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Round 1: Sabers only
Round 2: Force only
Round 3: All out

- Both at their peak

Not too familiar with amps the Legends variant has given him. As far as Disney canon is concerned, Ventress slaughter house. I have prime Ventress above TPM Maul who was most certainly above Quigon Jinn.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
Not too familiar with amps the Legends variant has given him. As far as Disney canon is concerned, Ventress slaughter house. I have prime Ventress above TPM Maul who was most certainly above Quigon Jinn. No you don't.

Maul was almost Dooku-level, the hell?

And that was before he came back in TCW.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
No you don't.

Maul was almost Dooku-level, the hell?

And that was before he came back in TCW. Again, Disney Canon. Nothing in Disney canon to suggest Quigon was almost Dooku level, much less a peer with Mace.

Oh wait, you're suggesting TPM Maul is almost Dooku-level? Eh . . . I don't see that. I know people like to brush TPM Kenobi's feat against Maul aside, but it certainly spoke volumes of Maul's flaws as a duelist. He's a great duelist, don't get me wrong, but there are certain things that keep him from being Dooku's peer and that is one of them. Ask yourself how Dooku would've performed in that exact same situation and the answer will be clear.

Ventress was a very competent duelist but this is both at their peak. Jinn was said to be one of the order's best with a lightsaber.

Ventress, but Qui-Gon gives her one hell of a fight.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Ventress, but Qui-Gon gives her one hell of a fight.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
Oh wait, you're suggesting TPM Maul is almost Dooku-level? Eh . . . I don't see that. I know people like to brush TPM Kenobi's feat against Maul aside, but it certainly spoke volumes of Maul's flaws as a duelist. He's a great duelist, don't get me wrong, but there are certain things that keep him from being Dooku's peer and that is one of them. Ask yourself how Dooku would've performed in that exact same situation and the answer will be clear. You should, its canon, it was in Fightsaber.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
You should, its canon, it was in Fightsaber. What did Fightsaber say specifically?

There was an entire by page baased around the battle, a few pages, actually, and the consensus was that Dooku took it, but JUST barely, and this was before TCW.

Ventress in all.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
There was an entire by page baased around the battle, a few pages, actually, and the consensus was that Dooku took it, but JUST barely, and this was before TCW.

Yeah, TCW Maul is only barely above Kenobi. In saber combat, Dooku is solidly above any incarnation of Maul, except perhaps Rebels.

Ventress, decent fight, though.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
You should, its canon, it was in Fightsaber. Wasn'it said that Fisto would beat TPM maul in one of those fightsaber too? Aniway Ventress in a good fight

Bump. They're about even in terms of straight up skill; Qui-Gon's physically stronger and could strain Asajj that way but Ventress is faster and more nimble. The big thing is that Ventress' stamina is better than Qui-Gon's. I suspect most people would favour Ventress, including myself at first, but I'm wondering if Qui-Gon's encyclopedic knowledge of Makashi would give him the edge he needs to win a majority here.

Ventress vs tpm maul is a better fight tbh

Maul's better. And Maul doesn't have an encyclopedic knowledge of Makashi as Qui-Gon does.

As of tpm?

Yeah.

based on?
I hope its more than maul being a tier 8

Originally posted by SunRazer
Bump. They're about even in terms of straight up skill; Qui-Gon's physically stronger and could strain Asajj that way but Ventress is faster and more nimble. The big thing is that Ventress' stamina is better than Qui-Gon's. I suspect most people would favour Ventress, including myself at first, but I'm wondering if Qui-Gon's encyclopedic knowledge of Makashi would give him the edge he needs to win a majority here. She's also more powerful.

Yeah, I was focusing on sabers in that part.

All-out and Force I'd definitely give to Ventress.

yea not sure what qui gon's strength is doing vs someone who's dealt with tcw anakin/ tcw kenobi throughout the war or who when with two blades was stalemating oppress under unfavorable circumstances.

Also skill wise, driving back dooku, beating fisto while massvely pre prime, holding her own with tcw anakin/kenobi seems better to me than fighting evenly with tpm maul with the aid of someone who was by this point already approaching qui gon in skill.

And while qui gon may have indepth knowledge of makashi, ventress has already faced kenobi multiple times, someone's who's ataru application is certainly superior to qui gon's given how it fared vs a superior version of maul

And yea there's also her being more powerful

Siding with ventress

Ventress.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
yea not sure what qui gon's strength is doing vs someone who's dealt with tcw anakin/ tcw kenobi throughout the war or who when with two blades was stalemating oppress under unfavorable circumstances.

Ventress has only fought them in the early stages of TCW - their strength feats up to then aren't better than going head-to-head with Maul; not even as good, actually.

The point about Savage is fair.



That was very brief. Qui-Gon drove back Maul for a substantially longer period of time on Naboo, and was able to do it consistently against Maul on Tatooine as opposed to Ventress only being able to do it once.

For the record, even AotC Obi-Wan managed this briefly and yet Dooku was still left expecting more from Qui-Gon's legacy.



With a form that specifically countered his. And after studying him. Given Qui-Gon's own superiority to Kit, this isn't something out of Qui-Gon's paygrade in the slightest.



Is there a specific quote for Obi-Wan approaching Qui-Gon in skill?

And no, Qui-Gon was a match for Maul on Tatooine until he started tiring.



A bit of an understatement here. Qui-Gon doesn't just have an "in-depth knowledge" of Makashi; he's mastered the form, and more importantly, has sparred with Dooku thousands of times - an amount sufficient to give Dooku encyclopedic knowledge on Ataru and its weaknesses. One can surmise that the same would be true for Qui-Gon and Makashi.

By contrast, Ventress is no doubt familiar with Ataru but certainly doesn't have anything approaching Qui-Gon's handle on Makashi. She will probably recognise some of Qui-Gon's techniques through her experiences with Obi-Wan, but that won't be the same as Qui-Gon knowing all of her moves. After all, Ventress is established by sources as using Dooku's specific fighting style (just an imperfect version of it), and Qui-Gon, having sparred thousands of times with Dooku, would literally know every move she makes and how to counter it.

As for fighting Obi-Wan, Ventress only did that in the early seasons of TCW. Obi-Wan's showings against Maul all came afterwards.



Yeah, unfortunately Qui-Gon just isn't very explored with the Force. We do have him Mind Tricking Hutts, casually using TK to pull Obi-Wan and Quinlan Vos from a river whose currents were outmatching their strength and simultaneously communicating with Obi-Wan via TP, and possessing a "perfect mastery of the Force". As well as the RotS novel claiming that he was a legendary Jedi Master; the context of the quote suggests that Qui-Gon's legendariness is similar to Dooku's — which the novel had earlier defined as being one of the most powerful and respected Jedi in the Order's 25,000 year history. So the implication is that Qui-Gon is also one of the most powerful Jedi in the Order's history.

Not enough to put him on par with Ventress, but pretty good all the same.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Ventress has only fought them in the early stages of TCW - their strength feats up to then aren't better than going head-to-head with Maul; not even as good, actually.

The point about Savage is fair.



That was very brief. Qui-Gon drove back Maul for a substantially longer period of time on Naboo, and was able to do it consistently against Maul on Tatooine as opposed to Ventress only being able to do it once.

For the record, even AotC Obi-Wan managed this briefly and yet Dooku was still left expecting more from Qui-Gon's legacy.



With a form that specifically countered his. And after studying him. Given Qui-Gon's own superiority to Kit, this isn't something out of Qui-Gon's paygrade in the slightest.



Is there a specific quote for Obi-Wan approaching Qui-Gon in skill?

And no, Qui-Gon was a match for Maul on Tatooine until he started tiring.



A bit of an understatement here. Qui-Gon doesn't just have an "in-depth knowledge" of Makashi; he's mastered the form, and more importantly, has sparred with Dooku thousands of times - an amount sufficient to give Dooku encyclopedic knowledge on Ataru and its weaknesses. One can surmise that the same would be true for Qui-Gon and Makashi.

By contrast, Ventress is no doubt familiar with Ataru but certainly doesn't have anything approaching Qui-Gon's handle on Makashi. She will probably recognise some of Qui-Gon's techniques through her experiences with Obi-Wan, but that won't be the same as Qui-Gon knowing all of her moves. After all, Ventress is established by sources as using Dooku's specific fighting style (just an imperfect version of it), and Qui-Gon, having sparred thousands of times with Dooku, would literally know every move she makes and how to counter it.

As for fighting Obi-Wan, Ventress only did that in the early seasons of TCW. Obi-Wan's showings against Maul all came afterwards.
1. Fair point, especially given how those versions of the dream team were getting wrecked by oppress and falining to deal with season 3 ahsoka.

Though wasn't there her duel vs anakin where she gave him a scar(off course that part of the fight was an abush)? Also for what its worth she was able to land multiple hits with metal instruments when facing anakin in season 5 despite being ragdolled right after.

Off course ventress was also pre prime i those fights vs the duo. Off course there was her fight in dd vs grevious(though that may have been on a darkside nexus iirc)

2. fair points.

3. Forgot about the fisto being a tier 7

4. Basing this on qui-gon being uncertain about his ability to beat pre-tpm kenobi in a sparring session which escalated into a serious fight with raised stakes(though he wins eventually)

Qui gon started getting driven back in about 20 seconds, Him specifically being able to match him in skill briefly really doesn't change he;s signifcantly inferior overall. And on naboo he drove maul back after getting several seconds to fully recharge his stamina.

5.
Fair points. Though ventress making use of jarkai makes her style distinctly seperate from dooku's

Off course qui gon's is seperate from kenobi's and is far less acrobatic.
6.
Fair

Yea there's actually a solid case for qui gon winning as a duelist, off course the likely force gap should give ventress the edge

As for tpm maul, yea, he should be better. His accolades certainly beat Ti's. Unforutantely ventress doesn't get scaling from later versions of tcw kenobi/anakin unlike say grevious.
Off course theres her performance vs grevious but those were with amps and on even ground their showings vs kenobi and dooku's assessmet has grevious who does get scaling from later versions of kenobi as superior.

Nova's a genius :0

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
1. Fair point, especially given how those versions of the dream team were getting wrecked by oppress and falining to deal with season 3 ahsoka.

Though wasn't there her duel vs anakin where she gave him a scar(off course that part of the fight was an abush)? Also for what its worth she was able to land multiple hits with metal instruments when facing anakin in season 5 despite being ragdolled right after.

She landed one hit by getting the higher ground and then kicking him as soon as he jumped up, followed by a punch. That was it. The rest of the fight was her running away. When Anakin caught up to her, she was crushed.

EDIT: Never mind, she connected a blow with one of her metal weapons. Superficial all the same, though.



That's fair.



Where's this? Qui-Gon is pretty confident of his superiority in the TPM novel despite Obi-Wan being faster, and even by AotC Obi-Wan hasn't reached Qui-Gon's level yet. Presumably, Qui-Gon's an 8, whereas Obi-Wan's still a 7 in AotC.



Not really. The latest rendition of that fight in Legends had it from Maul's perspective, and Maul notes that he only started getting an edge when Qui-Gon's stamina started flagging. Even the TPM novelization, which is very generous towards Maul, has Qui-Gon and Maul driving each other back and forth after the initial stage where Maul has the clear advantage.



Actually, I'm talking about the part before he gets rest. Here: https://youtu.be/yHqdESArkqU?t=84

That's 1:24 - 1:55. I know there's synctime, but it's 31 seconds of Qui-Gon driving Maul back.

And both Qui-Gon and Maul got time to rest during the break. Except Maul didn't need it - he stayed fresh throughout the fight. Whereas Qui-Gon tired and was nearing exhaustion by the time of the break. So the fact that he managed to keep applying pressure on Maul and drive him back is an incredibly good feat on his part.



Not that distinct. Luminara Unduli was able to recognise that style even with her vision clouded. IIRC, there's various others who recognise it as Dooku's style; that's good enough for Qui-Gon to captitalise on it. Whereas Obi-Wan primarily uses Soresu and only uses Ataru sparingly against Ventress, so she would only be able to read so much of Qui-Gon's Ataru even if it was identical to Obi-Wan's.

Originally posted by SunRazer
She landed one hit by getting the higher ground and then kicking him as soon as he jumped up, followed by a punch. That was it. The rest of the fight was her running away. When Anakin caught up to her, she was crushed.

EDIT: Never mind, she connected a blow with one of her metal weapons. Superficial all the same, though.



That's fair.



Where's this? Qui-Gon is pretty confident of his superiority in the TPM novel despite Obi-Wan being faster, and even by AotC Obi-Wan hasn't reached Qui-Gon's level yet. Presumably, Qui-Gon's an 8, whereas Obi-Wan's still a 7 in AotC.



Not really. The latest rendition of that fight in Legends had it from Maul's perspective, and Maul notes that he only started getting an edge when Qui-Gon's stamina started flagging. Even the TPM novelization, which is very generous towards Maul, has Qui-Gon and Maul driving each other back and forth after the initial stage where Maul has the clear advantage.



Actually, I'm talking about the part before he gets rest. Here: https://youtu.be/yHqdESArkqU?t=84

That's 1:24 - 1:55. I know there's synctime, but it's 31 seconds of Qui-Gon driving Maul back.

And both Qui-Gon and Maul got time to rest during the break. Except Maul didn't need it - he stayed fresh throughout the fight. Whereas Qui-Gon tired and was nearing exhaustion by the time of the break. So the fact that he managed to keep applying pressure on Maul and drive him back is an incredibly good feat on his part.



Not that distinct. Luminara Unduli was able to recognise that style even with her vision clouded. IIRC, there's various others who recognise it as Dooku's style; that's good enough for Qui-Gon to captitalise on it. Whereas Obi-Wan primarily uses Soresu and only uses Ataru sparingly against Ventress, so she would only be able to read so much of Qui-Gon's Ataru even if it was identical to Obi-Wan's.




1. Good to hear

2.

3. Emperor 339 posted it, though as stated before it was a sparring session so I'd take tpm novelization over it anyway.

4. Fair

5. Wasn't maul leading qui gon to a location of his choosing there?

6. Fair points

Yes, but once the shields activated and Qui-Gon was allowed to meditate, everything changed. Once the shields came down Jinn actually came onto Maul so hard that he was stymied and literally was not sure if he would actually survive. Not only that, but Maul is almost killed by Jinn, just barely managing to jump over the pit before getting cut down.

Jinn definitively wins. He has an in-depth knowledge of Form II, and going against Ventress' unrefined style wouldn't be too hard. I suspect his power blows would get the better of her, and his defense would be adequate enough due to his thorough understanding of Form II to stone wall any offense on her part.

Let's remember that Jinn on Tantooine was 'surging back and forth' with Maul, a master of Form VII, the most aggressive lightsaber form, which is highly impressive for a Form IV specialist.

So, like I said, Jinn definitively wins.

PS I don't believe Kenobi's Ataru *ever* got to the same level as Qui-Gon's.

Asajj is canonically Dooku's best pupil besides Grievous, IIRC.

She wins.

Myth delivering those smart, hard hitting points as always.

Could it be taken as pupil as a Sith?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Myth delivering those smart, hard hitting points as always.



Originally posted by samappo
Could it be taken as pupil as a Sith?

Mayhaps.

So then it's a point of view? Or how you want to interpret it? I highly doubt Ventress was Dooku's best all time pupil, I mean come on.

Ventress

Originally posted by MythLord
Asajj is canonically Dooku's best pupil besides Grievous, IIRC.

She wins.
this?(it does say perhaps)
Perhaps Tyranus' most powerful student was Asaji Ventress.
-- Star Wars Fact File 116

Wouldn't that also put ventress over oppress?

She seems to have improved. Thanks for the find Rocky.

DD hangouts

she also landed a kick that forced back grevious despite being injured(though it was on a nexus)

Knew that one.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
this?(it does say perhaps)
Perhaps Tyranus' most powerful student was Asaji Ventress.
-- Star Wars Fact File 116

Wouldn't that also put ventress over oppress?

Key word, *Tyranus* most powerful student, not Dooku's. Therefore Jinn does not factor into that statement. Ventress' most impressive feats are when she gets mega angry and gets massively amped by the dark side for a fraction of time. I don't think she's ever definitively beat Anakin or Obi-Wan in canon.

Not only that but Jinn is again considered one of *the* best swordsmen in the order, and matched Darth Maul as a lightsaber combatant until his flagging stamina failed him. He equalled with an opponent who was considered one of the most highly trained Sith in the orders history whilst being triple the age.

He didn't match Maul.

If we're talking about the TPM novelisation, he did?

Originally posted by samappo
Key word, *Tyranus* most powerful student, not Dooku's. Therefore Jinn does not factor into that statement. Ventress' most impressive feats are when she gets mega angry and gets massively amped by the dark side for a fraction of time. I don't think she's ever definitively beat Anakin or Obi-Wan in canon.

Not only that but Jinn is again considered one of *the* best swordsmen in the order, and matched Darth Maul as a lightsaber combatant until his flagging stamina failed him. He equalled with an opponent who was considered one of the most highly trained Sith in the orders history whilst being triple the age.
would the quote include grevious? Arguably being > grevious would certainly put ventress above qui gon

Powerful doesn't mean dueling abilities, I thought it would mean power in the force?

Originally posted by samappo
If we're talking about the TPM novelisation, he did?

''Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi's excellent use of Form IV's acrobatic maneuvers are little more than delaying tactics against the Form VII (Juyo) skills of Darth Maul.'' - Star Wars Insider #62: Fightsaber.

"Qui-Gon knew this man was trained in the fighting arts of a Jedi, a skilled and dangerous adversary. Worse, he was younger, quicker, and stronger than Qui-Gon, and he was gaining ground rapidly. The Jedi Master blocked him again and again, but could not find an opening that would provide any chance of escape.'' - The Phantom Menace.

Not so much. In the first quote Maul is also notably injured and by his own estimation "not at his best."

Originally posted by samappo
Powerful doesn't mean dueling abilities, I thought it would mean power in the force?

Personally, I believe it refers to overall combative effectiveness.

Syn u fug u dun yet?

Check in the other thread.

Sorry had to do that quickly, some of the formatting is off.

Add this to the top of the post:

Regardless, Qui-Gon had quieted his mind and brought his imposing might to bear against Maul’s agility. He had matched Maul’s furious strokes with a disciplined intensity all his own. In the midst of their no-quarter contest the Jedi had even managed to order the slave boy to flee for the safety of the waiting ship, where Maul had nearly forgotten all about him.

And that's just addressing the duel on Tantooine, and not the duel of fates.

Originally posted by samappo
Powerful doesn't mean dueling abilities, I thought it would mean power in the force?
Fair point. The quote likely doesn't apply to grevious then who dooku has already stated to be above ventress post dark desciple in yoda:dr anyway(and the fact file says perhaps ventress is the most powerful) and who has outperformed ventress vs superior versions of tcw kenobi despite a stylistic disadvantage

Though it should be noted that powerful has been used beyond just force powers. In SC, Jason fry has confirmed maul becoming more powerful also referred to him becoming more skilled. In dr, dooku considered grevious more powerful than ventress.

In Legends Ventress is definitely not better than Grievous.

TPM Qui-Gon fought equally against the combined abilities of both TPM Qui-Gon and TPM Obi-Wan.

So of course he was superior to Qui-Gon alone.

Agreed. TPM Qui-Gon = TPM Qui-Gon + TPM Obi-Wan.

Makashi>Ataru #lock

@samappo

Note: I'd just like to make a note that in many of your rebuttals you made claims that were unsupported by the preceding or following passages you posted. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt by assuming most of your claims are verified by the passage that covers their fight in the novel, but for future reference, it's common courtesy to source your claims before or after your post rather then interspersed throughout as it makes much harder to check and respond to.

]

There are about 2 or 3 other posts that say pretty much the same thing. Would you like me to post them for you?

]

I'm sorry, but Jinn being a challenge that Maul was determined to overcome does not mean he was his equal. I never doubted Jinn being able to match Maul's strength for a time but he has to draw heavily on his Force reserves to do so and obviously runs out of stamina far quicker then Maul as is noted in the passage itself.

]

Yes, it shows that Jinn is skilled at adapting to his environment. Unfortunately it doesn't tell us much about his technical skill in regards to lightsaber combat.

]

Where does Jinn say the fight is over? If you're referring to Maul, he's not saying his fight with Jinn is over, he's saying that if an opponent has a solid grasp of your fighting capabilities and the style you employ it means they have a good chance of beating you. It's why Maul changes up his method of attack, so that Jinn can't get a good grasp of how his opponent will act.

]

Yes, Maul is physically superior to Jinn.

]

Just wanted to focus on this passage for a moment since you brought it up. It's rather telling that despite his best efforts to disengage with Maul the Zabrak gave him no openings to do so. Qui Gon wasn't even trying to beat him, simply escape, something that should have been easy for Jinn to have accomplished had he possessed equal skill and equal augmentation against an opponent with an injury.

Note also, Jinn knew all he had to do was get back to the ship where he could recover his energies and rest meaning he would have no reason to be drawing on his reserves to a far greater degree then he would have during a normal fight unlike Maul who had wheathered a sandstorm and fought off pirates and mercenaries beforehand and knew that if he defeated Jinn he would need to fight off the remaining passengers on the Queen's ship.

]

An impressive feat to be sure, but again, this only applies to the style Maul employed at the beginning of the fight. Like standard Juyo forms that he through out as soon as he realized his opponent knew how to counter them.

]

Maul's injury and Jinn recklessly expending Force energy to keep up helps to explain his performance. After a short interval Jinn is running on fumes and begins to lose.

"It is because of my wound. It has slowed me down somewhat. It is almost imperceptible, but it is there. The Jedi has an advantage. I am not at my best." - The Phantom Menace.

"I feel the Jedi is beginning to tire, and triumph rises like a red mist before my eyes. I gain the advantage. I am winning. I will defeat him." - The Phantom Menace.

]

Direct quotes, supported by Maul's injury and Jinn's energy usage in their first fight would indicate that such an assessment is off. While I could agree that Jinn approaches Maul in regards to technical skill he's still unable to match him.

]

Again, you're ignoring context. The novel states he was "balanced precariously." A strong blow from any physically weaker combatant can send a physically stronger combatant over the edge if their position doesn't afford them balance.

@SunRazer

]

If Maul is matching both Qui Gon and Obi Wan simultaneously then yes, that still means his skill supersedes either of them or at least that his overall ability as a lightsaber combatant does. And if it's the latter that means he has to exceed the combined augmentation of both Jinn and TPM Kenobi. Yes, I'm aware of Maul clouding their minds. It would have taken Maul some effort to do so in the middle of combat. Obviously it was a more beneficial use of his energy then if he had diverted it to augmentation, but how much more beneficial is debatable.

]

I address this in my response to sam. Jinn has no reason to hold back in his energy usage unlike Maul meaning he is able to put more ( more then normal for him at least ) energy towards augmentation and matching or exceeding Maul's own. You might say that Jinn admitting Maul is faster, stronger, etc. would contradict this but I believe he's referring to their baseline physical capabilities since he prefaces the statement by noting that Maul is "younger."

]

It's notable enough for Maul to believe it made a difference in the fight.

Then that's simply further highlights how much exponentially worse Jinn's stamina, energy reserves are in comparison to Maul. Regardless, Jinn has no reason to hold anything back as his only worry is his need to get to the ship where he can recover his energies before having to face Maul again.

Originally posted by MythLord
Agreed. TPM Qui-Gon = TPM Qui-Gon + TPM Obi-Wan.

Lmao.

Syn have you seen the newest episode of Rick and Morty?

Holy shit dude. My favorite episode in the series tbh.

We have to watch it again together. This evening at 6.

AW YEAH WE GOTTA GET SCHWIFTY

Honestly, I wasn't even mad about the April Fools prank. We're getting Samurai Jack this Wednesday which is awesome.

Originally posted by MythLord
Agreed. TPM Qui-Gon = TPM Qui-Gon + TPM Obi-Wan.



Very funny.


I of course meant TPM Maul = TPM Qui-Gon + TPM Obi-Wan...

But you all knew what I meant.

Anyway that was the case for most the battle, but Obi-Wan clearly improved during that battle.

It was deemed a worthy replacement of his trial of skill IIRC.

Actually, two-vs-ones are literally never represented as a "combine the skills of the duo versus the singular" scenario. There's plenty of incidents where character X fights off both Y and Z simultaneously despite Y alone being an equal or near-equal to him. Dooku vs Obi-Wan/Anakin (especially in the junior novel) is a good example. Qui-Gon isn't a precise match for Maul but is pretty damn close barring his stamina deficiencies. Obi-Wan just wasn't a significant difference, especially with the unorthodoxy of Maul's saberstaff and Maul clouding their minds/blunting their use of the Force.

Jinn stomps all three.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Actually, two-vs-ones are literally never represented as a "combine the skills of the duo versus the singular" scenario. There's plenty of incidents where character X fights off both Y and Z simultaneously despite Y alone being an equal or near-equal to him. Dooku vs Obi-Wan/Anakin (especially in the junior novel) is a good example. Qui-Gon isn't a precise match for Maul but is pretty damn close barring his stamina deficiencies. Obi-Wan just wasn't a significant difference, especially with the unorthodoxy of Maul's saberstaff and Maul clouding their minds/blunting their use of the Force.

I find Dooku to be more skilled then either Obi Wan or Anakin tbh.

IIRC Kenobi is one of the best combatants in the Order by this point.

Not in the Junior novel, where Dooku and Anakin were completely even on their own until Anakin drew on the dark side. And yet the Count was able to hold both him and Obi-Wan off simultaneously.

That's nice but not exactly going to make a substantial difference. If anything, it just goes to show how good Maul is.

Being able to hold your opponents off isn't the same as matching them. Something TPM Maul was stated to have done with Jinn and Kenobi.

Depends on where you hold Maul and Jinn as combatants.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
@samappo

Note: I'd just like to make a note that in many of your rebuttals you made claims that were unsupported by the preceding or following passages you posted. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt by assuming most of your claims are verified by the passage that covers their fight in the novel, but for future reference, it's common courtesy to source your claims before or after your post rather then interspersed throughout as it makes much harder to check and respond to.

Yeah sorry I had to rush it, won't happen again in the future



Sure, why not?



If Jinn wasn't at least a match for Maul (until Jinn tired) then Maul wouldn't have trouble just cutting the Jedi Master down. Jinn matched and equalled Maul until Jinn ran out of stamina.



I'm referring to Maul. And I recall Maul thinking, if an opponent can read your moves, the battle is over. Obviously he didn't anticipate that Jinn was going to tire out quicker than Maul, and probably infers that he would be unable to actually beat Jinn if the Jedi Master could keep up for as long, since Jinn was reading his every move.



I feel like your reasoning is flawed. Jinn could not find an opening, but nor could Maul. If I use your logic in reverse, I could say that Maul attacked again and again, but couldn't find an opening, even though Jinn was trying to escape more than win the duel. In this viewpoint it makes Maul look a little worse off. If the two were equal, then if Maul wanted to kill Jinn, and the Jedi Master was more concerned about escaping, then Maul would have gained an advantage, but it's clearly stated that only when Jinn started tiring did Maul get an advantage.



Jinn had been running kilometers in the hot sun of Tantooine, I highly doubt Maul's injury or fight with mercenaries and pirates would give Jinn much of an advantage. Again, it's clearly stated in the novelisation that the fight was even and Maul only started getting an advantage when Jinn started to tire and slow down.



We can't be certain exactly how he changed his approach, but most likely he was mixing styles or something. That just gives more credit to Jinn.



In spite of the fact that Jinn was preoccupied trying to find a way out, the fight surged back and forth. He was probably quite reckless to use the force to increase his stamina to optimal levels because he had been running in the Tantooine sun from the town to the ship, plus his mind was occupied elsewhere trying to escape.



1. Let's define imperceptible: so slight, gradual, or subtle as not to be perceived.

It seems like Maul is over exaggerating a little bit, considering that Jinn not only did not expect a duel yet threw Maul off when he instantly blocked Maul's initial jump attacks, and yet had also had been running, indicates that both were not at their best. It's very wrong to definitively say Jinn had an advantage considering the context and since that statements is also Maul's point of view.

2. This is already known. Jinn loses once he tires out.

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I said it's more impressive for Maul than for Jinn.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Being able to hold your opponents off isn't the same as matching them. Something TPM Maul was stated to have done with Jinn and Kenobi.

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No problem.

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"Maul appeared able to orchestrate the fight in a no-holds-barred struggle to the death. Supple and quick, he fought with a confidence and ease that threatened to eclipse the skills of the two Jedi." - Star Wars Fact File 1.

"The battle began in the hanger. Darth Maul activated his double-ended lightsaber, a weapon he fashioned himself under my supervision. In his hands this weapon was flawless - or so I thought. He made the Jedi run. They had to use everything they knew and more to meet his skill. They went at him, two on one, and they could not defeat him." - Episode 1 Journal: Darth Maul.

''They settled into a pattern then, working as a team against their enemy, waiting for an opening. But the Sith Lord was too smart to give them one, and so the battle had gone on.'' - The Phantom Menace.

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The difference being, Jinn has no reason to scale back the amount of energy he's drawing on from his reserves since his only goal is to escape while Maul has to partition his and was injured at the time.

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I already addressed this in my last post. Maul's opening Juyo sequences were thrown out for the unorthodox when he realized Jinn was reading his moves.

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The difference being Maul was trying to find an opening in Jinn's defense which he could exploit while Jinn was simply trying to find an opening where he could escape back to the ship. The former requires that Jinn slip up in regards to lightsaber combat while the latter only requires that Qui Gon manage to gain some distance/time with which to make his escape. I'll let you decide what's the more difficult feat of the two. And no, simply because Jinn's goal is escaping does NOT mean he would be any less effective of a combatant. It makes him more effective because he only needs to focus on fighting defensively and exploiting any opportunity Maul gives him to escape. Given he was unable to accomplish this against an injured Maul despite having no reason not to draw fully on his reserves since he could recover them as soon as he was back on the ship, I'd say this puts Maul squarely ahead of Jinn in regards to skill.

The following is a good example of what I'm talking about above.

https://youtu.be/DMylmOlot4g?t=60

We see Maul sacrifice his positioning in an attempt to block off Jinn's escape by leaping over him. Maul is the only one being combatively restricted by Jinn's goal of escaping.

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And Maul had been fighting off bands of mercenaries and pirates. Your point? Also, we have a pretty good gauge of how much the injury affected Maul since we know he was at least Jinn and Kenobi's equal without it.

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That he could keep up with him at all? Yeah, sure. But it doesn't mean Jinn could read Maul past the initial opening sequence which is the point.

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Again, Jinn is not hindered by his goal of escape. He's benefiting from it because it forces Maul not only to have to focus on combating a Jinn drawing heavily on his reserves but also to plan on how to cut off potential escape attempts by Jinn.

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1. Yes. That is the textbook definition.

You cannot assume a character is exaggerating without evidence.

What do you mean Jinn wasn't expecting Maul? He saw Maul approaching on his speeder before engaging him in combat which is why he was able to warn Anakin to get down. He wasn't taken off guard.

Sorry but, Maul fighting mercenaries and pirates is just as, if not more, energy exhaustive as making a trip a 9 year old child could. When you add in Maul's injury on top of it the negative factors stacked against them aren't comparable.

The text acknowledges Jinn is tired and Maul never said anything about his opponent's state. Only how his injury is affecting his own performance.

2. I direct you to my this same section on my last response. Jinn managing to unbalance Maul when he was on the edge of a rising platform isn't indicative of anything.

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Yes, it is. Which is why I don't understand why you brought it up.