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Don't know if people have mentioned this yet, but apparently Kun raised the Corsair, Naga Sadow's flagship, from Yavin IV in the same way that Nihilus raised the Ravager from Malachor V. Yes, the nexus and circumstances and everything make it suspect, but it's worth mentioning as a colossal TK feat:

Does this happen at all in the source material?

It's great Exar Kun has a new telekinetic feat, but we already knew he could do this (Kreia made pretty clear Darth Nihilus' status in comparison to the ancient Sith), especially with all the temples on Yavin IV.

Get lost, Ant. I have no need for Democrats like you.

Anyways, it's nothing to get worked up over. The Corsair is only 215m in length. The Ravager is 1200m.

It does put Dooku's cruiser hurling feat to shame, though

How big was the ship that Starkiller exploded again?

150m. Half of the originally 300m frigate.

And he shielded it as it entered Kamino atmosphere and then destroyed it to pieces, right?

Still better than what Kun is packing, although I'd say Exar is his superior nonetheless.

In fairness, Kun would've done this years before his prime, though.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Does this happen at all in the source material?

Can't remember if the relevant source material actually depicts this instance. It might've skipped over this/the time Kun would've done it.

Kun specifically states "if it still operates, I won't have to be stranded on this moon."

That's not a direct contradiction though, so I'll embrace the feat (acknowledging the nexus) for the time being, if only just.

Who cares? That doesn't indirectly contradict it, either. My quote specifically mentions him putting it back to service, so chances are that it doesn't still operate.

Anyway, yes, it was a nexus, like Nihilus, but both were also before their primes. So yeah, basically the same circumstances, but not as impressive on Kun's part.

Still puts to bed the notion of Kun having lackluster TK because of a lack of feats.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
It's great Exar Kun has a new telekinetic feat, but we already knew he could do this (Kreia made pretty clear Darth Nihilus' status in comparison to the ancient Sith), especially with all the temples on Yavin IV.

For the record, do you actually take Kreia's comment at face value? And put Nihilus below Kressh, Sadow, Muur etc. never mind Ragnos and Kun?

Still below Starkiller' frigate busting - someone Vader was >/= to, before becoming "far more formidable" all-around.

Originally posted by SunRazer
For the record, do you actually take Kreia's comment at face value? And put Nihilus below Kressh, Sadow, Muur etc. never mind Ragnos and Kun?
I put Nihilus below Sadow, Ragnos, Kun, and Muur, yeah. Kressh? Not sure.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I put Nihilus below Sadow, Ragnos, Kun, and Muur, yeah. Kressh? Not sure.

Interesting.

What about Nadd? Where do you rank him?

Kun > Ragnos = Hord > Nadd > Sadow > Kressh.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Kun > Ragnos = Hord > Nadd > Sadow > Kressh.

I thought you said Nadd was equal to Sadow. And where do Pall/Dreypa/Muur etc. fit into this?

Also, Ragnos being the most powerful > Hord tbh.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Still below Starkiller' frigate busting - someone Vader was >/= to, before becoming "far more formidable" all-around.

It's not as if Kun didn't grow exponentially after this as well.

Also, if Kun "made the ship serviceable again", ie. he made it operational again, would that be considered a feat of technometry/mechu-deru?

Originally posted by SunRazer
I thought you said Nadd was equal to Sadow. And where do Pall/Dreypa/Muur etc. fit into this?

Also, Ragnos being the most powerful > Hord tbh.
Perhaps in the past, but I'm very confident in my new chain. Nadd personally killed Sadow.

And the quotes for Ragnos were prior to SWTOR. I'm being generous to Ragnos.

And, hm, that's a good question. I'd assume the Exiles would be in the Sadow/Kressh range.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Get lost, Ant. I have no need for Democrats like you.

Anyways, it's nothing to get worked up over. The Corsair is only 215m in length. The Ravager is 1200m.

It does put Dooku's cruiser hurling feat to shame, though

The Corsair is also considered a cruiser IIRC

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
The Corsair is also considered a cruiser IIRC

I was the one who brought up that a cruiser could be up to 215m in length for Dooku's feat, which is the length of the Corsair. I'm saying that what Kun did to it is far better than what Dooku did.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Get lost, Ant. I have no need for Democrats like you.

Democrats are probably hardcore conservatives from SunRazer's Australicancer POV.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Democrats are probably hardcore conservatives from SunRazer's Australicancer POV.

I know the Republicans are the conservatives, lol. That's why Ronald Reagan trumps all.

The Democrats are the Liberals. In Australicancer political system, our Liberal Party is now the conservative party

Originally posted by SunRazer
I was the one who brought up that a cruiser could be up to 215m in length for Dooku's feat, which is the length of the Corsair. I'm saying that what Kun did to it is far better than what Dooku did.

How so would it be "far better"? IIRC Nihilus's ship was laying in orbit around Malachor V and he only made it operational again. The same can be said about Kun's Corsair, he made it operational again instead of litteraly lifting it up with his TK.

The flagships weren't in orbit. It says right there that they were buried and got lifted out of the planets with telekinesis.

That said, it does shut the book on Nihilus holding the ship together and dragging it around like some people suggest. He just lifted the ship up and made it operational again, just like Kun.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
How so would it be "far better"? IIRC Nihilus's ship was laying in orbit around Malachor V and he only made it operational again. The same can be said about Kun's Corsair, he made it operational again instead of litteraly lifting it up with his TK.

Lol, re-read the quote dumbhead:

"similar to the way Darth Nihilus would raise the Ravager from the ruined surface of Malachor V."

Also "The ship, belonging to Naga Sadow, was buried on Yavin 4."

Originally posted by SunRazer
The flagships weren't in orbit. It says right there that they were buried and got lifted out of the planets with telekinesis.

That said, it does shut the book on Nihilus holding the ship together and dragging it around like some people suggest. He just lifted the ship up and made it operational again, just like Kun.

It says that it was "raised" from the planet, that hardly means Kun used TK, not to mention that it seems kind of weird that a fully operational ship needed external aid to fly? I just feel we're all neglecting the uncertainties of the feat and using it in the most favorable way for Kun.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Lol, re-read the quote dumbhead:

"similar to the way Darth Nihilus would raise the Ravager from the ruined surface of Malachor V."

I saw it now, thank you. No reason to call me 'dumbhead' buddy.

Who said the ship was fully operational when it was buried? The quote says right there that Kun had to make it serviceable, and it mentions him doing it after raising it as well.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Who said the ship was fully operational when it was buried? The quote says right there that Kun had to make it serviceable, and it mentions him doing it after raising it as well.

Because Kun found the ship in a hangar...So how would Kun exactly first lift the ship with his TK and then secondly make it fully operational again?

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Because Kun found the ship in a hangar...So how would Kun exactly first lift the ship with his TK and then secondly make it fully operational again?

What? The ship was huge and a temple was built around it. And the quote above literally mentions that the ship was buried, and I pulled the quote out for you.

Originally posted by SunRazer
What? The ship was huge and a temple was built around it. And the quote above literally mentions that the ship was buried, and I pulled the quote out for you.

IIRC it was shown in Tales of the Jedi: Dark Lords of the Sith 5, that he found the ship in a hangar. It's still weird that Kun would first lift the ship and then repair it? What would happen with it in the meantime?

Telekinetic suspension? Making it operational might not have been that hard for him anyway.



It specifically mentions Kun doing it in a similar fashion to how Nihilus resurrected the Ravager, which was through telekinesis. You're trying to find holes where there are none.

https://media.giphy.com/media/jShr8wkP38XTO/giphy.gif

Originally posted by SunRazer
Telekinetic suspension? Making it operational might not have been that hard for him anyway.



It specifically mentions Kun doing it in a similar fashion to how Nihilus resurrected the Ravager, which was through telekinesis. You're trying to find holes where there are none.

There are a lot more similarities between Nihilus's case and Kun's, for example the fact that they both repaired an older ship in order to get off the planet their trapped on. You're neglecting all other evidence provided by more detailed sources on this matter, if we're going to go only by these kind of quotes Dooku is an equal of Yoda and has even penetrated Yoda's guard on Vjun. Yet looking at the more detailed sources on this, like TotJ is in this case, we see that there is a lot of extra information which influences these feats (Yoda destracted by saving another person or Dooku fleeing in AotC) which these limited quotes don't provide. You're assuming directly the most favorable position for Kun in this scenario, which is a possibility but nothing more then that.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
There are a lot more similarities between Nihilus's case and Kun's, for example the fact that they both repaired an older ship in order to get off the planet their trapped on. You're neglecting all other evidence provided by more detailed sources on this matter, if we're going to go only by these kind of quotes Dooku is an equal of Yoda and has even penetrated Yoda's guard on Vjun. Yet looking at the more detailed sources on this, like TotJ is in this case, we see that there is a lot of extra information which influences these feats (Yoda destracted by saving another person or Dooku fleeing in AotC) which these limited quotes don't provide. You're assuming directly the most favorable position for Kun in this scenario, which is a possibility but nothing more then that.

Repaired his ship? What? I'm not assuming anything that's directly favorable - the quote says he did something like what Nihilus did, which was to raise the ship out of Malachor V. You've invented a lot of false context in this thread already.

This is an old excerpt. Can't speak for anyone else, but the reason I glossed over it for all these years is because it's not so much a declaration of great TK as it is declaring that both Kun and Nihilus made important use of shipwrecks for their flagships.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Repaired his ship? What? I'm not assuming anything that's directly favorable - the quote says he did something like what Nihilus did, which was to raise the ship out of Malachor V. You've invented a lot of false context in this thread already.

The Tempest actually clarified what I meant to say and well you are neglecting things like for example how the Corsair was in a hangar instead of litteraly buried or how apparently sourcebook quotes now give the complete picture despite that I provided examples where they absolutely didn't.

The damage control is most pleasing.

The Corsair was buried in a chamber that contained Naga Sadow's alchemical apparatus. That's not even debatable.

Originally posted by AncientPower


You object, my child?

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
The Tempest actually clarified what I meant to say and well you are neglecting things like for example how the Corsair was in a hangar instead of litteraly buried or how apparently sourcebook quotes now give the complete picture despite that I provided examples where they absolutely didn't.

What examples? Your "examples" were made-up context that turned out to be false.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
This is an old excerpt. Can't speak for anyone else, but the reason I glossed over it for all these years is because it's not so much a declaration of great TK as it is declaring that both Kun and Nihilus made important use of shipwrecks for their flagships.

https://youtu.be/zEu_U78XFg4?t=217

I'm mobile so the time stamp on the YouTube video didn't work for me, Nova.

What's the line?

"Unfortunately for you, history will not see it that way."

Aha. Nice.

But yeah, I honestly don't see the validity of your interpretation. And given how highly I place Kun, there's no real agenda at play.

Yeah people are a little too quick to jump the gun on multihundred meter long ships being telekinetically ****ed with.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Aha. Nice.

But yeah, I honestly don't see the validity of your interpretation. And given how highly I place Kun, there's no real agenda at play.

Mmm, but there's anti-ancient agenda at play

Anyways, the only distinct aspect of Nihilus' telekinetic resurrection of the Ravager was that he used telekinesis in the process. Ergo, Kun's "similar" accomplishment would've also involved telekinesis. I'm hardly ranking Kun higher because he has it, lol.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Yeah people are a little too quick to jump the gun on multihundred meter long ships being telekinetically ****ed with.

Hardly jumping the gun. I noted the circumstances in the other thread as well. It's not overwhelming, it's just enough to establish Kun as a telekinetic powerhouse and not lackluster as some people suggest.

The question now is how much more powerful his telekinesis would be in his prime. After achieving two power increases.

Was there a nexus on Yavin IV?

Yes, and a powerful one at that. Hardly enough to dismiss the feat, though, considering, as AP noted above, he does grow in power afterwards... considerably.

Meh. Vjun seems to be enough to put Dooku above Vader.

When he did that, he had only just begun his ascent to power. He gained 'extreme', 'enormous' powers in the years after.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
It's great Exar Kun has a new telekinetic feat, but we already knew he could do this (Kreia made pretty clear Darth Nihilus' status in comparison to the ancient Sith), especially with all the temples on Yavin IV.
Somehow I doubt Kreia was talking about the guy from 45 years ago. You can try to argue Kun being "the greatest Dark Lord of the Sith," but that's not true either. I also wouldn't brag about placing nihilus on level with the Ancients anyway. KotOR II had an obvious disconnect from what they were supposed to be.

>numerous canon statements.
>'not true'

Originally posted by SunRazer
What examples? Your "examples" were made-up context that turned out to be false.



https://youtu.be/zEu_U78XFg4?t=217

They are as "made-up" as this quote is Nova. These sourcebook quotes are summarazing certain events in a couple sentences hence why the context, in which these quotes are given, is important. Like I previously mentioned, the fact that Kun's ship actually was in a hangar (and in a relatively good state ) compared to Nihilus's Ravager, which was literally buried, contradicts your entire theory. Nihilus had to use his Force Power in order to lift the Ravager up because it was buried while Kun in this occasion, as proven by TotJ, isn't even remotely in the same position (in Kun's case the word 'buried' has a completely different meaning then in Nihilus's case). So this proves that the context in which this quote is given is more leaning towards the resemblance that both Nihilus and Kun used an older ship in order to escape their 'imprisonment' (like The Tempest explained) then that both had to use their Force power in order to wrench their ships free.
Let's look again at the quotes of both Dooku's and Yoda's fight in AotC and in Dark Rendezvous. First in Aotc, we have multiple quotes (just like this one) explain that Yoda and Dooku were to evenly matched, which would lead to the conclusion that Dooku is a peer of Yoda in both the Force and as a lightsaber combatant, however looking at the more detailed sources (like TotJ is in this thread) we see that Dooku only matched a holding back Yoda and only statlemated Yoda because he decided to flee. So are these quotes which proclaim them equals (or peers) wrong? No they, quite litteraly, translate what happened in that fight however without telling under which circumstances this took place (circumstances which completely changes the general view on this fight). If we take a look at the second example, the duel on Vjun, where Dooku apparently penetrated Yoda's guard however (again) it's the circumstance (Yoda saving a bystander) which determines in which context this quote can be looked at. So it's even more evident that while these quotes provide us with information over what happened, it absolutely doesn't give us the right context in which to interpret these quotes, the more detailed source material (AotC movie, AotC novel, TotJ,...) does this.

You may or may not respond to this comment, please do as you choose but I feel pretty confident that this is the best case I can make for this thread, so unless you bring up some new evidence which would create a different context that actually supports your theory, I'm probably not going to respond to it.

PS I can provide the scan of Kun finding the Corsair in the hangar if you wish.

Well, the formatting is unappealing but I'll respond to it tomorrow. It's past midnight here.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
They are as "made-up" as this quote is Nova. These sourcebook quotes are summarazing certain events in a couple sentences hence why the context, in which these quotes are given, is important. Like I previously mentioned, the fact that Kun's ship actually was in a hangar (and in a relatively good state ) compared to Nihilus's Ravager, which was literally buried, contradicts your entire theory. Nihilus had to use his Force Power in order to lift the Ravager up because it was buried while Kun in this occasion, as proven by TotJ, isn't even remotely in the same position (in Kun's case the word 'buried' has a completely different meaning then in Nihilus's case). So this proves that the context in which this quote is given is more leaning towards the resemblance that both Nihilus and Kun used an older ship in order to escape their 'imprisonment' (like The Tempest explained) then that both had to use their Force power in order to wrench their ships free.
Let's look again at the quotes of both Dooku's and Yoda's fight in AotC and in Dark Rendezvous. First in Aotc, we have multiple quotes (just like this one) explain that Yoda and Dooku were to evenly matched, which would lead to the conclusion that Dooku is a peer of Yoda in both the Force and as a lightsaber combatant, however looking at the more detailed sources (like TotJ is in this thread) we see that Dooku only matched a holding back Yoda and only statlemated Yoda because he decided to flee. So are these quotes which proclaim them equals (or peers) wrong? No they, quite litteraly, translate what happened in that fight however without telling under which circumstances this took place (circumstances which completely changes the general view on this fight). If we take a look at the second example, the duel on Vjun, where Dooku apparently penetrated Yoda's guard however (again) it's the circumstance (Yoda saving a bystander) which determines in which context this quote can be looked at. So it's even more evident that while these quotes provide us with information over what happened, it absolutely doesn't give us the right context in which to interpret these quotes, the more detailed source material (AotC movie, AotC novel, TotJ,...) does this.

You may or may not respond to this comment, please do as you choose but I feel pretty confident that this is the best case I can make for this thread, so unless you bring up some new evidence which would create a different context that actually supports your theory, I'm probably not going to respond to it.

PS I can provide the scan of Kun finding the Corsair in the hangar if you wish.

Not gonna lie, this is completely spot on.

It goes hand-in-hand with Nai's philosophy of just because it was written, doesn't make it true, and how most of the 3rd person statements made in source-books are simply interpretations of things that happen in source material. It's ultimately information that may or may not be true, and if it's contradicted by the comic - it's literally worthless.

So let's see that scan.

If you have a scan of how Kun resurrects the ship and its not telekinesis, then obviously that takes precedence. I was under the impression that the actual resurrection wasn't shown on-panel though, which is why I made the case above. But tomorrow, I'll see whatever you present and if it contradicts the quote above, then obviously the source material takes precedence.

The ship was buried and the temple constructed over it. The bowels of the temple are the alchemical grounds for experiments. It isn't a hangar at all, the sacrifice pit is directly abovd it. There was legit no conventional means of the ship leaving.

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/3/3f/Tfotse12.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20100510202738

http://s1082.photobucket.com/user/JanusMarius/media/capturetdl1_zps2b1a1b92.jpg.html

Originally posted by SunRazer
Mmm, but there's anti-ancient agenda at play

Anyways, the only distinct aspect of Nihilus' telekinetic resurrection of the Ravager was that he used telekinesis in the process. Ergo, Kun's "similar" accomplishment would've also involved telekinesis. I'm hardly ranking Kun higher because he has it, lol.



Hardly jumping the gun. I noted the circumstances in the other thread as well. It's not overwhelming, it's just enough to establish Kun as a telekinetic powerhouse and not lackluster as some people suggest.

I'd say you wank ancients more than I undermine them tbh.

No, I think the passage is just drawing a parallel between Nihilus' and Kun's choice of flagship: resurrected shipwrecks.

That makes the feat all the more better really

I just read the comic and all we see is "Exar Kun has brought the starship to the light of day."

Originally posted by SunRazer
If you have a scan of how Kun resurrects the ship and its not telekinesis, then obviously that takes precedence. I was under the impression that the actual resurrection wasn't shown on-panel though, which is why I made the case above. But tomorrow, I'll see whatever you present and if it contradicts the quote above, then obviously the source material takes precedence.

It's not necessarily the resurrection itself, merely the finding of the Corsair in a good condition (contrary to the Ravager). There seems to be no reason whatsoever that Kun had to use Telekinesis in order to get the ship free, again in contrary to the Ravager which was literally buried on Malachor V.

Originally posted by AncientPower
I just read the comic and all we see is "Exar Kun has brought the starship to the light of day."

I can't upload my scan, it's to big. In TotJ: Dark Lords of the Sith 5 we see Exar Kun discovering the ship under the temple, I assumed it was a hangar because well that's the place most people save their ships. Even assuming that there is no normal way for the ship to exit the temple, which would seem extremely illogical, there is no reason to believe Kun had to use any form of Force power to get it free.

EDIT: If there really wasn't a normal way for the ship to leave the temple that would mean the upper part of the temple had to be destroyed, something which is unsupported.

It's just that it seems rather pointless to say 'Kun found Sadow's ship, turned it on, and left'. It's most likely meant in the context of it being an impressive achievement for Kun, and just starting up the engines and flying away isn't even worth mentioning, even if it's Sadow's ship.

Originally posted by Petrus
It's just that it seems rather pointless to say 'Kun found Sadow's ship, turned it on, and left'. It's most likely meant in the context of it being an impressive achievement for Kun, and just starting up the engines and flying away isn't even worth mentioning, even if it's Sadow's ship.

This is supported by? The quote just draws parallels between Nihilus's and Kun's choise of their flagship.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
This is supported by? The quote just draws parallels between Nihilus's and Kun's choise of their flagship.

Yeah, because Nihilus' feat was impressive, not because of the flagship itself.

In the end, this is all personal interpretation of context. I believe it would make no sense for the author to point out Kun was going to use Sadow's ship just because it's Sadow's ship, but rather he makes the comparison to Nihilus because it's something impressive.

Originally posted by Petrus
Yeah, because Nihilus' feat was impressive, not because of the flagship itself.

In the end, this is all personal interpretation of context. I believe it would make no sense for the author to point out Kun was going to use Sadow's ship just because it's Sadow's ship, but rather he makes the comparison to Nihilus because it's something impressive.

But maybe it's not about the Nihilus's feat? The fact that the situations aren't comparable in the sense that Kun's ship was in a good state compared to the Ravager proves enough. That's actually evidence instead of a personal opinion .

Where's it said it was in a good state?

Originally posted by Petrus
Where's it said it was in a good state?

The scan of TotJ shows it is but like I said, it's to big to be uploaded. The scan shows that Kun finds Sadow's ship in a big room (as big as a hangar) and there is nothing that could have damaged it or anything in that area. It's in a good state compared to Nihilus's Ravager.

For the third time, it is not a hangar at all, it is Naga Sadow's personal chamber of alchemical apparatus.

Either way, there's no reason for Naga Sadow to leave it somewhere where it's difficult to access.

Originally posted by AncientPower
For the third time, it is not a hangar at all, it is Naga Sadow's personal chamber of alchemical apparatus.

I said it was as big as a hangar to give an idea of well how big the room is. Kun finds Sadow's work in a room NEXT to the room where he found the ship.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Either way, there's no reason for Naga Sadow to leave it somewhere where it's difficult to access.

Finally

Impressive

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Either way, there's no reason for Naga Sadow to leave it somewhere where it's difficult to access.

Except he was actually hiding it for the day he could attack the stars again....

Originally posted by AncientPower
Except he was actually hiding it for the day he could attack the stars again....

So? He wanted to use it again so it would be completely unlogical (and unsupported) that there would be no normal way for the ship to exit the temple especially since we don't know the exact working of the temple itself.

Yes we do, we have an entire section by section cut-out of the far larger Great Temple.. which has absolutely no room for a full sized Sith Battlecruiser. The ring of fire that Kun killed the wyrm in, is above the chamber containing the Corsair.

Sadow hid the ship by burying it deep beneath the Temple of fire, he clearly didn't want his single genuine ship being discovered.

And how did Kun supposedly TK'd the ship, then? If it was beneath a temple.

Originally posted by Petrus
It's just that it seems rather pointless to say 'Kun found Sadow's ship, turned it on, and left'. It's most likely meant in the context of it being an impressive achievement for Kun, and just starting up the engines and flying away isn't even worth mentioning, even if it's Sadow's ship.

Sure it is. The Corsair not only plays an important part later on in the story, but it also explains how Exar was able to escape Yavin 4.

Clearly he had some kind of hole made for the ship to rise out of the ground, be it his powers or his Massassi work force.

Kun:

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/kcg%20kun_zpsjziioj2i.png

Nihilus:

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/kcg%20nihilus_zpsdbufejpx.png

Originally posted by The_Tempest
This is an old excerpt. Can't speak for anyone else, but the reason I glossed over it for all these years is because it's not so much a declaration of great TK as it is declaring that both Kun and Nihilus made important use of shipwrecks for their flagships.

Yeah nowhere is it explicitly stated or even implied that that TK is involved.

The two sections have a beautiful symmetry. Each Sith Lord made use of a derelict vessel for their flagship, the likes of which everyone thought was destroyed.

The Kunts are going to need to need something a bit more substantive to defend the notion that it's an explicit reference to brute TK.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The KuntsLol.

But yeah, I also doubt the TotJ comics would have omitted to depict such a momentous feat if it had truly occurred.

Ancientpower in panic mode now that Kun can only go back to Tking fodder Odan Urr

To be fair, it does directly compare it to how Nihilus "raised" the Ravager, which would be an odd choice of words if he were just generically refurbishing a ship.

The Corsair wasn't a wreck to begin with, it was entombed and preserved.

Furthermore, it makes a very clear distinction: Exar Kun raised the ship and made it spaceworthy again. The fact that it makes a comparison to Nihilus raising the Ravager out of the gravity well of Malachor V, only serves to help us draw this conclusion easier.

Talk about desperate measures.

Originally posted by carthage
Ancientpower in panic mode now that Kun can only go back to Tking fodder Odan Urr

Fully retarded. Odan-Urr, the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy, had his Sever Force attack rebuked and was one-shotted by Exar Kun, this a pre-prime incarnation of the Dark Lord.

He also has Force choking a group of melded Jedi prodigies, which shits on any of Vader's combative telekinetic displays, and this was a source-less, exhausted shade of Exar Kun.

Nice to see we've concluded Exar Kun > Darth Vader in telekinesis as well.

Even if we took your interpretation, that would not necessarily even put him above Dooku, who was TK'ing somewhat smaller ships but much more quickly and on a whim. Heck OCW Anakin did a similar thing to a dread naught. Exar had an arbitrary amount of time to gather his energies.

If Kun beats Vader it's because of his sorcery, not his telekinesis lol.

None of the ships Dooku dealt with can compare to a heavily armoured Battleship, the thing is an extremely durable battleship, not just some frigate.

Importantly, Kun didn't just pull it to the ground or launch it forwards at something. He lifted the thing directly upwards for hundreds of feet. I doubt I have to explain why lifting and suspending something is much more difficult.

Yeah, actually, the point of this thread was to get people debating what "similar to the way Nihilus resurrected the Ravager" means. I take it as telekinesis because that's the most distinct thing about Nihilus' resurrection of the Ravager.

Is it the most distinct thing, or is it just the only thing we care about?

Even if Temp's interpretation was correct, his logic must also entertain that telekinetically raising the ship for use was just as relevant a part of what Nihilus did as anything else.

I don't follow.

He's trying to claim it's just a perfect comparison between what the two of them did, but then that would also include the fact that Nihilus used his powers to raise the Ravager and thus the same applies to Exar Kun. Something supported by the wording of the quote Nova brought up.

No, I'm not. I'm saying that in broad terms, the two scenarios parallel, which is what the text indicates. There's no insinuation, let alone indication, of brute TK.

Except for the fact that you are ignoring the wording, which implicitly states he raised the ship and made it spaceworthy. A comparison is then made to none other than Darth Nihilus, a very distinct choice given his own raising of ships with telekinesis.

This entire sourcebook spends time giving love service to the Kotor era and yet you think in a stark constrast to the rest of the book, this part is meant to be taken with subtlety?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
No, I'm not. I'm saying that in broad terms, the two scenarios parallel, which is what the text indicates. There's no insinuation, let alone indication, of brute TK.

How can it indicate the two scenarios parallel without an insinuation of them, like, paralleling? :I

Originally posted by AncientPower
Except for the fact that you are ignoring the wording, which implicitly states he raised the ship and made it spaceworthy. A comparison is then made to none other than Darth Nihilus, a very distinct choice given his own raising of ships with telekinesis.

This entire sourcebook spends time giving love service to the Kotor era and yet you think in a stark constrast to the rest of the book, this part is meant to be taken with subtlety?

I'm not ignoring the wording lol. The wording pretty clearly refers to both flagships being of a type that the galaxy thought was destroyed. Each Sith Lord resurrected a derelict to use as his flagship. That Kun did so does not imply or require TK.

Originally posted by Nephthys
How can it indicate the two scenarios parallel without an insinuation of them, like, paralleling? :I

Your argument conflates similar with identical. The two scenarios can parallel without being exactly the same.

They can be, but the insinuation is still present that they parallel in that regard.

It would not say he raised it and made it space-worthy, if it did not mean what it clearly implies, the statement would be otherwise redundant. The Nihilus comparison simply serves to reinforce this.

Originally posted by Nephthys
They can be, but the insinuation is still present that they parallel in that regard.

I disagree.

Originally posted by AncientPower
It would not say he raised it and made it space-worthy, if it did not mean what it clearly implies, the statement would be otherwise redundant. The Nihilus comparison simply serves to reinforce this.

And I might agree if the only way Kun could possibly resurrect and repair the vessel would be via brute TK. But that's not the case.

Making it space-worthy would make a generic statement about raising the ship redundant however.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Making it space-worthy would make a generic statement about raising the ship redundant however.

As you say, it had a massive temple built around it. The process is twofold: retrieve the ship, repair the ship.

None of which insinuates, let alone requires, brute TK.

Given that the ship is visibly seen leaving directly after he finds it, and the temple is next to it, that doesn't make sense.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Given that the ship is visibly seen leaving directly after he finds it, and the temple is next to it, that doesn't make sense.

....what?

Tbh what I don't get is why this is even necessary. As you yourself highlighted AP the Corsair was not a wreck, it was preserved, nor was it literally buried, it's sitting in a hangar quite undamaged.

Why therefore would it be necessary to remove it using TK? What could Kun possible achieve that its engines couldn't accomplish on its own?

Tempest's assessment is still the most functional here, that the comparison being made is between two Sith Lords who made a derelict and "buried" ship space-worthy again, but not necessarily through identical means.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Tbh what I don't get is why this is even necessary. As you yourself highlighted AP the Corsair was not a wreck, it was preserved, nor was it literally buried, it's sitting in a hangar quite undamaged.

Why therefore would it be necessary to remove it using TK? What could Kun possible achieve that its engines could accomplish on its own?

Tempest's assessment is still the most functional here, that the comparison being made is between two Sith Lords who made a derelict and "buried" ship space-worthy again, but not necessarily through identical means.

Kun even claims that "if it still operates," he won't be stranded, implying that if it's not, he's screwed.

It's obvious that Nihilus had to use TK because the Ravager was litteraly buried on Malachor V while the Corsair isn't. If Kun had to use TK in order to free the ship (which is never indicated since the situations are different) then he had to destroy the upper part of the temple (or at least a significant part of the temple) which is never indicated. The referrence is, because of the presented evidence, in context to both Nihilus's and Kun's choice of flagship.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Kun even claims that "if it still operates," he won't be stranded, implying that if it's not, he's screwed. Quite.

The only thing I can't seem to find is the scan where the Corsair actually departs. The last I see of it is in #5 when Kun finds it and then in issue #6 Kun shows up on Cinnagar.

Perhaps its in the limited gloss edition.

It's on page 183 of the Omnibus, it states Kun brought the ship to the light of day.

No statement or reference at all is made to establish the idea that he artificially created a means to raise the ship.

Instead we have a statement referring to Exar Kun raising the ship and making it spaceworthy. The idea that the comparison to Nihilus, is on them both using ship wrecks, is itself flawed. The Corsair wasn't a wreck, it was entombed within the bowels of the Temple of Fire.

That is where the comparison is made, Exar Kun raised the Corsair out of the Temple and Nihilus raised the Ravager out of Malachor V. The specific term 'raise' is conspicuous, instead of simply exhumed or dug out.

I also found another great feat for Exar Kun, he was capable of blinding every technician on Cinnagar to his ship's attack and caused them to sit there ignorantly whilst he killed them.

Another would imply the first was valid.

It is valid, to anybody not with an agenda to imply otherwise.

So says the biggest Kunt Kunite on KMC. mmm

Any closer to proving it? Temp seems to have you backed into a corner by my judgement.

EDIT: Ah I see your edit now, pretty weak tbh and didn't address my question.

Yeh, because there aren't five others sharing my position.

I've already made an argument, which you glossed over:

Originally posted by AncientPower
It's on page 183 of the Omnibus, it states Kun brought the ship to the light of day.

No statement or reference at all is made to establish the idea that he artificially created a means to raise the ship.

Instead we have a statement referring to Exar Kun raising the ship and making it spaceworthy. The idea that the comparison to Nihilus, is on them both using ship wrecks, is itself flawed. The Corsair wasn't a wreck, it was entombed within the bowels of the Temple of Fire.

That is where the comparison is made, Exar Kun raised the Corsair out of the Temple and Nihilus raised the Ravager out of Malachor V. The specific term 'raise' is conspicuous, instead of simply 'exhumed' or 'dug out'.

The wording is blatantly clear and the circumstances really aren't comparable unless you factor in TK. You're seeing what you want to see, when the answer is obvious.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Kun even claims that "if it still operates," he won't be stranded, implying that if it's not, he's screwed.

That just means he can't TK it into hyperspace.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Yeh, because there aren't five others sharing my position.That wasn't my point, rather than you above all have the most to gain from this quote, therefore to call others out as biased is laughable to say the least.Which didn't address my question, regardless let's give it a look over.Originally posted by AncientPower
No statement or reference at all is made to establish the idea that he artificially created a means to raise the ship.Are you familiar with the concept of engines? Repulsors? Do you seriously believe he TK'ed it all the way to Empress Teta?Actually it says he "put in back into service", you know, after being out of use for centuries. With Kun musing that he'll only be able to escape if the ship is still operable.Exactly, so why on earth does it need TK to fly?

Regardless they still bear similarities in the respect they are both abandoned vessels collecting cobwebs which were subsequently "resurrected".Except Nihilus' needed excavating, Kun's simply did not. Raise simply meaning elevate, but not through what means.Originally posted by The Ellimist
That just means he can't TK it into hyperspace. "Could" just mean. Don't pass off your conjecture as fact.

Originally posted by AncientPower
It's on page 183 of the Omnibus, it states Kun brought the ship to the light of day.

No statement or reference at all is made to establish the idea that he artificially created a means to raise the ship.

Instead we have a statement referring to Exar Kun raising the ship and making it spaceworthy. The idea that the comparison to Nihilus, is on them both using ship wrecks, is itself flawed. The Corsair wasn't a wreck, it was entombed within the bowels of the Temple of Fire.

That is where the comparison is made, Exar Kun raised the Corsair out of the Temple and Nihilus raised the Ravager out of Malachor V. The specific term 'raise' is conspicuous, instead of simply exhumed or dug out.

Substitute derelict for wreck and it's still analogous. The text for both excerpts state that each Sith Lord appropriated for his flagship a vessel the likes of which everyone thought was destroyed.

There's no reference to telekinesis lol. You are manufacturing a context that simply isn't there.

I haven't read the whole discussion, but the quote mentions Kun's resurrection of the Corsair being similar to the way that Nihilus resurrected the Ravager, which was through TK. That's my interpretation of it, anyway.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I haven't read the whole discussion, but the quote mentions Kun's resurrection of the Corsair being similar to the way that Nihilus resurrected the Ravager, which was through TK. That's my interpretation of it, anyway.

Context Nova context I would have agreed with that interpretation but seeing that the very reason why Nihilus needed to use TK (because the Ravager was buried) is lacking in Kun's case it seems that the context was more referring to they're choice of flagship.

It's entombed within a massive temple, if anything it would be even more difficult.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Context Nova context I would have agreed with that interpretation but seeing that the very reason why Nihilus needed to use TK (because the Ravager was buried) is lacking in Kun's case it seems that the context was more referring to they're choice of flagship.

Their choice of flagship has nothing to do with the way they resurrect the ship, which is what's similar between Kun and Nihilus. The similarity in question was specifically stated to be tied directly to the way that Nihilus resurrected his ship, which was through TK, so frankly, I'm not seeing much of a counter-argument.

Also, who said it wasn't necessary for Kun to use telekinesis? The ship was buried and had a temple built around it, and we don't see it actually happening, so you can't say it was lacking in Kun's case.

The ship was not buried, it was sitting a giant hangar:

http://static8.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11111/111114474/4292534-softens+long+fall2.jpg

Was it surrounded by four walls? Yes. But seeing as nothing is stopping Kun from hopping into the cockpit and turning on the engines, I continue to fail to see a reason why TK was necessary in excavating it.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
The ship was not buried, it was sitting a giant hangar:

http://static8.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11111/111114474/4292534-softens+long+fall2.jpg

Was it surrounded by four walls? Yes. But seeing as nothing is stopping Kun from hopping in to the cockpit and turning on the engines, I continue to fail to see a reason why TK was necessary in excavating it.

Damn, nice.

Except that isn't a hangar, it's the bowels of the temple.

That's not the point, point is it's a large open space in which the ship is more than accessible.

So please explain to me why TK is necessary to do anything the engines couldn't manage.

Who cares? He easily could have gotten into the ship and used its engines, which he'd have to do anyway for it to be worth anything, unless if he TKs it into hyperspace. And this conveniently messes up Nihilus's feat by their comparison too.

Edit: Beni beat me to it

Because it states that Exar Kun raised it (as in, out of an enclosed space, i.e. an enormous temple) and made the ship spaceworthy again. He didn't do one or the other but both. Just like Darth Nihilus did.

That doesn't mean he used tk to lift it when he could've just used its engines...

Originally posted by AncientPower
Because it states that Exar Kun raised it (as in, out of an enclosed space, i.e. an enormous temple) and made the ship spaceworthy again. He didn't do one or the other but both. Just like Darth Nihilus did. Oh my, you are unbelievably stupid, or just terribly biased.

AlsoOriginally posted by The_Tempest
Your argument conflates similar with identical. The two scenarios can parallel without being exactly the same.

He raised it and made it spaceworthy, using the engines to raise the ship when he hadn't yet made the ship spaceworthy is simply illogical. I'd also like to know how 'engines' gets a battleship through walls.

Where does it say he made it space worthy? We've already gone over this lol.

And I'd imagine the same way TK would, by smashing through them.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Oh my, you are unbelievably stupid, or just terribly biased.

He raised it and made the ship spaceworthy, similar to the way Nihilus did. In what realm of the English language does that mean 'engines'?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
it says he "put in back into service", you know, after being out of use for centuries . With Kun musing that he'll only be able to escape if the ship is still operable. To which I'd add that lifting it out of the temple wouldn't suddenly make it function lol.Originally posted by AncientPower
He raised it and made the ship spaceworthy, similar to the way Nihilus did. In what realm of the English language does that mean 'engines'? Because "raise" means lift and that's what engines do god.

Functioning engines != spaceworthy...

"put it back to service" = make it spaceworthy... not the act of using it as a flagship or anything.

edit

Lol no it doesn't, it means reinstate, put back into use. Not that TKing something would again, make it spaceworthy.