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Round 1: Lightsabers only

Round 2: All out fight

Duel takes place on Korriban

Can Vader resist Meetra's drain?

Vader can't handle that drain son.

Vader stomps.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Vader can't handle that drain son.
Pretty sure even you can handle something that doesn't exist.

Oh yeah I forgot Surik can't even Drain beings noticeably less potent than Vader who do not share his knowledge of Drain Resistence. He wins, every time.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Pretty sure even you can handle something that doesn't exist.

Nah. The mere concept/idea would overwhelm me.

Vader's TK is strong enough that it's basically an insta-kill against Meetra anyway.

Lol he's not one-shotting Meetra with TK when Nyriss, Atris and Traya all failed to kill her with Force powers. Vader obviously wins this fight but she's obviously putting up a much better fight than Kento f#cking Marek did. There is, as I've said before, no reason to think Surik can't do what Tano did, if not even better.

I don't think resisting Atris' powers will form the basis of a good argument against resisting Vader's powers.

Did I list only Atris? Ehom by the way was weolding FLS and Drain Life against Meetra throughout their fights but that didn't stop Meetra beatong her in sabers anyway.

Regardless, Traya's FLS/Drain/TK couldn't take out Surik. Nyriss just about floored her with lightning so potent that she surpassed any of Bane's showings with Force lightning.

I'm not saying Meetra wins Force at all, but claiming Vader one-shots with TK is straight up retarded.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Lol he's not one-shotting Meetra with TK when Nyriss, Atris and Traya all failed to kill her with Force powers.

Nyriss only failed to kill her because Revan saved her ass. That loss, mind you, is one of the most major character downgrades of all time, given that Nyriss clearly isn't in the same tier as Vader, and yet her charged attack still would've killed Meetra.



That was Vader more than two decades before his prime, and quite frankly, there's no reason to assume that Kento is weak. Wasn't he pulling down tie fighters or something?



You're mixing Legends and Disney canon.

I know you guys have Vader way above Traya, but if Traya couldn't beat Surik on a "colossal geyser of dark side energies" with the Force, then it's hard to see Vader one-shotting a more powerful Surik.

I mean it's pretty much widely observed that Nyriss > Bane > Dooku in terms of lightning feats, so she is pretty much one of the most deadly lightning practitioners we've ever seen.

Still only floored a hindered Meetra, who only raised an instinctive Force barrier instead of Tutaminis to protect herself.

Originally posted by AncientPower
I mean it's pretty much widely observed that Nyriss > Bane > Dooku in terms of lightning feats, so she is pretty much one of the most deadly lightning practitioners we've ever seen.


Even if that were true, it's pretty much widely observed that Galen >>>>>> Nyriss in terms of lightning feats, and prime Vader is his superior, so it hardly matters.



So? Vader's telekinesis is significantly more potent. His feats surpass Revan Reborn's, and it's pretty clear from their respective performances against Nyriss that Revan could've annihilated Meetra with a finger.

For the people who pull the nexus argument on Bane so often, you guys really don't seem to appreciate the nexus hindering Meetra during most of her feats.

That's because it wasn't hindering her.
Originally posted by SunRazer
I know you guys have Vader way above Traya, but if Traya couldn't beat Surik on a "colossal geyser of dark side energies" with the Force, then it's hard to see Vader one-shotting a more powerful Surik.
Surik is also a better combatant than Traya, and drew most of her power from her.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I know you guys have Vader way above Traya, but if Traya couldn't beat Surik on a "colossal geyser of dark side energies" with the Force, then it's hard to see Vader one-shotting a more powerful Surik.
Vader is so far above Traya it's comical.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
That's because it wasn't hindering her.

Meetra Surik > FOTJ Luke Skywalker confirmed.

Also: Vader oneshots.

Cancer.

Probably with lightning, too.

He couldn't even one-shot Kento Marek or the Dark Woman, Skillz going full retard again.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Also: Vader oneshots.

Yep, I'm going full retard everybody, just as stated by Meetra Surik AP herself.

Originally posted by carthage


Quality thread.

Because you don't have any argument and haven't countered with one at all. Retarded. Vader isn't one-shotting, at all.

How retarded of you to think that a full retard like me even knows who Darth Vader is.

AP is right it's not like a far inferior force use nearly destroyed her or anything

Nearly? Lmfao.

Lol @ Nyriss being far inferior to Vader.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Ehom
weolding
beatong.

And yet you insult my grammar.

Vader wrecks

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
That's because it wasn't hindering her.

Surik is also a better combatant than Traya, and drew most of her power from her.

The Bond goes both ways.

The bond doesn't even work like that unless we assume dark side Exile.

She instinctively draws upon its power. That said, whether or not the Bond remained as of the final duel is questionable. Surik suffers no side effects in cutting off Traya's hand and even killing her.

Surik would overcome him in sabers.

She instinctively bonds and draws from the death she causes which slowly but surely restored her connection to the Force, this was still happening beyond her battle with Traya as Darth Sion concludes that Surik had the potential to surpass Darth Traya.

The years following Malachor V saw Meetra lead the reestablishment of the Jedi Order to a triumphant return to the Jedi Temple. She trained many new apprentices in that time and so obviously had much experience and wisdom to fulfill whatever potential remained in her.

Meetra isn't some constant draining presence in the way she is misrepresented, the context of all those statements about her bond and draining ability only leads to the full restoration of her ability in the Force. Zez-Kai Ell explains that, but everybody loves ignoring it.

The Dark Side Exile can infact properly drain from her friends and foes alike, becoming far stronger.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Surik would overcome him in sabers.

Gross

KMC you make me lose faith in humanity sometimes

A thread this retarded should have died long ago.

Meetra. Vader can't hope to win when the Exile can anaylse, predict and mimic everything he'll do.

Nor is Vader ragdolling when Nyriss couldn't who has better lighting feats than Darth Sidious.

I hope you're joking

When do I ever joke.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Meetra Surik > FOTJ Luke Skywalker confirmed.
Yeah, if they were comparable in any way.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Vader stomps.

Vader ragdolls her before throwing out his "all too easy" line.

Meetra drains him.

Originally posted by Chosen_Sith
Vader ragdolls her before throwing out his "all too easy" line.

Straight up illogical.

Indeed. Vader ragdolls Starkiller, but can't ragdoll Meetra. Makes more sense.

Hey! Meetra pushed a guy and pushed a lightsaber, how can Vader compete?

Originally posted by MythLord
Hey! Meetra pushed a guy and pushed a lightsaber, how can Vader compete?

He beat a guy who could barely pull out his lightsaber from snow.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Lol @ Nyriss being far inferior to Vader. This is disgusting. Stahp.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Indeed. Vader ragdolls Starkiller, but can't ragdoll Meetra. Makes more sense. To be fair, Marek also ragdolled him, Starkiller just lightning'd him.

No he didn't.

Syndicate argues that he did because while enraged he stunned Vader briefly then pelted him with objects.

Starkiller has had his defenses pressed by fugging Shadow Guards and Felucians ffs.

Vader isn't ragdoll/stomping at all, the Rebels wank is white hot I see.

Right. What does Vader have to suggest he can ragdoll beings that can push humans or push lightsabers. I mean, Meetra stomped an army of Sith, whereas Vader fled from an army of simple villagers once.

AP lowballs Galen when trying to shit on Vader, but doesn't when she wanks Shaak. Interesting mmm

Originally posted by AncientPower
Starkiller has had his defenses pressed by fugging Shadow Guards and Felucians ffs.

Vader isn't ragdoll/stomping at all, the Rebels wank is white hot I see.

Vader simply has superior feats in comparison to Meetra Surik. His force displays, we can easily measure, and it doesn't matter if it's because Vader has more exposure or not we have access to them and they far outstrip what Meetra has shown. Surik lost a two versus one against Nyriss and you won't find many who will then make the argument that Nyriss > Vader.

Vader: All too easy.

Ngl, AP's right, the idea that Vader would ragdoll is beyond clinically retarded.

The Idea of Vader wining at all is retarded.

After the Jedi Purge, he's fighting scrub-remnants left over from the weakest lightsaber-era in republic history, and stalemating old Ben. While Meetra is slaughtering leagions of people who could potentially be on (or near about) Maul's level.

Originally posted by Selenial
Ngl, AP's right, the idea that Vader would ragdoll is beyond clinically retarded.

Kill yourself before you fall any further.

Originally posted by Selenial
Ngl, AP's right, the idea that Vader would ragdoll is beyond clinically retarded.

Your palpable obsession with Meetra aside, she is visibly weaker than Nyriss, who in turn essentially gets one-shotted by Revan Reborn, who is weaker than Vader, so yeah, she probably does get one-shotted.

I mean, what game do you want to play here? Accolades? Feats? *Eyes Galen Marek respect thread* Neither is gonna do you any good.

Thinking Vader doesn't ragdoll is not even cancerous, cancer takes time to kill. It's equivalent of straight up drinking 1L of hydrogen cyanide.

Cancer doesn't take time to kill when it's already taken over your body.

Atris can't even penetrate her defenses, nevermind ragdoll Meetra. Amped Traya can't ragdoll Meetra on a massive geyser of dark side energy, despite telekinetically flattening the High Council without gesturing. An Amped Nyriss could temporarily put a hindered Meetra down, who was using only an indtinctive barrier, with Bane tier lightning.

I'd mention Nihilus placing Meetra in statis but he's far beyond Vader in the first place. If Traya and Nyriss, two Sith approaching Vader in power, if not equating him, couldn't just ragdoll a hindered Meetra. Vader fugging isn't.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Atris can't even penetrate her defenses, nevermind ragdoll Meetra. Amped Traya can't ragdoll Meetra on a massive geyser of dark side energy, despite telekinetically flattening the High Council without gesturing. An Amped Nyriss could temporarily put a hindered Meetra down, who was using only an indtinctive barrier, with Bane tier lightning.

I'd mention Nihilus placing Meetra in statis but he's far beyond Vader in the first place. If Traya and Nyriss, two Sith approaching Vader in power, if not equating him, couldn't just ragdoll a hindered Meetra. Vader fugging isn't.

Lol, nyriss and Traya are not Vader level.

> Traya and Nyriss
> approaching Vader in power

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/000/554/facepalm.jpg

Kek, Vrook stasis'd her ass.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
AP lowballs Galen when trying to shit on Vader, but doesn't when she wanks Shaak. Interesting mmm

I'm not lowballing or shitting on anyone, so you can end that Legend brand of hypocrisy right there.

Galen Marek has never had particularly impressive Force defenses against actual Force users. So using him is completely irrelevant to someone with better defensive showings in Force combat than him. Rahm Kota and Kazdan Paratus both come to mind immediately.

But considering what I just posted above, you've got nothing more than a psuedo-fallacious comparison to Galen Marek to go off.

Here's the golden nugget: You've all lowballed the Exile so hard that you've blinded yourself to the actual facts and decreed all of Kotor 2 is shit, when sourcebooks and even fugging TOR completely disagree with your arbitrary presumptions based solely on an era bias.

Well your shit ain't flying with me little boy.

AP slaughtering tbh///

Meetra's good, like Qui Gon level. That doesn't mean Vader isn't ragdolling her lel.

Originally posted by AncientPower
I'm not lowballing or shitting on anyone, so you can end that Legend brand of hypocrisy right there.

Galen Marek has never had particularly impressive Force defenses against actual Force users. So using him is completely irrelevant to someone with better defensive showings in Force combat than him. Rahm Kota and Kazdan Paratus both come to mind immediately.

But considering what I just posted above, you've got nothing more than a psuedo-fallacious comparison to Galen Marek to go off.

Here's the golden nugget: You've all lowballed the Exile so hard that you've blinded yourself to the actual facts and decreed all of Kotor 2 is shit, when sourcebooks and even fugging TOR completely disagree with your arbitrary presumptions based solely on an era bias.

Well your shit ain't flying with me little boy.

Revan and Vader are pretty damn close together. Meetra is not on Revan's level. Not even close. The novel makes that clear as day. Kreia mentioned that looking into Revan's eyes was like staring into the heart of the force. By her own admission she's nothing in comparison to him.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Kek, Vrook stasis'd her ass.

Because the Exile was defending herself in that non-canon iteration. An iteration just as valid as Meetra killing all of them. Also it was all three of them using their powers. As they literally repeat three times in dialogue throughout the game.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
AP lowballs Galen when trying to shit on Vader, but doesn't when she wanks Shaak. Interesting mmm

Interesting observation.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Meetra's good, like Qui Gon level. That doesn't mean Vader isn't ragdolling her lel.

Traya would turn Qui-Gon into a blind, deaf coma patient with utter ease.

Traya's spirit, which was being leeched off of by Darth Baras, was seen as a pure expression of dark side energy by Vowrawn, that the Wrath states is more alive with the dark side than anything he'd ever seen before.

But sure she's just Dooku tier.

Originally posted by Chosen_Sith
Revan and Vader are pretty damn close together. Meetra is not on Revan's level. Not even close. The novel makes that clear as day. Kreia mentioned that looking into Revan's eyes was like staring into the heart of the force. By her own admission she's nothing in comparison to him.

Nah, Reborn Revan absorbing lightning far beyond Bane's tier and then absorbing a ton of Vitiate's lightning later, then still having enough power to heal himself almost completely right afterwards... pretty much shits on anything Vader ever did in a Force exchange tbh.

Vader wins a good fight, but he's not ragdolling.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Traya's spirit, which was being leeched off of by Darth Baras, was seen as a pure expression of dark side energy by Vowrawn, that the Wrath states is more alive with the dark side than anything he'd ever seen before.

But sure she's just Dooku tier.

That isn't even confirmed to be Traya's spirit. Drew Karpyshin believes it is, but he had nothing to do with writting the story for the Sith Warrior class and thus his observation of that is his opinion and his conjecture, which he noted at least twice shouldn't be taken as canon.

Originally posted by AncientPower
vague hype

How does any of this change the fact that Meetra is weaker than someone who could get oneshotted by someone who is still weaker than Vader?

Originally posted by AncientPower
Traya would turn Qui-Gon into a blind, deaf coma patient with utter ease.

Traya's spirit, which was being leeched off of by Darth Baras, was seen as a pure expression of dark side energy by Vowrawn, that the Wrath states is more alive with the dark side than anything he'd ever seen before.

But sure she's just Dooku tier.

Vowrawn who got punked by a mercenary. More alive with the dark side =/= powerful. It's a comment about how ingrained in the dark side her spirit is. Remember, you can also comment on how weak/decrepit she is as well. You can't use a conversation choice to confirm your thoughts on the matter while ignoring other conversation options that are just as valid as a choice. No, Kreia is not Vader level and her feats/accolades/showings don't add up either to make me believe it. Again, we have the Revan novel and we know where Meetra stands in the grand scheme of things. Which is far below Revan.

Do I need to repeat the all too easy line again? I'm starting to think I need to repeat the all too easy line.

His opinion, when he was there at Bioware writing what was essentially the primary class story. Also, the description of the Entity in her Codex Entry is even more obviously Traya than Arren Kae. Kek.



The fact all you can reply with is that, is pretty telling tbh.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
How does any of this change the fact that Meetra is weaker than someone ona dark side nexus, who could get oneshotted by someone who is still clearly more powerful than Vader?

I mean Revan being < Vader is pretty kek worthy in and of itself.

The TOR re-uprising has begun...

Originally posted by AncientPower
I mean Revan being < Vader is pretty kek worthy in and of itself.

I don't recall anyone claiming Revan to be less than Vader.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
The TOR re-uprising has begun...

Hardly. Not many around here take AP seriously from my browsing.

Originally posted by Chosen_Sith
Vowrawn who got punked by a mercenary. More alive with the dark side =/= powerful. It's a comment about how ingrained in the dark side her spirit is. Remember, you can also comment on how weak/decrepit she is as well. You can't use a conversation choice to confirm your thoughts on the matter while ignoring other conversation options that are just as valid as a choice. No, Kreia is not Vader level and her feats/accolades/showings don't add up either to make me believe it. Again, we have the Revan novel and we know where Meetra stands in the grand scheme of things. Which is far below Revan.

Do I need to repeat the all too easy line again? I'm starting to think I need to repeat the all too easy line.

You can call her a 'means to Baras' end' or basically dismiss her for being dead. Doesn't negate the other option whatsoever.

Kreia stomped three very powerful Jedi High Council members with complete contemptuous ease. Yeh, that's easily Vader tier.

Originally posted by AncientPower
I mean Revan being < Vader is pretty kek worthy in and of itself.

If Revan has blown apart a cruiser, taken out hundreds of storm troopers with a single force push, one-shotted AT-ATs, and redirected a star destroyer, he might be able to match Vader years before his prime.

Originally posted by Chosen_Sith
I don't recall anyone claiming Revan to be less than Vader.

Have you even been reading Ell's posts?

Originally posted by AncientPower
You can call her a 'means to Baras' end' or basically dismiss her for being dead. Doesn't negate the other option whatsoever.

Kreia stomped three very powerful Jedi High Council members with complete contemptuous ease. Yeh, that's easily Vader tier.

Those Jedi High Council Members barely have any worthy feats to their names. Vader could easily do the same. Note when I say worthy feats I'm talking about something that would actually give Vader some pause.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Have you even been reading Ell's posts?

To be honest? No.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
If Revan has blown apart a cruiser, taken out hundreds of storm troopers with a single force push, one-shotted AT-ATs, and redirected a star destroyer, he might be able to match Vader years before his prime.

I'll leave you for Ant, God be with you.

Originally posted by Chosen_Sith
Hardly. Not many around here take AP seriously from my browsing.

Who the hell are you to begin with?

Originally posted by AncientPower
I'll leave you for Ant, God be with you.

Ant is on ignore, but that's OK since his last argument against Vader was that The Force Unleashed can't be used for feats.

But I'll take your concession with stride.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Who the hell are you to begin with?

Someone who has browsed these forums for ages. By forums I don't mean just the star wars section. As for Darthant? I don't think he agrees Nyriss = Darth Vader. Maybe I'm wrong.

Note when I dismissed you I don't consider myself any more important on these forums. I'd hope to be acknowledged as an educated newbie but it could be wishful thinking.

Originally posted by Chosen_Sith
Those Jedi High Council Members barely have any worthy feats to their names. Vader could easily do the same. Note when I say worthy feats I'm talking about something that would actually give Vader some pause.

You really should pay attention to Beni.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Ant is on ignore, but that's OK since his last argument against Vader was that The Force Unleashed can't be used for feats.

But I'll take your concession with stride.

You want me to concede on an ultimately irrelevant point? That desperate.

Originally posted by AncientPower
You really should pay attention to Beni.

Does Beniboybling consider Kreia to be Vader level?

Irrelevant to the point that Meetra is in Revan's oneshot territory? Yeah, it's not like that would imply Vader could if you concede Vader's superiority or anything.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Your palpable obsession with Meetra aside, she is visibly weaker than Nyriss, who in turn essentially gets one-shotted by Revan Reborn, who is weaker than Vader, so yeah, she probably does get one-shotted.

I mean, what game do you want to play here? Accolades? Feats? *Eyes Galen Marek respect thread* Neither is gonna do you any good.

Oh cool, so we're taking Vader on his death bed after being slaughtered with lightning? I'll make sure to start using Old Ben in any thread that mentions Kenobi from now on too. I apparently didn't get the memo that we used the latest character we see, and not their prime anymore

What phenomenal logic

The fact is, after fighting through a Legion of Sith Assassins, Sion four seperate times and Storm Beasts that can crush a Jedi even through armour plating while hindered by a gravity well and mental torture (something essential to a Jedi's ability to call on the force) she wasn't ragdolled by Traya, or even defeated with the Force. This being the woman who dominates Jedi Council members, strikes fear into the heart of Darth Nihilus and force Crushes the strongest Sith in the empire (Nihilus and Visas) without a gesture. This being the woman with stronger sense feats than even Yoda, and control feats that rival the strongest of the Sith.

A sense of evidence is not evidence of absense. A prime Meetra may not have outrageous force feats given the medium she's portrayed in, but she's certainly showed she won't be ragdolled by Vader, especially given his own showings against inferior opponents.

Originally posted by Selenial
Oh cool, so we're taking Vader on his death bed after being slaughtered with lightning? I'll make sure to start using Old Ben in any thread that mentions Kenobi from now on too. I apparently didn't get the memo that we used the latest character we see, and not their prime anymore

What phenomenal logic

The fact is, after fighting through a Legion of Sith Assassins, Sion four seperate times and Storm Beasts that can crush a Jedi even through armour plating while hindered by a gravity well and mental torture (something essential to a Jedi's ability to call on the force) she wasn't ragdolled by Traya, or even defeated with the Force. This being the woman who dominates Jedi Council members, strikes fear into the heart of Darth Nihilus and force Crushes the strongest Sith in the empire (Nihilus and Visas) without a gesture. This being the woman with stronger sense feats than even Yoda, and control feats that rival the strongest of the Sith.

A sense of evidence is not evidence of absense. A prime Meetra may not have outrageous force feats given the medium she's portrayed in, but she's certainly showed she won't be ragdolled by Vader, especially given his own showings against inferior opponents.

Selenial, by this post it seems to me that you believe Meetra as of Revan isn't her strongest incarnation. This isn't bait, I'm above that nonsense; can you give me evidence or proof that the exile isn't at her strongest incarnation in the Revan novel? Once this is confirmed we can focus on using KOTOR 2 in it's entirety. A lot of my beef in this thread is with the assumption that Nyriss is Vader tier when there's literally no evidence for this. If we can establish that Kreia is above Nyriss and that the exile isn't at her strongest incarnation here we can give a more fair debate regarding her abilities. That fair?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Irrelevant to the point that Meetra is in Revan's oneshot territory? Yeah, it's not like that would imply Vader could if you concede Vader's superiority or anything.

Because Vader isn't superior, or even equal. He's never dealt with lightning that can ash two powerful Force users. Nevermind absorbing and returning. nfact the only time he faced a tier of lightning that deadly, he died.

Then we have Vitiate who'd easily kill Vader or Starkiller with an FLS.

Originally posted by Chosen_Sith
Selenial, by this post it seems to me that you believe Meetra as of Revan isn't her strongest incarnation. This isn't bait, I'm above that nonsense; can you give me evidence or proof that the exile isn't at her strongest incarnation in the Revan novel? Once this is confirmed we can focus on using KOTOR 2 in it's entirety. A lot of my beef in this thread is with the assumption that Nyriss is Vader tier when there's literally no evidence for this. If we can establish that Kreia is above Nyriss and that the exile isn't at her strongest incarnation here we can give a more fair debate regarding her abilities. That fair?

Well I'm on my phone right now so I can't post the quote, but the Exile is stated to have healed her wound after the end of the game, during her rebuilding of the Jedi Order.

Some don't take that to mean she got weaker, but given the wound was the literal source of her power, and given the stark power differences displayed, it seems by far the most logical conclusion.

It's interesting watching which side people tend to fall on. It's almost entirely dependent on which era they tend to favour.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Because Vader isn't superior, or even equal. He's never dealt with lightning that can ash two powerful Force users. Nevermind absorbing and returning. nfact the only time he faced a tier of lightning that deadly, he died.

Then we have Vitiate who'd easily kill Vader or Starkiller with an FLS.

You just said this discussion was irrelevant, kek.

Vaporizing people? You do realize that Starkiller has vaporized a 300 meter long cruiser, right?

That's if you ignore the fact she had years to, in Sion's eyes, surpass Traya herself.

Originally posted by Selenial
Well I'm on my phone right now so I can't post the quote, but the Exile is stated to have healed her wound after the end of the game, during her rebuilding of the Jedi Order.

Some don't take that to mean she got weaker, but given the wound was the literal source of her power, and given the stark power differences displayed, it seems by far the most logical conclusion.

It's interesting watching which side people tend to fall on. It's almost entirely dependent on which era they tend to favour.

That's fair. I don't know what to make of that to be honest. I tend to think I don't favor any specific era. Typically I can pick any era while believing myself to debate from a neutral perspective. I'm in the.. "Most era's are pretty comparable in different regards" to other eras. There are exceptions, of course, such as the fact no one in Bane's era could hope to contend with Valkorion or Sidious. That being said, I take offense to the idea of there being "Many random Vader tier opponents." even if that's not the argument being made on hand.

So more to my curiosity where do you stand on Vader vs Kreia?

Originally posted by AncientPower
That's if you ignore the fact she had years to, in Sion's eyes, surpass Traya herself.

Let's assume for a moment, regarding Selenial's analysis, that Meetra was more powerful as a wound in the force. That she healed it and then lost a considerable amount of her power or at least enough to be noticeable. Wouldn't Sion be basing his analysis on her with the wound? Without the wound would she have the same potential?

Or are you two on a different page on how you rank the character?

Vader still ragdolls.

Originally posted by Chosen_Sith
That's fair. I don't know what to make of that to be honest. I tend to think I don't favor any specific era. Typically I can pick any era while believing myself to debate from a neutral perspective. I'm in the.. "Most era's are pretty comparable in different regards" to other eras. There are exceptions, of course, such as the fact no one in Bane's era could hope to contend with Valkorion or Sidious. That being said, I take offense to the idea of there being "Many random Vader tier opponents." even if that's not the argument being made on hand.

We are two pages of the same book, you and me.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
You just said this discussion was irrelevant, kek.

Vaporizing people? You do realize that Starkiller has vaporized a 300 meter long cruiser, right?

Did you just legitimately equate what a Force user can do to inanimate objrcts with what they can do against other Force users?

Good God.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Did you just legitimately equate what a Force user can do to inanimate objrcts with what they can do against other Force users?

Good God.

Yeah, go ahead and claim that novel Scourge could tank a cruiser vaporizing blast.

You know you could just claim he superman lazored the thing at this rate, given how badly you're misrepresenting that feat.

How about a taste of your own fallacy? Seems appropriate:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111178634/4324575-shaak+ti+tutaminis+2.gif

So the great unmatched Force lightning of Galen Marek... can be blocked by Shaak Ti. I'm sure Nyriss is shaking in her boots, given she is powerful enough to incinerate a very powerful Sith Lord in Lord Scourge, who tanked Darth Xedrix's lightning and then cut Xedrix down, and a hindered Meetra Surik who has tanked Force lightning Storms from Darth Traya and Atris.

Because apparently, I haven't provided any evidence, let's begin shall we:

The Exile is indicated to be capable of blocking an 'onslaught' of lightsaber attacks, with her Force barrier:



Whilst hindered by a 'massive geyser of dark side energy', Meetra Surik is indicated to be capable of defending against Sion's lightsaber attacks and Force drain:


Atris is stated to be no match for the Jedi Exile's lightsaber prowess, indicating that her potent Force drain, telekinesis and Force lightning storm powers aren't enough to defeat Meetra:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/4813302-3023729627-v995d.gif



NOTE: Atris doesn't even gesture when she opens, closes and seals those massive (presumably) durasteel doors with telekinesis. A nice comparison could be made here:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111137054/3782469-windu+force+2.gif





Darth Traya, despite being more powerful is still defeated by the Exile, despite utilising her vast telekinetic powers:







She has pretty ridiculous defensive feats with the Force, which makes sense given she has achieved such a great mastery of the Force:

Achieved the form of Force mastery:







Meetra Surik as a Jedi Master is stated to have gained supreme mastery over Force powers:



Meetra Surik achieved Enlightenment during the events of the Jedi Council meeting, increasing her presence in the Force, affording her greater augmentative and defensive prowess:



This state of mind requires inner tranquility:



Meetra Surik's light side presence can passively increase the combat potential of her crew:



Meetra Surik has a high level mastery of the Force, an enlightened understanding of its nature and her presence in the Force had a palpable effect on others around her. Her defensive showings, even on an extremely powerful dark side nexus like Malachor V or Dromund Kaas, are very high tier showings.

Originally posted by AncientPower
You know you could just claim he superman lazored the thing at this rate, given how badly you're misrepresenting that feat.

How about a taste of your own fallacy? Seems appropriate:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111178634/4324575-shaak+ti+tutaminis+2.gif

So the great unmatched Force lightning of Galen Marek... can be blocked by Shaak Ti. I'm sure Nyriss is shaking in her boots, given she is powerful enough to incinerate a very powerful Sith Lord in Lord Scourge, who tanked Darth Xedrix's lightning and then cut Xedrix down, and a hindered Meetra Surik who has tanked Force lightning Storms from Darth Traya and Atris. Agreed, if even Shaak Ti can block his lightning it must be pretty trashy.

He's got pretty great lightning feats, but nothing compared to Nyriss' own lightning feats in a proper Force combat.

An Exhausted/injured and mentally hindered Kylo Ren can do the same thing, not very impressive and won't save her from getting ragdolled



Which again would mean something if Sion was comparable to Vader in anything. Resisting a force technique that he's shown no aptitude for doesn't mean she can resist someone who can melt durasteel, wield Freighters like toys, and can hurl platforms that can support Starships. Vader would implode Sion with a gesture, or literally just will him to stop living considering he's only known for being a peon



Half of the force powers you listed only occur in gameplay or exist in Prima sourcebook entries, who cares if she resists techniques that have no real gauge for how powerful they are. OMG she closed a door with TK, Jacen Solo in Traitor after wandering Coruscant for days slammed larger Durasteel doors that enclosed back an entire Senate chamber and Revan can do the same while drugged. Atris isn't even Darach tier in force abilities

Everything else you listed is just sourcebook entries with no bearing in feats she's performed in combat. We know she can't resist high power force attacks as Nyriss literally put her on her ass, Vader's telekinesis is so far above Nyriss's lightning its not worth a comparison. So how exactly does she resist having her neck snapped other than "Resisting" weaker Force user's attacks mainly in gameplay


Originally posted by AncientPower
He's got pretty great lightning feats, but nothing compared to Nyriss' own lightning feats in a proper Force combat.

Vader can implode massive insects who can crush massive trees, repel blasterbolts, and have hides thicker and more durable than armor with a gesture, and he can melt durasteel by just being enraged, and crush TIE fighters. Nyriss's lightning is practically worthless in comparison to Vader's raw telekinetic power

Originally posted by |King Joker|
Agreed, if even Shaak Ti can block his lightning it must be pretty trashy. He heh.

So your entire argument is based on translating telekinetic effects on inanimate objects to what you can do in an actual Force exchange. That mixed with handwaving an entire list of accolades and techniques depicting how high tier the Exile's mastery of the Force has reached.

Darth Vader's telekinesis feats do not compare at all to incinerating two very powerful Force users in a Force exchange. Because, guess what genius, if he could translate his TK feats into actual domination in a Force exchange, he would be shredding Jedi alive with ease. Which everybody here knows isn't the case.

I could go around claiming that Meetra can shred groups of fodder with Stun 'n shit but I know that feats outside of an actual combat are irrelevant in the extreme.

You have all failed to show Vader dominating actual bonified Force users with actual Force feats that surpasses anything Traya did to the Jedi High Council or a dozen Sith Assassins, or to Darth Sion or the entire Ebon Hawk crew.

You've failed to bring up any actual bonified combat feats, besides Marek, that depict Vader being well beyond Nyriss as you claim, who puts almost all Sith in the mythos to shame with her Force lightning feats.

Until you've got an actual argument that suggests Vader is remotely ragdoll stomping such high tier Force users, I'll be waiting.

NOTE: I've been reading Vader content for the better half of two decades so you may as well give up now.

His most impressive combative feats are against his own apprentice, who has been matched by Shaak Ti in Force exchanges.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Because, guess what genius, if he could translate his TK feats into actual domination in a Force exchange, he would be shredding Jedi alive with ease. Which everybody here knows isn't the case.
https://media.makeameme.org/created/shes-right-you.jpg

Originally posted by AncientPower
NOTE: I've been reading Vader content for the better half of two decades so you may as well give up now.Give up now Carth, AP has all the gloss editions.

Whether or not they're inanimate makes zero difference, and Vader has choked and or affected Starkiller's force barrier with his TK, Dominate Ferus Olin with the force (Ferus can hurl Durasteel doors), and we know per accolades he's more powerful than the likes of Gethzerion, Lumiya, Jerec, Kar Vastor, and other darksiders active during the OT era:




Among other accolades that place him among the most powerful Sith lords in History and Palpatine calling his powers unparalleled.

He also doesn't need to shred them alive, the prompt was for anyone to suggest he can ragdoll her and he's honestly more than capable of that seeing as he's been able to affect the barriers of the likes of Ahsoka, Galen, Starkiller, and Ferus Olin.



They aren't irrelevant when the scale at which they operate are vastly above anything shown by the people she's come into contact with. Please show me anything to suggest Vader can't kill random Mook Jedi or Sith, when he;s affected the barriers of people I listed. Meetra's barrier utterly failed to protect her from a far inferior force user, so please show me anything that suggests she doesn't get tooled for a second time. Since her force barrier sucks and all




You mean the same lightning that put Meetra on her ass? You keep bringing up her lightning when she utterly pales in comparison to Vader in all aspects of the force whether its accolades, feats, not to mention how Nyriss has nothing else noteworthy to her name. I'm still waiting for you to show me anything on how she's a notable sorceress, oh wait she has no feats in that area!

You posted a gameplay gif of Shaak Ti absorbing lightning, which ok so what other force users can do the same with their sabers? Shaak Ti can't disintegrate frigates, blast holes through Corellian cruisers, or destroy so much rubble that it creates a cloud that soars over a planet. Galen as of his duel with Vader with decimate Shaak Ti or Nyriss

You really don't get it in so many ways.

Meetra isn't Ferus Olin or Starkiller, she's tanked attacks from Traya and ended her regardless. Traya easily stomping powerful Jedi Council members who are certainly not 'mooks' is well within Vader tier, no matter how badly you try and lowball the entire era.

Darth Nyriss' Bane+ tier lightning has kmocked Meetra over amd kept her down. Importantly you lack, as usual, any context in your arguments. Firstly, Meetra only raised an instinctual Force barrier to save herself from the worst of Nyriss' lightning. She didn't have any time to prepare a proper Tutaminis defensive and yet still held off lightning that has husked armoured guards. Perhaps even more importantly, this is a dark side nexus that has even hindered FOTJ Luke Skywalker, the most powerful Jedi in the mythos.

Treating that feat as anything less than pretty damn impressive is straight up ludicrous. Noting that Nyriss' lightning feats are easily comparable to Starkiller's, who has put Vader down repeatedly with lightning.

Apparently Traya Force Draining Council Masters who only have decent-ish feats in TK puts her on Vader's level.

The gap isn't as far as you guys make it out to be, but yeah, Traya's raw power isn't on Vader's level. Knowledge and mastery is a different story.

No dominating them with TK, without gesturing, be it in the original game or the cut content, is comparable. What has he done that far surpasses ragdolling three high tier masters of the Force, who are stated to be some of the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy?

Vader > Traya, obviously, but the idea that he's 'slaughtering' her or Nyriss is as stupid as him ragdoll stomping Meetra Surik.

Originally posted by MythLord
Apparently Traya Force Draining Council Masters who only have decent-ish feats in TK puts her on Vader's level.

lmao.

Three Council Members with solid Telekinesis feats were ragdolled by her. **** drain, drain isn't even relevant to her best feats.

The fact is, Traya isn't flashy. Traya has only appeared in a game. Traya doesn't dominate everyone she meets because she's subtle.

She has, however, killed a dozen Sith Assassins (who were Dark Jedi Masters in Revan's army, converted from the strongest military Jedi the galaxy has ever seen) without even a gesture. She's dominated every powerful force user she's ever met, bar Surik. That includes long-serving members of the council, the strongest Sith in Nihilus' entire empire, and Darth Sion.

Even outside the sphere of Alter, she has some of the greatest Sense feats in the mythos, rivalling Darth Caedus and Yoda. On Malachor, she dodged the strikes of a Jedi Guardian capable of blitzing five martial arts masters, while restrained and trying to save their lives.

Her upper limit has only ever been displayed by The Exile, so judging the Exile by calling Traya weak, and Traya by saying The Exile is featless is circular logic and nigh-retarded. Applying Nyriss as a measuring stick is also a fallacy, given Surik's loss of her greatest asset, and the fact Nyriss has only ever appeared in one source.

I don't think anyone's even saying Traya >= Vader, but she is certainly up there. And given the stipulations around the Malachor feat, it's applicable to a fight with Vader.

In fairness, her upper limit was also exposed when Nihilus and Sion turned on her.

That said, I've taken the stance that Nihilus (at the time, at least) wasn't above her in the way that everybody else suggests. If he was, why would he need Sion's help to take her down? Sources indicate that the two collectively took away her powers, and Traya's attention was clearly divided when Nihilus threw her into the wall.

You keep and have posted for pages now She's "IN VADER'S tier" without posting any feats to make your posts believable. These same masters have nothing going on for them other than shit like this:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/4434934-9190576012-Kz6aG.gif

HOLY **** HE SPUN HIS LIGHTSABER BLADE!

These guys have their pictures posted in the dictionary next to the term cannon fodder. Vader can choke SK who would vaporize Surik like a frigate, but she obviously can resist Sion so that means something, right?





Crumpling armor that can repel Turbolasers, shredding armored Vulture droids with a wave of his hand, and tearing apart AT-ATS are more impressive than ashifying non force sensitives- and Vader has replicate that on a greater scale by reducing Lyleks to blood mist. So please try to reason how random soldiers compares to destroying Durasteel and high grade spaceship armors, HINT it doesn't and Vader has destroyed objects more powerful than fleshy guards. There isn't much of a basis for Meetra being capable of resisting it, considering Vader's telekinetic powers are per showings more powerful than Nyriss's lightning, Meetra's showing of barrier suck, Vader has affected force users more powerful than Meetra, and per feats and accolades is more powerful than Meetra (Jerec, Gethzerion, and hell even Lumiya are all better force users).

Yes, but given Nihilus has killed numerous planets, that ain't exactly surprising.

Originally posted by SunRazer
In fairness, her upper limit was also exposed when Nihilus and Sion turned on her.

That said, I've taken the stance that Nihilus (at the time, at least) wasn't above her in the way that everybody else suggests. If he was, why would he need Sion's help to take her down? Sources indicate that the two collectively took away her powers, and Traya's attention was clearly divided when Nihilus threw her into the wall.

Agreed, though that also was not her prime.

I doubt it was either Nihilus or Sion's primes either, but point taken.

Once again, using feats not relevant to an actual Force exchange. Darth Nihilus has telekinetically torns fleets of ships out of orbit and killed planets. Even a weakened and starved version of him is ****ing crazy powerful and the Exile still defeats him with her and Visas' combined might.

Unless you can make an actual argument and not just lowball three extremely powerful Jedi Masters with mastery of the highest mysteries of the Force. Then you can just stop wasting my time.

You're the one wasting time by saying Traya is in or remotely close to Vader by dominating force users that even 19 BBY Vader would obliterate. Claiming they're powerful force users when their feats are twirling their lightsabers/Prima sourcebook entries s hilarious backtracking and not proof of anything. The fact is she got shat on by Nyriss who doesn't even register to Vader's force showings , so yeah I accept your concession she gets oneshot

You call that an argument? You just brain farted a post and pretended you achieved anything. The Jedi Masters are clearly very powerful, your lowballing changes nothing. Concession accepted.

Originally posted by Selenial
lmao.

Three Council Members with solid Telekinesis feats were ragdolled by her. **** drain, drain isn't even relevant to her best feats.

Cut-content, non-canon. By this logic, we should take into account Cin Drallig deflecting Anakin's Force Push, before throwing him several meters back, or Mace ragdolling Skywalker, or Kenobi pushing Dooku, or beating Saesee Tiin while a padawan, or Maul choking Sidious, etc. If it's cut content, then I don't see it as being legitimate. And what "solid" TK feats? Pushing a wookie and collectively stunning the Exile?

Originally posted by Selenial
She has, however, killed a dozen Sith Assassins (who were Dark Jedi Masters in Revan's army, converted from the strongest military Jedi the galaxy has ever seen) without even a gesture.

We actually don't know if she needed a gesture or not because we didn't see her kill them. We saw them approach her, it faded to black, then cut back and see they're all dead and Traya's just sorta there. Doesn't mean she even killed them with TK, it could've been Drain for all we know.

Originally posted by Selenial
She's dominated every powerful force user she's ever met, bar Surik. That includes long-serving members of the council, the strongest Sith in Nihilus' entire empire, and Darth Sion.

So beings that don't even approach Jax Pavan, who Vader ragdolled more than two decades before his prime, or Starkiller who Vader exchanged telekinetic blows with before his prime, or Gethzeroin, Jerec and Kar Vastor whom Vader has canonically surpassed? Good to know.

Originally posted by Selenial
Even outside the sphere of Alter, she has some of the greatest Sense feats in the mythos, rivalling Darth Caedus and Yoda. On Malachor, she dodged the strikes of a Jedi Guardian capable of blitzing five martial arts masters, while restrained and trying to save their lives.

Good sense and speed feats. Don't see how that affects TK in any way, but still -- good speed and sense feats.

Originally posted by Selenial
Her upper limit has only ever been displayed by The Exile, so judging the Exile by calling Traya weak, and Traya by saying The Exile is featless is circular logic and nigh-retarded. Applying Nyriss as a measuring stick is also a fallacy, given Surik's loss of her greatest asset, and the fact Nyriss has only ever appeared in one source.

Why are you telling me this, I claimed neither, lol. I'm just saying that Vader's feats are indeed enough to suggest he can throw Surik around, not that it's because Nyriss did it or because Traya is weak and the Exile is featless or whatever.

Originally posted by AncientPower
You call that an argument? You just brain farted a post and pretended you achieved anything. The Jedi Masters are clearly very powerful, your lowballing changes nothing. Concession accepted.

Agreed look at the sheer power of Vrook glowing

http://static5.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/12/124590/4434939-2889732015-KBr5n.gif

How the **** can Vader dominate such a being with that much power?!!?

Why do people keep saying it was the Council's collective might that stunned the Exile? It's clearly just Vrook who gestures.

Now I know you've lost, no argument, no stance, no defense, nothing. Something I am sure you're used to by now.

Its kind of hard to reply to your false equivalences, blatant inability to respond with comparable feats, and backtracking but ok. Traya beating up 3 guys a far weaker Force user than Vader could stomp >>> totes proof for your lack of ability to substantiate Traya = or close to Vader

Originally posted by SunRazer
Why do people keep saying it was the Council's collective might that stunned the Exile? It's clearly just Vrook who gestures.

Anyway, yeah, Kreia ragdolling the Jedi Masters all at once is no less canon than Maul doing the same to Sidious imo.Originally posted by SunRazer
In fairness, her upper limit was also exposed when Nihilus and Sion turned on her.

That said, I've taken the stance that Nihilus (at the time, at least) wasn't above her in the way that everybody else suggests. If he was, why would he need Sion's help to take her down? Sources indicate that the two collectively took away her powers, and Traya's attention was clearly divided when Nihilus threw her into the wall. Bit of a double standard here don't you think? Only Nihilus is seen to gesture, Sion just looks on.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Why do people keep saying it was the Council's collective might that stunned the Exile? It's clearly just Vrook who gestures.
We only see his hand from the frame, but it's implied to be all of them.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Bit of a double standard here don't you think? Only Nihilus is seen to gesture, Sion just looks on.

Not at all. Nihilus gestured for the TK, not Draining Kreia's powers. That's something that appears to have been done without gestures.

Originally posted by MythLord
Cut-content, non-canon. By this logic, we should take into account Cin Drallig deflecting Anakin's Force Push, before throwing him several meters back, or Mace ragdolling Skywalker, or Kenobi pushing Dooku, or beating Saesee Tiin while a padawan, or Maul choking Sidious, etc. If it's cut content, then I don't see it as being legitimate. And what "solid" TK feats? Pushing a wookie and collectively stunning the Exile?



We actually don't know if she needed a gesture or not because we didn't see her kill them. We saw them approach her, it faded to black, then cut back and see they're all dead and Traya's just sorta there. Doesn't mean she even killed them with TK, it could've been Drain for all we know.



So beings that don't even approach Jax Pavan, who Vader ragdolled more than two decades before his prime, or Starkiller who Vader exchanged telekinetic blows with before his prime, or Gethzeroin, Jerec and Kar Vastor whom Vader has canonically surpassed? Good to know. .

Im going to tell you what I told you last time, play the actual game before engaging me in debate further, you'll just embarrass yourself.

It's not cut content that she dominates them. She knocks them all back several meters with a Force Wave, and when Vrook attempts to engage her she dominates him again.

Kavar has stunned dozens of soldiers with a single force wave, and yes, striking Hanharr with telekinesis so powerful as to knock him out is impressive, given the ridiculous strength and stamina he displays throughout the game.

We see the Assassins die, actually, on screen. She hasn't moved from when they first revealed themselves to her. The game files also mention her discarding them effortlessly, IIRC. It was most likely Dark Healing, though, a power she has shown herself incredibly proficient in.

Please, list anything Jax has done that you think places him above them. I'm waiting.

And again, Traya's upper limit of telekinesis has never been displayed. Her speed and sense feats are indicative of overall power levels, so are certainly credible methods of judging her overall force capabilities.

Originally posted by MythLord
We only see his hand from the frame, but it's implied to be all of them.

The frame would've let us see Zez-Kai Ell's hand if he used Stasis as well, but he didn't. And when the frame cuts back, only Vrook retracts his hand.

The only thing that was collective was the Council's Sever Force attempt.

Originally posted by Beniboybling


Anyway, yeah, Kreia ragdolling the Jedi Masters all at once is no less canon than Maul doing the same to Sidious imo.Bit of a double standard here don't you think? Only Nihilus is seen to gesture, Sion just looks on.

I mean, technically Maul doing it to Sidious Is canon.

And since there's quotes saying they both drained her, it's a little different.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Why do people keep saying it was the Council's collective might that stunned the Exile? It's clearly just Vrook who gestures.

They clearly state the three of them have the power, which supersedes visually eyeballing in-game animations. More importantly, the Exile makes no obvious attempt at defending herself.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Not at all. Nihilus gestured for the TK, not Draining Kreia's powers. That's something that appears to have been done without gestures. Well fair enough if that's how you interpret the scene, however I never really saw it in that way. Traya may be senile but one TK push shouldn't be enough to render her completely helpless, and too weak to even summon her lightsaber.

Whereas we have the voice over telling us that there "some powers against which there are no defence" indicating that what we are seeing is Traya being rendered helpless by drain.

If anything the former interpretation would suggest an even vaster gap between Traya and Nihilus, if he can incapacitate her that easily.

Originally posted by Selenial
I mean, technically Maul doing it to Sidious Is canon.No... it's not.True but that doesn't necessarily mean he actively drained her, merely that he was complicit in the act. In the same way you might say "two men lured a woman into an alley and murdered her" when only one of them actually did the killing.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Well fair enough if that's how you interpret the scene, however I never really saw it in that way. Traya may be senile but one TK push shouldn't be enough to render her completely helpless, and too weak to even summon her lightsaber.

Whereas we have the voice over telling us that there "some powers against which there are no defence" indicating that what we are seeing is Traya being rendered helpless by drain.

If anything the former interpretation would suggest an even vaster gap between Traya and Nihilus, if he can incapacitate her that easily.

I didn't say the Push cut her off from the Force. I said Nihilus Pushed her whilst her attention was divided between him and Sion, and then the two (without gestures) Drained her powers, which is why she couldn't TK her saber. Sion then decided to add insult to injury by knocking her out physically, but it wasn't needed.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
No... it's not.

According to Leland Che, any deleted scenes released by an official source are Canon.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I didn't say the Push cut her off from the Force. I said Nihilus Pushed her whilst her attention was divided between him and Sion, and then the two (without gestures) Drained her powers, which is why she couldn't TK her saber. Sion then decided to add insult to injury by knocking her out physically, but it wasn't needed. Drained her powers without gesture? No offence but that's pretty stupid.

Kotor has always had shitty in-game animations. Ignoring those in favor of actual canon sources is the only safe bet.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Drained her powers without gesture? No offence but that's pretty stupid.

There's clearly nobody gesturing for the "Drain Force" animation, nor the purple lightning or whatever it is that symbolizes that in-game. It's done without gestures. And if it's the Sever Force thing that some people like to believe it was, then that works as well. After all, the Council Members in the game were in the process of using Sever Force on Meetra, and they didn't gesture either.

Originally posted by Selenial
According to Leland Che, any deleted scenes released by an official source are Canon. Source? First I've heard of it. So those deleted scenes that feature Shaak Ti's (multiple) death's are Canon too?

This scene wasn't even completed, and we've got a description of the fight that says Sidious "never wavered" from his position of superiority, which that scene would plainly contradict.