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Right....because there's not like...a bunch of evidence that completely points to the opposite. Oh wait, there is.

Correction. There are a few statements that contest the idea that PT can't saber duel, but none that override the bigger picture. Jen's assessment still stands.

These statements are where exactly? Plus not really, if they couldn't duel, then Maul would have just destroyed Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan where they stood, both together and separately.

If they couldn't duel, then there wouldn't be so many lightsaber fights throughout the movies and all of TCW and Rebels, so on and so forth.

Then you also have Nick Gillard saying, that Force Users learned every single way to swing a blade and mix it into their own custom fighting styles(Lightsaber Forms). If they couldn't duel, then there wouldn't be exact fighting forms for...you know DUELING..

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
As usual, Jensaarai continues to shape most of the fanon with yet another great video. And he's completely spot on.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
These statements are where exactly?

You misunderstand entirely. This was me throwing you a bone. Now go on, make use of the that trademark Zenwolf-logic and regurgitate a one-liner in a futile attempt to disprove the bigger picture. PT Jedi can't duel to - quite literally - save their lives.



That is assuming Maul doesn't have flaws of his own. He's not exactly a veteran Jedi-slayer and only has a couple of notches under belt unlike, for example, Darth Sion, who's essentially Maul's counterpart on steroids. We can also assume that Sion's opponents are generally better than what Maul is use to facing. And of course, Maul, didn't look to good against pre vizla either. A better example would be Dooku, perhaps the only individual studying a form substratumed for saber-to-saber engagements. Which is why Vos has to study under Ventress to get that one-out -of-ten win against him. Which is why he can still hold off Kenobi and his apprentice until the latter is in the 'zone'.



The vast majority of those duels depicting Jedi on the loosing end. Anyway, the logic is sound, and all you can do right now is find exceptions to the rule without disproving it.



Nick Gillard's entire purpose is atheistic detail. When it comes to an in-universe discussion, particularly when it comes to the expanded universe, he literally hasn't the slightest idea what he's talking about. Citing him is as useful as citing the opinions of your mom on the topic.

Actually******

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Nick Gillard's entire purpose is atheistic detail. When it comes to an in-universe discussion, particularly when it comes to the expanded universe, he literally hasn't the slightest idea what he's talking about. Citing him is as useful as citing the opinions of your mom on the topic. It keeps getting better.

Is the word "better" in British English synonymous with Sad and/or Pathetic? I can't quite remember, frankly.

lol so even if this is true, what does it matter? everybody in canon fights against blaster, OT, PT, ST, whatever. Luke wand Vader were shittier than anybody in the PT as a fighter I can tell you that much

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Is the word "better" in British English synonymous with Sad and/or Pathetic? I can't quite remember, frankly. Yeah something like that.

I am sensing some upset...

With your mental functions, indeed.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yeah something like that.
England has some better looking women then, m8.

I'm a guy, tell that to Selenial.

Are they also a different species there? Their problems are your problems. In so many ways.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Are they also a different species there? Spot on.

Ziggy, I don't care if the Jedi lose or win.

You put and I quote.



Yet clearly, that's shown to be the opposite throughout the mediums, losing or not.

Also why is Nick not a reliable source? He's the one who came up with how the Jedi fought.

KEK at this thread.

Somebody probably bullied Ziggy when he went to watch the PT movies. That's why he blatantly hates everything that relates to those movies.

This jensaarai fella is mentioned again. Who is this internet sensation ?

I kind of agree with Jensaarai1, at least in regard to your average, run-of-the-mill Jedi during the PT.

Originally posted by quanchi112
This jensaarai fella is mentioned again. Who is this internet sensation ?

He's on youtube and does videos of character battles where he argues who would win. Rarely do we agree with him.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
I kind of agree with Jensaarai1, at least in regard to your average, run-of-the-mill Jedi during the PT.

You returned just to say this utter bullshit?

Jensaarai1 has some pretty good videos on you tube.
I'm a fan of his work .The man has some very interesting theories.

Now what sucks was the dueling in The Force Awakens.
In my opinion the whole movie sucked.
Kylo Ren is no bad ass in my opinion,a cry baby,a spoiled snot nosed kid throwing a child sized
temper tandrum about Vader.

I tried to watch the movie with excitement and enthusiasm but couldn't get into it.
And the dueling? I rather watch AOTC and SWTCW. Even ROTS had better dueling.
What yall fail to realise is not all the Light Saber Combat in the mythos revolves around fencing.

There is some Kenjutsu,Kendo,as well as fencing in it.
the acrobatics could be based off Wushu and Wushu swordplay.

Im not trying to start an agrument,I'm just trying to show you something different.
Yes Makashi is probably all fencing with a little italian and french fencing in there somewhere,
Ataru could be mixed with Wushu,who knows.

All I'm saying is 1-6 is a whole lot better than The Force Awakens.
I'm willing to bet Rogue One will be better than TFA.

That's why Legends Jedi all have different truths on how to use the Force and lightsaber combat.
Each Jedi ,Sith , Dark Sider , Light Sider is different.Their approach,their style,everything.

Change is good and the EU and SW need to evolve but if its anything like TFA,I'll pass and
stay true to the real deal which is Legends.
And for the record Kylo Ren is weak. That whole dueling sequence was weak.

Originally posted by juyomaster34
Jensaarai1 has some pretty good videos on you tube.
I'm a fan of his work .The man has some very interesting theories.

Now what sucks was the dueling in The Force Awakens.
In my opinion the whole movie sucked.
Kylo Ren is no bad ass in my opinion,a cry baby,a spoiled snot nosed kid throwing a child sized
temper tandrum about Vader.

I tried to watch the movie with excitement and enthusiasm but couldn't get into it.
And the dueling? I rather watch AOTC and SWTCW. Even ROTS had better dueling.
What yall fail to realise is not all the Light Saber Combat in the mythos revolves around fencing.

There is some Kenjutsu,Kendo,as well as fencing in it.
the acrobatics could be based off Wushu and Wushu swordplay.

Im not trying to start an agrument,I'm just trying to show you something different.
Yes Makashi is probably all fencing with a little italian and french fencing in there somewhere,
Ataru could be mixed with Wushu,who knows.

All I'm saying is 1-6 is a whole lot better than The Force Awakens.
I'm willing to bet Rogue One will be better than TFA.

That's why Legends Jedi all have different truths on how to use the Force and lightsaber combat.
Each Jedi ,Sith , Dark Sider , Light Sider is different.Their approach,their style,everything.

Change is good and the EU and SW need to evolve but if its anything like TFA,I'll pass and
stay true to the real deal which is Legends.
And for the record Kylo Ren is weak. That whole dueling sequence was weak.

I really hope that you're not trying to claim the lightsaber styles are based around realistic styles. They're not. Their may be some real world "inspiration" but trust me when I claim no one would fight like that. You can't base how good a character is at fighting by the choreography or how "applicable" it is because if that's the case they all suck.

No just that some were inspired by the Arts.
I'm not going to say they all sucked just TFA.
The moves choreographed were flashy and looked good for the camera.
And yes there was some twirling,

And no nobody fights like that. If so then good for you.
All Im saying is there was inspiration in the prequels where TFA had none.

We all have opinions and I personally don't think they suck.
They could have been better,sometimes you have to work with what you have.
Mr. Lucus gave us a vision on what it would look like and how they would fight.

And for that I say thank you George Lucas for your gift and your vision.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He's on youtube and does videos of character battles where he argues who would win. Rarely do we agree with him. So kmc is a hive mind. Who is the queen ?

Originally posted by Chosen_Sith
I really hope that you're not trying to claim the lightsaber styles are based around realistic styles. They're not. Their may be some real world "inspiration" but trust me when I claim no one would fight like that. You can't base how good a character is at fighting by the choreography or how "applicable" it is because if that's the case they all suck.

And that, right there, is why Jensaarai1 is a genius. He points out, correctly, that no real-life swordsmen would use the kind of moves we see in the movies. He then points out that those moves aren't meant for duelling or fencing (fencing as a general term for sword-fighting, not the sport). Those moves are meant to either bat away blaster bolts or mow down a bunch of people in one swing (which can't be done with a regular sword).

Put simply, Jedi aren't trained like regular swordsmen. They use different moves meant for a completely different purpose.

Originally posted by quanchi112
This jensaarai fella is mentioned again. Who is this internet sensation ?

Here is a link:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCm7imB9QanTySN-Lfae0SIQ

You'll love these videos. They're amazing.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I Rarely do we agree with him.

Is that the royal "we" is it? I agree with him all the time.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
These statements are where exactly? Plus not really, if they couldn't duel, then Maul would have just destroyed Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan where they stood, both together and separately.

If they couldn't duel, then there wouldn't be so many lightsaber fights throughout the movies and all of TCW and Rebels, so on and so forth.

Nope. Both the fight against Maul and the various lightsabre fights all show that the Jedi can improvise and adapt the lightsabre styles they do know for a purpose they weren't originally meant for.

If they had trained specifically for duelling then they wouldn't have fared so poorly against Maul, both together and separately. Plus there are other factors, such as the Force guiding them.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Then you also have Nick Gillard saying, that Force Users learned every single way to swing a blade and mix it into their own custom fighting styles(Lightsaber Forms).

Nick Gillard also said that "no move is wasted. Everything is there for a purpose" Now watch the ROTS Anakin/Kenobi fight and tell me there isn't a boatload of wasted, zero purpose moves there.

Plus, I don't give a fudgebucket what some twonk "says" when the actual facts show otherwise.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
If they couldn't duel, then there wouldn't be exact fighting forms for...you know DUELING..

Did you even watch the video?

Jensaarai1 himself points out that only two forms were focused specifically on actual duelling and most Jedi didn't use them because they focused on deflecting blaster bolts.

Yes there were "exact fighting forms for...you know DUELING." Doesn't mean they were actually learned or used by the majority.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
And that, right there, is why Jensaarai1 is a genius. He points out, correctly, that no real-life swordsmen would use the kind of moves we see in the movies. He then points out that those moves aren't meant for duelling or fencing (fencing as a general term for sword-fighting, not the sport). Those moves are meant to either bat away blaster bolts or mow down a bunch of people in one swing (which can't be done with a regular sword).

Put simply, Jedi aren't trained like regular swordsmen. They use different moves meant for a completely different purpose.

This is the flaw of your argument. The moves you see in SWTOR? You wouldn't use in real swordsmanship either. You wouldn't use the moves, if lightsabers were real, you see in the comics or elsewhere either. Lightsaber combat would look nothing like real fighting nor how it does in the movies. The reason it's designed the way it is in the movies is simply because "it looks neat." the moves you see in the movies you wouldn't use even to deflect blaster bolts. Do I need to show you cut scenes in SWTOR where your characters spin? It doesn't matter if lightsabers can cut through multiple people. You would never ever spin in a real fight.



Here is a link:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCm7imB9QanTySN-Lfae0SIQ

You'll love these videos. They're amazing.

Hardly. Jensaraai has no idea what he's talking about when it comes to Star Wars and he has no idea what he's talking about when it comes to real life swordplay. While Quan and I don't see eye to eye I think even he would find it questionable to compare choreography to what is happening in universe. It would be akin to me looking at the choreographed hand to hand fighting of kirk and claiming that people in Star Trek are terrible at fighting with their fists because it would be stupid for opponents to fight in the manner that they're doing. Except it's a t.v. series so that doesn't apply.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
You'll love these videos. They're amazing.

Is that the royal "we" is it? I agree with him all the time. Ziggy, behold your soulmate.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Somebody probably bullied Ziggy when he went to watch the PT movies. That's why he blatantly hates everything that relates to those movies.
Maybe Jar Jar Binks raped him?

Originally posted by Chosen_Sith
This is the flaw of your argument. The moves you see in SWTOR? You wouldn't use in real swordsmanship either. You wouldn't use the moves, if lightsabers were real, you see in the comics or elsewhere either. Lightsaber combat would look nothing like real fighting nor how it does in the movies. The reason it's designed the way it is in the movies is simply because "it looks neat."

That's exactly what Jensarai1 says! Watch the video and see for yourself. It's only five minutes long.


Originally posted by Chosen_Sith
Hardly. Jensaraai has no idea what he's talking about when it comes to Star Wars and he has no idea what he's talking about when it comes to real life swordplay.

Jensaarai1 knows and understands far more about Star Wars than anyone on this board. When I want inspiration for my writing I look to his work far more than I look here.

I'm not qualified to talk about real life swordplay but to me at least he really seems like someone who's done his research.

Originally posted by Chosen_Sith
While Quan and I don't see eye to eye I think even he would find it questionable to compare choreography to what is happening in universe. It would be akin to me looking at the choreographed hand to hand fighting of kirk and claiming that people in Star Trek are terrible at fighting with their fists because it would be stupid for opponents to fight in the manner that they're doing. Except it's a t.v. series so that doesn't apply.

If you watch his videos he does an excellent job of separating "stage fighting" from stuff that can feasibly be analysed. For example he acknowledges that Yoda's duel with Dooku in AOTC is nothing but stage fencing, but still gives a solid breakdown of Yoda's style and skills in his "Yoda vs. Malak" video.

BTW, still waiting for Zenwolf to woman up and admit their mistake.

Mistake for what? All I was saying is that they aren't weak duelists.

Originally posted by Petrus
KEK at this thread.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
That's exactly what Jensarai1 says! Watch the video and see for yourself. It's only five minutes long.




Jensaarai1 knows and understands far more about Star Wars than anyone on this board. When I want inspiration for my writing I look to his work far more than I look here.

I'm not qualified to talk about real life swordplay but to me at least he really seems like someone who's done his research.



If you watch his videos he does an excellent job of separating "stage fighting" from stuff that can feasibly be analysed. For example he acknowledges that Yoda's duel with Dooku in AOTC is nothing but stage fencing, but still gives a solid breakdown of Yoda's style and skills in his "Yoda vs. Malak" video.

BTW, still waiting for Zenwolf to woman up and admit their mistake.

My posts went over your head so allow me to explain (I'm not being condescending I legitimately feel you didn't get my post.) I've watched his videos and I know what he's saying. Here's the problem. This is the case for nearly any movie out there. Whether it's lord of the rings, robin hood, it doesn't matter. I also pointed out the duels you see in cut scenes in Star Wars the old republic? From a real life swordplay stance? It's also laughably bad. The trailers? Also bad. Going by his logic? Jedi/Sith are terrible duelists regardless of era.

Second, no one would make cuts with a lightsaber if they were real from a competitive standpoint. I can comment on swordplay. Why? I've been doing it for nearly twenty years now. I would not make any kind of cutting motion with a lightsaber because it's terrible economy of movement. Economy of movement is important when utilizing any kind of weapon. You want to make the least movements possible that still allow you to deliver maximum damage. A lightsaber merely needs to touch someone in order to kill them. Any kind of "large swing" is pointless. Dooku's style would be the most practical and even then it's competitively terrible.

You can't base the performance of the styles on real life swordplay for this reason. When I was younger I hated any movie that had any kind of swordplay due to my knowledge on how a sword is actually used. Over time I had to accept that sometimes movies have to make concessions. Simply because people don't want to watch fights that are over in a few seconds and don't have any cool "flashiness" to them.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Mistake for what? All I was saying is that they aren't weak duelists.

The mistake I was referring to was this bit here:

Originally posted by Zenwolf
If they couldn't duel, then there wouldn't be exact fighting forms for...you know DUELING..

Why is this a mistake? Because Jensaarai1 himself specifically pointed out that there ARE duelling focused styles. His point was that out of 7 Forms only 2 are designed specifically for duelling so statistically most Jedi won't be trained in them or at least won't use them (again, watch the video. I'm sure you can spare 5 minutes).

Plus there's simple logistics. By the PT era the Sith were thought to be extinct, there's at most a handful of Dark Jedi at any time and there's thousands of Jedi. There is no need for the majority of them to be great duellists since most of them would go through their entire careers without engaging in a life-or-death duel. I refer you to the TPM visual dictionary:

"Since lightsabres are seldom handled by non-Jedi, the order primarily uses them as defence against blaster bolts rather than other lightsabres."

Also, yes they are clearly weak duellists, seeing as Asajj, Grievous, Aurra Sing etc. are able to rack up such enormous Jedi kill counts. If every single Jedi was some uber-great duellist, then why do so many get beaten?

Originally posted by chilled monkey
The mistake I was referring to was this bit here:



Why is this a mistake? Because Jensaarai1 himself specifically pointed out that there ARE duelling focused styles. His point was that out of 7 Forms only 2 are designed specifically for duelling so statistically most Jedi won't be trained in them or at least won't use them (again, watch the video. I'm sure you can spare 5 minutes).

Plus there's simple logistics. By the PT era the Sith were thought to be extinct, there's at most a handful of Dark Jedi at any time and there's thousands of Jedi. There is no need for the majority of them to be great duellists since most of them would go through their entire careers without engaging in a life-or-death duel. I refer you to the TPM visual dictionary:

"Since lightsabres are seldom handled by non-Jedi, the order primarily uses them as defence against blaster bolts rather than other lightsabres."

Also, yes they are clearly weak duellists, seeing as Asajj, Grievous, Aurra Sing etc. are able to rack up such enormous Jedi kill counts. If every single Jedi was some uber-great duellist, then why do so many get beaten?

Except that Ventress and Sing were once Jedi and trained as Jedi, Grevious was also trained in the Jedi arts. So....of course they'd be able to get kills.

I never said every single Jedi were uber great duelists, just that they aren't weak duelists. I'm using the term weak as if suggesting, that they wouldn't be able to defend themselves or attack.

Yet logically by training seeing as they train through all lightsaber forms, they would be able to do that much. Which the fact that the Jedi hadn't encountered a Sith up until Maul, shows.

Because if Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were weak duelists...then Qui-Gon should have died on Tatooine right? And Obi-Wan wouldn't have been able to destroy Maul's weapon, much less keep up with him via his rage.

So again...not saying every Jedi are uber duelists, but they aren't weak either otherwise what would be the point of even using a lightsaber as their main weapon?

Originally posted by Chosen_Sith
My posts went over your head so allow me to explain (I'm not being condescending I legitimately feel you didn't get my post.)

Fair enough and I appreciate that you made the effort to point that out.

Originally posted by Chosen_Sith
I've watched his videos and I know what he's saying. Here's the problem. This is the case for nearly any movie out there. Whether it's lord of the rings, robin hood, it doesn't matter. I also pointed out the duels you see in cut scenes in Star Wars the old republic? From a real life swordplay stance? It's also laughably bad. The trailers? Also bad. Going by his logic? Jedi/Sith are terrible duelists regardless of era.

Second, no one would make cuts with a lightsaber if they were real from a competitive standpoint. I can comment on swordplay. Why? I've been doing it for nearly twenty years now. I would not make any kind of cutting motion with a lightsaber because it's terrible economy of movement. Economy of movement is important when utilizing any kind of weapon. You want to make the least movements possible that still allow you to deliver maximum damage. A lightsaber merely needs to touch someone in order to kill them. Any kind of "large swing" is pointless. Dooku's style would be the most practical and even then it's competitively terrible.

You can't base the performance of the styles on real life swordplay for this reason. When I was younger I hated any movie that had any kind of swordplay due to my knowledge on how a sword is actually used. Over time I had to accept that sometimes movies have to make concessions. Simply because people don't want to watch fights that are over in a few seconds and don't have any cool "flashiness" to them.

I do understand what you're saying and I am aware that what we see in movies is just to look cool and is nothing like actual real-life swordsmanship.

The thing is, like with your Star Trek example earlier, we have to try and account for that as best we can. Yes, as you say from a real-life perspective, Kirk and co would be terrible fighters and it would be stupid to try and fight in that manner in real life. But, as you point out, in-story, Kirk is "supposed" to be really good.

If we're trying to decide who'd win in a Versus match or are just trying to write a fan-fic, then how are we to determine who's better if none of the choreography is accurate in real-life? If we watch Character A in his movie and Character B in his, then yes, neither of them will look skilled in a "real-life" context, but for the purposes of a story or a Vs. we still have to try and make a few observations because it's all we've got.

No, the choreography shouldn't be used as an ironclad rule but in general, I don't think we should dismiss it completely either. It should be treated as a (very) rough guide to how that character moves, accounting for the "looks cool" factor as best we can. To go back to your Kirk example, if we made a "Kirk vs Lee (Enter the Dragon)" battle then I think we can agree that Lee is a better fighter even accounting for choreography limits.

That's what I see Jensaarai1 as doing. Acknowledging the limits of choreography and using it as a rough guide.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Except that Ventress and Sing were once Jedi and trained as Jedi, Grevious was also trained in the Jedi arts. So....of course they'd be able to get kills.

Correction, Asajj and Grievous were trained by DOOKU. You know, one of the few Jedi that specialised in the Form that actually focused on lightsabre duelling. I love how you ignore that really important detail.

Sing spent only a short time with the Jedi. Most of her combat training came from the Anzati, who are known to use bladed weapons. She herself commented that the Anzati taught her the really good stuff (although that was probably just a jibe)

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Because if Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were weak duelists...then Qui-Gon should have died on Tatooine right?

Wrong.

Qui-Gon was trained by Dooku, again a guy who had a duelling focus. Plus he had experience fighting a lightsabre-wielder and a lot of general combat experience. He was able to adapt his style to use in a duel, much like how Finn was able to adapt his weapon training to use a lightsabre passably.

Despite all that he barely got away with his life and was completely exhausted after a quick skirmish. Not exactly a fantastic showing.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
and Obi-Wan wouldn't have been able to destroy Maul's weapon, much less keep up with him via his rage.

Not really. Maul's weapon is a huge target. Given an opening a chimpanzee with a rock could break it.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
So again...not saying every Jedi are uber duelists, but they aren't weak either otherwise what would be the point of even using a lightsaber as their main weapon?

The point is they use the lightsabre as their main weapon so they can deflect blaster bolts, something lightsabres are really good for. That's their focus, that's what they really excel at, not fighting other guys with sword-type weapons.

I didn't really ignore the detail, I just merely said they were trained in the Jedi arts. Which of course would encompass what Dooku taught them.

So they aren't weak duelists, which is what all I was trying to say.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Fair enough and I appreciate that you made the effort to point that out.



I do understand what you're saying and I am aware that what we see in movies is just to look cool and is nothing like actual real-life swordsmanship.

The thing is, like with your Star Trek example earlier, we have to try and account for that as best we can. Yes, as you say from a real-life perspective, Kirk and co would be terrible fighters and it would be stupid to try and fight in that manner in real life. But, as you point out, in-story, Kirk is "supposed" to be really good.

If we're trying to decide who'd win in a Versus match or are just trying to write a fan-fic, then how are we to determine who's better if none of the choreography is accurate in real-life? If we watch Character A in his movie and Character B in his, then yes, neither of them will look skilled in a "real-life" context, but for the purposes of a story or a Vs. we still have to try and make a few observations because it's all we've got.

No, the choreography shouldn't be used as an ironclad rule but in general, I don't think we should dismiss it completely either. It should be treated as a (very) rough guide to how that character moves, accounting for the "looks cool" factor as best we can. To go back to your Kirk example, if we made a "Kirk vs Lee (Enter the Dragon)" battle then I think we can agree that Lee is a better fighter even accounting for choreography limits.

That's what I see Jensaarai1 as doing. Acknowledging the limits of choreography and using it as a rough guide.

That's the problem, however, because we have accolades that state certain characters are incredible duelists. Not just for their time but in general. Not to mention many of the same flaws in the way characters fight in the prequels are present in the SWTOR trailers as well. Personally, while it might not make complete sense, I don't think the writers intended for the prequel era to have "less skilled" fighters or anything of such.

I'm of the opinion most eras are pretty comparable as a whole. In fact there's an angle that isn't considered. While many characters in the prequel era haven't fought a lightsaber wielding opponent, sparring is still a major part of the curriculum as is facing holo recordings of ancient sith that are meant to simulate those scenarios.

Why is this relevant? While I understand practical application, as well as life and death duels, can't fully be simulated in a training scenario there is another factor to look at: During a time of war, with more lightsaber wielding opponents, with deadlier opponents in general the average life expectancy would be much lower. This means the amount of training a Jedi would have would be a lot lower as masters won't last as long.

In the prequel era you have Jedi who make it to their 70's and 80's who are still practicing. Giving them more time to refine their art. I think this is why you can have people like Dooku, Yoda, Obi Wan, etc. It balances out. Plus from a real life perspective? Sparring is actually rather useful. In a sense, even mixed martial artists are sparring. No bout is to the death and I'm sure many of those professional fighters can take soldiers in hand to hand combat who have fought and even killed despite not taking a life themselves.

Likewise, if I existed back in the day and faced someone who, after two years of training was forced to kill someone in battle, just because he was forced to kill someone and has fought people doesn't mean he's going to beat someone in the modern era who has access to the same sword style and has been at it for 10-16 years. There's just other factors that can add into the consideration. Not to mention that techniques, logically, would improve over time. Especially since as Yoda himself admitted he was training the Jedi for the Sith's return. He expected it. He knew it was going to happen.

So finally I want to add one last thing to this big long post:

You brought up how scores of Jedi fall to Ventress, Grievous, etc. Well, not much changes in the old republic era. It's well known, even in the old republic, being trained under a powerful Sith IS an accolade in and of itself. Nameless jedi masters with nameless students are going to be butchered by the likes of Thanaton. Ventress is the student of Dooku. As is Grievous. Dooku only being rivaled by a select few from his era. It's no brainer that his students alone are going to stand head and shoulders above most of the other people in his era. Just as Valkorion's children, by virtue of being his children, are steamrolling the old republic.

Let's not forget that most of the Jedi who died in Geonosis were Niman practitioners. The favored style of diplomats but also the style of Exar Kun, one of the greatest Sith. You can name a style that is "poor" for fighting other "Blade wielders." I can probably find a character who utilizes the style to good effect.