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At the end of their respective KotOR games, fully refreshed and prepared for battle. Prime versions of gauntlet characters unless specified otherwise. Morals off.

Warmup: Kas'im and Githany

1. PoD Darth Bane

2. Rebels Ahsoka Tano

3. Ben Kenobi

4. Darth Vader

5. Darth Tenebrous

6. Darth Caedus

7. Novel Vitiate

8. Darth Plagueis

Boss: TPM Darth Sidious

So KotOR Revan and KotOR II Exile?

Falls at 7, bitches.

Absolute cancer ordering though.

That's because you have Vader > Tenebrous and Vitiate > Plagueis. Accept that other people don't

Most do.

Not sure about most, but the ad populum argument doesn't count for much. Ten years ago, Sidious was about as respected as Bane today.

And those stances aren't all that outrageous, anyway. So it's really not that cancer. You just have Plagueis and Tenebrous stupidly low.

Originally posted by SunRazer
but the ad populum argument doesn't count for much.
It does, since your gauntlets are for the public, not yourself. Making them in shit orders makes it more difficult for the majority to gauge

Actually, I don't know if the majority thinks that. Especially since Skillz has Plagueis > novel Vitiate

They're not shit orders at all. They're debatable, but people won't be losing brain cells over them. For someone who ranks Revan as a match for Plagueis, you're criticizing this an awful lot.

Originally posted by SunRazer
You just have Plagueis and Tenebrous stupidly low.
I have Plagueis as the fourth greatest lightsaber duelist in history and as Force-user above Revan.

He's still not overcoming a godlike being though.

A direct predecessor to somebody who's canonically more powerful than Vitiate 300 years after the novel? Yeah, it's not that hard to believe.

I actually have Plagueis ~ Novel Vitiate in the force. Hard to say if Plagueis could replicate instantaneously overwhelming Revan's tutaminis like Vitiate did, but at the same time Plagueis does have his own insane hype/force feats.

This is all-out, not just Force.

At this level of combat, especially with people like Plagueis and Vitiate, I'd argue the force would be a more deciding factor in a fight.

If they're about equal in the Force, and Plagueis has the clear edge in everything else, it's pretty clear that Hego takes the cake. That the Force is more important doesn't detract from that fact.

http://www.harleysdecals.com/images/FIGHT%20CANCER%20PINK.jpg

DC's already used that.

Ant, just accept that these ratings are agreed upon by a respectable enough majority of the forum to not make them cancerous. Besides, the more respectable half of the forum would agree with me, so...

All you have to do is write most powerful on the cover of your book to make things true, tbh.

Let's get back to the gauntlet now.

6.

Maybe. Depends on how the Exile performs.

Clear.

Please don't tell me you think she's going to go for the Battle Meditation. I regret saying it's morals off now.

She goes Battle Meditation

Done at Vader. Revan isn't>Vader yet, and Meetra isn't adding much to the contest.

Actually, looking at the gauntlet, they go down at 5.

Vader.

Dead at Vader.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Done at Vader. Revan isn't>Vader yet, and Meetra isn't adding much to the contest.

Someone gets it

Possibly 4/5, tbh. Unless Meetra goes for Battle Med.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Falls at 7, bitches.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Done at Vader. Revan isn't>Vader yet, and Meetra isn't adding much to the contest.

She passively force drains everyone she fights, and given she has a force bond with Revan her amp benefits both equally.

So they're fighting weakened opponents while amped, not that they couldn't beat Vader already for a decent majority...

It's not like Vader has Drain resistence or anything.

Yes, Vader is immune to all drains, forever.

Originally posted by MythLord
It's not like Vader has Drain resistence or anything.

The very act of resisting the drain, even if it works on Surik's technique, requires conscious effort and strength, while she need not do anything.

So they still retain their advantage. Try again

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes, Vader is immune to all drains, forever.

Nah, but Meetra's drain is certainly something Vader can resist.

Originally posted by Selenial
The very act of resisting the drain, even if it works on Surik's technique, requires conscious effort and strength, while she need not do anything.

So they still retain their advantage. Try again

Yeah it's not like Vader is, oh I dunno, a Force sensitive or anything. It's not like he can sense, predict or even feel he's being trained and then respond. Try again

Down at Vader.

Originally posted by MythLord

Yeah it's not like Vader is, oh I dunno, a Force sensitive or anything. It's not like he can sense, predict or even feel he's being trained and then respond in kind. Try again

Kek, what?

What do you think the drain resistance technique actually is? Even if he counters her drain, which there's no guarantee he can, he is wasting resources and attention doing so, while her drain is completely passive and requires no effort on her part. What there is difficult to understand. I suggest you try again

Originally posted by Selenial
Kek, what?

What do you think the drain resistance technique actually is? Even if he counters her drain, which there's no guarantee he can, he is wasting resources and attention doing so, while her drain is completely passive and requires no effort on her part. What there is difficult to understand. I suggest you try again

Given that it required little effort for padawan Annie, what's stopping a considerably more powerful and skilled Force user like Vader to waste little reserves before discarding her like a wet cloth with the Force?

Originally posted by MythLord
Given that it required little effort for padawan Annie, what's stopping a considerably more powerful and skilled Force user like Vader to waste little reserves before discarding her like a wet cloth with the Force?

A technique that he used to combat a machine which is completely different, not to mention Qel-Droma literally says while teaching Anakin that it's a temporary and short term technique.

Do you have any idea what you're talking about, like, ever?

Originally posted by Selenial
A technique that he used to combat a machine which is completely different, not to mention Qel-Droma literally says while teaching Anakin that it's a temporary and short term technique.

A machine which drains the life force of all living things that is then placed in it's center literally called the Force Harvester. Temporary was enough for Anakin and Qel-Droma to fight through massive battles and still disable it, so I'm pretty sure it'll last long enough for Vader to choke Meetra. Also, I have a hard time believing it will be of any real significance here when beings less powerful than Vader were barely affected by it.

Originally posted by Selenial
Do you have any idea what you're talking about, like, ever?

Say what you will about my debating, I don't feel the need to start immediately insulting other users in order to mask defeat.

Selenial cleaning house.

As any woman should.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Selenial cleaning house.

How is she doing that and debating at the same time?

Damn, RIP Selenial.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
How is she doing that and debating at the same time?
Single, independant, multi-tasking woman. Gotta respect that, tbh.

Originally posted by Selenial
Kek, what?

What do you think the drain resistance technique actually is? Even if he counters her drain, which there's no guarantee he can, he is wasting resources and attention doing so, while her drain is completely passive and requires no effort on her part. What there is difficult to understand. I suggest you try again

Not that I'm getting involved here but what?

Anakin was piloting a tank, managing it's weapons/systems and avoiding the weapons of the Dark Reaper while keeping his Drain Immunity up. Which sounds to me like he was also doing it with no effort while multi-tasking.

Originally posted by Selenial
Kek, what?

What do you think the drain resistance technique actually is? Even if he counters her drain, which there's no guarantee he can, he is wasting resources and attention doing so, while her drain is completely passive and requires no effort on her part. What there is difficult to understand. I suggest you try again

Seeing as how Vader's feats give him the ability to exert the Force to a degree orders of magnitude beyond the duo, he could be putting 70% of his focus on that and still win. I mean, Force users have to put up a shield against offensive attacks (PoD) while also dealing with melee maneuvers, minding their footwork, etc.

Vader is so much stronger than them both that their drain won't matter. He has a better chance of just snapping their necks outright.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
He has a better chance of just snapping their necks outright.

Lmao: Vader isn't snapping end of KOTOR Revan's neck. Him and Meetra defeat him surely.

Fall at Tenebrous though.

Tenebrous being above Vader is cancer within itself.

No way can a case be made, he's more than 80%, Palpatine's power. Or even near, tbh.

Why not?

Math and power-scaling LMAO.

Plagueis, by time it's all said and done, ended up above Tenebrous by a decent degree. Palpatine - by RotS alone - was above Plagueis by a decent amount himself. That degree grown even more so by RotJ; which is the period where Vader is 80% Palpatine's power per Lucas.

Given the wide gap between Sidious and Tenebrous through factual power levels and such, it seems rather unlikely that he would be anything more than 70% Sidious power using Lucas' scale. He certainly shouldn't be anything more than 8/10 that power.

80% potential isn't something Vader was ever stated as actually reaching.

Originally posted by MythLord
Clear.

Originally posted by MythLord
A machine which drains the life force of all living things that is then placed in it's center literally called the Force Harvester. Temporary was enough for Anakin and Qel-Droma to fight through massive battles and still disable it, so I'm pretty sure it'll last long enough for Vader to choke Meetra. Also, I have a hard time believing it will be of any real significance here when beings less powerful than Vader were barely affected by it.
You have no idea how said machine works, however, and are ignoring the fact Surik's drain isn't the conventional aspect of force drain.

Uliq taught the Jedi Order how to defeat the Dark Reaper the first time, yet Kreia still defines force drain as having "no defense", when the Dark Reaper crisis only happened half a century prior. To suggest she, a Jedi Historian, simply wasn't aware of one is ridiculous. Far more likely is it that the Force Reaper defense simply doesn't work.

Also please cite a single enemy "less powerful than Vader" who was "barely affected by it."

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Not that I'm getting involved here but what?

Anakin was piloting a tank, managing it's weapons/systems and avoiding the weapons of the Dark Reaper while keeping his Drain Immunity up. Which sounds to me like he was also doing it with no effort while multi-tasking.

None of those things involve the force.

Originally posted by Selenial
You have no idea how said machine works, however, and are ignoring the fact Surik's drain isn't the conventional aspect of force drain.



Pretty much what I said. But please, do continue telling me how I know nothing while making statements that contradict factual evidence.
Also, I'm going to need proof, not your conjecture, that Surik's drain is somehow unique from the actual description of Drain that also applies to the Dark Reaper;





Originally posted by Selenial
Uliq taught the Jedi Order how to defeat the Dark Reaper the first time, yet Kreia still defines force drain as having "no defense", when the Dark Reaper crisis only happened half a century prior. To suggest she, a Jedi Historian, simply wasn't aware of one is ridiculous. Far more likely is it that the Force Reaper defense simply doesn't work.

Traya was talking about herself not being able to defend against Nihilus' Sever Force, not drain. Besides, you're using a rather large no limit fallacy here. I am to assume now that Meetra can drain every single Force user she fights? Yoda? Palpatine? The Ones? The Bedlams? Is there a limit? There obviously is one, and currently her limit is sub-Vader scrubs, so I doubt that'll make a change in this fight.

Originally posted by Selenial
Also please cite a single enemy "less powerful than Vader" who was "barely affected by it."

Traya, Nyriss, Sion, etc. They were, indeed, barely affected by it. And even Nihilus, someone who's magnitude sh!ts on Meetra's, couldn't kill a non-Force sensitive during combat with his passive Force Drain, so why Surik can make a big change against Vader via her passive Drain is beyond me.

Originally posted by SunRazer
80% potential isn't something Vader was ever stated as actually reaching.
Except he wasn't talking about potential.

Lucas specifically said "Now Vader is maybe 20% less" not his potential is "20% less". It was pretty clear he was talking about current, and not some future shit.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Except he wasn't talking about potential.

Lucas specifically said "Now Vader is maybe 20% less" not his potential is "20% less". It was pretty clear he was talking about current, and not some future shit.

Lucas said "it could've been 200%, now it's 80%". That's clearly a reference to potential, since he's talking about Vader immediately following the events of Mustafar.

Otherwise, Vader, right as he's reconstructed after Mustafar, is 80% of Sidious. That's laughable, considering that despite his rage and explosive usages of the Force in the operation room, he couldn't even affect Sidious. That wouldn't be the case if he had 80% of Sidious' power.

Originally posted by Selenial
None of those things involve the force.

So? You said he has to have some effort to do it.



Yet clearly while he's multi-tasking on other things, he can do it without effort. Divided attention is still divided, has nothing to do using The Force.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Lucas said "it could've been 200%, now it's 80%". That's clearly a reference to potential, since he's talking about Vader immediately following the events of Mustafar.

He never said "it" as referring to a intangible thing --- potential. He said " he" is now 20%, as if referring to Vader the person, not potenrial, and in current tense.



Umm...what? IIRC, The quote was referring to Vader as of ESB/RotJ --- hence, why George was talking about Palpatine having his eyes set on Luke Skywalker, because he could have been 200% himself, rather than what Vader was now 80%.

None of that dictates how the machine works. Does it draw the force energy of everything around it at once? Is it targeted, drawing the energies of the strongest Force Users first? Can it be tricked by simply masking one's presence in the force, is that how Qel-Droma deceives it? The fact that any of those statements are even a possibility proves that applying Vader's resistance to drain to every form of drain is nothing more than a fallacy.

The fact is, the Jedi Council had encountered Drain before. The Dark Reaper crisis occurred during the lifetimes of Masters Vrook, Zez Kai-Ell and Kavar. Yet all these esteemed and knowledgable Jedi failed to apply the widely known Jedi counter to the Dark Reaper against Traya. All the Jedi who fell to the assassins of the Triumvirate failed to apply the well known Jedi "counter to force drain". They all died, after being fed upon.

Surik's drain is linked entirely to her Force Wound, and the technique of the Sith to feed on the Jedi that is described as new (despite being prevalent in previous Empires) is also linked to her, and Malachor.







lmao wat.



Nihilus wall of light confirmed. Nihilus the true paragon of Dark and Light. Move over Revan, you fugging wannabe.

Sever force. Lmao.

Yes, Nihilus' drain isn't standard drain, and perhaps it encompasses some of the sphere that encompasses Sever Force, but his technique was not cutting her off from the force, that is not how he works. He fed from her like he fed from everyone else, and the fact you're suggesting that Nihilus' drain is uniques, but the Exile's is not (when they are precisely the same thing) is clinically retarded.

Oh, and yes, she'd probably be able to drain Yoda, Palpatine and potentially even The Ones, on the presumption they don't decide to ragdoll her. Krayt managed to drain Abeloth just fine, despite being infinitely inferior to her. Drain has no defense, that's kind of the point, higher tier beings can simply deal with it far more effectively.



****ing lmao you listed Nyriss. This is why I don't take you seriously. The Exile healed her wound years before fighting Nyriss, it's why she was significantly less impressive than during The Dark Wars.

As for Sion and Traya, give me a quote that suggests they weren't affected, please. They're sitting on a "colossal geyser of Dark Side Energy", of course they'd be able to shrug off Drain more effectively than on neutral ground.

Finally, no, Nihilus' drain killed everyone in his immediate vicinity, he simply kept the crew of his ship alive through his own energies. He needed them alive. As for Mandalore, the only explanation of his survival is the symbiotic link he has with the Exile, he was able to replenish through her whatever Nihilus passively stole.
__________________

Why the **** are you both talking about Drain when the only time Surik has used it is after killing someone, and the fact that she can't use it at the end of KotOR II anyway?

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
He never said "it" as referring to a intangible thing --- potential. He said " he" is now 20%, as if referring to Vader the person, not potenrial, and in current tense. Umm...what? IIRC, The quote was referring to Vader as of ESB/RotJ --- hence, why George was talking about Palpatine having his eyes set on Luke Skywalker, because he could have been 200% himself, rather than what Vader was now 80%.

Nothing refers to RotJ or ESB in the interview here: http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2005/02/star-wars-george-lucas-story

"Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful,” he says. “But he ended up losing his legs and an arm and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he's maybe 20 percent less than him."

He said Vader could've been 200% of Palpatine, but the events of Mustafar changed that to 80%. If he's referring to actualized, effective power, then that should apply immediately, which it obviously doesn't. Moreover, he says "maybe twenty percent", which sounds like a very generous estimate and certainly not canonical figure.

Anyone can post the actual quote?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Why the **** are you both talking about Drain when the only time Surik has used it is after killing someone, and the fact that she can't use it at the end of KotOR II anyway?

She uses it passively throughout the game, that's supposed to be one of the great reveals. The Jedi masters describe it as "becoming stronger when other force sensitives are near."

Oh, and she can't use it after she heals her wound, which isn't the end of KotOR II. If he asked about Non-Wound!Surik, then yeh, you'd be right.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Anyone can post the actual quote?

Edited it in above.

Originally posted by Selenial
She uses it passively throughout the game, that's supposed to be one of the great reveals. The Jedi masters describe it as "becoming stronger when other force sensitives are near."

Oh, and she can't use it after she heals her wound, which isn't the end of KotOR II. If he asked about Non-Wound!Surik, then yeh, you'd be right.

Yet no one seems to really be affected when around her so....I don't see how it's gonna be affecting anyone here.

Plus you're really gonna compare that Drain to this Drain?

https://youtu.be/1lxFz6lguyU?t=399

https://youtu.be/1lxFz6lguyU?t=427

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Yet no one seems to really be affected when around her so....I don't see how it's gonna be affecting anyone here.

Source?

Because I find your opinion on the animations in game irrelevant

Originally posted by Selenial
Source?

Because I find your opinion on the animations in game irrelevant

You just said it, she passively drains others, yet no one feels any real difference around them that it kills them.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
You just said it, she passively drains others, yet no one feels any real difference around them that it kills them.

Please quote me where I have once stated it would kill any of the people in this thread.

Unless you're suggesting everyone in the game would state, right before their death at her hands "oh no I feel like you've been draining me this whole time i've fallen into your trap oh dear".

It's stated in a cutscene because there's no way of subtly but openly showing it throughout the entire game.

Originally posted by Selenial
She uses it passively throughout the game, that's supposed to be one of the great reveals. The Jedi masters describe it as "becoming stronger when other force sensitives are near."

Unless everyone in this gauntlet is going to Force Bond with her and be best friends, I'm not seeing the point. It was hardly in any combat capacity anyway.

Uh, yeah it is. She lets go of her bond with Kreia and the past, and then blows up Malachor.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Plus you're really gonna compare that Drain to this Drain?

https://youtu.be/1lxFz6lguyU?t=399

https://youtu.be/1lxFz6lguyU?t=427

<------------- Point

\O/ <------------- Your head.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Nothing refers to RotJ or ESB in the interview

So I guess him going on to mention recruiting Luke to be his apprentice, in the next sentence is referring to RotS, right?



Again, learn basic English and grammar. If he meant potential, he wouldn't have said: " Vader is now maybe 80% less than him"

Ask anyone with a brain, and it obviously refers to the present tense, rather than an intangible thing in a future.

By saying and "he's", Lucas is referring to an actual person, and not an intangible "maybe" , lime potential --- in the future. Or now, which directly refers to the present tense, again, when used in conjunction with the above, it makes no sense if it was referring to the future.

Again, in order for the quote to mean what you think it does, George would have had to say "now his potential is 80% the Emperors" which, he didn't.

Also, it's totally possible that Vader did have 80% the raw power Palpatine had by RotS, but lacked the mastery, mindset, and ability to combatively call upon it.

This site is shit-tier and isn't allowing me to edit my post, KEK.

^ does it return a blank post?

1. That's a separate part of the paragraph. He goes on to say that it's because of Anakin's lost potential that he does this and that. His reference to being 20% less than the Emperor was in the same sentence as his description of Vader's lost potential on Mustafar.

2.



Pretty much what I've said for a while. Vader could well have 80% of Palpatine's raw power, just not the mastery or knowledge to wield it as effective power. That's precisely what potential is - raw power. Mastering your potential means mastering your power and being able to wield it effectively. So the scope of Vader's raw power is largely irrelevant since he can't call upon all of it - he's yet to obtain the knowledge and mastery to do so. So there's little point bringing it up in a thread. Maul apparently had the raw power, or potential, to match or even supersede Sidious as well, yet his actualized power obviously isn't anywhere near that.

And as I said, Lucas' "maybe" throws a serious spanner into your rather dogmatic interpretation of the sentence. He's obviously making a generalization, a guess - and a rather generous one, at that.

"Now he's maybe" sounds very much like he refers to Vader actual power. Otherwise he would've said something like "Now he migh only get to be".

Raw power, sure. That's basically potential. Actualized, effective power? Obviously not, as feats and portrayals indicate.

Nah

The gap between Sidious and Vader is clearly a lot more than just 20%, in my mind. But then again, Sidious is immensely powerful. 20% of his power could be huge - it almost certainly is, in fact. That's why using figures to scale off something as unquantifiable as power is problematic. How do you know what precisely a fifth of somebody's power is? I interpret it one way and you interpret it another.

You're not going to get a conclusive answer out of this since nobody else is ever compared to Sidious' power in terms of percentages. So there's nothing to compare Vader to.

Anyhow, with Vader's Lylek and TFU II feats he definitely fits in before Plagueis to the Rule of Two. So Tene still haven't done shit to be better than Vader.

We're not talking about Tene here, lol. And thanks for bringing up LotS, because Sidious was replicating Vader's showings despite "revealing so little of his true power". I don't know about you, but that doesn't sound like Vader is 80% of Sidious if Sidious is matching his performance with little effort.

Originally posted by Selenial
Please quote me where I have once stated it would kill any of the people in this thread.

Unless you're suggesting everyone in the game would state, right before their death at her hands "oh no I feel like you've been draining me this whole time i've fallen into your trap oh dear".

It's stated in a cutscene because there's no way of subtly but openly showing it throughout the entire game.

So then why are you bringing it up, like it's gonna be some kind of game changer?

Originally posted by Zenwolf
So then why are you bringing it up, like it's gonna be some kind of game changer?
...

Originally posted by Selenial
not that they couldn't beat Vader already for a decent majority...

Please learn to actually read the thread before you start spewing worthless statements.

i admire u choose cersei as ur avi sel

at least u know that ur one sick *****, i can respect that

Cersei is an idiot who thinks she's smart.

Debating Nova is pointless when he makes his mind up. Pointless red herring and sementics plagues his post, LMAO.

I'm not going to repeat myself; the obvious --- thrice, so believe what you will.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Cersei is an idiot who thinks she's smart.
is selenial not?

Originally posted by nedemette
i admire u choose cersei as ur avi sel

at least u know that ur one sick *****, i can respect that

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Cersei is an idiot who thinks she's smart.

Disagree. She does some idiotic things, but it's more she's driven by passion more than cunning, that does not make her an idiot.

Cersei is Sel's an hero

Originally posted by Selenial
Disagree. She does some idiotic things, but it's more she's driven by passion more than cunning, that does not make her an idiot.

She's driven by paranoia, arrogance and revenge. Which makes her an idiot

am i a bad person for rooting for cersei against the HS

Nah, HS was cancur. If only Margaery wouldn't have died

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
She's driven by paranoia, arrogance and revenge. Which makes her an idiot

When has she been driven by paranoia?

Arrogance, yes, but everyone in thrones has been driven by arrogance and revenge, tbh.

Originally posted by Selenial
None of that dictates how the machine works. Does it draw the force energy of everything around it at once? Is it targeted, drawing the energies of the strongest Force Users first? Can it be tricked by simply masking one's presence in the force, is that how Qel-Droma deceives it? The fact that any of those statements are even a possibility proves that applying Vader's resistance to drain to every form of drain is nothing more than a fallacy.

>gives a quote stating exactly what the machine does
>still questions what the machine does

The same questions you asked about the Force Harvester can be asked about drain.

Originally posted by Selenial
The fact is, the Jedi Council had encountered Drain before. The Dark Reaper crisis occurred during the lifetimes of Masters Vrook, Zez Kai-Ell and Kavar. Yet all these esteemed and knowledgable Jedi failed to apply the widely known Jedi counter to the Dark Reaper against Traya. All the Jedi who fell to the assassins of the Triumvirate failed to apply the well known Jedi "counter to force drain". They all died, after being fed upon.

That's funny because it's stated that after the war against the Dark Reaper, all of it's secrets were lost and weren't re-discovered until the PT era. So that's how none of the masters can defend against it.

Originally posted by Selenial
Surik's drain is linked entirely to her Force Wound, and the technique of the Sith to feed on the Jedi that is described as new (despite being prevalent in previous Empires) is also linked to her, and Malachor.

So wait, if Surik can only Drain because of her being a wound(how does that make it unique?), then why are we even discussing this? This is suppose to be novel Meetra, is it not?

Originally posted by Selenial
Nihilus wall of light confirmed. Nihilus the true paragon of Dark and Light. Move over Revan, you fugging wannabe.

Sever force. Lmao.

Sever force isn't exclusive to only Jedi lmao. Then there's the fact that Nihilus has been stated as knowing Severe Force and that's exactly what happened; he didn't drain Traya of her life energies, he severed her from the Force. So again, do continue calling me an idiot whilst you contradict factual evidence

Originally posted by Selenial
Yes, Nihilus' drain isn't standard drain, and perhaps it encompasses some of the sphere that encompasses Sever Force, but his technique was not cutting her off from the force, that is not how he works. He fed from her like he fed from everyone else, and the fact you're suggesting that Nihilus' drain is uniques, but the Exile's is not (when they are precisely the same thing) is clinically retarded.

Ever hear of a strawman? Because you're using one. I never said Nihilus' Drain is unique, but rather more potent. How am I suppose to take you seriously if you don't even read an argument properly?

Originally posted by Selenial
Oh, and yes, she'd probably be able to drain Yoda, Palpatine and potentially even The Ones, on the presumption they don't decide to ragdoll her. Krayt managed to drain Abeloth just fine, despite being infinitely inferior to her. Drain has no defense, that's kind of the point, higher tier beings can simply deal with it far more effectively.

Krayt drained an Abeloth who wasn't defending from him but was more focused on Luke and wasn't even that damaged by it, IIRC, and while Hett was amped. And Krayt is vastly superior to Surik in power, so not the best comparison, hon.

Originally posted by Selenial
****ing lmao you listed Nyriss. This is why I don't take you seriously. The Exile healed her wound years before fighting Nyriss, it's why she was significantly less impressive than during The Dark Wars.

I was under the impression Surik had Drain not just because of her Wound, so apologies. But seriously, you can't really yell at me about getting something wrong when you both couldn't read my argument properly and are grasping at straws for the Force Harvester. But like I said: why are we taking this into account when it's suppose to be novel Meetra?

Originally posted by Selenial
As for Sion and Traya, give me a quote that suggests they weren't affected, please. They're sitting on a "colossal geyser of Dark Side Energy", of course they'd be able to shrug off Drain more effectively than on neutral ground.

Even on that "massive geyser of Dark Side Energy", Sion shouldn't be comparable to Vader, like, at all.

Originally posted by Selenial
Finally, no, Nihilus' drain killed everyone in his immediate vicinity, he simply kept the crew of his ship alive through his own energies. He needed them alive. As for Mandalore, the only explanation of his survival is the symbiotic link he has with the Exile, he was able to replenish through her whatever Nihilus passively stole.


So Mandalore survived because of his Force Bond with Meetra? Do you have any proof there was a Bond to begin with, or is that more of your conjecture?

Originally posted by Selenial
...



Please learn to actually read the thread before you start spewing worthless statements.

I did, yet you brought up the Drain thing anyway.

Yet my whole bit was about you implying Vader/Anakin would need to actually focus his Drain Immunity, when he clearly doesn't as evident of the fight with the Dark Reaper where he was multi-tasking.

Originally posted by Selenial
Disagree. She does some idiotic things, but it's more she's driven by passion more than cunning, that does not make her an idiot.
Right. Being guided by insanity and emotions doesn't make you an idiot. It makes you a retard.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Right. Being guided by insanity and emotions doesn't make you an idiot. It makes you a retard.

*shrug*

She won, so not really. Granted Daenerys' Dothraki will probably take turns but-fugging her, but there wasn't anyone alive in Kings Landing who actually cared about that anyway.

Originally posted by MythLord
then why are we even discussing this? This is suppose to be novel Meetra, is it not? But like I said: why are we taking this into account when it's suppose to be novel Meetra?

"at the end of their respective KotOR games, fully refreshed and prepared for battle. "

I'm happy replying to the rest of your argument, I just want to check if you're going to concede as soon as you re-read the first line of the OP.

Originally posted by Selenial
When has she been driven by paranoia?

Everything about the prophecy tbh.

Originally posted by Selenial
"at the end of their respective KotOR games, fully refreshed and prepared for battle. "

I'm happy replying to the rest of your argument, I just want to check if you're going to concede as soon as you re-read the first line of the OP.

Ah, then alright; I never read the OP except for the rounds. I'm awaiting your response, dear.

She's undoubtedly an idiot, she is infact the reason everything went south in the first place. For her enemies and herself.

Originally posted by AncientPower
She's undoubtedly an idiot, she is infact the reason everything went south in the first place. For her enemies and herself.

Don't get me wrong, I believe that the more her children suffer the more desperate and insane she becomes, but to start with she played the game well.

She pushed for Ned's survival despite the potential threat he posed. She killed Robert subtly and in a way no-one could ever prove. She even tried to get over her intense hatred of Tyrion to allow them both to rule effectively.

What most people call her mistakes (turning on the Tyrells etc) aren't actually mistakes if you factor in her intentions behind them. She never turned on the Tyrells for power or security, the throne and the realm weren't what she feared for in regards to them. Her entire character arc has been around protecting her children despite an entire country that wants them controlled or killed, and up until her actions regarding the sept she did well.

Originally posted by Selenial
*shrug*

She won, so not really. Granted Daenerys' Dothraki will probably take turns but-fugging her, but there wasn't anyone alive in Kings Landing who actually cared about that anyway.
She didn't even not-really win. She pissed off the Reach, the most populated region in Westeros and with the largest army. So she has Dorne, the Reach, and LOlthraki for Dany, the Vale, the Riverlands(probably), and the North for Jon. She's sandwiched between two massive armies. She is going to get raped. Which is exactly what that **** deserves.

Ned pretty much told her his plans, and he posed no threat to her because of his honor. If he swears not to tell anyone about her and Jaime then he wouldn't have.

And Robert was just a drunk old fool, not to mention Tyrion did find out anyway iirc.

Originally posted by MythLord
>gives a quote stating exactly what the machine does
>still questions what the machine does

The same questions you asked about the Force Harvester can be asked about drain.

Your quote was vague and answered nothing, the fact it strips away life force is ridiculously obvious.

And since you cannot answer any of them, why do you feel confident in the application of your obscene fallacy?




A timescale for that was never established. Mace is describing events that happened four thousand years prior. Since it was such a widely spread secret, it disappearing as soon as the device was destroyed makes no sense. It disappearing after the Triumvirate execute every living Jedi and destroy the majority of their knowledge, however, does make sense. And fits Mace's timescale as disappearing "after the war".



The un-defendable aspect of it is. The Wall of Light is what makes sever force so lethal, the Dark Side version is a perversion of Force Drain. Nihilus' "sever force" is only ever described in a Sourcebook and a roleplaying guide, which aren't exactly the most infallible of sources. Even then, it's true, Nihilus can cut an individual from the force... by draining them. Why on earth would he sever Traya from the force instead of consuming her, it is entirely contradictory to his character progression and character arc. It's not like she was making it out of there alive, when she was facing Nihilus and Sion.



And if the defense was so easy as you suggest, and not distracting at all, she would have been fine defending against it anyway. To suggest Abeloth was more distracted by Luke than Vader would be by Revan and Surik is utterly ridiculous....




Irrelevant, I never said he was.



She's stated to be bonded to them all, even the "non force-sensitives" which is literally just Mandalore.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Ned pretty much told her his plans, and he posed no threat to her because of his honor. If he swears not to tell anyone about her and Jaime then he wouldn't have.

And Robert was just a drunk old fool, not to mention Tyrion did find out anyway iirc.

Tyrion pieced it together through a conversation with her IIRC, he'd have no proof.

Yeh, Ned told her his plans, and she managed to get the king killed, the City Watch under her thumb and him set up for failure by the time he had any chance of acting on them. That specific scenario was a complete win.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
She didn't even not-really win. She pissed off the Reach, the most populated region in Westeros and with the largest army. So she has Dorne, the Reach, and LOlthraki for Dany, the Vale, the Riverlands(probably), and the North for Jon. She's sandwiched between two massive armies. She is going to get raped. Which is exactly what that **** deserves.

Yeh, agreed. Thing is though, like I said, her motivations were her children. Now she's on the throne she's bat shit crazy and probably going to **** up royal, but she saw how Tommen was being used and she acted.

Same with Myrcella, she probably ended up positioning a huge ally on the side of Daenerys with what she did, but if she hadn't, Myrcella would have died at the hands of the Sand Snaked, who would have marched on the Lannisters anyway as soon as Daenerys arrived...

y did cersei get pycelle killed

Even Cersei didn't want to kill Ned, because that would be ****ing retarded. That was always all Shitrrey.

@Sel; I'll respond today, tomorrow or in a few days.

Soon can be defined as many things; to some a few days is not soon, but to others a few months is. But if it works for you, then yes... soon

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Debating Nova is pointless when he makes his mind up. Pointless red herring and sementics plagues his post, LMAO.

I'm not going to repeat myself; the obvious --- thrice, so believe what you will.

What semantics and red herrings? It's your interpretation that this refers to effective and actualized power as opposed to raw power. I don't interpret it that way, and unless a canonical source closes the book on this, then it's open to interpretation.

I'm saying that portrayals and feats don't back the idea that Vader is effectively 80% of RotJ Sidious in terms of power, and you're not deciding to run away because that's a "red herring" or a "semantic", which shows more than you don't understand what those words mean than anything else.

I also said that you can't precisely quantify what 20% of Sidious' power is, and I haven't seen anybody debate that point. Until you actually address my arguments, then that's a concession on both you and Zoltan's part. I'm hardly being unreasonable here. I'm just asking you to prove that it's effective, mastered power as opposed to raw power, and I'm asking you what you think 20% of Sidious' power is.

Considering one of Plagueis best feat is practically atomizing the Maladian assains, while Vader is more powerful than a guy who can practically atomized a 150 meter frigate, your argument is invalid and you suck goat dick you disgusting furry ****.

That was a feat Plagueis did with two of his three hearts recently stopped, with him having lost much of his blood and still losing blood, and decades from his prime.

Considering Meetra beat Traya on a "colossal geyser of dark side energy" and Vader had trouble with An'ya Kuro, Surik walks all over Robocop.

Also, I recall this discussion starting on the basis that Vader could one-shot Surik, which absolutely nobody has proven.

Regarding the Lannisters:

http://www.slate.com/content/dam/slate/articles/arts/television/2015/05/150513_TV_GoT_Chance.jpg.CROP.original-original.jpg

They ain't shit without Papa.

Lena Headey is amazing, but Cersei's such an unlikeable Kunt who lacks her father's and siblings' more charming qualities. Tyrion and Jamie are engaging antiheroes and you had to respect Tywin, but everything Cersei does just backfires in spectacular fashion. 'Strap is right: the only way Cersei lasts more than two episodes into season 7 would be due to an epic authorial asspull. I hope we see a long, brutal, protracted destruction for someone so appalling.

Nova --- you make me absolutely sick to my stomach sometimes. No matter how many times I have to explain from a grammatical standpoint, I'm correct in regards to the quote, you just reach like Reed Richards.

I'll get to your post, tomorrow, if I feel like chemo'ing through your cancer, that is.

P.S. I didn't say shit about Vader one-shotting Meetra, IIRC so get out outta here with that bullshit.

Never mind, the one-shotting was from another thread.

You Vader supporters don't have anything except calling people who disagree with you cancer and slugging them with whatever insults you can while running away. The idea that asking somebody to quantify 20% of Sidious' power for the sake of clarity is cancer is ****ing laughable and destroys all of your credibility as a debater

Originally posted by SunRazer
You Vader supporters don't have anything except calling people who disagree with you cancer and slugging them with whatever insults you can while running away. The idea that asking somebody to quantify 20% of Sidious' power for the sake of clarity is cancer is ****ing laughable and destroys all of your credibility as a debater
https://pp.vk.me/c629218/v629218789/a87de/MVe-OMtcTTk.jpg

As ironic as that is, he's right about that 200% 80% quote

Originally posted by SunRazer
That was a feat Plagueis did with two of his three hearts recently stopped, with him having lost much of his blood and still losing blood, and decades from his prime.

Considering Meetra beat Traya on a "colossal geyser of dark side energy" and Vader had trouble with An'ya Kuro, Surik walks all over Robocop.

Also, I recall this discussion starting on the basis that Vader could one-shot Surik, which absolutely nobody has proven.

The basis being Traya/Nyriss can't will themselves to the from the point of death, explode gigantic insects that withstand blaster bolts/besiege cities, withstand explosions of massive military installations with barrier, destroy ATTS/crush TIE fighters, choke out powerful force users that can hurl shuttles/disintegrate frigates, and the fact that them being on a nexus doesn't mean anything when they're vastly inferior in the force per feats ?

There is also the fact Vader can pretty easily stomp Traya in just about catagory barring her telepathic feats, and Nyriss whose only notable for her lightning out her on her ass in spite of Being inferior to Vader in every category as well. But yeah he cant ragdoll her coz we all know how skilled Surik is losing to Nyiss (almost being decimated by her lightning) and largely fighting tossers like Sion/fodder Sith in comparison to Vader whose command of the force is rivaled only by the most elite of Sith

LAL.

All I see is goalpost moving, and nitpicking. Lucas explicitly stated Vader ---- was 80% Palpatine's power; get over it. I don't care how we quantify it exactly, but that just is the facts.

I find it funny we run away with the shitty Tenebrous, speculative, Banite power-scaling that can't be proven, but ***** about the Lucas quote.

Not at all. We assume Tenebrous and Plagueis etc. do obtain the mastery and knowledge required to wield their successively superior raw power because they have access to the entire Banite archives and spend their whole lives mastering the dark side - certainly many times longer than Vader's Sith career. For instance, by the start of the Plagueis novel, Plagueis had spent well over a human's lifetime studying under Tenebrous, with both presumably having spent another few decades studying the dark side (Tenebrous under his master, Plagueis with Sidious). Vader only had 23 years and limited access to Sidious' knowledge bank. Hardly comparable examples.

Carthage - I'll give you a response later.

I'm not assuming anything Plagueis has scores of feats that can arguably place him above Vader, i,e causing Naboo to have one of its toughest winters, causing a massive tremor into the force upon his death, mastery of life per Midichlorian manipulation, etc. But Vader simply has greater accolades and force feats to Tenebrous the situations are complete different for all three characters

Still speculation, conjecture, and zero solid proof of anything.

My point stands. By your logic Vitiate should without a doubt be > all because he had had thousands upon thousands of years to study the Force, and the raw power to boot. Yet, you put Luke --- someone who has literally been living a fraction of the time Valkorion has, with less knowledge and shit to pull from, above Val, because....?

Like I said, double standard and shitty speculation abound.

So what are we going to use then? By feats Vader decomposes them. By accolades, Vader still demolishes them, but there's more room for subjectivity depending on how impactful you think certain prose is.

As sketchy as the "maybe" qualifier makes the Vader quote, he doesn't need it to thrash Meetra.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Still speculation, conjecture, and zero solid proof of anything.

Really? Tenebrous is confirmed by numerous quotes from numerous authors to be more powerful than each of the Banite Sith before him. The opening chapter of Darth Plagueis suggests that he spent perhaps over a century learning and mastering the dark side, and we know that his reserves of knowledge were very great. This is all proven stuff. You only need a brain to put all of this together and get a reasonable conclusion.



Because Luke's potential is about as great as Anakin's, which is 200% of Sidious - much more than Vitiate's.



What double standards? You don't have a single example that suits your point.

Originally posted by SunRazer

You Vader supporters don't have anything except calling people who disagree with you cancer and slugging them with whatever insults you can while running away. The idea that asking somebody to quantify 20% of Sidious' power for the sake of clarity is cancer is ****ing laughable and destroys all of your credibility as a debater
Vader being at 80% of his potential would still be 60% more powerful than Sidious, making this argument ****ing retarded no matter how you spin it.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Yet, you put Luke --- someone who has literally been living a fraction of the time Valkorion has, with less knowledge and shit to pull from, above Val, because....?


Bad analogy. Luke has plenty of feats and accolades to put him above Valkorion, and he also benefits from inheriting the potential of the Chosen One - .i.e very similar reasoning to why we can put Tenebrous that highly.

Earth to moron; my point was none of this proves Tenebrous is above Vader at all. Literally, none of it does. It's all speculation and nothing definitive. Use you brain for once, sweety.



Who cares? He obviously didn't come anywhere near reaching that potential, as he isn't anywhere near two times more powerful than Sidious --- if he is at all. We can all pretty much agree combatively speaking, Val and Luke raw power share a good deal of parity.

So again; why can't the same argument you used for Tenebrous being above Vader with the knowledge + time spent mastering and whatever other garbage apply to Val and Luke?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Bad analogy. Luke has plenty of feats and accolades to put him above Valkorion, and he also benefits from inheriting the potential of the Chosen One - .i.e very similar reasoning to why we can put Tenebrous that highly.
It's literally the same thing.

Vader has the bettet feats, (collapsing Cathedrals while half dead, decades before his prime) the better accolades, ( being stated as one of the most powerful Sith/ Force sensitive ever, 80% Palpatine's power, being the second most being in a galaxy that includes Gethzerion, Joruus C'baoth, Black Hole, etc) And even with his potential cut down -- he's still the Chosen One.

So how is the analogy bad?

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
my point was none of this proves Tenebrous is above Vader at all.


We can hardly "prove" anything in SW vs. debating. We can just establish that our model is more probable than not, which is enough. Nobody's building bridges on this information.



It's kind of weird that you call out Nova for not "definitely proving" anything, but then vaguely claim that Valk and Luke share a great deal of parity because Luke didn't reach his full potential, which is both a double standard and a bizarre non-sequitur.

Luke may not have unlocked all of his potential, but there's reasonable grounds to think that he unlocked enough of it by FotJ to be beyond Valkorion, perhaps substantially.



If all we knew about Luke were that he were a Force sensitive former farmboy, sure. But the information about his potential, his feats and his accolades outweigh that disparity.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo

Vader has the bettet feats, (collapsing Cathedrals while half dead, decades before his prime) the better accolades, ( being stated as one of the most powerful Sith/ Force sensitive ever, 80% Palpatine's power, being the second most being in a galaxy that includes Gethzerion, Joruus C'baoth, Black Hole, etc) And even with his potential cut down -- he's still the Chosen One.

So how is the analogy bad?

He doesn't necessarily have better accolades, he just has more - Tenebrous's accolade from the Rule of Two powerscaling is more powerful.

No, it doesn't.

Being 80% Palpatine's power > shitty RoT speculation. Not to mention, the whole argument hinges on where one ranks Darth Bane in relation to Vader from the get- go.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Vader being at 80% of his potential would still be 60% more powerful than Sidious, making this argument ****ing retarded no matter how you spin it.

You're obviously not following the discussion, because that's not my argument. Nowhere did I or Lucas say Vader's potential become 80% of his former potential (200% of Sidious'). I interpreted that quote as saying Vader's potential went from being 200% of Sidious' to 80% of Sidious'. It's pretty clear what Lucas said; we're just discussing what he means by it.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
He doesn't necessarily have better accolades, he just has more - Tenebrous's accolade from the Rule of Two powerscaling is more powerful.

ROT powerscaling only makes sense if we had any idea how powerful any of the of the other Banite Sith are. We have no idea how powrrful they are but per demonstrations of their power we know Vader and Plagueis are leagues above them in the force. Vader also is still the chosen one and still had vastly better force feats than even his Younger self who decimated Dooku, quantifiably there isn't much of a basis to suggest Tenebrous can beat Vader when Vader can be easily suggested to have been superior to everyone from Bane onward given his showings and his accolades

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Earth to moron; my point was none of this proves Tenebrous is above Vader at all. Literally, none of it does. It's all speculation and nothing definitive. Use you brain for once, sweety.

Do you really want to talk about using a brain? You're still calling this speculation when it's proven that Tenebrous is more powerful than any of his predecessors and spent over a hundred years studying the dark side. It's not hard to imagine that he mastered his potential, and that's all I was saying since you implied that the RoT quotes referred to raw and not mastered power.

Now, as you mentioned in one of your later posts, this does hinge on where you rank Bane, which, last I checked, wasn't very far from Vader. The idea that nine centuries and thirty or so generations of improvements doesn't bring Tenebrous above Vader is pretty laughable.

Carthage has Vader way above Bane, so it's not that implausible that he still has Vader above Tenebrous. But you? Unless you've changed your stance on the matter, you have Bane reasonably close to Vader, which means Tenebrous has to be more powerful than Vader. I'm fine with you putting Vader over Tenebrous if you suddenly think that Vader >>>>>>>> Bane.



That's your interpretation. Moreover, we don't know what Valkorion's raw power/potential is in relation to Sidious'.

You're putting words in my mouth, by the way. I never said time spent studying the Force solely determines your power. Another crucial factor is the cap you have on your power as well - ie. potential. If Valkorion doesn't have the potential of Luke or Sidious, he can spend as much time as he wants studying the Force and he won't get there. Studying the Force allows you to realize your potential, not transcend it.



Based on what? What proves that Valkorion's raw power is a rival for Luke's? As you just said, Valkorion had a much, much longer time to hone his powers, so if his feats are only roughly a match for Luke's, then by this logic, Valkorion's potential is nowhere near Luke's.



That you can so quickly dismiss people's arguments as cancer and garbage and what not and still not know what their actual argument is is laughable.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Being 80% Palpatine's power > shitty RoT speculation. Not to mention, the whole argument hinges on where one ranks Darth Bane in relation to Vader from the get- go.

You haven't been able to quantify what 80% of Palpatine's power is, so no, it doesn't put him above Tenebrous. You've avoided telling me what 80% of Sidious' power is the whole time and yet you're still bringing it up.

My point is: this brand of speculation is far more flimsily than the norm. Feats are completely thrown out of the window, as well accolades pretty much. It's basically built on pure power-scaling, and nothing more.



Not really a double standard, as Nova agrees that Luke and Valkorion does indeed share parity. I was just applying the Tenebrous > Vader argument, to the Valkorion < Luke one.

Originally posted by carthage
ROT powerscaling only makes sense if we had any idea how powerful any of the of the other Banite Sith are.

We have enough feats for Bane, Zannah, Plagueis and Sidious; we have the endpoints and the number of sith in-between, so we can divide and estimate where Tenebrous would be.

He's almost certainly closer to Plagueis than he is to Bane, and even though you think Bane is weak, if he's Qui-Gon level I still don't think Tenebrous should be below Vader. That would leave too little room to squeeze in the other 27 or so.



Again, just because Tenebrous is an unknown doesn't mean he's weak. We need to make an educated guess, which is better than just assuming he's below Vader because Vader has more written about him.

I could point to Tenebrous's insights into midichlorians, which suggest some level of refinement over the Force. It isn't his fault that there wasn't really anybody to duel with.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
He doesn't necessarily have better accolades, he just has more - Tenebrous's accolade from the Rule of Two powerscaling is more powerful.

Composite showings have Sidious in Tarkin calling Vader unsurpassed by his predecessors, have Filoni calling Rebels Vader his peak I,e superior to the same Anakin that bested Dooku, all on top of Vader's accolades of being the most powerful Sith Lords in history in Legends. The aggregate of Vaders showings as a character place him above Tenebrous, even if you're not sure by how much. How familiar are you with Vader's more recent showings?

Originally posted by carthage
Composite showings have Sidious in Tarkin calling Vader unsurpassed by his predecessors,

That's canon Vader.



Sure, he's "one of the most powerful Sith Lords in history". So is Ventress. So is Malgus. So is Bane. And so is almost certainly Tenebrous, if he's a generation below Plagueis who was stated by the publisher's blurb to be the most powerful to his time.

But if Tenebrous is too far below Plagueis, then it's tough to do that through 1000 years without putting Bane at like a padawan's level.



Where do you place Tenebrous, then?

Originally posted by SunRazer
You're obviously not following the discussion, because that's not my argument. Nowhere did I or Lucas say Vader's potential become 80% of his former potential (200% of Sidious'). I interpreted that quote as saying Vader's potential went from being 200% of Sidious' to 80% of Sidious'. It's pretty clear what Lucas said; we're just discussing what he means by it.
Oh. In that case, I agree with DC. That's some pure unadulterated cancer that you pulled out of your ass.

Whatever.

Even if it was 80% of Sidious' power, somebody has to define that (and then prove whatever they think 80% of Sidious' power is) before we can start using that in threads, and absolutely nobody's done that yet.

Tenebrous could be 45% of Sidious' power, 53%, 66%, 73% or 88% of Sidious' power. Heck, Vader could just be unlucky because Tenebrous turns out to be 81% of Sidious' power. We have no idea where anybody else is (percentage-wise) in relation to Sidious, so saying that Vader being 80% of Sidious puts him definitively above Tenebrous is a ***** of a leap of faith, and one that'll probably end with you falling into a ditch.

Razer is right that the 80% potential thing is worthless.

And just to drive it home, Lucas himself compares Vader more to Maul and Dooku than to Palpatine, so he's better off being scaled relative to them than to Palpatine. I believe many of you have Bane as more powerful than Maul/Dooku, or at least very close to them. Tenebrous is the beneficiary of nine centuries/thirty generations of improvements over Bane, which is unquestionably far above Maul and Dooku. That you so dogmatically believe that a character of that power class can't possibly be more powerful than Vader is ****ing laughable.

And some of the people who lowball Tenebrous in turn have the audacity to wank the Ancient Sith.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
And some of the people who lowball Tenebrous in turn have the audacity to wank the Ancient Sith.

Kek