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-No prep
-Standard gear
-Combatant start 10 meters away,
-Fight takes place in the Endor Forest

Force, Sabers, All-out.

Bonus Round: Luke tags up with his sister, Leia Organa Solo at her peak; Revan tags of with KotOR II Meetra. Same stipulation as above.

Luke wins handily. He's clearly surpassed Vader at this point, who from his Force Unleashed feats is above SoR Revan. The closest match-up is in offensive Force ability; obviously in sabers Revan dies without much of a fight.

In the bonus round, Leia can use Force harmony on Luke again, and now Luke just one-shots Meetra and ragdolls Revan.

Holy shit, your logic sucks.

Nowhere was it stated Luke surpassed Vader, and feat-by-feat comparison, wouldn't be in Luke's favor.

Except that DE Sidious thinks Luke could challenge him, but obviously Vader could not. And RotJ Luke is already a match for Vader as a duelist with about six months of training; DE Luke has had another six years, lol.

DE Luke wins with moderate effort.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Except that DE Sidious thinks Luke could challenge him, but obviously Vader could not.
Scan?

Because without the Force Harmony amp, Sidious crushed Luke in under two pages, while still weak from just entering a clone body. Hardly something Vader couldn't replicate.

Sidious seeing him as a "threat" could simply be based on his potential and insane intrinsic ability to learn at an alarming rate.



Context my friend, context. Vader was conflicted, and Luke familiarity with Vader style and such, helped out in the long run. I doubt he was actually a Vader level duelist, or else he would not have been destroyed by Lumiya the first time, or pushed by Flint.

Besides, dueling =/= Force. Luke himself admitted he wasn't anywhere near as powerful as Vader in CoPL.

IIRC there are a number of sources that allege Vader and Luke were proper equals in ROTJ. The reborn Emperor does remark in Dark Empire that Luke has grown much stronger "since they last met."

And I also recall some reference to improved swordsmanship as well... mmm

And relevance does Vader have to Revan?

That I think, is the crucial question...

Vader's lightsaber level by RotJ is unsubstantiated. Luke being as skilled as him means little when we don't know how good RotJ Vader is.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
And relevance does Vader have to Revan?

That I think, is the crucial question...

Feat by feat comparison and logical scaling.

Stalemating Old ben, anyone?

Originally posted by nedemette
Vader's lightsaber level by RotJ is unsubstantiated. Luke being as skilled as him means little when we don't know how good RotJ Vader is.

We know approximately how powerful he is and what his augmentation should be like paired with his cybernetics. We know he has all the knowledge and experience from when he was Anakin with added decades of Jedi hunting and Sith training to pile on. We know he employs multiple forms in his fighting style as Vader rather then just 1. I think we can logically reason that there's been marked improvement because of that.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Holy shit, your logic sucks.

Nowhere was it stated Luke surpassed Vader, and feat-by-feat comparison, wouldn't be in Luke's favor.

DE Luke? Lol Revan wins this. Any future version of Luke wins.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Stalemating Old ben, anyone?

He was going to beat Old Ben actually which is why Old Ben didn't bother continuing the fight when he knew Luke and Leia had reached the Falcon.

Originally posted by Syndicate
We know approximately how powerful he is and what his augmentation should be like paired with his cybernetics. We know he has all the knowledge and experience from when he was Anakin with added decades of Jedi hunting and training to pile on. We know he employs multiple forms in his fighting style now rather then just 1. I think we can logically reason that there's been marked improvement because of that.
Pre-TFU sources (FightSaber?) stated that Vader and Kenobi were inferior duelists compared to their previous selves. The same source then stated that Vader improved quite a lot by ESB. Hard to say how good he was by RotJ. Vader using multiple styles and all that comes from TFU and Dark Lord, IIRC. Doesn't really apply to the movie-Vader whom Luke faced.

Originally posted by nedemette
Pre-TFU sources (FightSaber?) stated that Vader and Kenobi were inferior duelists compared to their previous selves. The same source then stated that Vader improved quite a lot by ESB. Hard to say how good he was by RotJ. Vader using multiple styles and all that comes from TFU and Dark Lord, IIRC. Doesn't really apply to the movie-Vader whom Luke faced.

Quotes?

Of course the EU applies to the OT when we're using composite characters.

Uh RotJ Vader muses that he's more powerful than he's ever been, i.e. above his TFU self. That they were published in a different order in real life doesn't create an alternate continuity lol.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Quotes?

Of course the EU applies to the OT when we're using composite characters.
When the source says that the duelists were shadows of their former selves because they hadn't fought other duelists in years, which is then contradicted by TFU, yeah, it does create a bit of an issue.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Uh RotJ Vader muses that he's more powerful than he's ever been, i.e. above his TFU self. That they were published in a different order in real life doesn't create an alternate continuity lol.
Never talked Force power. Vader's most likely more powerful than ever by RotJ.

But logically that would mean he's a superior lightsaber combatant as force power directly correlates with physical augmentation.

I mean what did his saber skills atrophy somehow?

Originally posted by nedemette
When the source says that the duelists were shadows of their former selves because they hadn't fought other duelists in years, which is then contradicted by TFU, yeah, it does create a bit of an issue.

Then you disregard the older source as it's not accurate to what the more current writers believe/believed at the time. If sources that contradicted prior sources were passed through we have to assume it's because the prior source that has been contradicted is not valid anymore.

I mean pretty much every EU source has Vader fighting Jedi. When was that source written? Directly after the OT in the 70's?

I'm not sure which source you're talking about in both above posts.

The source that says they haven't fought other duelists for years.

"When the source says that the duelists were shadows of their former selves because they hadn't fought other duelists in years,"

When was it written?

2002

Anybody know if Vader faced many Jedi close to the OT in any sources before 2002?

Who cares about Vader?

Revan fighting his way through armies while being on a very potent DS nexus, en-rout to besting Malik, BEFORE his prime is honestly superior to anything Vader has done anyway in terms dueling.

Or, did we forget - about Vader's laughable showings against questionable duelist, like Old Ben, Dark Woman, Jax Pavan, and ****ing shitty cyborgs?

Most of us debating for DE since he's a direct measuring stick for DE Luke.

Not at all considering Galen did much the same on Felucia and Vader's performance against him.

The duelists themselves aren't questionable given their performance against Vader since we're measuring Vader's own dueling prowess based off his physical showings in conjunction with the knowledge, experience and skill he should have decades after the Clone Wars. At least that's how I view it.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Anybody know if Vader faced many Jedi close to the OT in any sources before 2002?
i don't get the point you're trying to make

Vader's portrayed as very skilled and fast and stuff TFU/post-TFU. Before that, a Maul clone ran rings around him. It's not a retcon, it's just Vader being portrayed differently. Apply Luke being equal to Vader (if we accept that) to the version he faced. It was never the intent that Luke was equal to a hybrid-style, super fast and awesome Vader.

Also doesn't the Rebels authors say that Vader was in his prime in Rebels? lol

DC

Originally posted by nedemette
i don't get the point you're trying to make

Vader's portrayed as very skilled and fast and stuff TFU/post-TFU. Before that, a Maul clone ran rings around him. It's not a retcon, it's just Vader being portrayed differently. Apply Luke being equal to Vader (if we accept that) to the version he faced. It was never the intent that Luke was equal to a hybrid-style, super fast and awesome Vader.

Also doesn't the Rebels authors say that Vader was in his prime in Rebels? lol

Because if he never faced powerful opponents not long before the OT then that quote only accounts for a long period of stagnation where Vader didn't fight any opponents which we know is directly contradicted by novels like TFU.

That's in canon which contradicts the RotJ novelization which says something along the lines of Vader being at his most powerful by RotJ. Where canon and Legends contradict in composite threads we employ the source we feel to be the most accurate. I believe that to be the RotJ novelization considering it makes sense Vader wouldn't have just reached his cap by Rebels and never grown after that point.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Anybody know if Vader faced many Jedi close to the OT in any sources before 2002?
I think he faced like one or two... and got scared of a planet-wide army of thousands of villagers with pitchforks and basic blasters. In other words, completely opposite as oppose to modern day Vader...
I think he also fought the Maul-clone at the time, but that was labled as non-canon and Leland Chee had no idea what was going on.

@nedem: Simply because something wasn't the intent during the time the OT was being made do we ignore all the stuff that goes against its intent? I.E. SWTOR, OCW, DE, etc.

Originally posted by MythLord
I think he faced like one or two... and got scared of a planet-wide army of thousands of villagers with pitchforks and basic blasters. In other words, completely opposite as oppose to modern day Vader...
I think he also fought the Maul-clone at the time, but that was labled as non-canon and Leland Chee had no idea what was going on.

Thanks Wolf.

Rebels isn't Legends.

Originally posted by MythLord
I think he faced like one or two... and got scared of a planet-wide army of thousands of villagers with pitchforks and basic blasters. In other words, completely opposite as oppose to modern day Vader...
I think he also fought the Maul-clone at the time, but that was labled as non-canon and Leland Chee had no idea what was going on. and got scared of a planet-wide army of thousands of villagers with pitchforks and basic blasters.

Eh? What comic or novel was this?

Originally posted by Syndicate
Because if he never faced powerful opponents not long before the OT then that quote only accounts for a long period of stagnation where Vader didn't fight any opponents which we know is directly contradicted by novels like TFU.
Yeah, there's a contradiction. The intent with Vader's abilities depends on the authors. There's two different versions of him. One who was slow and not great until RotJ, and one who was great before ANH. Luke fought the slow one, not the one whose style was Djem So, Juyo, Ataru and Soresu, so why compare him to that one?

Originally posted by Syndicate
That's in canon which contradicts the RotJ novelization which says something along the lines of Vader being at his most powerful. Where canon and Legends contradict in composite threads we employ the source we feel to be the most accurate. I believe that to be the RotJ novelization considering it makes sense Vader wouldn't have just reached his cap by Rebels and never grown after that point.

but:

Originally posted by Syndicate
Then you disregard the older source as it's not accurate to what the more current writers believe/believed at the time. If sources that contradicted prior sources were passed through we have to assume it's because the prior source that has been contradicted is not valid anymore.

Originally posted by nedemette
Yeah, there's a contradiction. The intent with Vader's abilities depends on the authors. There's two different versions of him. One who was slow and not great until RotJ, and one who was great before ANH. Luke fought the slow one, not the one whose style was Djem So, Juyo, Ataru and Soresu, so why compare him to that one?



but:

Because if the people who decide canon allowed it to pass through then they obviously don't adhere to the line of thinking shown in the contradicted source.

Canon and Legends are two entirely separate continuities. My reasoning applies to sources that occur in the same continuity. I.E. two contradicting Legends sources like we have here or two contradicting canon sources.

If you're using composite Vader and looking at contradictions between canon and Legends then honestly just go with what you think is right. It's not like they'll ever line up anymore since Legends was declared null and void.

Originally posted by Zenwolf


Eh? What comic or novel was this?

Vader's Quest. Here's the scan:

http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111178634/5301018-bump.png

Well he doesn't exactly run away but it's a far cry from taking on an entire army of Rebels in canon.

That's hilarious.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Because if the people who decide canon allowed it to pass through then they obviously don't adhere to the line of thinking shown in the contradicted source.

Canon and Legends are two entirely separate continuities. My reasoning applies to sources that occur in the same continuity. I.E. two contradicting Legends sources like we have here or two contradicting canon sources.

If you're using composite Vader and looking at contradictions between canon and Legends then honestly just go with what you think is right. It's not like they'll ever line up anymore since Legends was declared null and void.
the people who ''decide canon'' don't decide canon based on if they think vader is supported to be good or not lol

But they do decide what is allowed to pass through and if they pass through something that contradicts a prior source then it's only logical that they no longer support that prior source as canon. That's the reason we had all the different levels of canon back when it was just Legends. They wanted some sources to be above all others so if they ever were contradicted you would know which source had more validity. The only good thing about Disney buying up the franchise was that they sorted out the canon mess by declaring everything made post buy out canon.

Well Myth to be fair, that's an entire planet against 1 guy. The sheer numbers would just overwhelm him.

Except it wasn't an "entire planet", they were speaking hyperbolically. And most of them were literally old people and kids, the rest were unarmed villagers. Even if they try to swarm him, he could just swing his lightsaber back and forth all day long until they die... Especially with newer sources showing Vader killing thousands of trained soldiers without much issue.

Originally posted by Syndicate
But they do decide what is allowed to pass through and if they pass through something that contradicts a prior source then it's only logical that they no longer support that prior source as canon. That's the reason we had all the different levels of canon back when it was just Legends. They wanted some sources to be above all others so if they ever were contradicted you would know which source had more validity. The only good thing about Disney buying up the franchise was that they sorted out the canon mess by declaring everything made post buy out canon.
whole fightsaber isn't contradicted because of one line, do you think they read through each source and finds specific passages thinking ''this is no longer canon''?

as an example, one source said that luke ''mirrored'' vader's form. luke mirroring an unique mix of djem so, ataru, makashi and soresu makes no sense, not even anakin had achieved that level with more time. luke's being compared to the vader he fought, not the one who fought marek

Well that's of course new canon, so yeah that's fine. But ok sure, not an entire planet...but that's still a lot of people surrounding him. Just swinging his lightsaber wouldn't really be able to cover every part of him, eventually one person would be able to knock the weapon away if they all charged at once.

But /shrug.

Revan.

I'm not saying the whole of Fightsaber is contradicted. I'm saying that passage from Fightsaber that's contradicted is. I don't know what the procedural of those that decided canon in Legends was. I'm assuming they did their research though.

Also if they pass sources that show Luke capable of doing that then we have to take that into account. Logically Anakin should have greater or at the very least equal potential in comparison to his son but Luke grew far more quickly then Anakin did. Whichever way you look at it's going to be unrealistic, regardless though we have to take Luke's incredible growth during the OT and his capabilities into account.

so luke mirrored makashi, djem so, soresu and ataru

I agree with Ned.

Originally posted by nedemette
so luke mirrored makashi, djem so, soresu and ataru

Yes.

lolk

use common sense, no he didn't

Why couldn't he have?

Originally posted by nedemette
lolk

use common sense, no he didn't

I don't think we're going to agree on this.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Why couldn't he have?
because the source says he mirrors vader's FORM V technique

as in, form v

not II, III and IIII V

and he would not be able to learn that either, anakin didn't

Vader mostly does use Form V but he also used II, III and IV to help to make up for his mobility restrictions. You could say he modified his form/fighting style to include elements from those other forms and thus the quote is still accurate.

But Vader did. And we already know Luke grew faster then Anakin as a combatant.

Alright. I'm off. Ell you take over.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Vader mostly does use Form V but he also used II, III and IV to help to make up for his mobility restrictions. You could say he modified his form/fighting style to include elements from those other forms and thus the quote is still accurate.

But Vader did. And we already know Luke grew faster then Anakin as a combatant.
you're reaching incredibly hard to justify your position

Not really. The TFU novel describes as a modified version of Form V.

Luke.

Actually Myth I found something regarding that scan you pulled.

One of them said after Vader had left, they should have taken Vader right then and there, that they had the power to end him, yet the Princess of the planet said they didn't stand a chance against him.

So... Vader's insecure?

Originally posted by nedemette
When the source says that the duelists were shadows of their former selves because they hadn't fought other duelists in years, which is then contradicted by TFU, yeah, it does create a bit of an issue.

In the EU, the way it worked, is if one source says one thing and another source contradicts the latter source is correct. If it's Pre TFU and TFU conflicts with the statement TFU prevails.

Originally posted by MythLord
So... Vader's insecure?

Probably just being cautious. Maybe he felt they might have had something up their sleeve, maybe he thought there was another army on it's way since they claimed 'planet', who knows?

For the sake of this thread I'm going with Revan but with great difficulty.

That's what I thought.

Kek, DE Luke takes this.

He does.