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They start three meters apart.

up

Vitiiii

From three meters?

Yez

Based on what feats? At that distance Revan Reborn may have butchered him.

*Shrug*

I'm of the mind that Vitiate's reaction speed is significantly hampered due to his focus on his more esoteric abilities.

Well, Vitiate couldn't have gathered the energy for his TK wave or Storm, so he'd probably have to rely on Revan deflecting his bolts to push him further back lol.

I honestly think Vader wins this.

- novel Vitiate has pretty much no remarkable feats off a nexus.
- He also wasn't able to overcome Revan (even on a nexus) without taking time to power up an attack, which he won't really have time to do here.
- the three meters starting distance puts Vitiate like a half second away from Vader's blade.
- Vitiate's reflexes are called into question given his disarming by Meetra.

Vitiate.

Vitiate didn't seem particularly concerned about being inches away from the HoT's blade on Dromund Kaas, so I doubt the starting distance is that big a deal.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Vitiate didn't seem particularly concerned about being inches away from the HoT's blade on Dromund Kaas, so I doubt the starting distance is that big a deal.

Well...he wasn't exactly smart considering he was moving into melee range as he was blasting Force Lighting, a ranged attack.

I was talking about the very beginning of the fight, but yeah he's dumb.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I was talking about the very beginning of the fight, but yeah he's dumb.

I know, but I'm just saying.

Vitiate without much difficulty.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Vitiate didn't seem particularly concerned about being inches away from the HoT's blade on Dromund Kaas, so I doubt the starting distance is that big a deal.

Yeah, but this time we have an earlier version without a nexus and against a much more powerful foe.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I honestly think Vader wins this.

- novel Vitiate has pretty much no remarkable feats off a nexus.
- He also wasn't able to overcome Revan (even on a nexus) without taking time to power up an attack, which he won't really have time to do here.
- the three meters starting distance puts Vitiate like a half second away from Vader's blade.
- Vitiate's reflexes are called into question given his disarming by Meetra.
- The dude doesn't leave his capital planet, which turned into a nexus as a result of his use of the Force, this doesn't outright suggest weakness to me.
- This fighting scene has been discussed so many times. Nothing that happens before the end overwrites the fact that Vitiate overwhelmed him with a single attack at the end.
- Vitiate's assumed vulnerability in close range never seems to threaten him. You can argue that he is simply that stupid or reckless (which doesn't make sense at all) but after his fight with Revan, he seems to be more cautious when approaching his enemies even with full power, yet when weakened and in the middle of executing his millennia old life goal, he still walks up to HoT's saber as Beni said.
- He wasn't paying attention, tbh.

Vitiate.

We honestly didn't see enough of Novel Vitiate to reach a consensus on this fight, imo.

Originally posted by Sinious
- The dude doesn't leave his capital planet, which turned into a nexus as a result of his use of the Force, this doesn't outright suggest weakness to me.


I'm just not very impressed by his struggling with Revan when he had a nexus described for its amazing power on multiple occasions on his side.



Yeah, but he doesn't have the distance to charge up such an attack here. His off-the-hip attacks did nothing to Revan.



Vader >> HoT.



Ehhh maybe. But the overall impression of Vitiate's combat awareness isn't very good, and given his precarious starting position, it puts him in a pinch.

I know we can't account for this in debates, but tbf Vitiate being almost overpowered by Surik and Revan is due to Karpy's idiocity more than anything else.

@ Ellim,

I'm in class but I'll respond soon.

What keeps Vitiate from mindraping him btw?

Same thing that stopped him mindraping Revan, the JK, the Outlander, I imagine.

What Vader-tier Force users has Vitiate mindraped, exactly?

ROTJ Palpatine brought Vader to his knees across the galaxy with TP.

Vader's getting ****ed.

ROTJ Sidious has better TP feats than novel Vitiate though...

Does he though tbh?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
ROTJ Sidious has better TP feats than novel Vitiate though... Like bringing Vader to his knees across the galaxy with TP, yeah.

On the other hand Vitiate's telepathy is more creepy and intense. mmm

Tbh.

I had to laugh at vader>HoT

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
ROTJ Palpatine brought Vader to his knees across the galaxy with TP.

While his mind was obviously unguarded and not suspecting such an attack? Luke was able to do similar to Vader, because his mind was "unguarded". Still didn't stop a ready Vader from forcefully stripping info from a much more powerful Luke when the latter tried his best to block him out.

Kaiba stomps.

Except against Yugi.

RfqNH3FoGi0

Yugi cheats, tbh.

It's only cheating if you get caught.

Vitiate is still more powerful. Vader would probably put up a decent fight though; same as Revan did. Especially considering Vader would receive the same amp Vitiate did, if they're fighting in the same arena that is.

Beni, DC: wanna hop on Duel Network soon?

I'd have to brush up on my skillz...

Wanna go on coalition?

Not today, gotta go to bed soon.

Well ****, DN was taken down permanently. Now have to resort to the admittedly superior YGOPRO.

YGO is gone too, IIRC, kek.

**** me.

Anyone play Pokemon showdown?

Ehh, I kinda suck at Pokemon, tbh. I could always learn to get better, tho.

Yeah, I'd be willing to help.

Beni, you interested? When you wake up, of course.

Until Revan, who batted his attacks back at him on a dark side nexus. Vitiate won by charging an attack; how does he have space to do that here?



He planned for their arrival at the base of his power on a nexus, and kills them using some method that he conveniently never uses again. Sounds doubtful that he could just pull it off with three meters to spare on neutral territory.



The mythos tries really hard to depict Sidious as being at the top of the most potent era, and Talzin matches him.



OK, so he's a lazy and bad fighter; why wouldn't he do the same with Vader?

I still don't see evidence that Vitiate actually could've killed Revan casually if he'd wanted to. If he held back, those illusions should've gone away when Revan first knocked back his attempt at mental domination.



From three meters out?

But why didn't he just do that? I'd imagine that the bolts he launched at Revan held some unique advantage over the continuous stream, or he wouldn't have bothered using them.



Wasn't Ziost a nexus?

You mistook all my points as I never said he can pull these things off casually or that all that information should be taken at face value, but merely explained why it's natural for him to underestimate Revan and perform terribly against him.

Also, iirc, Vitiate was so weakened that he was on the brink of death during Ziost, which is why I mentioned a feat 300 years after the novel that took place on a nexus.

Those are equivalent reasons for him to underestimate Vader.

The setting of this fight is pretty unnatural, given these guys have no history and the starting distance is oddly close, and the fight takes place outside DK let alone the citadel. I mean, we've never really seen novel Vitiate under these circumstances. So, assuming that Vitiate would halfass the fight in a similar fashion doesn't make sense imo, and even if he did, he'd simply attack Vader's mind as he did to Revan.

Also, I think it's best to assume that both characters will go all out to see where they should be placed as combatants, especially since we see a drastic change in Vitiate's mentality right after this fight.

I guess it's possible that Vitiate was holding back against Revan by some unknown amount, even after Revan resisted his TP and knocked him back, although even when the three stood against him at the end it was implied that they had a shot.

Take away the nexus and starting distance but add in him trying harder - does this actually help Vitiate?

I just don't see what Vitiate has done that gives him the win here, and I don't think we can just speculate as to whether he's actually far more powerful than he's shown.

I think it's pretty clear that he is significantly more powerful than Revan in the Force, who is at least approaching Vader level imo, and the fact that he has a massive TP advantage doesn't help Vader.

I don't see him TP'ing anyone on Vader's level, seeing as how he's never done so.

Yeah, he was more powerful than Revan in the Force, but even with that, more starting distance, and a powerful nexus, he needed to charge up an attack to break through Revan's defenses - and he only has three meters here.

Oh, and Vitiate should win, obviously.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I don't see him TP'ing anyone on Vader's level, seeing as how he's never done so.

Yeah, he was more powerful than Revan in the Force, but even with that, more starting distance, and a powerful nexus, he needed to charge up an attack to break through Revan's defenses - and he only has three meters here. Sidious's mental assault on Vader compared to novel suggesting that Revan would be helpless without experiencing Vitiate's attack in the past tbh.

So the nexus amp = unquantifiable
Vitiate holding back = unquantifiable.
Vitiate's crucial superiority to Revan in the Force = undeniable.
And from all this you think that a Revan level opponent defeats Vitiate because of 3 meters distance?

Sidious caught Vader off guard, and honestly OT Sidious is far more powerful than novel Vitiate. Likewise, I still don't think Revan is as powerful as Vader; and he was facing a nexus-amped Vitiate.

I think it's reasonable to say that the influence of a powerful nexus matters more than Vitiate "holding back", because it would be ridiculous for Vitiate to hold back after he got knocked back on his ass by Revan the first time, and after Revan showed that he could resist his TP, which apparently nobody had ever pulled off before.

Yeah, Vitiate was superior to Revan in the Force - which makes his performance all the more underwhelming. And here he's right next to Vader and within one lunge from decapitation.

Not sure how potent Vitiate's Force defenses are at this point, and if he can repel Vader's blade on such short notice.

But in terms of general combat, Vitiate's better, yeah.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
It's only cheating if you get caught.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Sidious caught Vader off guard, and honestly OT Sidious is far more powerful than novel Vitiate. I actually sorta agree with this, but the fact that Sidious can do it from the other side of the galaxy still speaks for the gap of power between them when it comes to TP. Also, doesn't he literally sense what Vader is contemplating there, which is what causes him to invade Vader's mind in the first place?

One can argue that OT Sidious has superior raw power to Vitiate, but I'm not sure if he has superior TP. I think it's clear that they're at least operating on similar levels, and in their first confrontation Vitiate was expecting Revan, sure, but the fact that he mindraped Malak with him and how he couldn't ever mindrape him again even with 300 years long time and help from Dread Masters makes the prep he had in the first confrontation quite unimportant regarding why he couldn't mindrape Revan in the novel as it clearly isn't about circumstances, but whether Vitiate's opponents have first time experience or not. This logic is compatible with other instances where Vitikorion TPs his opponents.

Revan wills himself out of death and still fails, why would Vader manage to survive such TP?
Novel Revan vs Darth Vader Force Only is quite debatable, especially in TP.

Well, only in the end we see a change in Vitiate, in fact, Drew on some instances tries to depict how still and calm Vitiate is, until he actually gets pissed and unleashes an attack that one-shots Revan.


Since we're not assuming that this fight will be under similar circumstances in which these characters will react similarly (more transparently, since this isn't Drew's shitty writing), and we're assuming that they'll go all out (end novel Vitiate would anyway even with Drew's writing), Vitaite will either pour lightning until Vader can't take it anymore or will overwhelm him with a TP attack.

If he screws up even slightly though, Vader would naturally win due to 3 meters starting distance.