Darth Maul vs. Obi Wan

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The Ellimist
1. Force
2. Sabers
3. All-out

Round 1. SoD Maul
Round 2. TCW Maul

Legends and canon feats allowed

Syndicate
Maul.
Obi Wan.
Maul.

Ziggystardust
Threads like these leave me with a sense of longing.

ILS, were art thou?

chingchangwalla
Both Maul's take it, SOD Maul almost stomps

Petrus
Maul in everything.

Ziggystardust
Would Maul beat a hindered Anakin?

That is the real question.

chingchangwalla
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Would Maul beat a hindered Anakin?

That is the real question.

I'm going to dodge this question because I'll get roasted

Syndicate
Not a real question. Of course ya dingus.

Ziggystardust
Originally posted by chingchangwalla
I'm going to dodge this question because I'll get roasted

Well you're certainly not the first person to duck the great DolphZiglarStardust. Or as Nova prefers to call me, God's heavenly sent archangel of Star Wars debating.

Syndicate
Angel of Death?

chingchangwalla
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Well you're certainly not the first person to duck the great DolphZiglarStardust. Or as Nova prefers to call me, God's heavenly sent archangel of Star Wars debating.

Rightio mate..

Kurk
SoD Maul takes all rounds.

TCW Maul and Kenobi are too evenly matched. It comes down to environmental conditions and other variables at the end of the day.

quanchi112
Maul wins.

SunRazer
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Or as Nova prefers to call me, God's heavenly sent archangel of Star Wars debating.

And he doesn't mean it in a positive way, either.

MythLord
Honestly, Maul takes Force, Obi takes sabers and all out can go either way. I don't neccessarily think Maul's Force Advantage over Obi-Wan is as large as it was during TCW.
Originally posted by SunRazer
And he doesn't mean it in a positive way, either.

I assume you're an atheist, then?

SunRazer
Originally posted by MythLord
I assume you're an atheist, then?

I am, but when I described him as an archangel etc. it was sarcasm about how he perceived himself more than anything else.

MythLord
I'm not. I am part of the church of Atom, and he will engulf me in his glow!

ILS
Originally posted by MythLord
Honestly, Maul takes Force, Obi takes sabers and all out can go either way. I don't neccessarily think Maul's Force Advantage over Obi-Wan is as large as it was during TCW . I'm honestly considering starting up a charity for this particular argument, since that seems to be required for it to make any sense.

The Ellimist
Originally posted by ILS
I'm honestly considering starting up a charity for this particular argument, since that seems to be required for it to make any sense.

Dooku was amazed by Anakin and Obi Wan in RotS.

Ziggystardust
Originally posted by ILS
I'm honestly considering starting up a charity for this particular argument, since that seems to be required for it to make any sense.

A simple 'Kek' would have done the job mister.

And are you actually gonna argue this point?

chingchangwalla
Here we go...

ILS
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Dooku was amazed by Anakin and Obi Wan in RotS. Refresh me on the exact quote/context you're mentioning?

Beniboybling
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Round 1. SoD Maul
Round 2. TCW MaulThere's a difference?

The Ellimist
Originally posted by ILS
Refresh me on the exact quote/context you're mentioning?

I'm on my phone but I'm pretty sure Dooku was confident he could take them both and then was like holy shit they're good I'm getting ****ed.

cs_zoltan
Originally posted by Beniboybling
There's a difference?

Yes there is, because Maul gets more powerful with every fart he takes, while Kenobi stagnates during the most intense part of the war thumb up

Well at least according to ILS, that is.

ILS
He was taken aback because pre-TCW, Dooku last fought them when they used Ataru/Shien or something in AotC - they pretended to still be using those forms and then suddenly sprang their new, much more advanced technique on him.

Aside from in the context of AotC, I don't remember Dooku saying omgwtf you guys are way more powerful than when I last saw you.

ILS
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Yes there is, because Maul gets more powerful with every fart he takes, while Kenobi stagnates during the most intense part of the war thumb up

Well at least according to ILS, that is. Well, you tried.

I merely argue that there's plenty of evidence Maul would have improved post-SoD, and there's little that Kenobi did heading into RotS - but even being charitable and saying sure, Kenobi inproved during the outer rim campaign, there's no way you can argue that Kenobi Not only improved, but improved at such a faster rate than Maul that he can't be ragdolled anymore. It doesn't make sense.

cs_zoltan
Not to you perhaps, or you couldn't get erect anymore.

The Ellimist
Originally posted by ILS
He was taken aback because pre-TCW, Dooku last fought them when they used Ataru/Shien or something in AotC - they pretended to still be using those forms and then suddenly sprang their new, much more advanced technique on him.

Aside from in the context of AotC, I don't remember Dooku saying omgwtf you guys are way more powerful than when I last saw you.

Dooku also fought them in TCW though.

Petrus
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Dooku also fought them in TCW though.

When RotS was made there was no TCW tho, so that encounter took into account only their meeting in AotC.

The Ellimist
Well that out of universe factor doesn't really explain Dooku's thoughts.

ILS
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Well that out of universe factor doesn't really explain Dooku's thoughts. TCW retcons the quote from Dooku, unless Kenobi and Anakin used their autistic fighting styles from AotC all the way up until their last encounter with Dooku in TCE, and then developed unprecedented Soresu/Djem So mastery in a matter of months.

Not that it gets Kenobi out of ragdoll territory either way.

ILS
Also, technically, Dooku's quote is Legends anyway since it doesn't mesh with the movie, whereas TCW is obviously Canon.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Beniboybling
There's a difference? Again still holding my breath here for proof, I can only assume a typo and you mean TPM or something, as Maul does nothing but briefly rot in a cell between these two periods.

|King Joker|
Maul
Obi-Wan
Maul

and thumb up to ILS

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Maul
Kenobi
Meh

Deronn_solo
Maul sweeps.

ILS
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Again still holding my breath here for proof, I can only assume a typo and you mean TPM or something, as Maul does nothing but briefly rot in a cell between these two periods. Maul historically thrives in times of strife and when his hatred intensifies (take a look at his power growth from being stranded on Lotho Minor). After Savage was gutted before his eyes, Sidious announced his replacement, and he was kicked off his throne on Mandalore, I'd imagine Maul is going to be very pissed.

He's gradually growing more powerful during TCW for a variety of reasons according to Shadow Conspiracy (being filled with vision/purpose, him training Savage, etc), so I'm not sure why he'd stagnate over the course of SoD when aforementioned reasons are congruent with what he went through in SoD (grief, torture by both Sidious and Dooku, a war campaign against Sidious, Talzin being gutted before him, etc).

Granted it wouldn't be a massive increase in such a short time period but I suppose it's enough for people to believe SoD > TCW, however slightly.

|King Joker|
Rebels Maul must be pretty ****ing powerful, then, right, ILS? smile

Petrus
Well, he did better than anyone against the Inqs and went on to duel evenly against Ahsoka. smile

|King Joker|
Originally posted by Petrus
Well, he did better than anyone against the Inqs and went on to duel evenly against Ahsoka. smile Rebels Maul >/= Ahsoka >/= SoD Maul? smile smile smile

Petrus
Don't know about SoD Maul, tbh smile smile smile

|King Joker|
Originally posted by Petrus
Don't know about SoD Maul, tbh smile smile smile Let's compromise and say Ahsoka and SoD Maul are comparable as **** tbh smile smile smile smile

Petrus
I'm OK with that. smile smile

|King Joker|
smile <3

Beniboybling
Originally posted by ILS
Maul historically thrives in times of strife and when his hatred intensifies (take a look at his power growth from being stranded on Lotho Minor). After Savage was gutted before his eyes, Sidious announced his replacement, and he was kicked off his throne on Mandalore, I'd imagine Maul is going to be very pissed.

He's gradually growing more powerful during TCW for a variety of reasons according to Shadow Conspiracy (being filled with vision/purpose, him training Savage, etc), so I'm not sure why he'd stagnate over the course of SoD when aforementioned reasons are congruent with what he went through in SoD (grief, torture by both Sidious and Dooku, a war campaign against Sidious, Talzin being gutted before him, etc).

Granted it wouldn't be a massive increase in such a short time period but I suppose it's enough for people to believe SoD > TCW, however slightly. Meh, I'd believe it if it were stated, but I have trouble assuming it without clear evidence. Certainly the logic is sound, but there is little evidence to suggest he was imprisoned for very long at all, in fact from what I gather from the Wookiee, Maul's forces essentially pursue Sidious to where Maul is imprisoned, after which he promptly escapes, so he would have been there for as little as days.

I think a sizeable amount of time to meditate on his anger would have been required to reap the benefits. Anything else would merely be a temporary boost imo.

ILS
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Meh, I'd believe it if it were stated, but I have trouble assuming it without clear evidence. Certainly the logic is sound, but there is little evidence to suggest he was imprisoned for very long at all, in fact from what I gather from the Wookiee, Maul's forces essentially pursue Sidious to where Maul is imprisoned, after which he promptly escapes, so he would have been there for as little as days.

I think a sizeable amount of time to meditate on his anger would have been required to reap the benefits. Anything else would merely be a temporary boost imo. I would suggest a tiny gap between TCW and beginning-of-SoD, and a noticeable one between TCW and post-SoD.

@Joker I'm still unsure if Rebels Maul improved or not. Stay thy Ahsoka wank for now.

carthage
At least why would he decline? I mean he was lifting those massive slabs of rock that looked much larger than the stones Dooku/Savage were lifting, and he ragdolled the Seventh Sister with no issue (She can hold back blast doors/lift that shuttle). Also how would he weaken when he had years soaking up whatever info was in the Malachor temple??

Beniboybling
Well he's stated to have grown more powerful by multiple sources and he was able to freeze the Seventh Sister in place with TK so...

ILS
What sources, aside from the blog/article sw.com posted?

Beniboybling
The other blog/article sw.com posted smile

ILS
linkage

The Ellimist
Originally posted by ILS
TCW retcons the quote from Dooku, unless Kenobi and Anakin used their autistic fighting styles from AotC all the way up until their last encounter with Dooku in TCE, and then developed unprecedented Soresu/Djem So mastery in a matter of months.

Not that it gets Kenobi out of ragdoll territory either way.

I think we should prefer in-universe explanations to out of universe ones. Dooku should've known at least Obi Wan's fighting style from AotC anyway, so it's possible that he was shocked that they had gotten so good at their main forms. It's hardly unprecedented to have massive power growths in a matter of months (but wasn't it more than that?), and besides, doesn't the databank say that Anakin grew vastly more powerful from TCW to RotS?

Beniboybling
Originally posted by ILS
linkage Pretty sure you've seen both, but here we go:

"Although he has grown older and gained new abilities throughout his life, Darth Maul still builds on the teachings he received from Darth Sidious. Now, he's trying to pass them on to Ezra Bridger."

http://www.starwars.com/news/darth-maul-the-story-of-an-apprentice

"When we first meet him, this "Old Master" is frail, hesitant, even fearful. As the story continues, you see those traits melt away, but there's a flow to it. The more Ezra trusts, the more Maul becomes himself until, finally, he's at full strength and more powerful than ever."

http://www.starwars.com/news/ranking-rebels-10-highlights-from-twilight-of-the-apprentice

ILS
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Pretty sure you've seen both, but here we go:

"Although he has grown older and gained new abilities throughout his life, Darth Maul still builds on the teachings he received from Darth Sidious. Now, he's trying to pass them on to Ezra Bridger."

http://www.starwars.com/news/darth-maul-the-story-of-an-apprentice

"When we first meet him, this "Old Master" is frail, hesitant, even fearful. As the story continues, you see those traits melt away, but there's a flow to it. The more Ezra trusts, the more Maul becomes himself until, finally, he's at full strength and more powerful than ever."

http://www.starwars.com/news/ranking-rebels-10-highlights-from-twilight-of-the-apprentice Nice. Thanks.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
I think we should prefer in-universe explanations to out of universe ones. Dooku should've known at least Obi Wan's fighting style from AotC anyway, so it's possible that he was shocked that they had gotten so good at their main forms. It's hardly unprecedented to have massive power growths in a matter of months (but wasn't it more than that?), and besides, doesn't the databank say that Anakin grew vastly more powerful from TCW to RotS? It's possible, but unlikely, because it doesn't explain Dooku's thoughts on the usage of their forms. Also, it's their coordination in tricking Dooku that stuns him, not that they've improved leaps and bounds. It may make more sense to say they upped their teamwork between TCW and RotS? Or again, it's a retcon, because Dooku is speaking in an entirely different context from AotC, and there's no way of getting around that.

I believe it was only months since their last fight with Dooku was in the last year of the Clone Wars. Anakin did, but his affinity for the Force is infinitely greater than Kenobi's, so I don't see how the same could apply to him.

|King Joker|
Originally posted by ILS
@Joker I'm still unsure if Rebels Maul improved or not. Stay thy Ahsoka wank for now. Why are you still unsure, munchkin? smile

Note that with Ahsoka wank also comes with mad Maul wank, for what it's worth. *obsessively reads your Maul RT* smile smile

The Ellimist
For some reason it feels weird to conclude that Obi Wan never surpasses Maul.

Petrus
It really doesn't.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Petrus
It really doesn't.

Syndicate
Joker do you have the quote that states Maul degraded physically and in skill?

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Originally posted by The Ellimist
For some reason it feels weird to conclude that Obi Wan never surpasses Maul.

Petrus
Originally posted by Petrus
It really doesn't.

Dark-Kenshin
Originally posted by The Ellimist
I think we should prefer in-universe explanations to out of universe ones. Dooku should've known at least Obi Wan's fighting style from AotC anyway, so it's possible that he was shocked that they had gotten so good at their main forms. It's hardly unprecedented to have massive power growths in a matter of months (but wasn't it more than that?), and besides, doesn't the databank say that Anakin grew vastly more powerful from TCW to RotS? To the point of his powers having doubled, as Anakin puts it? And what does Obi Wan even mean by insisting that he and Anakin fight Dooku together this time when they fought him together the previous time, per TCW, as well? Nah, the only in-universe explanation is Anakin and Obi Wan having a sudden spout of amnesia.

|King Joker|
Originally posted by Syndicate
Joker do you have the quote that states Maul degraded physically and in skill? No such quote exists. smile

Beniboybling
thumb up

McP
Originally posted by ILS
TCW retcons the quote from Dooku(...)

There is no need of that. That part of novel is already retconed by movie itself.

Maul takes the Force
Split in sabers
Very small majority for Maul in all-out

Darth Thor
Originally posted by McP


Maul takes the Force
Split in sabers
Very small majority for Maul in all-out


Probably something like this, assuming it's Maul and Kenobi from the same time period after Maul's TCW Revival.

The OP didn't specify which Kenobi it was.

The Ellimist
^ RotS.

Darth Thor
^ In that case I'd give Kenobi the majority against TCW Maul, but give SOD Maul the slight majority against Kenobi.

The Ellimist
Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
To the point of his powers having doubled, as Anakin puts it?

Sure? That doesn't have to be literal.



You can f*ck up on something, not f*ck up on it a few times, and then still someone can lecture you by saying "don't f*ck up this time". Or maybe the last time they encountered Dooku they also got split. *shrugs*

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