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Vitiate

Originally posted by Nephthys
Vitiate

Even when Sidious mindwiped trillions? mmm

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Even when Sidious mindwiped trillions? mmm

Yea, if he actually did that instead of simply feeding on their energies for 20 years. Vitiate takes this.

Either way.

Sidious.

Sidious's machinations on Byss and Coruscant warrant the nod, I think.

Those mindrapes are hardly comparable to Vitiate's Nathema escapades, not even including Ziost here.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Those mindrapes are hardly comparable to Vitiate's Nathema escapades, not even including Ziost here.

I'm honestly not impressed by the willful participation of the Sith Lords in the Nathema ritual. Based on what we know, the Emperor affected an exponentially greater number of people and for a greater number of time than what Valkoriate's accomplished.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'm honestly not impressed by the willful participation of the Sith Lords in the Nathema ritual. Based on what we know, the Emperor affected an exponentially greater number of people and for a greater number of time than what Valkoriate's accomplished.

Sidious did it to trillions on his own power, Valkorion did it to millions (billions?)...on a nexus...with prep...and a ritual...

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Sidious did it to trillions on his own power, Valkorion did it to millions (billions?)...on a nexus...with prep...and a ritual...

Nathema wasn't a nexus and Ziost needed no prep. Sidious did it to trillions of people over a 20 year period, doesn't get any more prep than that


Fixed for accuracy. I'm not sure how a slow and steady 20 year drain is even comparable, especially since the Byss citizens didn't all of a sudden suffer a mortality increase at a younger than usual age.

@Skillz, as we had discussed earlier, Wedge's random numerical estimate aside, Sidious would've had to have affected trillions to get ride of word of the event, and he'd have to have done it really quickly, presuming some manner of social media/long range communication exists (it does).

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Fixed for accuracy. I'm not sure how a slow and steady 20 year drain is even comparable, especially since the Byss citizens didn't all of a sudden suffer a mortality increase at a younger than usual age.

We're talking telepathy, not Force drain.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Vitiate

Originally posted by The_Tempest
We're talking telepathy, not Force drain.

What exactly did he do on byss and coruscant again?

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Those mindrapes are hardly comparable to Vitiate's Nathema escapades, not even including Ziost here.

Some Kaan level shit here.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
What exactly did he do on byss and coruscant again?

Coruscant: he used his mind-fogging powers to conceal the burial of the Super Star Destroyer Lusankya from the population.

Byss: telepathically enslaved its 19.7 billion denizens.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Coruscant: he used his mind-fogging powers to conceal the burial of the Super Star Destroyer Lusankya from the population.

Byss: telepathically enslaved its 19.7 billion denizens.

How did he "enslave" them again? For 20 years they lived out their lives just fine.

Beefy judged Sidious's feats before admitting he didn't know what they were? mmm

Anyway, Lusankya is one of the most potent feats in all the mythology.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Beefy judged Sidious's feats before admitting he didn't know what they were? mmm

Anyway, Lusankya is one of the most potent feats in all the mythology.

I needed a reminder, I know what they were. Now shush, adults are talking. I'm not sure you can take anymore humiliation from any of your posts.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
How did he "enslave" them again? For 20 years they lived out their lives just fine.

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/byss%20deep%20core%203_zpsu0gwafjh.png

^ "Byss and the Deep Core"

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/byss%20essential%20atlas_zpsorhxnbai.png

^ The Essential Atlas

Almost mindless? Lol. Sounds like you described a force drain with the possibility of some kind of TP since they were "almost" mindless.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Almost mindless? Lol. Sounds like you described a force drain with the possibility of some kind of TP since they were "almost" mindless.

Yeah, he used telepathy to enslave them and then drain to leech their life energies.

But they're almost mindless. And it also says "most" of the inhabitants. That means they retained some of their functions, like the ability to masturbate. Weak TP.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
But they're almost mindless. And it also says "most" of the inhabitants. That means they retained some of their functions, like the ability to masturbate. Weak TP.

Not sure what your point is. He "enslaved" the population, rendering them "almost mindless," and "most" of them endure in a "dream-like state."

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Not sure what your point is. He "enslaved" the population, rendering them "almost mindless," and "most" of them endure in a "dream-like state."

If you want a true mindrape, look at Valkorion and Nathema. There wasn't anything "almost mindless" about them. He controlled them all simultaneously. The only thing that's unclear is the number.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
If you want a true mindrape, look at Valkorion and Nathema. There wasn't anything "almost mindless" about them. He controlled them all simultaneously. The only thing that's unclear is the number.

According to Nyriss. The Old Republic Encyclopedia tells a different version: the Sith Lords that traveled to Medriaas/Nathema volunteered for the ritual, a notion reiterated by the SWTOR Codex.

Even then, Nyriss's descriptions are similar to what the sources describe as going on with Byss, they don't exactly exceed them.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
According to Nyriss. The Old Republic Encyclopedia tells a different version: the Sith Lords that traveled to Medriaas/Nathema volunteered for the ritual, a notion reiterated by the SWTOR Codex.

Even then, Nyriss's descriptions are similar to what the sources describe as going on with Byss, they don't exactly exceed them.

1. I think the Revan novel states that Vitiate mindraped them. One of those sources does. It's unclear what the truth is.

2. I meant Ziost.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Not sure what your point is. He "enslaved" the population, rendering them "almost mindless," and "most" of them endure in a "dream-like state."

And seriously, even if 80% of them are 70% mindless, that's more impressive than Ziost, lol.

Is Beefy even bothering to respond to the Lusankya feat?

Given that you're over exaggerating the feat, nah.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
1. I think the Revan novel states that Vitiate mindraped them. One of those sources does. It's unclear what the truth is.

Yeah, that's when Nyriss tells Scourge the legend of Vitiate's origins. The codex and SWTOR Encyclopedia say differently.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
2. I meant Ziost.

Vitiate was possessing various people on Ziost to kill and feed off the death there. The Emperor was economically leeching billions of people to fuel dark side experiments in the Imperial citadel. Possession vs. telepathy: Apples and oranges, you might say. Only in this case, the orange is a lot bigger.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Given that you're over exaggerating the feat, nah.

I think most of the forum has given up responding to Ellimist. It's more of a "shake your head and sigh" situation than anything else at this point. I'm trying to talk to Gideon, not his intellectually challenged pet.

Also, I keep forgetting that Rane Kovach indicates Ziost's strength in the dark side was an element in Vitiate's whole gambit there.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Given that you're over exaggerating the feat, nah.

Well as you never responded to, it has to be that many people for it to have worked. Coruscant is dense, people talk.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Also, I keep forgetting that Rane Kovach indicates Ziost's strength in the dark side was an element in Vitiate's whole gambit there.

You'd have to prove that gave him any kind of help though. Seeing as how it appears he's both grown in power from the Shadow of Revan fiasco and seems to have perfected his ritual, it's unlikely Ziost's dark side strength did anything. Also Kovach is stating an opinion so..

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
You'd have to prove that gave him any kind of help though. Seeing as how it appears he's both grown in power from the Shadow of Revan fiasco and seems to have perfected his ritual, it's unlikely Ziost's dark side strength did anything. Also Kovach is stating an opinion so..

He's a dark sider on a dark side nexus. Why wouldn't it give him help? Kovach's briefing the player on Ziost's developments; a report to which even Lana Beniko defers.

And unlike Nyriss's opinion on Nathema, Kovach's isn't contradicted by anything.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
He's a dark sider on a dark side nexus. Why wouldn't it give him help? Kovach's briefing the player on Ziost's developments; a report to which even Lana Beniko defers.

And unlike Nyriss's opinion on Nathema, Kovach's isn't contradicted by anything.

Is he familiar with Vitiate's rituals? I think not, so he's speculating. Vitiate didn't need a nexus on Nathema, it stands to reason he doesn't need one a thousand years later when he perfected the technique.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
I think most of the forum has given up responding to Ellimist. It's more of a "shake your head and sigh" situation than anything else at this point. I'm trying to talk to Gideon, not his intellectually challenged pet. There goes that insecurity of yours rearing its ugly head again.

Originally posted by quanchi112
There goes that insecurity of yours rearing its ugly head again.

http://www.youthdefence.ie/am_cms_media/uploaded/b/0e1683943_boohoo3.jpg

Originally posted by quanchi112
There goes that insecurity of yours rearing its ugly head again.

It's funny because Beefy thinks Skillz is on his side or something. It's not like Skillz has stated his opinion that I may be the smartest person on the forum (his words, not mine), and on Beefy...KEK.

Skillz gives me shit but for trolling, not for being a bad debater.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Is he familiar with Vitiate's rituals? I think not, so he's speculating.

There's no evidence that he's unfamiliar with Vitiate's rituals. And people who are intimately familiar with Vitiate, like Beniko, defer to his sitrep.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Vitiate didn't need a nexus on Nathema, it stands to reason he doesn't need one a thousand years later when he perfected the technique.

Vitiate also had the cooperation of thousands of Sith Lords, then. Bereft of that kind of immense power source and willing subjects, it would actually make sense that he would rely on a nexus.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
It's funny because Beefy thinks Skillz is on his side or something. It's not like Skillz has stated his opinion that I may be the smartest person on the forum (his words, not mine), and on Beefy...KEK.

The fact that you would think that further proves your incompetence. I don't think skillz is on my side, I think he thinks (like most people here), that you're dumb. The fact that you have to team up with someone so incredibly butthurt over movie opinions that he needs to parrot other people's insults, shows how sad you are

There's no evidence that he IS familiar with Vitiate's rituals. Exactly how many characters are familiar with Vitiate's rituals?


Says one source. The one one says he mind raped them, so we can't really go on that can we?

Interesting; Beefy thinks Rane is an unreliable source for not knowing enough about Vitiate's rituals, but takes over an encyclopedia the accounts of Nyriss about events that happened 1000 years ago, that explicitly left no witnesses, which she admitted she couldn't corroborate. mmm

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Interesting; Beefy thinks Rane is an unreliable source for not knowing enough about Vitiate's rituals, but takes over an encyclopedia the accounts of Nyriss about events that happened 1000 years ago, that explicitly left no witnesses, which she admitted she couldn't corroborate. mmm

That post is so hilariously stupid and inaccurate, here's a dancing banana to bring some kind of semblance of sanity back.


Ouch, looks like your reading comprehension skills (or lack thereof) didn't see me declaring that because of contradicting sources, we can't use this at all.
https://media4.giphy.com/media/TJPQBOfPGpgmQ/200_s.gif

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
There's no evidence that he IS familiar with Vitiate's rituals. Exactly how many characters are familiar with Vitiate's rituals?

...Apparently there's an entire creation myth about them, per Nyriss. And Beniko was actually possessed by Vitiate earlier in the main game. She still steps aside and defers to Kovach lol.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Says one source. The one one says he mind raped them, so we can't really go on that can we?

Says two sources, the SWTOR Encyclopedia and the Codex, both of which are also more recent than Nyriss's legend.

Beniko never gets possessed by Vitiate, lmfao.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
http://www.youthdefence.ie/am_cms_me0e1683943_boohoo3.jpg Yes, you're upset but try to cry on your own time.

What and where did this happen? Also since when does being possesed by Vitiate give you access to his powers or knowledge of his powers? Only one that seemed to be aware of those is the Godlander.


What are they exactly? And why are you opting for recent sources, when in any other debate, you hold fast to older sources that don't take into account things like the creation of other characters?



https://www.dealwithautism.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Parroting-in-Echolalia.jpg

Also, I have an upstanding opinion of just about everyone on this forum. Quan included.

As Elm said, I think in terms of knowledge of debating itself, he's beyond exceptional, but unlike Gideon, his conclusions are more often cancerous than not.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
It's funny because Beefy thinks Skillz is on his side or something. It's not like Skillz has stated his opinion that I may be the smartest person on the forum (his words, not mine), and on Beefy...KEK.

Skillz gives me shit but for trolling, not for being a bad debater. I will hound him until the end of time. He just upgraded himself to Nai status with me. Yeah, Beefy probably thinks he made a friend or something with Skillz.

Skillz is a political genius on the level of The Tempest with all his flattery tbh.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I will hound him until the end of time. He just upgraded himself to Nai status with me. Yeah, Beefy probably thinks he made a friend or something with Skillz.

Oh that's cute. The butthurt child is going to hound me until the end of time. Think you should probably stop being so transparent right about now. I'll go ahead and wait for you to repeat this exact same line of reasoning back to me

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Skillz is a political genius on the level of The Tempest with all his flattery tbh.

Temp doesn't really indulge in the whole flattery thing unless it's about me.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
As Elm said, I think in terms of knowledge of debating itself, he's beyond exceptional, but unlike Gideon, his conclusions are more often cancerous than not.

Where exactly do I differ from Gideon in my conclusions?

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Beniko never gets possessed by Vitiate, lmfao.

you sure?

Doesn't the Hero fight her at one point while she's possessed by him? mmm



It's a recurring theme with Vitiate's TP. People like Revan, HOT, Tol Braga, who have experienced his mindhaxx then develop an intimate understanding of it to the point that they're immune from subsequent attempts?



The Codex entry, "Ritual of Nathema," which says Imperial scholars celebrate the ritual of Nathema as the rare coming together of Sith for the greater good and the Encyclopedia, which says thousands of Sith flocked to Medriaas to volunteer for the Sith ritual.



Because in this case, the newer sources explicitly contradict the older one, which is simply one person's recounting of a tale she explicitly admits is unverifiable by her.

@Elm: The extremity of your conclusions. Where Gideon has Novel Vitiate > Caedus, Valkorion > Plagueis, and DE Sidious > Valkorion, you have Caedus > Novel Vitiate, Plagueis > Valkorion, and DE Sidious >>/>>> Valkorion.

Which I find to be despicable.

Dude, do you even TOR?


The only individuals that seem immune (and I use that term loosely with Vitiate) are Revan and the Godlander, who's probably Valky's offspring. NOT a good pool of candidates there for your example.


That seems like awesomely convenient Empire propaganda

Temp, it's the Hero's apprentice, Kira, who gets possessed.

I don't blame you for misremembering. Pure cancer.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
What and where did this happen? Also since when does being possesed by Vitiate give you access to his powers or knowledge of his powers? Only one that seemed to be aware of those is the Godlander.


What are they exactly? And why are you opting for recent sources, when in any other debate, you hold fast to older sources that don't take into account things like the creation of other characters?



https://www.dealwithautism.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Parroting-in-Echolalia.jpg Your insults are not very original or clever.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Temp, it's the Hero's apprentice, Kira, who gets possessed.

I don't blame you for misremembering. Pure cancer.

He doesn't TOR..

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Oh that's cute. The butthurt child is going to hound me until the end of time. Think you should probably stop being so transparent right about now. I'll go ahead and wait for you to repeat this exact same line of reasoning back to me You are the next target.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
He doesn't TOR..

Let's be honest: he's better for it.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Dude, do you even TOR?

No, I'm not gay.

But I have watched the cutscenes and I distinctly remember someone fighting a mind-controlled/possessed female on the bridge of a ship. Was that not Beniko and was that not Vitiate? mmm

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
The only individuals that seem immune (and I use that term loosely with Vitiate) are Revan and the Godlander, who's probably Valky's offspring. NOT a good pool of candidates there for your example.

And Tol Braga. And Beniko is apparently immune to Vitiate's telepathy whilst on Ziost.

Which is another reason I'm like 80% sure she's the woman who was fought while possessed/TP'd by him.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
That seems like awesomely convenient Empire propaganda

It could be. But Nyriss explicitly says that what she's telling Scourge is a myth the veracity of which she can't possibly prove. And then there's the SWTOR Encyclopedia.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
you have Caedus > Novel Vitiate,

Pretty sure you have Revan Reborn and two fodder (trainee Scourge and weakened Meetra) as possibly challenging Vitiate on a powerful dark side nexus while having just gotten back from being drugged and tortured.

Cancer



You sure Gideon doesn't have that?



Not really, I'd say it's a fair gap though.



Your rage would please Gideon most lushly.

Nah, Lana resisted via prepping for month(s) IIRC.

and KEK at Beefy still seeing that as imperial propaganda, but Nyriss's legends about what happened 1000 years ago with no witnesses as gospel over an encyclopedia.

Kira. And if you weren't gay then you wouldn't be doing 99% of the stuff you're doing in life.


Braga wasn't immune and I forgot why Beniko was immune to it, it's been awhile. I don't think she was on the surface when Vitiate took command of everybody.


What does the SWTOR encyclopedia state?



https://cdn.meme.am/instances/27529324.jpg

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Pretty sure you have Revan Reborn and two fodder (trainee Scourge and weakened Meetra) as possibly challenging Vitiate on a powerful dark side nexus while having just gotten back from being drugged and tortured.

Cancer



You sure Gideon doesn't have that?



Not really, I'd say it's a fair gap though.



Your rage would please Gideon most lushly.

While I find Meetra and Scourge being factors an inconsistency, (given how Nyriss handled them,) it's one I accept, because I'm such an upstanding individual.

Yeah, I'm 99% sure.

Fair enough that Valk has 0 chance in hell of ever winning?

Pure anger courses through me.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Kira.

Aha.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
And if you weren't gay then you wouldn't be doing 99% of the stuff you're doing in life.

Performing sexual acts with a member of the same gender must be that critical 1% I'm missing. mmm

I'll not join you, Beef.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Braga wasn't immune and I forgot why Beniko was immune to it, it's been awhile. I don't think she was on the surface when Vitiate took command of everybody.

She was on the surface as he was possessing more people IIRC.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
What does the SWTOR encyclopedia state?

As I've said like 3 times already, that thousands of Sith flocked to Medriaas and "agreed to partake" in the Sith ritual.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Aha.



Performing sexual acts with a member of the same gender must be that critical 1% I'm missing. mmm

I'll not join you, Beef.



She was on the surface as he was possessing more people IIRC.



As I've said like 3 times already, that thousands of Sith flocked to Medriaas and "agreed to partake" in the Sith ritual.

So you're saying he was able to convince 8,000 (eight thousand) sith lords of a totally safe ritual that's going to make the sith empire stronger? Looks like you just admitted Vitiate really did mindrape everybody, or he's the greatest BSer in the mythos

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
So you're saying he was able to convince 8,000 (eight thousand) sith lords of a totally safe ritual that's going to make the sith empire stronger? Looks like you just admitted Vitiate really did mindrape everybody, or he's the greatest BSer in the mythos

No one said Sith were always smart. Nevertheless, it says they agreed to partake in the ritual. Which corroborates the Codex.

Gnost Dural explains why the Sith partook in the ritual.

Or was it the novel? mmm

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Coruscant: he used his mind-fogging powers to conceal the burial of the Super Star Destroyer Lusankya from the population.
The entire population would not have known in the first place.

So many starships land at Coruscant at a time that many would not even bother. Therefore, if Palpatine is likely to have affected only a segment of the population.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Byss: telepathically enslaved its 19.7 billion denizens.
They were already loyal to him. And Palpatine's influence wasn't instantaneous.

Legends is right you know.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
you sure?

Doesn't the Hero fight her at one point while she's possessed by him? mmm
You are confusing Lana Beniko with Kira Carsen.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
It's a recurring theme with Vitiate's TP. People like Revan, HOT, Tol Braga, who have experienced his mindhaxx then develop an intimate understanding of it to the point that they're immune from subsequent attempts?
Those are the exceptions. And even there implied immunity is questionable or circumstantial or plot-device.

Look at the example of Jedi Master Surro - one of the most powerful Jedi of the era. She managed to shrug-off Vitiate's telepathic influence at some point but Vitiate managed to possess her again (with relatively greater effort) but inadvertently damaged her mind in the process.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The Codex entry, "Ritual of Nathema," which says Imperial scholars celebrate the ritual of Nathema as the rare coming together of Sith for the greater good and the Encyclopedia, which says thousands of Sith flocked to Medriaas to volunteer for the Sith ritual.
It was a trap. They didn't knew what would happen during the ritual.

They joined the ritual on their own but Vitiate overrode their wills as the ritual progressed, to prevent there escape.

Tbf Legend Revan does say that he fell victim to Vitiate's mental influence because he was not aware of his tricks and that after experiencing it he was capable of teaching Scourge and Meetra how to defend against it ( in mid combat if not against prolonged mental attacks by Vitiate ).

Originally posted by Syndicate
Tbf Legend Revan does say that he fell victim to Vitiate's mental influence because he was not aware of his tricks and that after experiencing it he was capable of teaching Scourge and Meetra how to defend against it ( in mid combat if not against prolonged mental attacks by Vitiate ).
Revan certainly developed potent countermeasures against Telepathy (in general) but he drew strength from Meetra's ghostly presence nearby to resist Vitiate's telepathic intrusion during his captivity. Nonetheless, a very impressive showing on his part.

However, should we assume that Vitiate's understanding of Telepathy remained static? It would have grown with passage of time. So whether Revan's countermeasures would have remained effective for indefinite period or not, is open to debate.

RoTE and KoTFE story arcs demonstrate Vitiate's progress in the domain of Telepathy.

Fair point.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

Fair enough that Valk has 0 chance in hell of ever winning?


There's always a chance, but it's probably quite small in a fair fight. Valkorion relies on being so overwhelmingly powerful that he just kills people outright; even if he can match Wankatine in power, he isn't preventing a melee.

Anyhow, yeah, I don't see in which combatively relevant category Valkorion actually has any advantage. He needs nexuses and prep to match Sidious's TP feats, and that's like his signature power.