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The rules:
- Anakin Skywalker is by his RotS iteration. Specifically - after landing the Invisible Hand, in full physical health and condition.
- Darth Malgus is by his False Emperor iteration. Right before the fight with the strike team.
- Fight takes place on empty King Cross station. Starting distance - 10 meters.
- Both are in character.

Darth Malgus: I'll be representing Darth Malgus in this debate.

Anakin Skywalker: Any of you can sign up for the debate. I'm even willing to put up 2v1. If two debaters decide to team up against me, they can work on their posts together, or they can give individual responses to my arguments.


Awaiting your registrations

I'll chip in for Anakin.

Anakin willed somebody out of existence, and it was somebody who the entire Force existed only to serve, so I'm not sure what arguments there are to be made

Anakin>>>Dooku>>The Ones>>>>>>>Malgus

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I'll chip in for Anakin.

Do u want an team partner or are u going solo

This should be amusing interesting.

Originally posted by JKBart
Do u want an team partner or are u going solo

If someone wants to I can partner, or I can go solo. 😏

Anakin>Dooku>Malgus
No I won't chip in

lol @ defeating JKGOD 1v1.

Let's get Elimist+1 in this.

Nah, JK is a Polefag. I think history has had his people be double teamed enough.

http://static1.1.sqspcdn.com/static/f/709071/25040529/1402630035397/howtotrain-fish.gif

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Nah, JK is a Polefag. I think history has had his people be double teamed enough. A Polefag God is still superior to any mortal on KMC.

Oh sh!t Ellimist is going

https://media.giphy.com/media/mR3FqAStFhyiQ/giphy.gif

So I guess nobody willing to aid Ellimist

So be it

Who's writing the opener?

who am i debarting

up

lol

I'll tag team with Elm. Only our combined might can challenge Bart's mastery of the forum arts.

seems legit

Originally posted by JKBart
seems legit Damn, Bart. Good luck getting past Ant's Gillard tier wank.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I'll tag team with Elm. Only our combined might can challenge Bart's mastery of the forum arts.

As an Anakin specialist I was gonna offer although you can probably Solo to be honest.

Just get on with it.

opener is yours guys, but if u dont want to, i can go ahead

this is legit

ill crush it 2v1 with malgus

Ok, my opener:

- Lucas says Anakin > Vader
- By Kar Vastor scaling, Vader >>> Kar Vastor = Yoda
- by Plagueis novel, EoTPM Sidious >>> Plagueis > Vitiate (who is a Sith by OOU sources OK)
- Vitiate >>>>>> Malgus

so:

Anakin > Vader >>> Kar Vastor = Yoda ~ RotS Sidious > EoTPM Sidious >>> Plagueis > Vitiate >>>>>> Malgus

ABC logic: Revengeance.

get ready for a response tomorrow Neph is wrong, imma slaughter, no vengeance for anybody

anakin ragdolled the ones
malgus ragdolled a strike team

dunno, seems like a good match tbh

For pity sake Ulic>Malgus, Anakin will have a field day lol.

Tbh, Ell's opener is pretty weak, so here comes mine:

1. Gillard
2. anakin > obi > jango, jadus lost to cipher 9, and jadus is confirmed > malgus
3. modern knowledge of the forms >>> ancient knowledge

anakin stomps actually, dunno why I called it a good match

Originally posted by TheMuser
For pity sake Ulic>Malgus, Anakin will have a field day lol.

watch me

Up

Malgus is still stomping as the opposition is avoiding the wrath of Bart.

https://media1.tenor.com/images/08c127d137e22d56677a6b0deb321887/tenor.gif

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take it easy, writing rn

So, let us begin.


Yes, that is correct. But that does not have much impact on the further subject; "the chain is as strong as its weakest link" as the saying goes, and one weak link here can tear apart the entire line of thought because of the way its constructed, requiring every part of the chain to be in place. Here, though, there are few of such errors.


Here is the part where we're encountering problems already. You didn't provide the necessary quotes, but I guess I can deem it obvious what sources are you basing this on. If there are others, feel free to add them, but so far I can base my answer on my personal knowledge. This scaling consists of the quote from Mace Windu deeming Vastor somebody packing as much power as Grand Master Yoda himself, and then Nick Rostu claiming Vader was the strongest presence he ever knew; since Nick Rostu knew Vader, Windu and Vastor, it's supposedly simple.

However, the basis for both notions is extremely lacking. Windu himself is depicted as Yoda's inferior multiple times. Quotes below:



So there is clearly something off with Mace's opinion. If we have Vastor as Yoda's equal, and Mace as Yoda's inferior, Mace defeating Vastor in the end, effortlessly even, is a clear "error in the matrix". Now! You can argue that the quote is about general Force power, nowhere connected to actual combat skill in a fight. Meaning that Vastor is as powerful as Yoda in terms of Force connection, general "power output" and they're in similar league as far as Force-only fights are concerned, but "all-out" fighting would be purely different story. Sure thing, there are many Kyps Durrons that pack power beyond comprehension and are only Plo-tiers in actual combat. That's the line of reasoning that stops the contradiction we see above with "Mace > Vastor > Yoda > Mace ", and it gives Vastor the best light possible. But that's not helping this debate, since it's purely combat, and I'm about to prove that Malgus is Anakin's better in actual, direct combat, not in "Force only" scenario.

Not to mention that Mace is really, really the failible character. He himself said in the same book that "he can't hope to beat Vastor on his best day", then... actually beats him in the epilogue of the book. You can't get a more obvious message about the character being failible and his opinions being wrong. He is proven wrong in the same book about the same person that he deems Yoda's equal. That's as bad of a source as you can get. It's the equivalent of using character X's quote "I can stomp Y", and having character X beaten by Y in the same source. Except here it's the plain opposite - you have the character claiming "I can't beat him on my best day" and then proceeding to actually beat him. That's the worst source possible. It's purely comical, I dare say.

Now, Nick Rostu's opinion. Here I have only a simple thing to say - he's an untrained Force user. He didn't receive any Force training at all. I would call that claiming a random Padawan the ability to state that Kit Fisto > Plo Koon, but Jedi Padawan actually received training. No comment.

With that out of the window, your notion is defeated. Your further points can go on to prove that Plagueis > Vitiate, that Palpatine > Plagueis, and that Yoda ~ Palpatine, but they don't touch Anakin or Vader at all. You can try going for all the stuff that claims Anakin and Yoda are in the same league, I presume, and hey, I agree with that notion actually. Problem is, while Yoda and Palpatine > Vitiate as confirmed by sources, it doesn't have to mean that Vitiate is out of their league. They are better, end of story, but the gap is nowhere specific. Vitiate can be in Yoda's league, while Anakin is in Yoda's league, while I can easily argue Malgus is in Vitiate's league while the inferior one as well.

However, there are actually more holes.


We have it pretty clear that Sidious, as of end of the book, is Plagueis's superior, agreed. But we have no prove on Plagueis > Vitiate, I can only agree with Sidious > Vitiate. Now, I think I can guess that you're using the backcover of the Plagueis novel here, but since I believe it to be an insane use of material, I'll just ask you to give me your basis for that part; maybe it's something different than that quote. If not, I shall write some details on this quote being non-usable for the purpose of this debate.

I won't disagree that Palpatine > Vitiate, and that Yoda ~ Palpatine, and that Anakin is somewhere in their league. Of course, I won't disagree neither that Vitiate > Malgus. However, that does nothing to displace Malgus > Anakin at all.

Darth Malgus himself is just a better combatant than Anakin. His feats are better, and he scales up enormously above every Jedi of the RotE era. If not for the quotes of Yoda and Palpatine being the clear superiors of all time, it would be easy to claim Malgus > Yoda. But as we have material surpassing Yoda from Malgus, and this quote, the only logical outcome is that Yoda is indeed better, but just the smallest notch possible, since Malgus other showings and scaling superseeds Yoda.

Bart wrecking house

Originally posted by Azronger
an bart an hero an bart an hero an bart an hero an bart an hero an bart an hero an bart an hero an bart an hero an bart an hero an bart an hero an bart an hero an bart an hero an bart an hero an bart an hero an bart an hero an bart an hero an bart an hero an bart an hero an bart an hero an bart an hero an bart an hero an bart an hero an bart an hero an bart an hero an bart an hero an bart an hero an bart an hero an bart an hero an bart an hero an bart an hero an bart an hero an bart an hero an bart an hero an bart an hero an bart an hero an bart an hero an bart an hero an bart an hero an bart an hero an bart an hero an bart an hero an bart an hero an bart an hero an bart an hero an bart an hero an bart an hero an bart an hero an bart an hero an bart an hero an bart an hero an bart an hero an bart an hero an bart an hero an bart an hero an bart an hero an bart an hero an bart an hero an bart an hero an bart an hero an bart an hero an bart an hero an bart an hero an bart an hero an bart 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whatthe****

We all need to combine our skills to stand a chance vs Bart and Malgus

Ell should just concede or this is going to get even more embarassing to him.

Originally posted by JKBart
Here is the part where we're encountering problems already. You didn't provide the necessary quotes, but I guess I can deem it obvious what sources are you basing this on. If there are others, feel free to add them, but so far I can base my answer on my personal knowledge. This scaling consists of the quote from Mace Windu deeming Vastor somebody packing as much power as Grand Master Yoda himself, and then Nick Rostu claiming Vader was the strongest presence he ever knew; since Nick Rostu knew Vader, Windu and Vastor, it's supposedly simple.

However, the basis for both notions is extremely lacking. Windu himself is depicted as Yoda's inferior multiple times. Quotes below:



So there is clearly something off with Mace's opinion. If we have Vastor as Yoda's equal, and Mace as Yoda's inferior, Mace defeating Vastor in the end, effortlessly even, is a clear "error in the matrix". Now! You can argue that the quote is about general Force power, nowhere connected to actual combat skill in a fight. Meaning that Vastor is as powerful as Yoda in terms of Force connection, general "power output" and they're in similar league as far as Force-only fights are concerned, but "all-out" fighting would be purely different story. Sure thing, there are many Kyps Durrons that pack power beyond comprehension and are only Plo-tiers in actual combat. That's the line of reasoning that stops the contradiction we see above with "Mace > Vastor > Yoda > Mace ", and it gives Vastor the best light possible. But that's not helping this debate, since it's purely combat, and I'm about to prove that Malgus is Anakin's better in actual, direct combat, not in "Force only" scenario.

Not to mention that Mace is really, really the failible character. He himself said in the same book that "he can't hope to beat Vastor on his best day", then... actually beats him in the epilogue of the book. You can't get a more obvious message about the character being failible and his opinions being wrong. He is proven wrong in the same book about the same person that he deems Yoda's equal. That's as bad of a source as you can get. It's the equivalent of using character X's quote "I can stomp Y", and having character X beaten by Y in the same source. Except here it's the plain opposite - you have the character claiming "I can't beat him on my best day" and then proceeding to actually beat him. That's the worst source possible. It's purely comical, I dare say.

Now, Nick Rostu's opinion. Here I have only a simple thing to say - he's an untrained Force user. He didn't receive any Force training at all. I would call that claiming a random Padawan the ability to state that Kit Fisto > Plo Koon, but Jedi Padawan actually received training. No comment.
https://media3.giphy.com/media/DHvWIBOhwQi64/giphy.gif

lmfao @ getting a serious response

Alright, I guess I'll actually do this haha

BTW further reinforcement of what I knew, that Bart is a really high tier debater when he's "serious" lmfao

Only Zenwolf can defeat the evil of Bart.

Originally posted by JKBart
Yes, that is correct. But that does not have much impact on the further subject; "the chain is as strong as its weakest link" as the saying goes, and one weak link here can tear apart the entire line of thought because of the way its constructed, requiring every part of the chain to be in place. Here, though, there are few of such errors.


Here is the part where we're encountering problems already. You didn't provide the necessary quotes, but I guess I can deem it obvious what sources are you basing this on. If there are others, feel free to add them, but so far I can base my answer on my personal knowledge. This scaling consists of the quote from Mace Windu deeming Vastor somebody packing as much power as Grand Master Yoda himself, and then Nick Rostu claiming Vader was the strongest presence he ever knew; since Nick Rostu knew Vader, Windu and Vastor, it's supposedly simple.

However, the basis for both notions is extremely lacking. Windu himself is depicted as Yoda's inferior multiple times. Quotes below:



So there is clearly something off with Mace's opinion. If we have Vastor as Yoda's equal, and Mace as Yoda's inferior, Mace defeating Vastor in the end, effortlessly even, is a clear "error in the matrix". Now! You can argue that the quote is about general Force power, nowhere connected to actual combat skill in a fight. Meaning that Vastor is as powerful as Yoda in terms of Force connection, general "power output" and they're in similar league as far as Force-only fights are concerned, but "all-out" fighting would be purely different story. Sure thing, there are many Kyps Durrons that pack power beyond comprehension and are only Plo-tiers in actual combat. That's the line of reasoning that stops the contradiction we see above with "Mace > Vastor > Yoda > Mace ", and it gives Vastor the best light possible. But that's not helping this debate, since it's purely combat, and I'm about to prove that Malgus is Anakin's better in actual, direct combat, not in "Force only" scenario.

Not to mention that Mace is really, really the failible character. He himself said in the same book that "he can't hope to beat Vastor on his best day", then... actually beats him in the epilogue of the book. You can't get a more obvious message about the character being failible and his opinions being wrong. He is proven wrong in the same book about the same person that he deems Yoda's equal. That's as bad of a source as you can get. It's the equivalent of using character X's quote "I can stomp Y", and having character X beaten by Y in the same source. Except here it's the plain opposite - you have the character claiming "I can't beat him on my best day" and then proceeding to actually beat him. That's the worst source possible. It's purely comical, I dare say.

Now, Nick Rostu's opinion. Here I have only a simple thing to say - he's an untrained Force user. He didn't receive any Force training at all. I would call that claiming a random Padawan the ability to state that Kit Fisto > Plo Koon, but Jedi Padawan actually received training. No comment.

With that out of the window, your notion is defeated. Your further points can go on to prove that Plagueis > Vitiate, that Palpatine > Plagueis, and that Yoda ~ Palpatine, but they don't touch Anakin or Vader at all. You can try going for all the stuff that claims Anakin and Yoda are in the same league, I presume, and hey, I agree with that notion actually. Problem is, while Yoda and Palpatine > Vitiate as confirmed by sources, it doesn't have to mean that Vitiate is out of their league. They are better, end of story, but the gap is nowhere specific. Vitiate can be in Yoda's league, while Anakin is in Yoda's league, while I can easily argue Malgus is in Vitiate's league while the inferior one as well.

However, there are actually more holes.


We have it pretty clear that Sidious, as of end of the book, is Plagueis's superior, agreed. But we have no prove on Plagueis > Vitiate, I can only agree with Sidious > Vitiate. Now, I think I can guess that you're using the backcover of the Plagueis novel here, but since I believe it to be an insane use of material, I'll just ask you to give me your basis for that part; maybe it's something different than that quote. If not, I shall write some details on this quote being non-usable for the purpose of this debate.

I won't disagree that Palpatine > Vitiate, and that Yoda ~ Palpatine, and that Anakin is somewhere in their league. Of course, I won't disagree neither that Vitiate > Malgus. However, that does nothing to displace Malgus > Anakin at all.

Darth Malgus himself is just a better combatant than Anakin. His feats are better, and he scales up enormously above every Jedi of the RotE era. If not for the quotes of Yoda and Palpatine being the clear superiors of all time, it would be easy to claim Malgus > Yoda. But as we have material surpassing Yoda from Malgus, and this quote, the only logical outcome is that Yoda is indeed better, but just the smallest notch possible, since Malgus other showings and scaling superseeds Yoda.


https://media0.giphy.com/media/3oKIPzLXQYb2Bn5PLG/giphy.gif

I had underestimated you, Grand Inquisitor Bart. I thought the years of Bane trolling and straw-TORism had made you weak, but it has only made you stronger.

I shall now abandon my facetious Kar Vastor scaling to employ more...destructive means.

Anakin is frequently placed on Yoda and Palpatine's tier.

*grabs Nova's respect thread*

RotS novelization:



Notice the elaboration on combat-applicable attributes.

Nick Gillard in The Making of Revenge of the Sith:



Notice the direct mapping of "most powerful" onto combat ability.

RotS novelization:



Note that the part about "getting stronger" discredits potential rebuttals of power meaning potential.

RotS novelization:



Palpatine in the RotS novelization:



"Potentially" here indicates actualized power given that there would be 0 doubt that Anakin > Sidious in potential.

Anakin is a tier 9 duelist per https://youtu.be/Z2-iZNQrFBA?t=908 putting him in the same tier as Yoda:



From Labyrinth of Evil:



+ way more sources than I want to post.

So observe that:

1. Anakin's placement is repeated multiple times
2. These accolades are frequently in the context of combat ability

You could then say that some of these quotes come in conflict with sources saying that Yoda is the most powerful Jedi to his time or Palpatine the most powerful Sith, but the solution is pretty clear: the mixture of sources, many in the context of combative ability, suggests that Anakin is comparable to them to at least some degree.

Likewise, you could complain that Anakin has moments where he doesn't seem to be as powerful as Yoda or Sidious, but the answers to that are clear too:

1. Anakin grows vastly in power between TCW and RotS

2. Anakin frequently fears releasing his true power - but he's not going to hold back against a Dark Lord of the Sith. He underperforms initially against Dooku because of the emotional conflict (e.g. he's pissed at Dooku but afraid of letting loose, so he consciously holds back) ala Mustafar, but Malgus here represents the goldilocks zone of being a Sith Lord that Anakin doesn't have emotional baggage against.

(cont below)

Stop wasting ur time.

Originally posted by Azronger
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I have defeated the Bart

Shit response Ell.

nice, reply incoming today/tomorrow

up

Elimnist's avi keeps making me think he's urs

Nice collection of Anakin praise right there

Anakin never stood up to his accolades and claims.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Elimnist's avi keeps making me think he's urs #stopEllimist

Anakin wins

bump

It was a good fight, but I'm pretty sure Ellimist wins this.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Anakin willed somebody out of existence, and it was somebody who the entire Force existed only to serve, so I'm not sure what arguments there are to be made

Anakin>>>Dooku>>The Ones>>>>>>>Malgus

I thought I was the only one who trolls around. Turns out I was wrong.

i pity you

Anakin destroys

Originally posted by carthage
Anakin destroys
we had a good run my friend, i hope you are doing well in life

Bart takes the L here tbh