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1. Sabers

2. Force

3. All-Out

HoT trumps in all.

Really? :/

Fisto was able to beat Grievous.

HoT is around the level of Satele Shan.

Who got ragdolled senselessly by Revan.

In fact, all 8 combatants were thrown around senselessly.

HoT could, as well.

Fisto wins, good fight

If we take that Grievous to be peak Grievous then Fisto should win sabers.

It could go either way, Fisto has better showings though

Can I have some HOT Force feats?-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04YKG5_8mUc&t=4m25s (x4).

Despite the lack of Force feats, the Hero of Tython is more powerful than any other Jedi of the era, which includes Barsen'thor or Satele Shan.

He's also the most skilled Jedi, being the battlemasterm, speedblitzing Sith, and cutting through an army of Sith and Imperial Guards in the Dark Temple.

And, quite honestly, he's probably better than any of the other protags, which includes the likes of Darth Nox or the Emperor's Wrath.

He's better than Kit Fisto.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04YKG5_8mUc&t=4m25s (x4).

Despite the lack of Force feats, the Hero of Tython is more powerful than any other Jedi of the era, which includes Barsen'thor or Satele Shan.

He's also the most skilled Jedi, being the battlemasterm, speedblitzing Sith, and cutting through an army of Sith and Imperial Guards in the Dark Temple.

And, quite honestly, he's probably better than any of the other protags, which includes the likes of Darth Nox or the Emperor's Wrath.

He's better than Kit Fisto.

Hmm he's impressive but idk. I think he takes Fisto then but beats Wrath and Nox? I don't know

LAWL.

HoT stomps.

Fisto in sabers.

HoT in everything else.

Not taking his Arcann feat before we know the circumstances for sure.

Vanilla HOT takes all

This shouldn't be a thing

Losing to Arcann and beating scores of no name Sith >> anything Fisto has done. Yeah Fisto loses tell me when he can beat elites like Darth Angral

Wow. A thread which HoT actually wins.

Does he?

No

Originally posted by SunRazer
HoT trumps in all.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
LAWL.

HoT stomps.

HoT takes Force and all-out, splits with him in sabers

LMAO, Hero butchers. Suggesting otherwise is kind of insane.

What did the Hero do that was so impressive, besides beat an Emperor that was so weakened that the HoT could take him, which is saying a lot considering how powerful the HoT proved to be in later installments.

This is HoT up to SoR, since the Outlander isn't clear yet.

Fisto wins

The Hero of Thython is the premier Lightsaber duelist of his Day.

And may I remind you all, this is a time period where they had more fights against other blade masters, and they did have a greater need to exercise lightsaber vs lightsaber combat. Imagine entire temples filled with people like Mace and Dooku. If there is a prime age for lightsaber combat among the Jedi it's either the time after the Sith War or the time period of the New Sith Empire... and not a time period where Jango fett can solo-stomp Jedi with his bare hands.

Here we a have a choice between a high-tier Jedi Master primed for deflecting blaster bolts, and the best duelist of his time, where people like Dooku are commonplace. And in 1 on 1, the latter will always win.

Vanilla Hot wins solidly, SoR HoT wins with mid difficulty, Outlander nigh-stomps.

@Ant, Empire's Wrath > All tbh.

Add Agen Kolar & Sasee Tinn and the outcome remains unchanged. Although, I'm not certain the Outlander would stomp them in the same fashion Sidious could, but he'd come pretty close.

He's not beating the three of them at once, don't push it. One could argue he beats Tiin and Kolar but not the whole B-Team, this was a team designed to almost certainly defeat Dooku tier Sith Lords by themselves.

There is no reason why he shouldn't cream those fools in a few strikes.

The HoT did nothing significantly impressive besides beat Scourge, and an Emperor that as so weakened, he probably could've been beaten by people on the Dark Council.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
The Hero of Thython is the premier Lightsaber duelist of his Day.

And may I remind you all, this is a time period where they had more fights against other blade masters, and they did have a greater need to exercise lightsaber vs lightsaber combat. Imagine entire temples filled with people like Mace and Dooku. If there is a prime age for lightsaber combat among the Jedi it's either the time after the Sith War or the time period of the New Sith Empire... and not a time period where Jango fett can solo-stomp Jedi with his bare hands.

Here we a have a choice between a high-tier Jedi Master primed for deflecting blaster bolts, and the best duelist of his time, where people like Dooku are commonplace. And in 1 on 1, the latter will always win.

While I agree HOT takes this your premise is flawed. Don't forget that the Bounty Hunter in SWTOR defeats the former Battlemaster. He also defeated a Darth as well. He can probably take no name Jedi Knights with his bare hands.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
The Hero of Thython is the premier Lightsaber duelist of his Day.

And may I remind you all, this is a time period where they had more fights against other blade masters, and they did have a greater need to exercise lightsaber vs lightsaber combat. Imagine entire temples filled with people like Mace and Dooku. If there is a prime age for lightsaber combat among the Jedi it's either the time after the Sith War or the time period of the New Sith Empire... and not a time period where Jango fett can solo-stomp Jedi with his bare hands.

Here we a have a choice between a high-tier Jedi Master primed for deflecting blaster bolts, and the best duelist of his time, where people like Dooku are commonplace. And in 1 on 1, the latter will always win. Full on cancer.

Just because you repeat something, does not make it true.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
The Hero of Thython is the premier Lightsaber duelist of his Day.

And may I remind you all, this is a time period where they had more fights against other blade masters, and they did have a greater need to exercise lightsaber vs lightsaber combat. Imagine entire temples filled with people like Mace and Dooku. If there is a prime age for lightsaber combat among the Jedi it's either the time after the Sith War or the time period of the New Sith Empire... and not a time period where Jango fett can solo-stomp Jedi with his bare hands.

Here we a have a choice between a high-tier Jedi Master primed for deflecting blaster bolts, and the best duelist of his time, where people like Dooku are commonplace. And in 1 on 1, the latter will always win.

Nup that's it. I'm ****ing done. That's even worse than Cancer and AIDS, it's Jacob Sartorius

Mmkay, lets look at Vanilla HoT's best feats besides beating Scourge, which is pretty impressive tbh.

Beats Angral, and a VERY immensely weakened Emperor. Vitiate was so weakened, he wouldn't have even been a mild thread to Revan.

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Nup that's it. I'm ****ing done. That's even worse than Cancer and AIDS, it's Jacob Sartorius Jacon Sartorius is a ****ing kid.

You don't go after kids unless you're Leafyishere.

...Unless you're a kid, which honestly I haven't checked yet.

Edit: You're 21, ass.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Jacon Sartorius is a ****ing kid.

You don't go after kids unless you're Leafyishere.

...Unless you're a kid, which honestly I haven't checked yet.

Edit: You're 21, ass.

Take it easy. That kid is just cringy asf, I don't care how old he is

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Take it easy. That kid is just cringy asf, I don't care how old he is You should, scumbag.

**** off.

And man, I'm not saying I hate the kid it's just a joke. Like saying he's cringy is nothing compared to what he normally gets, people tell him to kill himself which isn't right.

Ladies, ladies, please... Put away your purses, there is no need to fight.

Originally posted by MythLord
Ladies, ladies, please... Put away your purses, there is no need to fight.

Haha my apologies, I'm done now. Lel

Originally posted by Chosen_Sith
While I agree HOT takes this your premise is flawed. Don't forget that the Bounty Hunter in SWTOR defeats the former Battlemaster. He also defeated a Darth as well. He can probably take no name Jedi Knights with his bare hands.

He does at one point, actually.

I'm sensing a lot of aggression in these comments.

And it likely has nothing to do with being wrong in it's most objective sense, but more because I put my finger on the weak point, a deep feasted insecurity that lingers in the back of a fanatical mind. Rise of the Empire Jedi are poor duelists, but I mentioned Dooku as one of the few exceptions-to-the-rule. But even then, his record leaves a little something to be desired compared to Lord Scourge - who realistically - would, and has crushed Dooku-tier opponents one thousand times over in centuries past. Dooku was second to only Yoda, yet a lot, if not most of the Count's renown came from being a political idealist. He was skilled at resolving conflict throughout the galaxy such as the Sevarcos Dispute of 52 BBY. Which was one among many missions that required no actual fighting whatsoever. So what about lesser thespians? Vos, Kolar, Tinn? Who could they have possibly faced of worth?, other than the remote blaster training devices in the Jedi temple?

When you think about it really, the premise of this thread is lulworthy.

The Hero of Tyhton VS someone who can't parry a Sith lord's fourth strike..

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
I'm sensing a lot of aggression in these comments.

And it likely has nothing to do with being wrong in it's most objective sense, but more because I put my finger on the weak point, a deep feasted insecurity that lingers in the back of a fanatical mind. Rise of the Empire Jedi are poor duelists, but I mentioned Dooku as one of the few exceptions-to-the-rule. But even then, his record leaves a little something to be desired compared to Lord Scourge - who realistically - would, and has crushed Dooku-tier opponents one thousand times over in centuries past. Dooku was second to only Yoda, yet a lot, if not most of the Count's renown came from being a political idealist. He was skilled at resolving conflict throughout the galaxy such as the Sevarcos Dispute of 52 BBY. Which was one among many missions that required no actual fighting whatsoever. So what about lesser thespians? Vos, Kolar, Tinn? Who could they have possibly faced of worth?, other than the remote blaster training devices in the Jedi temple?

Each other. They have been training for the day the Sith return. You're looking at it the wrong way. The entire purpose of the rule of two is to train the absolute best possible student and make sure he's trained to the highest degree possible. So the no-name Sith you see or the no name jedi you see? They don't exist in the rule of two. Scourge hasn't beaten anyone who's Dooku tier and the problem here is we have Dooku's feats. Most of the average Sith or even the average Darth do not measure up, feat wise, to Dooku. Are there people in the old republic that are Dooku's level? Yes but not that many.

As far as sparring goes? It's not that much different than real duels. If in a par during swordplay someone can't hit me it doesn't matter if he has killed 10-20 people. It's not going to matter. He's going to die regardless. Sparring was designed to get someone ready for a real fight. Amateur mixed martial artists do a lot of sparring and training before their first serious fight and some of the best ones have barely lost. Usually winning their first bout as well against another trained fighter. Sparring tends to be enough.

As for your last statement? HOT can beat Fisto. I'm not disputing this but he wouldn't last against Sidious either. Also Scourge is going down in a few blows too. He gets blitzed.

Hero beating weakened Vitiate >> Fisto.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Hero beating weakened Vitiate >> Fisto.

Agreed :P

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Hero beating weakened Vitiate >> Fisto.

2nd this

Fisto blitz.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
I'm sensing a lot of aggression in these comments.

And it likely has nothing to do with being wrong in it's most objective sense, but more because I put my finger on the weak point, a deep feasted insecurity that lingers in the back of a fanatical mind. Rise of the Empire Jedi are poor duelists, but I mentioned Dooku as one of the few exceptions-to-the-rule. But even then, his record leaves a little something to be desired compared to Lord Scourge - who realistically - would, and has crushed Dooku-tier opponents one thousand times over in centuries past. Dooku was second to only Yoda, yet a lot, if not most of the Count's renown came from being a political idealist. He was skilled at resolving conflict throughout the galaxy such as the Sevarcos Dispute of 52 BBY. Which was one among many missions that required no actual fighting whatsoever. So what about lesser thespians? Vos, Kolar, Tinn? Who could they have possibly faced of worth?, other than the remote blaster training devices in the Jedi temple? It's probably more likely to be because you don't have a scrap of evidence to support your AIDS-level conjecture.

@Beni, you should know better than to take his ilk seriously.

@Trocity, please just don't, not you, anybody but you.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Hero beating weakened Vitiate >> Fisto. Nah, he was so weakened that Nyriss would have made a complete fool out of him.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Nah, he was so weakened that Nyriss would have made a complete fool out of him.

Nyriss is arguably a Dooku tier opponent. "Even Nyriss.." implies > Fisto.

Originally posted by AncientPower
@Beni, you should know better than to take his ilk seriously. I'm thinking of the children AP, their uncorrupted minds need to be protected.

Anyway lets take a look at Ziggy's argument shall we.

-----------------------
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
The Hero of Thython is the premier Lightsaber duelist of his Day.Quite literally the only valid statement made in this post.Which doesn't necessarily translate into better duelists, not when you account for hundreds of potential instructors dying on the battlefield, the need for practical killing forms vs more complex techniques they have not the time to develop, and the fact that they lost vast amounts of knowledge and instructional material during the Sacking of Coruscant.Imagine being the key term as this is a nonsensical fantasy. Even in their day Dooku & Windu were prodigies; and having been recognised as some of the greatest lightsaber masters the Order has ever produced, are clearly not at all common.After the Sith War? You mean when the Jedi Order had all but been decimated? And during the New Sith Empire period? You mean the Republic Dark Ages when they'd been reduced to conscripting children and using medieval weaponry? Unlikely.

On the other hand the peak of the Jedi golden age, when they'd had 1,000 years of unprecedented peace to develop and improve on their combat techniques in preparation for the next Sith incursion, that produced many Jedi regarded as some of the best in the Order's history, seems like a strong candidate. Which as has already been pointed out, was just as frequent in the Old Republic era.Lol nah I don't think so friend, just look at this:

https://i.imgflip.com/16vlhn.gif

And and as we know from the Great Jensaarai, "those exaggerated sweeping slashes" are the trademark of somebody who doesn't no the next thing about lightsaber to lightsaber combat.

Originally posted by Chosen_Sith
Nyriss is arguably a Dooku tier opponent. "Even Nyriss.." implies > Fisto. Nyriss beat a weakened Meetra and a young Scourge.

...Lol.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
It's probably more likely to be because you don't have a scrap of evidence to support your AIDS-level conjecture.

There really is no need for this sort of attack. Now, I'm not totally avoid of empathy Beni. I understand how the human ego works, and how it has trouble letting go of such heavily invested concepts. You've spent a large amount of time arguing for your favorite characters, creating Ideas that are backed up by some level of critical-thought and a perspective that might be shared by others. It is such, that you think of attacks on your ideas as an attack on yourself, hence the name-calling, the anger and the AIDS. Is it really to hard to accept that other people might not share your opinion, and have some of their own?

Edit : I see that you've responded maturely, please keep the 'aids' hurling out of it. You never know, their might be people suffering from such diseases reading these posts. Let alone contracting the disease after reading them.

You've mistaken anger for amusement friend, now I look forward to your AIDS-tier response.

All-out, HoT takes this without too much difficulty.

Sabers, I'd say HoT is definitely above Fisto but not by a big margin, tbh. Still, takes every round.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Nah, he was so weakened that Nyriss would have made a complete fool out of him.
He was powerful enough to tank a ****ing lightsaber strike and collapse the Dark Temple, so shut up already about how he was so weakened a combatant weaker than Fisto could take him, because that clearly isn't true.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
He was powerful enough to tank a ****ing lightsaber strike and collapse the Dark Temple, so shut up already about how he was so weakened a combatant weaker than Fisto could take him, because that clearly isn't true.

Not just a lightsaber strike. He wasn't merely stabbed. He was completely gutted. The HOT sliced right through him.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
You've mistaken anger for amusement friend, now I look forward to your AIDS-tier response.

You seem to have calmed down now, yes. But the abrupt dismissal beforehand didn't do much to veil that blatant vitriol. If you could just keep those mood-swings stable, then I see no reason why this can't be an insightful, enjoyable and more importantly, safe experience for both of us.



So essentially Beniboying, having a group of individuals more prepped for battle and more focused lightsaber-to-lightsaber engagements... doesn't make them better than those who're almost solely training for blasters? There isn't even the need to Strawman this. You want to avoid something that should be common sense, that could be compared to the most obvious analogies, and disregard it because... personal bias? Yes, I'm going to assume the bygone Jedi were better than their successors, because it's the most logical and simple assumption, and one that doesn't require arm-chair theory to disprove. The fact is, The Old Republic Jedi and Sith had to experience far harsher environments, even in infancy. Jedi Kindergartens like Thython, are already a breeding ground for more danger than most PT Jedi will ever experience. Occams Razor Beni. The simplest explanation, the one with the fewest assumptions will trump anything else. And you want to accuse others of conjecture? Laughable.



They're recognized as some of the most skilled among their piers, but that doesn't make them special in the bigger picture. It makes them big - well trained - fish fighting in a small pond of backsratchers.



After the Exar Kun War Beni, and they weren't all but decimated there.




Advancement of techniques? Let's see, there is the evolved version of Juyo used by three people and restricted to everyone else. That's it. The theory of the next sith excursion is contradicted by 'Labyrinth of evil' stating that the Jedi were comfortable in their era of galactic peace-time and hadn't the second thought for Sith intrusion. Which is why they were focusing on diplomacy, study, other non-violent means and hadn't fought anyone for a thousand years.



There is nothing in the TOR on par with the humiliation Jango dished-out on Galadrian.



Unlike you Beni, I don't take solace in nitpicking combat-choreography. If you want to stick with Jensarai's rationalizations for why the producers want to make things look as special as they can, than all the better for my point. The Idea still stands, though.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
So essentially Beniboying, having a group of individuals more prepped for battle and more focused lightsaber-to-lightsaber engagements... doesn't make them better than those who're almost solely training for blasters? There isn't even the need to Strawman this. You want to avoid something that should be common sense, that could be compared to the most obvious analogies, and disregard it because... personal bias? Yes, I'm going to assume the bygone Jedi were better than their successors, because it's the most logical and simple assumption, and one that doesn't require arm-chair theory to disprove. The fact is, The Old Republic Jedi and Sith had to experience far harsher environments, even in infancy. Jedi Kindergartens like Thython, are already a breeding ground for more danger than most PT Jedi will ever experience. Occams Razor Beni. The simplest explanation, the one with the fewest assumptions will trump anything else. And you want to accuse others of conjecture? Laughable.



In TOR, Jedi Padawans have more combat experience than most Republic veterans.

It would be plausible to assume TOR Jedi are better duelists than PT Jedi if we hadn't actually seen PT Jedi in action against other saber wielders. But we have, and that pretty much makes it a moot point.

Maul was trained by Sidious as the ultimate weapon of destruction and as an extremely skilled saber duelist, and he's only slightly above Obi-Wan. It doesn't get more clear-cut than that.

OP should kill himself.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
He was powerful enough to tank a ****ing lightsaber strike and collapse the Dark Temple, so shut up already about how he was so weakened a combatant weaker than Fisto could take him, because that clearly isn't true.

He didn't tank shit, he died from that strike. And he collapsed the temple when he was incorporeal.

Defeating someone who collapses Temples for lulz while also being weakened would make the HoT Vader tier, yet a more powerful, not weakened version of HoT was nothing next to Revan who is Vader tier.

I'm not saying Fisto wins, but using the Vitiate fight to reach the conclusion HoT wins is cringe worthy since that fight is so unquantifiable.

HoTlander tho...

Originally posted by Petrus
It would be plausible to assume TOR Jedi are better duelists than PT Jedi if we hadn't actually seen PT Jedi in action against other saber wielders. But we have, and that pretty much makes it a moot point.

Nah, the PT jedi were trained to refight the Battle of Russan, e.g. lightsaber wielding opponents.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Nah, the PT jedi were trained to refight the Battle of Russan, e.g. lightsaber wielding opponents.

Even if they weren't, what we've seen from them so far pretty much trumps the 'TOR Jedi were better duelists because war' argument.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
He didn't tank shit, he died from that strike.
Aside from the fact that he's still alive after that strike :/

"I will not be contained. I cannot be redeemed. Death is all that remains and you will not kill me."

"But I felt nothing... you haven't killed him. Strike! Do it now!"

Guy seems pretty alive to me.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
And he collapsed the temple when he was incorporeal.
He does that shit even if you don't kill him... which is either of the lightside options, which are both more likely than the dark side option and two out of the three options lol

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Defeating someone who collapses Temples for lulz while weakened would make the HoT Vader tier, yet a more powerful, not weakened version of HoT was nothing next to Revan who is Vader tier.
Hardly for the lulz, but he's still an extremely powerful opponent.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
I'm not saying Fisto wins, but using the Vitiate fight to reach the conclusion HoT wins is cringe worthy since that fight is so unquantifiable.
It can be quantified if you observe Vitiate's feats in that state lol

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Aside from the fact that he's still alive after that strike :/

"I will not be contained. I cannot be redeemed. Death is all that remains and you will not kill me."

"But I felt nothing... you haven't killed him. Strike! Do it now!"

Guy seems pretty alive to me.

He's dying tho, and actually dies even if you pick lightside


Originally posted by Emperordmb
He does that shit even if you don't kill him... which is either of the lightside options, which are both more likely than the dark side option and two out of the three options lol

And he still goes incorporeal before collapsing the temple.


Originally posted by Emperordmb
Hardly for the lulz, but he's still an extremely powerful opponent.

It can be quantified if you observe Vitiate's feats in that state lol

Not in his corporeal form...

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
He's dying tho, and actually dies even if you pick lightside
Yeah because he an heroes and collapses a ****ing temple on himself.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
And he still goes incorporeal before collapsing the temple.




Not in his corporeal form...
No he doesn't, he's lying on the ground moving still LOL

lel watch the video again

Maybe you should watch it again. The Hero specifically states that he'll live and stand trial in the Lightside option and he doesn't go incorporeal at all in either option.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
He didn't tank shit, he died from that strike. And he collapsed the temple when he was incorporeal.

Defeating someone who collapses Temples for lulz while also being weakened would make the HoT Vader tier, yet a more powerful, not weakened version of HoT was nothing next to Revan who is Vader tier.

I'm not saying Fisto wins, but using the Vitiate fight to reach the conclusion HoT wins is cringe worthy since that fight is so unquantifiable.

Vitiate was still alive and would remain so if he hadn't of collapsed the temple on himself. Thats why one of the options you can pick is to try to capture him alive and bring him in for trial.

Gosh, maybe...... Revan isn't Vader tier then. I mean, in what way do you think an acceptable argument is "this feat would make a character more powerful than I think they are, so its not valid"?

No it isn't.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
You seem to have calmed down now, yes. But the abrupt dismissal beforehand didn't do much to veil that blatant vitriol. If you could just keep those mood-swings stable, then I see no reason why this can't be an insightful, enjoyable and more importantly, safe experience for both of us.Friend I'll stop mocking your opinions when they stop being laughable, looking over your response that won't be any time soon.
And yet you just did by suggesting the Jedi of the PT era were "almost solely trained for blasters", they were not, instead lightsaber to lightsaber combat played a key part in their curriculum. This is self-evident from say reading the Jedi Path, which puts just as much emphasis on saber to saber combat as it does blast deflection in describing the seven forms. Each Jedi was also required to defeat a holographic simulation of an ancient Sith Lord to pass their trials and Jedi sparring sessions were commonplace.

Does it nonetheless stand to reason that on average the PT Jedi were more focused and therefore less equipped for lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat than their predecessors? Certainly, but that doesn't mean the art was neglected, instead we have several masterful lightsaber duelists such as Sora Bulq, Mace Windu, Count Dooku, Qui-Gon Jinn, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Quinlan Vos, Yoda, Kit Fisto, Plo Koon etc. etc. whose demonstrated talent in saber to saber combat proves that 1. it was still being practiced 2. it was therefore still being advanced across the ages.

Something the Revenge of the Sith novelisation plainly attests to:
You mean the most convenient for you? Dismissing the various other factors at play and focusing on those that best suit your argument is to oversimplify the issue, and is not an application of Occam's Razor, but rather confirmation bias. And none of the other factors I've raised are based on conjecture either. So I'd appreciate it if you address them, or alternatively offer up a concession. No, in history. Which yes, makes them special in the bigger picture.Where they were decimated by Darth Revan and the Sith Triumvirate. That we know of, you realise the bulk of PT canon only covers a few decades at most? There are 900+ unaccounted years in which any measure of advancement could and were likely made. And that's without accounting for the thousands of years between the TOR era and the Ruusan Reformation. Colour me unconvinced that over the course of millennia only one significant advancement were made, when the Jedi were, according to you, supposed to be the most complacent. That's an extreme logical unlikelihood.

As for what's stated in LoE, I'm appreciate a quote as we are dealing with the same author here. Nonetheless while it's self evident that the Jedi had grown complacent by the point of the PT trilogy, we've little reason to assume this complacency was present over the entire 1,000 year period.So the Jedi Order's Battlemaster getting punked by a bounty hunter, isn't more humiliating than Jango taking out some no named mooks? Mmkay.Actually analyzing the respect eras through choreography does nothing to support your point. Not only does the Jensaarai's rationalisation suggest the TOR Jedi are equally inept in lightsaber combat, but if we for a moment dismiss his fanon and look at the facts, the PT Jedi, even when compared with TOR's cinematic trailers, fight with perceivably greater finesse.

We also know that the rationalisation behind the PT choreography was to, in George Lucas' words, establish the era as the "prime of the Jedi", so the fact that the TOR Jedi visually do not compare speaks volumes as to their inferiority.

Neph

Originally posted by Nephthys
Maybe you should watch it again. The Hero specifically states that he'll live and stand trial in the Lightside option and he doesn't go incorporeal at all in either option.

kek, what do you think happens here then? https://youtu.be/zoFNJ7UophU?t=9m12s

You mean, right after Scourge says he's not dead and Vitiate says "I will not be your trophy"? I think he used the Force to destroy the temple while lying face down, humbled and defeated.

What the hell are we even talking about now?

Well if you read my last 6 words its fairly apparent that we're talking about disgraced ex-poster Gideon. Tragic.

lol

Seriously, though, what's the debate over Vitiate's death about?

How cool Vitiate is. Dude tanked getting almost bisected.

So what's the stuff about collapsing the temple?

Whether or not he was dead when he collapsed the temple. He wasn't.

I've always argued that, but I'm pretty sure he dies in the DS version before the temple comes down. Not that it matters - as long as it happens in one version (ie. LS), then it's worth counting.

Also, those must have been some pretty strong quakes to bring down the Temple.

Tbh his body disintegrates as the temple begins to collapse, seems pretty dead to me.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I've always argued that, but I'm pretty sure he dies in the DS version before the temple comes down. Not that it matters - as long as it happens in one version (ie. LS), then it's worth counting.

Also, those must have been some pretty strong quakes to bring down the Temple.

He doesn't, Scourge says "I can sense him. He's fading, but not gone" before he does it. Meaning that he was still alive after getting bisected and having a pillar dropped on him.

And he'd be capable of far greater feats at the start of the fight, which the HoT still tanked and beat him.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Tbh his body disintegrates as the temple begins to collapse, seems pretty dead to me.

He doesn't actually. I'm watching and even though he does seem to disappear in dark energy you can still see him under it. Dem massive shoulder pads.

Ah, I remember back when Tempest thought that Yoda would beat the Hero "with difficulty".

Originally posted by Nephthys
He doesn't actually. I'm watching and even though he does seem to disappear in dark energy you can still see him under it. Dem massive shoulder pads. Well as a hollowish outline, he's clearly on his way out.

Regardless it doesn't really matter, not only is it evident he flipped the termination switch himself (much like Palpatine did in DE) but he should be even weaker in incorporeal form.

Well, if the point was that the HoT had to contend with worse TK, I'm in agreement, though I find it strange that the Temple wasn't just called down beforehand. There's always the chance that Vitiate reserved his powers somewhat.

Why would Vitiate collapse his own temple as anything but a last resort?

Also as side note, is there any evidence that the entire structure was destroyed?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Why would Vitiate collapse his own temple as anything but a last resort?

Also as side note, is there any evidence that the entire structure was destroyed?

1. True, but he would still be able to focus a greater amount of telekinetic power on the HoT, which is actually a very impressive showing for the HoT then.

2. Not sure. It's been ages since I've played it, and I haven't watched any videos of it recently. Does anybody know if it's still standing in the background when they leave? Too lazy to watch it again.

Well maybe it was achieved in a similar way to how Freedon Nadd caused a cave-in on Korriban, by triggering the energies of the nexus.

Certainly their is no particular implication of Vitiate having much control, he just causes the ceiling to fall in then pisses off.

And no, all we have is Scourge telling us the temple is collapsing, we only see the inner sanctum destroyed.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Ah, I remember back when Tempest thought that Yoda would beat the Hero "with difficulty". I remember when everyone thought that the HoT was legitimately stronger then Vitiate.

TL DR; The comparison between Bastilla Shan and Dooku is probably an understatement for the former, and the Hero is easily stomping anyone from the PT era bar Zonakin.

Ziggy, I enjoy reading your attempts to troll, but bro nobody is taking you seriously.

Mythlord is a closet-swotorian

There is no trolling, btw.

I hate most characters in SWTOR, with exceptions being Nox, Revan, Vaylin and Valkorion. The rest can all burn in hell for all I care.

That's all ready 4 more characters than I like. You massive fanboy.

Oh right, I forgot. You only love Tales of the Jedi, but hate TOR and hate PT with an even greater flame of passion. Good for you, you'll certainly achieve many things in your life.

Yeah, because taste in star wars characters is really reflective of personal merit and achievement.

I don't hate / like any Era in particular.

But when it comes to VS battles, then yes, the PT and OT are the weakest eras in general.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah, because taste in star wars characters is really reflective of personal merit and achievement.
Now you're getting it

Come on Beni, I want to see what response you come up with.

lmao. He's gonna get slaughtered.

There isn't a single person on this site who can out-argue me. Except for, perhaps, Nai.

He says, having yet to respond to Plagueis vs Krayt and in general with a laughable arrogance nobody takes seriously.

Originally posted by MythLord
Ziggy, I enjoy reading your attempts to troll, but bro nobody is taking you seriously.

Yeah it's hilarious how nobody pays attention to him. Makes his sdn.net persona hilarious in addition to idiotic.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Yeah it's hilarious how nobody pays attention to him. Makes his sdn.net persona hilarious in addition to idiotic.

The dead sea has less salt than this.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
lmao. He's gonna get slaughtered.

There isn't a single person on this site who can out-argue me. Except for, perhaps, Nai. Wherever Nai is I will resurface to destroy him. I'll get the Godzilla alarm whenever I am needed.

quanchi you're so delusional it's kinda cute.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
quanchi you're so delusional it's kinda cute. You will get yours come this December. You're another one who can't seem to think rationally over Star Wars topics.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
He says, having yet to respond to Plagueis vs Krayt and in general with a laughable arrogance nobody takes seriously.

I remember myself and other members having to remind of the definitions of word like 'duel' and the deeper meaning of 'holistic thought' and how it might relate to Force powers. I'm sure we can get back to that convo another time, but other discussions have taken my interest. Some on SD.net and of course, this one.

And yeah, there is not one person who can legitimately out-debate me.. apart from Nai. I know too many tricks of the trade. .

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
I remember myself and other members having to remind of the definitions of word like 'duel' and the deeper meaning of 'holistic thought' and how it might relate to Force powers. I'm sure we can get back to that convo another time, but other discussions have taken my interest. Some on SD.net and of course, this one.

And yeah, there is not one person who can legitimately out-debate me.. apart from Nai. I know too many tricks of the trade. . Ziggy, why don't you partake in the Trek vs. Wars debates then. Nai seems to have yielded so feel free to step in. I can post links if you'd like.

I know little to nothing about Trek Quanchi, and it's not of my interest.

SWTOR wanking has caught my eye so far.

Well dammit all to hell.

Yeah, no one cares about Trek vs Wars.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
I remember myself and other members having to remind of the definitions of word like 'duel' and the deeper meaning of 'holistic thought' and how it might relate to Force powers. I'm sure we can get back to that convo another time, but other discussions have taken my interest. Some on SD.net and of course, this one. Sounds like your making excuses, I accept your concession. How many people have you even debated, lol.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Sounds like your making excuses, I accept your concession.

Bb.. What's the argument here?

Who is cooler, me or Ziggy. I am winning.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Who is cooler, me or Ziggy. I am winning.

Oh, no brainer.

Naturally. Nah but really we are actually debating which era produced the better duelists, TOR or PT, with Ziggy seemingly off the opinion that almost everyone in the PT era is outclassed by their predecessors:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=15813232#post15813232

Anyway time to see what cancer Ziggy has cooked up for me today.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Naturally. Nah but really we are actually debating which era produced the better duelists, TOR or PT, with Ziggy seemingly off the opinion that almost everyone in the PT era is outclassed by their predecessors:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=15813232#post15813232

Anyway time to see what cancer Ziggy has cooked up for me today.

You want cancer? Take a look at this thread.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=628947&pagenumber=2

You don't even need to smoke a pack everyday.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Naturally. Nah but really we are actually debating which era produced the better duelists, TOR or PT, with Ziggy seemingly off the opinion that almost everyone in the PT era is outclassed by their predecessors:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=15813232#post15813232

Anyway time to see what cancer Ziggy has cooked up for me today.

Clearly he hasn't met Sheev or Yoda

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Clearly he hasn't met Sheev or Yoda

You don't understand. The choreography has unnecessary moves so clearly this means they don't know how to actually fight. (Yes. This is an argument being made.)

Originally posted by Chosen_Sith
You don't understand. The choreography has unnecessary moves so clearly this means they don't know how to actually fight. (Yes. This is an argument being made.)

https://media.riffsy.com/images/887c2f5ae670ad1529b81d5283bf77b5/raw

@Ziggy, there is some shit in your post (beyond your actual arguments) that my computer doesn't like and won't quote, so I've pared them back a little. Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Mocking is fine. I regularly endorse graceful wit supporting clever undertones, but please note however, graceful wit is not the same as calling dissenting arguments aids, cancer or Justin Beiber. I'm sure you're inventive enough to find some sarcastic riposte without coming off butthurt. But that has certainly not been the case here. I get it, you're upset. And when one is upset he is incapable of judging aright, hence the stale humour.Hardly worth the effort friend, in your case I'd rather call a spade a spade.

And if it makes you feel better, you're welcome to assume I share your salty tears. Don't you think this could have been summarised in a few short sentences, y'know, without the verbose fluff? Anyway I'm not seeing much new here. The PT Jedi existed in peace time, the TOR Jedi in wartime. Cool, that doesn't change the fact that the PT Jedi were nonetheless trained extensively in saber to saber combat, and as popular as the role of Jedi diplomat became, many still specialised in lightsaber combat (I mean do you really think Anakin spent much time honing his diplomatic skills? No lol), and even among the Consulars of the Order, many retained exceptional and lauded dueling talent.

More importantly though when push came to shove and lightsaber duelling became a necessity, those warriors among them performed. For example despite never having had the opportunity to cross swords with a Flesh raider, Qui-Gon was still capable enough to hold his own against Darth Maul in combat, one of the most skilled and highly trained Sith in history. While Obi-Wan, as a mere Padawan, mustered the talent to outmanoeuvre and destroy his weapon.

Then we have Plo Koon, who despite sporting a broken arm from being buried under an avalanche, was capable of easily disarming and driving away Asajj Ventress, who Luminara Unduli fought to a standstill despite being blinded in one eye. While Kit Fisto himself was capable of effortlessly dispatching Magnaguards purpose built to kill Jedi, as well as taking on and pressing the advantage against an even more deadly Jedi Killer in General Grievous.

And there are plenty of Jedi who compare to the above through both accomplishments and praise. So evidently live combat experience isn't necessary to create exceptional lightsaber talent, just excellent training. Indeed again, a great many of these Jedi have been regarded as the greatest duelling talent in the order's 25,000 year history, some, such as Plo Koon & Sora Bulq, by objective sources, not just the opinions of their peers (backed nonetheless by authorial intent.)That would imply I was ever of the opinion that the PT Jedi are holistically better than the TOR Jedi, can you quote me?

I'm contesting your blanket assumption that all PT Jedi are poor duelists, not the more reasonable conclusion that the more diplomatically orientated PT Order would have, on average, fewer specialised duelists than their predecessors. Hint, Fisto is not among these. But sure, I concede that they'd all beat Coleman Trebor. Uh-huh and whom might those be? Yoda, favoured by Fightsaber as potentially the greatest lightsaber master the Jedi Order had ever seen? Or his peers, Windu and Dooku; the former of whom fought Darth Sidious, the culmination of the Banite line's advancements in combative techniques, to an impasse, and the latter one the most talented and legendary Jedi in the Orders 25,000 year history? Or Qui-Gon Jinn who again held his own against one of the most skilled Sith ever, despite being passed his prime? Obi-Wan Kenobi who took on and overcame both Maul and Savage at once? Quinlan Vos who defeated the aforementioned Dooku in combat? Kit Fisto who again effortlessly defeated magna guards and overcame General Grievous? Or Plo Koon, whose been stated to be again, one of the greatest Jedi combatants ever?

Or perhaps you meant some of their peers, such as Shaak Ti, Agen Kolar, Saesee Tinn, Even Piell, Anoon Boondara, Depa Billapa, Cin Drallig and more besides, all of whom have been either regarded and/or shown to possess considerable talent in lightsaber combat; while only representing a fraction of the 10,000 Jedi in the Order, the vast majority of whom we no nothing about. And though I haven't been counting I reckon that's more than ten. More conjecture, aside from the fact you've used two examples to make blanket assumptions over more than 4 times as many characters, the examples you've raised are not even accurate. Obi-Wan picked up on Soresu to become a more rounded combatant, particularly to shore up his defense, not to become a decent fighter in general. In fact he was already "exceptional" duelist by TPM according to the Ep1 Visual Dictionary, and it was his mastery of Ataru not Soresu that handed Maul and Savage their asses in TCW. And as for Quinlan Vos, the only instruction he gains after leaving the Order is in the Force, particularly the dark side, nothing suggests he improved on his saber mastery after leaving. And of course all of them mastered everything they knew without almost any duelling experience.

So besides that, do you have anything more to substantiate this point?More verbose fluff, save the lectures for someone who cares.

As for your example, that would only be applicable if we were working off so little information, but we are not. Our knowledge of the TOR era and all the factors at work are instead, comprehensive, and the points I've raised in that regard are not assumptions, but facts. It is a fact that vast amounts of Jedi lore was lost during the Sacking of Coruscant; it's a fact that many potential Jedi instructors would have died in the field before having a chance to convey their experience; and it is a fact that a constant state of conflict would limit the amount of time the Jedi would have to make comprehensive improvements to the styles (and if the effect of the New Sith Wars are any indication, less time to spend training Jedi in general).

Occam's Razor does not give you permission to ignore this evidence, I'm afraid.

Evidence that suggests that while the TOR era would have benefitted from greater practical experience, would have suffered in regards to the presence of proper instructors and instructional lore. And in that respect do not have an overwhelming advantage over the PT era, certainly not over those who specialised in lightsaber combat, who in turn would have benefitted from more dedicated, advanced and refined instruction and teaching resources.Which proves the basics remain the same, yet within each form there are countless moves, manoeuvres and sequences that we know little about, and there exists not compelling evidence that these remained static, which is again, illogical.

Appealing to an absence of evidence does nothing for your argument either, rather it's fallacious. The perfection of Juyo only setting a precedent for improvements to lightsaber combat being something the Jedi engaged in (in fact Anakin made improvements to Djem So in his life time), and again, the likelihood that improvements were only made once over the course of 3,000 odd years being a statistical unlikelihood, this is not a difficult concept to get your head around, but I'll be patient with you.You are aware that its standard Jedi practice to record their training methods and techniques they developed for later generations? This is the point friend, the Jedi have had thousands of years to advance and improve on their combative techniques, and pass that on to subsequent generations.

But great, Dooku thinks everything that isn't Makashi and/or nobility to be shit, what's new?

And out of curiosity, how is shadowing the Republic military going to help them improve their saber skills hmm?

You recall wrong I'm afraid, feel free to look it up, and the guy who held the title was, yes, killed by a bounty hunter.

Whereas the fact that Jango, when fully armed, was unable to take out Obi-Wan Kenobi, despite having backup from the laser cannons on a starfighter, who would later drive away Cad Bane without suffering lasting injury, should speak volumes as to how outclassed the best fighters of the TOR era are in comparison to the best of the PT.

Cin Drallig's performance against the Chosen One being hardly relevant lmao.
Friend I'm only following in your example. If you didn't want to have a discussion about choreography, you shouldn't have brought the "Great" Jensaarai into this. But you did and now your even more of a laughing stock than before.

I would have figured people would stop trying to compare RL sword fighting to a Universe, where there are those who can see the future while fighting and move shit with their minds....guess that's too much to hope for.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
But sure, I concede that they'd all beat Coleman Trebor.

Nah, Coleman chopped down at least 500 Battle Droids during the battle of Geonosis and mastered Niman, which takes like 10 years to master or some shit. He beats a standard TOR padawan

Quote he chopped down 500?

You can count it in the movie, duh.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
Quote he chopped down 500?



There and a Battalion of Droids is..



At the same time, this makes Tebor's death make no sense.

I kinda feel sorry for Trebor. He had some big ass balls for jumping up and trying to kill Dooku, and if Boba missed I think he would have. Dooku just stood there lmao

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
I kinda feel sorry for Trebor. He had some big ass balls for jumping up and trying to kill Dooku, and if Boba missed I think he would have. Dooku just stood there lmao

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-xIJ0KLI0wE4/U3LwFGNKrII/AAAAAAAAGks/CUkA2JsQqeY/s1600/doc2.gif

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
I kinda feel sorry for Trebor. He had some big ass balls for jumping up and trying to kill Dooku, and if Boba missed I think he would have. Dooku just stood there lmao

http://images.techtimes.com/data/images/full/163416/meaning-of-vault-boy-thumbs-up-jpg.jpg?w=600

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-xIJ0KLI0wE4/U3LwFGNKrII/AAAAAAAAGks/CUkA2JsQqeY/s1600/doc2.gif
I'm ROFLing out loud.

I'm not saying Trebor > Dooku Lel. But just watch the clip, Dooku just ****ing stands there

Originally posted by Zenwolf
There and a Battalion of Droids is..



At the same time, this makes Tebor's death make no sense. Damn, I take that back, even the diplomats are badass.

That's cause he knows Trebor isn't even worth drawing his blade over unlike padawan Anakin.

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
I'm not saying Trebor > Dooku Lel. But just watch the clip, Dooku just ****ing stands there http://ww1.sinaimg.cn/mw1024/8e5e99d3gw1ervlvgxj64g20go09eno3.gif

Those gifs get me everytime , Fisto wins btw

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Damn, I take that back, even the diplomats are badass.

Well..yeah, I'm not sure people understand the placement of Jedi in general.

chingchangwalla is so adorably innocent dont make fun of him

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Well..yeah, I'm not sure people understand the placement of Jedi in general. Well in all fairness Trebor taking on waves of droids and such was probably within the context of the many Jedi at his side in the arena, not single-handedly.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Well in all fairness Trebor taking on waves of droids and such was probably within the context of the many Jedi at his side in the arena, not single-handedly.

Seems more singular, since the quote says he sliced through. But even still, I'm not seeing his death make much sense either way.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
chingchangwalla is so adorably innocent dont make fun of him

This is no place for weaklings, there's CV for that.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Seems more singular, since the quote says he sliced through. But even still, I'm not seeing his death make much sense either way. Well unless he was alone in some other arena where they were also fielding hundreds of battle droids, I doubt it.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Well unless he was alone in some other arena where they were also fielding hundreds of battle droids, I doubt it.

There were actually thousands of battle droids, they just kept coming, after all, the Jedi were directly under a factory.



But even still, I'm not seeing Trebor's death make sense anyway, in the arena alone he'd be moving, jumping and blocking/deflecting a much greater volume of blaster fire.

Yet he has trouble with Jango who's firepower output is nowhere near what would be going down below(a SBD outstrips Jango's rate of fire quite abit) and gets killed for it. Even when Trebor actually deflects the first 2 shots fired...