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1. Force
2. Sabers
3. All-out

Legends

Windu. Canon only.

This is Legends, per the OP, and your constant insistence on changing thread stipulations on your whim is getting irritating.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
This is Legends, per the OP, and your constant insistence on changing thread stipulations on your whim is getting irritating. Well I think you'll be ok with my canon opinion. I've heard others are irritated with your constant thread making but people manage to carry on.

On topic: Either way.

I'd give every round to Windu 7/10.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Well I think you'll be ok with my canon opinion. I've heard others are irritated with your constant thread making but people manage to carry on.

There's a difference between making your own threads that people don't need to click on and spamming/trolling others' with your hilariously uninformed opinions.

Skywalker.

The potential advantage Mace has here, aside from not being vulnerable to Anakin's djem so like Dooku was, is that his vaapad would make Anakin tapping into that power dangerous.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
The potential advantage Mace has here, aside from not being vulnerable to Anakin's djem so like Dooku was, is that his vaapad would make Anakin tapping into that power dangerous.

Super conducting loop + not using Makashi + Shatterpoint = win for Mace.

Originally posted by Petrus
Super conducting loop + not using Makashi + Shatterpoint = win for Mace.

Maybe. Light side Anakin is still implied to be Dooku's superior.

He is, but not by much. Those advantages Windu has are enough imo to put him above Anakin for the majority.

It's suggested in Dark Rendevous that Windu and Dooku are even matches on neutral ground.

Anakin stacks up pretty well against Dooku tbh, but not too well comparatively to Windu

If it's a matter of strength, Windu would have that over Dooku too, and yet they're considered even matches.

Dooku would never perform as well as Windu did against Sidious. Windu's advantages are for real.

Originally posted by Petrus
Dooku would never perform as well as Windu did against Sidious. Windu's advantages are for real.

Yeah but Windu doesn't have the reserves of Darth Sidious to draw upon.

But he still has Shatterpoint and the super conductive loop to use against Anakin, other than the fact that he'll be using Vaapad and not Makashi.

Pretty sure the loop would only matter if Anakin used the dark side. The shatterpoint would also factor into a Windu vs. Dooku matchup which is allegedly even, but what would Anakin's shatterpoint be anyway?

1. Anakin
2. Mace
3. Close, but Anakin takes a slight majority.

I dunno, but that's the whole point of having the ability; he'll find a weak spot. Either way, he won't be using Makashi. I just think Windu's abilities stack up well against Anakin.

LMAO at Windu supporters. Macer dies.

Originally posted by MythLord
LMAO at Windu supporters. Macer dies. Windu is better than Anakin. Deal with it.

Legends I'd go with Skywalker.

Don't you think Dooku can beat Windu? If so, I have no clue how you come to the conclusion that Windu can defeat Anakin...

Anakin beat Dooku because of a form advantage and because Sidious was stroking his rage. As of DD standard Anakin with a form advantage is Dooku's equal. Standard Anakin could probably defeat Dooku with a form advantage but it'd be awfully close.

Form advantage? Windu's Vaapad loop would be a significantly bigger "form advantage" that Anakin's Djem So. And I don't remember Palpating goading Anakin in the duel.

Edit: I'd also like to know where it is stated Makashi is weak to Djem So.

Only if Mace is capable of enacting it which against Sora Bulq, Asajj Ventress, Depa Bilaba, Kar Vastor and Dooku himself he was unable to. The only time Vaapad worked "as intended" was when Mace was drawing on his own inner darkness which was fueled by his grief at the thing he loved most in the Galaxy being a lie as it was under the control of the Sith Lord who started the Clone Wars and when he was facing the most powerful darksider in history. In any other circumstances I personally don't believe he's capable of enacting a loop.

Anakin wins the Force round decisively, even despite inferior mastery over his far superior power.

Mace wins sabers in a great fight, and subsequently all out.

The "form advantage" principally refers to the fact Dooku lacks the raw physical strength to handle Skywalker's blows.

As Sasukedc pointed out, Dooku didn't have trouble handling the likes of Windu, Grievous, or Opress, all of which are monsters.

Skywalker is just insane.

That's not to mention Anakin's sheer raw power, speed, and skill.

Originally posted by ares834
I'd also like to know where it is stated Makashi is weak to Djem So.

"His own elegant Makashi simply did not generate the kinetic power to meet Djem So head-to-head." - Revenge of the Sith.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The "form advantage" principally refers to the fact Dooku lacks the raw physical strength to handle Skywalker's blows.

As Sasukedc pointed out, Dooku didn't have troubled handling the likes of Windu, Grievous, or Opress, all of which are monsters.

Skywalker is just insane.

That's not to mention Anakin's sheer raw power, speed, and skill.

The quote I'm referring to focuses on the form to form dynamic. While Skywalker no doubt possesses the physical strength to make the Djem So style he wields a true threat to Dooku there's also the fact that hit helps to enhance his own already inherent advantages.

Mmkay, its time to stop this, a few years ago, people referred to the Anakin who fought Dooku as Zonakin, and implied that he was amped in some way to defeat Dooku like that, as Dooku is in the Top 5 duelists in all the EU, whereas everyone had Anakin... somewhere below Dooku.

Zonakin is still a thing to me, isn't it some coincidence that Anakin starts owning after Obi-Wan gets knocked out?

Wasn't Dooku trying not to kill him?

The form to form dynamic in the sense Skywalker's form revolves around brutality and Dooku's finesse, hence why it specifically states "kinetic power" and not skill.

Originally posted by Syndicate
"His own elegant Makashi simply did not generate the kinetic power to meet Djem So head-to-head." - Revenge of the Sith.


That doesn't say Makashi was weak to Djem So.

You've also missed out a key part of that line.

Edit- And in fact the only time "weakness" was mentioned was in fact Djem So's lack of mobility.

What I believe is, no one should change their opinion if no new info is added.

If you defended Revan against a character a year ago, defend him against that character still, its not logical for you to up and change opinions for no reason.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
That doesn't say Makashi was weak to Djem So.

You've also missed out a key part of that line.

@Ares: There's no quote saying he doesn't employ it and there's no source saying he does in any of those fights. It just seems plain to me he wasn't given his performance against each of them. Against Bulq a loop should have provided him with an easy win given the weequay's animal ferocity and savage fury.

I provided the quote for Makashi and Djem So above.

"That doesn’t suggest form advantage. No form is meant to go head-to-head with Djem So. That’s sorta the whole point of the form, it’s users use strong brute force attacks to batter away at people."

I'd imagine a user employing Juyo or Ataru against a Djem So practitioner of equal skill would fair equally well in an offensive. The quote itself makes not that Makashi specifically fairs badly against Makashi.

Originally posted by Syndicate
@Ares: There's no quote saying he doesn't employ it and there's no source saying he does in any of those fights. It just seems plain to me he wasn't given his performance against each of them. Against Bulq a loop should have provided him with an easy win given the weequay's animal ferocity and savage fury.

I provided the quote for Makashi and Djem So above.
It's almost like Windu doesn't risk throwing himself into darkness against opponents he knows he can beat anyway.

It's almost like when Windu fights Palpatine, there's a major difference between the opponent he's currently facing and the one's he faced prior.

Oh right, it's f***ing Palpatine.

And now we have Windu put head-to-head against the Chosen One himself. Hm, I wonder if he's going to fight with the same mindset as he did against Bulq.

Given standard Anakin doesn't have any feats that are vastly superior to Mace's prior opponents I don't see why he would.

Great point.

@Ares: If Mace is superior to Bulq and Bulq's own power is added to his I think the outcome should have been pretty clear.

It suggest that he was able to enact the loop because of the desperation of his situation and because his own emotions were in turmoil causing his own inner darkness to grow.

No what doesn't? It makes no mention of other forms having a weakness to Djem So. Only Makashi. Understanding the weaknesses of other forms and your form being actively weak against another are not the same thing.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66

Great point.

Not at all.

^ Correct in fact in that whole passage the word "weakness" is only used to describe Djem So's lack of mobility.

It mentions that Makashi has trouble defending against the kinetic force that the form Djem So generates. While many characters are physically strong it doesn't mean they can fully take advantage of this without a form that plays to their inherent advantages. We see this when Anakin and Obi Wan are employing other forms against Dooku before they make the switch to Djem So and Soresu and most importantly we see Anakin growing frustrated with his inability to press Dooku when he's not using Djem So.

By emphasizing how Palpatine being the Sith Lord shattered Mace's greatest love and the fact that he was fighting the most powerful Sith Lord in galactic history.

Except it does...

Originally posted by Darth Thor
^ Correct in fact in that whole passage the word "weakness" is only used to describe Djem So's lack of mobility.

Which isn't about one form having an advantage over another but a general weakness of the form itself. Like Juyo practitioners having trouble against multiple opponents.

And some are going to struggle more then others.

Granted but the fact of the matter is that for all his strength he wasn't capable of pressuring Dooku in any way using a form that didn't play to his advantages.

To me, yes. He's never been in this heightened of an emotional state and he's never fought an opponent this powerful and most importantly he's never been shown to demonstrate this ability outside of his fight with Sidious.

Originally posted by Syndicate
To me, yes. He's never been in this heightened of an emotional state and he's never fought an opponent this powerful and most importantly he's never been shown to demonstrate this ability outside of his fight with Sidious.

Too your knowledge. And the novel attributes the loop to him no longer fearing the dark due to the events in Shatterpoint not because he was desperate or fighting against Palpatine.

Yes, too all of our knowledge as it's never specified within the lore. It says that hearing Sidious was the Sith Lord shattered his very being or something along those lines. One can assume that with greater inner darkness to draw on and a greater amount of darkness to draw on from your opponent it's going to make it more likely for Mace to successfully employ the superconducting loop.

One can assume. But one wouldn't have proof or evidence.

Just like you don't have proof or evidence that he could or did enact it outside of his fight with Sidious.

Retarded lowballing. Why would Vaapad's very functionality change because Mace was amped?

Originally posted by Syndicate
Which isn't about one form having an advantage over another but a general weakness of the form itself. Like Juyo practitioners having trouble against multiple opponents.


That's great, but it was specifically noted as a "weakness" Dooku could take advantage of. Where's Makashi was never noted as having a "weakness" that Skywalker could take advantage of.

As a form you mean? I wouldn't expect it would be especially good against Djem So.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
That's great, but it was specifically noted as a "weakness" Dooku could take advantage of. Where's Makashi was never noted as having a "weakness" that Skywalker could take advantage of.

All forms and fighting styles have weaknesses. Anakin's just not a knowledgeable enough lightsaber combat to know those weaknesses and subsequently take advantage of them.

Originally posted by Syndicate
All forms and fighting styles have weaknesses. Anakin's just not a knowledgeable enough lightsaber combat to know those weaknesses and subsequently take advantage of them.


Cool so there was no form weakness of Djem So mentioned that came into play in that fight.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Anakin's just not a knowledgeable enough lightsaber combat to know those weaknesses and subsequently take advantage of them.

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/910/643/e58.jpg

Originally posted by Syndicate
All forms and fighting styles have weaknesses. Anakin's just not a knowledgeable enough lightsaber combat to know those weaknesses and subsequently take advantage of them.



trolling?

Right after exploiting Djem So's weakness Dooku attempts the same against Obi Wan who he believes to be an Ataru practioner.

"Kenobi's Master had been Qui-Gon Jinn, Dooku's own Padawan; Dooku had fenced Qui-Gon thousands of times, and he knew every weakness of the Ataro form, with its ridiculous acrobatics." - Revenge of the Sith.

"He drove a series of flashing thrusts toward Kenobi's legs to draw the Jedi Master into a flipping overhead leap so that Dooku could burn through his spine from kidneys to shoulder blades." - Revenge of the Sith.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Cool so there was no form weakness of Djem So mentioned that came into play in that fight.

There is.

Originally posted by The Ellimist


trolling?

Nope.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/910/643/e58.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-w2thLUUwRFg/UCS72zDMdUI/AAAAAAAAEHQ/Y98FOSjlfj4/s640/jimmies-have-been-rustled-it-would-appear.jpg

Originally posted by Syndicate
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-w2thLUUwRFg/UCS72zDMdUI/AAAAAAAAEHQ/Y98FOSjlfj4/s640/jimmies-have-been-rustled-it-would-appear.jpg

Pure cancer tends to do that.

lawl, Dooku thinks Anakin is the best djem so practitioner he's ever seen, he knew jar'kai as a padawan, within weeks of getting into his suit he had created his own custom form incorporating elements from several different forms, but he doesn't understand enough about dueling to exploit match-ups?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
lawl, Dooku thinks Anakin is the best djem so practitioner he's ever seen, he knew jar'kai as a padawan, within weeks of getting into his suit he had created his own custom form incorporating elements from several different forms, but he doesn't understand enough about dueling to exploit match-ups?

Apparently not. Or perhaps Makashi's weakness is simply that it is weak against strength based forms. Take your pick.

Alright boyos, I'm off. Have fun.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Retarded lowballing. Why would Vaapad's very functionality change because Mace was amped?

Yeah, it's ridiculous.

I find your assumption that Mace can enter this state at will when he has never shown to do so at any point except in one extremely circumstantial fight to be a bit ridiculous personally but that's alright. Opinion are like asses. We all have one and sometimes they stink ( some worse then others ).

Anakin in a close fight. Figure it'd go down something like it did in the RotS video game.

Originally posted by Syndicate
There is.


What weakness? Wait let me guess, Makashi's lack of kinetic energy which was never stated to be a weakness unlike Djem So's lack of mobility right?

Originally posted by Darth Thor
What weakness? Wait let me guess, Makashi's lack of kinetic energy which was never stated to be a weakness unlike Djem So's lack of mobility right?

It's certainly a weakness against a form based around powerful kinetic strikes like Djem So.

Originally posted by Syndicate
I find your assumption that Mace can enter this state at will when he has never shown to do so at any point except in one extremely circumstantial fight to be a bit ridiculous personally but that's alright.

If you are talking about the superconducting loop, there's a difference between not shown and not explicitly stated. Most of Mace's fights were either short and inconclusive or before Shatterpoint.

Mace

Mace Wins more times than not, but Anakin definitely has a chance.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
If you are talking about the superconducting loop, there's a difference between not shown and not explicitly stated. Most of Mace's fights were either short and inconclusive or before Shatterpoint.

All of his fights with darksiders? Doubt it.

Originally posted by Syndicate
It's certainly a weakness against a form based around powerful kinetic strikes like Djem So.


Speculation tbh

Given the text says exactly that I'd have to disagree.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Given the text says exactly that I'd have to disagree.


No the text doesn't say that anywhere. Why are we going around in circles? I've already correctly pointed out to you that the word "weakness" is only used to describe Djem So's lack of mobility.

It actually does.

"His own elegant Makashi simply did not generate the kinetic power to meet Djem So head-to-head." - Revenge of the Sith.

Originally posted by Syndicate
All of his fights with darksiders? Doubt it.

Yes.

Ventress, Sora, Vastor, Depa: pre- or in Shatterpoint.
Dooku, Maul: both only lasted like 20sec tops.
Talzin: he actually did good against someone who can go toe to toe with Sidious.
Grievous: not a force user, barely even organic.

And that's all of his duels iirc.

Originally posted by Syndicate
It actually does.

"His own elegant Makashi simply did not generate the kinetic power to meet Djem So head-to-head." - Revenge of the Sith.


I'm sorry I might be going blind, but I don't see "weakness" mentioned anywhere there. Whereas it was specifically mentioned for Djem So.

You also keep missing the second part of that sentence, "especially while fending off a second attacker.."

But once it was 1 v 1, no issue was brought up for Makashi at all. Only for Dooku facing an opponent too powerful for him.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
I'm sorry I might be going blind, but I don't see "weakness" mentioned anywhere there. Whereas it was specifically mentioned for Djem So.

You also keep missing the second part of that sentence, "especially while fending off a second attacker.."

But once it was 1 v 1, no issue was brought up for Makashi at all. Only for Dooku facing an opponent too powerful for him.

Are you retarded? It says Makashi can't meet Djem So ( Djem So specifically ) head to head. Just because it doesn't say word for word "Makashi is not a great form to combat Djem So and is in fact weak against it." Doesn't mean you can't just look at the text and understand that from what was written.

My god, you are... "Especially" doesn't mean "only." It just means that with two attackers it makes its weakness against Djem So even more pronounced.

An opponent's who's strikes took more energy to block then the energy he used to take Kenobi out of the fight. Who, when using another form couldn't press Dooku in any way.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Yes.

Ventress, Sora, Vastor, Depa: pre- or in Shatterpoint.
Dooku, Maul: both only lasted like 20sec tops.
Talzin: he actually did good against someone who can go toe to toe with Sidious.
Grievous: not a force user, barely even organic.

And that's all of his duels iirc.

Mace wasn't immediately blitzed by Sidious in the first 20 seconds they fought mono e mono. If Vaapad gave him Maul and Dooku's energy he should have been able to defeat them unless they were a good deal more powerful then him.

Dt is retarded.

So it seems Quan has his first real disciple.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
So it seems Quan has his first real disciple. You are just like Dt.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
So it seems Quan has his first real disciple.

You know you're irrelevant, right? Just checking.

Originally posted by Syndicate
You know you're irrelevant, right? Just checking.

Someone's mad.

Annoyed*

Anger takes too much effort and is for the most part voluntary. Annoyance occurs naturally.

Originally posted by Syndicate
You know you're irrelevant, right? Just checking. He is one the slowest people I've ran across on my internet travels.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Mace wasn't immediately blitzed by Sidious in the first 20 seconds they fought mono e mono. If Vaapad gave him Maul and Dooku's energy he should have been able to defeat them unless they were a good deal more powerful then him.

First of all you are retarded. Secondly Sidious blitzed 3 master before Mace could react

Not to mention Vaapad is not an instant win. Mace should've gotten a significant boost off of Vaapad to beat either in 20second. It took even Yoda 40sec to make Dooku retreat.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
First of all you are retarded. Secondly Sidious blitzed 3 master before Mace could react

Not to mention Vaapad is not an instant win. Mace should've gotten a significant boost off of Vaapad to beat either in 20second. It took even Yoda 40sec to make Dooku retreat. He killed three lessees and lost to Mace. If you time the attacks of the blitz its laughably slow. They were shit and got killed. Don't make it anything more than it is.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Are you retarded? It says Makashi can't meet Djem So ( Djem So specifically ) head to head. Just because it doesn't say word for word "Makashi is not a great form to combat Djem So and is in fact weak against it." Doesn't mean you can't just look at the text and understand that from what was written.

My god, you are... "Especially" doesn't mean "only." It just means that with two attackers it makes its weakness against Djem So even more pronounced.

An opponent's who's strikes took more energy to block then the energy he used to take Kenobi out of the fight. Who, when using another form couldn't press Dooku in any way.




Ah yes good call to shout out "retarded" when you can't back up your claims and have been called out by multiple posters on it.

The Passage SPECIFICALLY calls Djem So weak to mobility. Yet it doesn't call Makashi weak to anything. Go figure.

The passage SPECIFICALLY noted meeting Djem So head to head was a particular problem WHILST FENDING OFF A SECOND ATTACKER. Once it became 1 v 1 no such clash of forms was mentioned as an issue at all.

Do you know what Makashi even is btw? It's a form of precision and movement. It doesn't need to go head to head to come out superior. It deflects and dodges and redirects with fast and precise foot movements. That's WHY it's mainly used with 1 hand, because it doesn't even try to match strength with strength. And bonus for Force users is 1 hand is free for Force attacks (or punches).

Yes Dooku's OPPONENT's strikes took too much power to Parry as specifically mentioned. No mention Anywhere in that part of the book that Djem So's form was just too difficult to deflect and dodge.

End of you've got no argument here, and the fact that the only person you have backing you up is KMC's biggest Troll and the person with like the Fakest conversion to Star Wars fandom ever, should tell you everything you need to know.

I lol'd when Syndicate called someone retarded.

I think it's silly for makashi to be weak to djem so. Like seriously, it's trumped as the uber dueling form and can't win because the opponent swings their blade too hard?

Not that djem so is just that, but the weakness negates the whole point of makashi.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Ah yes good call to shout out "retarded" when you can't back up your claims and have been called out by multiple posters on it.

The Passage SPECIFICALLY calls Djem So weak to mobility. Yet it doesn't call Makashi weak to anything. Go figure.

The passage SPECIFICALLY noted meeting Djem So head to head was a particular problem WHILST FENDING OFF A SECOND ATTACKER. Once it became 1 v 1 no such clash of forms was mentioned as an issue at all.

Do you know what Makashi even is btw? It's a form of precision and movement. It doesn't need to go head to head to come out superior. It deflects and dodges and redirects with fast and precise foot movements. That's WHY it's mainly used with 1 hand, because it doesn't even try to match strength with strength. And bonus for Force users is 1 hand is free for Force attacks (or punches).

Yes Dooku's OPPONENT's strikes took too much power to Parry as specifically mentioned. No mention Anywhere in that part of the book that Djem So's form was just too difficult to deflect and dodge.

End of you've got no argument here, and the fact that the only person you have backing you up is KMC's biggest Troll and the person with like the Fakest conversion to Star Wars fandom ever, should tell you everything you need to know. You are still visibly shaken by mere mention or my involvement. Awesome!!

Ease off the Gatorade.

It said it became a problem, especially when fending off a second attacker. Insinuating a problem is already present, but got worse.

Those "Anakin vs Mace" threads always reminds me of ROTS video game. Anakin takes this, and probably Anakin's raw power (even as a negative feelings) would be beyond Vaapad (just like Sidious' FL was)

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Ease off the Gatorade.

It said it became a problem, especially when fending off a second attacker. Insinuating a problem is already present, but got worse.


The CAPITALS are being used because syndicate seems to keep ignoring the same points over and over.

It was a problem with his current tactic, which was being used because he assumed Anakin was utilising a different form entirely.

The point of that passage was to note Dooku had to change tactics to combat the duos true combat forms. He did that and smacked Skywalker to the floor.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Ease off the Gatorade.

It said it became a problem, especially when fending off a second attacker. Insinuating a problem is already present, but got worse.

That doesn't mean, that whole Makashi is weak to Djem So. Makashi's user doesn't need to meet his enemy head to head. User of Djem So can be outmaneuvered by Makashi user's superior footwork for example.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
The CAPITALS are being used because syndicate seems to keep ignoring the same points over and over.

That's his modus operandi as a debater, tbh.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
First of all you are retarded. Secondly Sidious blitzed 3 master before Mace could react

Not to mention Vaapad is not an instant win. Mace should've gotten a significant boost off of Vaapad to beat either in 20second. It took even Yoda 40sec to make Dooku retreat.

In what way? Also Yoda taking so long to cause Dooku to withdraw doesn't show that it takes a superior opponent a good deal of time to defeat a far inferior one but rather Dooku's own parity to Yoda.

Given Vader is apparently 80% as powerful Sidious and the "parity" they've demonstrated I'd say Mace with the added power of either Maul or Dooku should be able to beat either Maul or Dooku pretty handily if he was capable of employing the superconducting loop at will. That's just me though.

Originally posted by MythLord
I lol'd when Syndicate called someone retarded.

I lol'ed after reading your post just now as I do with pretty much all your posts.

Originally posted by Syndicate
In what way? Also Yoda taking so long to cause Dooku to withdraw doesn't show that it takes a superior opponent a good deal of time to defeat a far inferior one but rather Dooku's own parity to Yoda.

https://66.media.tumblr.com/dbbda2dd3aa4171a97130c44102f66cb/tumblr_nrtxwfhdO11tq4of6o1_250.gif
http://i.imgur.com/QtFZ0PR.gif
https://m.popkey.co/9f2650/kWdpE.gif
http://img2.tvtome.com/i/u/67b703bfcfef4217c2f3caaf89af3c79.gif

>Took Yoda 40sec to make Dooku retreat
>Windu amped off of Dooku should beat him twice as fast, when amped off of Sidious he was still only Yoda level

Kill yourself.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Ah yes good call to shout out "retarded" when you can't back up your claims and have been called out by multiple posters on it.

The Passage SPECIFICALLY calls Djem So weak to mobility. Yet it doesn't call Makashi weak to anything. Go figure.

The passage SPECIFICALLY noted meeting Djem So head to head was a particular problem WHILST FENDING OFF A SECOND ATTACKER. Once it became 1 v 1 no such clash of forms was mentioned as an issue at all.

Do you know what Makashi even is btw? It's a form of precision and movement. It doesn't need to go head to head to come out superior. It deflects and dodges and redirects with fast and precise foot movements. That's WHY it's mainly used with 1 hand, because it doesn't even try to match strength with strength. And bonus for Force users is 1 hand is free for Force attacks (or punches).

Yes Dooku's OPPONENT's strikes took too much power to Parry as specifically mentioned. No mention Anywhere in that part of the book that Djem So's form was just too difficult to deflect and dodge.

End of you've got no argument here, and the fact that the only person you have backing you up is KMC's biggest Troll and the person with like the Fakest conversion to Star Wars fandom ever, should tell you everything you need to know.

Does that apply to your compatriot Zoltan as well considering he did the exact same thing just now or is he immune because he agrees with you? :P Also I called you retarded because you can't seem to understand the meaning of basic text. I mean I don't think Stover's novel is all that hard to comprehend despite it's flowery language.

Yes, one of Djem So's weakness is it's lack of mobility.

??? It says that Makashi has trouble meeting the kinetic power Djem So was capable of generating, especially so when facing 2 opponents. It never makes note that Makashi stops having trouble defending against the kind of kinetic energy Djem So is capable of generating once the second opponent is dispatched.

I'm generally aware of Makashi's function, yes. Your point being?

Given Anakin's strength isn't enough to even pressure Dooku before he begins employing Djem So it's obviously not just his superior physicals that are allowing him to do so well against the Count.

Quan is a friend of mine actually so I'd appreciate it if you'd kindly keep him out of this. Oh and to quit being retarded.

Given Yoda's dueling parity to Sidious who clowned Maul and Savage in lightsaber combat, whereas Dooku was ****ed without his offensive Force powers against Savage and Ventress... I'm inclined to say there is no dueling parity between Yoda and Dooku

The new canon fact file claims that they were almost equal, with Yoda having a slight edge.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
The CAPITALS are being used because syndicate seems to keep ignoring the same points over and over.

It was a problem with his current tactic, which was being used because he assumed Anakin was utilising a different form entirely.

The point of that passage was to note Dooku had to change tactics to combat the duos true combat forms. He did that and smacked Skywalker to the floor.

Odd, I had the same though about you.

Nowhere does it state Dooku was having a problem because he thought he was attacking an Ataru specialist. It shows he's having a problem because Makashi simply can't meet the blows of Djem So head to head.

Dooku's knowledge on lightsaber combat does help him, yes. It doesn't change the fact that he's at an inherent disadvantage.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
https://66.media.tumblr.com/dbbda2dd3aa4171a97130c44102f66cb/tumblr_nrtxwfhdO11tq4of6o1_250.gif
http://i.imgur.com/QtFZ0PR.gif
https://m.popkey.co/9f2650/kWdpE.gif
http://img2.tvtome.com/i/u/67b703bfcfef4217c2f3caaf89af3c79.gif

>Took Yoda 40sec to make Dooku retreat
>Windu amped off of Dooku should beat him twice as fast, when amped off of Sidious he was still only Yoda level

Kill yourself.

I have Dooku above Mace by a fair bit given Mace was incapable of even moving to defend his allies as they were cut down while Dooku was able to actually put up some kind of resistance against Yoda.

Originally posted by McP
Those "Anakin vs Mace" threads always reminds me of ROTS video game. Anakin takes this, and probably Anakin's raw power (even as a negative feelings) would be beyond Vaapad (just like Sidious' FL was) Windu redirected the fl.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Given Yoda's dueling parity to Sidious who clowned Maul and Savage in lightsaber combat, whereas Dooku was ****ed without his offensive Force powers against Savage and Ventress... I'm inclined to say there is no dueling parity between Yoda and Dooku

Given Dooku's own performance against Yoda and the fact that 2 inferior opponents ( Ventress and Savage ) would not be as formidable of a threat as a single superior opponent ( Dooku ) against someone like Sidious or Yoda ( as demonstrated by Maul and Savage in their fight against Sidious ) I'm inclined to disagree.

Originally posted by Syndicate
I have Dooku above Mace by a fair bit given Mace was incapable of even moving to defend his allies as they were cut down while Dooku was able to actually put up some kind of resistance against Yoda.

Nobody gives a shit where you put Dooku and Mace.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Nobody gives a shit where you put Dooku and Mace.

Apparently you do since you're claiming my statement wouldn't be supported by opinions I'd expressed prior. Dumbass.

It's not. You are talking shit.

Btw, Yoda pushed Dooku's shit in even in Y: DR, where Yoda was weakened and Dooku was amped.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Nobody gives a shit where you put Dooku and Mace. Are you always this angry when you log in ?

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
It's not. You are talking shit.

Btw, Yoda pushed Dooku's shit in even in Y: DR, where Yoda was weakened and Dooku was amped.

You mean on Vjun where 3 lightsiders; Anakin, Whie and Scout all said how they felt much stronger on the planet and demonstrate greater power then they would otherwise be capable of off planet? Lol.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Are you always this angry when you log in ?

This is him on a good day.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Given Dooku's own performance against Yoda and the fact that 2 inferior opponents ( Ventress and Savage ) would not be as formidable of a threat as a single superior opponent ( Dooku ) against someone like Sidious or Yoda ( as demonstrated by Maul and Savage in their fight against Sidious ) I'm inclined to disagree.
But I'm comparing how duelists of Yoda's level handle Maul and Savage to how duelists of Dooku's level handle Savage and Ventress... and it doesn't look pretty on the end of Dooku level duelists.

Also, Mace and Anakin are at least within the same ballpark as Dooku (as per Windu quotes and Anakin flat out matching and beating Dooku), and they couldn't even properly perceive Sidious moving.

He just really isn't on par with Yoda and Sheev in terms of lightsaber combat... or really anything combative.

Originally posted by Syndicate
This is him on a good day. I barely know who he is but he seems so damn angry and disrespectful to anyone who disagrees with him. Not good.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
But I'm comparing how duelists of Yoda's level handle Maul and Savage to how duelists of Dooku's level handle Savage and Ventress... and it doesn't look pretty on the end of Dooku level duelists.

Also, Mace and Anakin are at least within the same ballpark as Dooku (as per Windu quotes and Anakin flat out matching and beating Dooku), and they couldn't even properly perceive Sidious moving.

He just really isn't on par with Yoda and Sheev in terms of lightsaber combat... or really anything combative.

Given Dooku had like 0 expectations in regards to Savage's skill level and then Ventress gives him his memories ( memories of a lifetime of being a trained/highly skilled warrior ) I'm willing to give Dooku the benefit of the doubt in being disarmed by an unexpectedly skilled/powerful blow.

*Shrug* Perhaps Sidious was augmenting his speed to a greater degree in his fight against the B team so that he could overwhelm them quickly and not waste time expending energy in a prolonged fight against them. In regards to Anakin and Dooku it's logical that Dooku wouldn't be moving as fast as in his fight against Yoda as blocking Anakin's blows is what's taking up the majority of his force reserves. This is more a demonstration of Anakin's superior strength. There's plenty of reasons the speed disparity we see onscreen and throughout the novels could have occurred and I can't fault you for having your own interpretation.

I don't believe he's on par but I believe he can hang with them.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I barely know who he is but he seems so damn angry and disrespectful to anyone who disagrees with him. Not good.

People like that tend to die at the age of 40 because of coronaries.

Originally posted by Syndicate
People like that tend to die at the age of 40 because of coronaries. Lets not get too excited just yet.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Given Dooku had like 0 expectations in regards to Savage's skill level and then Ventress gives him his memories ( memories of a lifetime of being a trained/highly skilled warrior ) I'm willing to give Dooku the benefit of the doubt in being disarmed by an unexpectedly skilled/powerful blow.

*Shrug* Perhaps Sidious was augmenting his speed to a greater degree in his fight against the B team so that he could overwhelm them quickly and not waste time expending energy in a prolonged fight against them. In regards to Anakin and Dooku it's logical that Dooku wouldn't be moving as fast as in his fight against Yoda as blocking Anakin's blows is what's taking up the majority of his force reserves. This is more a demonstration of Anakin's superior strength. There's plenty of reasons the speed disparity we see onscreen and throughout the novels could have occurred and I can't fault you for having your own interpretation.

I don't believe he's on par but I believe he can hang with them.
Considering Dooku's duel with Yoda only lasted like 6 seconds longer than Maul's 1v1 bout with Sidious, I'm not convinced that that is enough proof that they have some sort of parity, especially considering the indication in the difference in their dueling feats that duelists of Yoda and Sidious's tier are head and shoulders above duelists of Dooku's tier.

Maul was profusely amped from rage, though. The novel sets an example of what would happen if he wasn't enraged, which was getting disarmed in three hits.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Considering Dooku's duel with Yoda only lasted like 6 seconds longer than Maul's 1v1 bout with Sidious, I'm not convinced that that is enough proof that they have some sort of parity, especially considering the indication in the difference in their dueling feats that duelists of Yoda and Sidious's tier are head and shoulders above duelists of Dooku's tier.

Given a quote outright states Sidious is toying with him I'd have to disagree.

http://static3.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/4/48954/4972641-sid+vs+maul+savage+maul+gallery.jpg

Dooku has out dueled both Sora Bulq and another Jedi simultaneously with seeming ease and Bulq was able to pressure Mace. He's also managed to casually beat duelists like Ventress and Grievous ( though to be fair he had the advantage of training them ).

Given that Yoda wasn't even wielding the Force offensively against Dooku while he has a sizeable edge in Force power, I don't see any reason why I should believe Yoda was going all-out on Dooku, especially when his peers in the Force (Sidious and Talzin) have raped Dooku in the Force every time they wield it against him. Especially since Dooku's perceptions of even Obi-Wan and AOTC Anakin's speed have baffled his perceptions to some extent, I fail to see how he can conceivably match Yoda's speed well enough to have any form of parity with him.

He did a few times (he hurled a lantern back at the Count, who waved it aside), and hurled Lightning back at the Count twice, who deflected it both times.

Also, Dooku near-blitzes Obi-Wan in the AotC junior novel. His lightsaber "seems to be everywhere", although you can argue that it was a separate narrator's perspective.

I didn't make any comment on AOTC Obi-Wan :/

Never mind, lol.

Still, Yoda does attack the Count three times (not with full effort, of course), and Tyranus still repels those attacks.

Yeah, but it's only ever retaliatory, .i.e. he hurls Dooku's shit back at him.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Given that Yoda wasn't even wielding the Force offensively against Dooku while he has a sizeable edge in Force power, I don't see any reason why I should believe Yoda was going all-out on Dooku, especially when his peers in the Force (Sidious and Talzin) have raped Dooku in the Force every time they wield it against him. Especially since Dooku's perceptions of even Obi-Wan and AOTC Anakin's speed have baffled his perceptions to some extent, I fail to see how he can conceivably match Yoda's speed well enough to have any form of parity with him.

I'd imagine that's because he realized he had a better chance of beating Dooku in lighstaber combat then a battle in the Force.

Sidious and Talzin are more powerful then Yoda and Talzin's attacks were not the standard force push but full on Sith Sorcery that would be more difficult for Dooku to counter. Also you know my stance on Sidious and Dooku. Given he matched him to the point Yoda was incapable of blitzing him or overwhelming him within seconds that's what I have to assume.

Yet this on par with Yoda as a duelist Dooku gets defeated and outsped by DD Vos? Who isn't even fast enough to not be bowled over by Anakin when he has plenty of time for at least something of a reaction?

I'm sorry but given literally every other indication of Dooku's level and Yoda's level, they are not comparable or on par, there is a pretty wide gap between them.

If Dooku really was a match for Yoda, how come he still couldn't beat him on Vjun! while Yoda was distracted? Why does his peer, Windu, stand no chance against Sidious before vaapad kicked in?

I'd say it's also possible that, in addition to holding back, AotC Yoda was rusty.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Yet this on par with Yoda as a duelist Dooku gets defeated and outsped by DD Vos? Who isn't even fast enough to not be bowled over by Anakin when he has plenty of time for at least something of a reaction?

I'm sorry but given literally every other indication of Dooku's level and Yoda's level, they are not comparable or on par, there is a pretty wide gap between them.

Outsped? Where does it say Vos beat Dooku because he was faster? It says he beat him because he was more aggressive/ferocious. What do you mean? He reacted to Anakin just fine. He just couldn't handle the force of his kinetic strikes generated by his own strength combined with Djem So.

You're free to hold that opinion if you like.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Outsped? Where does it say Vos beat Dooku because he was faster? It says he beat him because he was more aggressive/ferocious. What do you mean? He reacted to Anakin just fine. He just couldn't handle the force of his kinetic strikes generated by his own strength combined with Djem So.




Originally posted by Syndicate
You're free to hold that opinion if you like.
Makes a lot more sense than thinking they're actually on par.

Didn't Yoda regret not being more ruthless in AotC? His opinions in RotS may be totally different.

Why would one assume that Dooku had an advantage over Yoda on Vjun? Uh, because the text implies that Mace would be Dooku's equal on neutral ground, but not on Vjun.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Didn't Yoda regret not being more ruthless in AotC? His opinions in RotS may be totally different. Yoda knew what was at stake. He failed against Dooku just as he failed against Palpatine. It's only worse he didn't beat someone he's better than when he had the opportunity in aotc. Only slight pass I give him is he had to protect his friends which allowed Dooku the time he needed to flee.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Didn't Yoda regret not being more ruthless in AotC? His opinions in RotS may be totally different.
Especially since he could've... you know... ended the war on Geonosis by killing Dooku and letting Obi-Wan die as he claimed he would do in the ROTS novel, but he didn't.

Also, if Yoda and Dooku were really that closely matched on Geonosis, then Dooku not attacking Yoda while his eyes are closed, his lightsaber is deactivated, his back is turned, and his focus is on TKing the collapsing pillar makes absolutely no sense.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Yeah, but it's only ever retaliatory, .i.e. he hurls Dooku's shit back at him.

Well, obviously.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Makes a lot more sense than thinking they're actually on par.

Fair enough. I concede the point. Really need to read that sh!tty novel.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Why would one assume that Dooku had an advantage over Yoda on Vjun? Uh, because the text implies that Mace would be Dooku's equal on neutral ground, but not on Vjun.

*Shrug* It doesn't change the fact that Anakin, Whie and Scout state they feel more powerful and Whie and Scout outright demonstrate power beyond what they're normally capable of. And they're all lightsiders.