easily replicate.

Did you not watch the Return of the Jedi?



edit: fixed for the sharpshooting clowns

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
It actually did, one x wing took down the shield generators, then one crashed into the bridge and caused the whole thing to crash into the death star.

Something the vengeance could easily replicate.

You mean the Executor...you mean the ship that was being pounded upon by the entire Rebel fleet, also two A-wings took out it's shield generators after that fact and one A-wing crashed into the bridge. Not X-wings.

http://dryerreport.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/hillary-what-difference-does-it-make-use-this-one.jpg

Vengeance weaponry>>>A Wing Weaponry.

Well there's quite a big difference between the Executor and a Star Destroyer. Which I don't see why the former is being brought up at all since it's not in this battle, I'm helping you out here with clearing the confusion.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
It actually did, one x wing took down the shield generators, then one crashed into the bridge and caused the whole thing to crash into the death star.

Something the vengeance could easily replicate.

Did you not watch the Return of the Jedi?



Did you not watch Return of the Jedi?

The Executor was the focus target of the entire Rebel Fleet before the shields were destroyed. And at that point, it had already been the main target in a space battle lasting - what - 20 minutes? 30 minutes?

That is what we call "context" and you really shouldn't ignore that when trying to make arguments. Otherwise, you just make yourself look like a lobotomized assclown. And we already have quanchi for that job.

That also wasn't the shield generator. It was some communication tower.

Regardless, bringing up the Executor is pointless for this discussion because it's not being used..