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I can appreciate that this is BioWare's (horrible, horrible) attempt at her, but I've long denied that the Entity is Kreia.

Discuss:




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YV6TpNvBsM

Personally? I still don't believe it. In the video above, she mentions having her resting place desecrated by Baras. That can't be Kreia, since her resting place is Malachor V, which was canonically destroyed by the Mass Shadow Generator.

Well I don't know any other Force sensitive female that nearly brought the galaxy to it's knees and all but eradicated the Jedi Order centuries before TOR. Though, I guess it's ambiguous.

Drew seems to think that's her, but he has no authority over the Wrath storyline and the character models looks way more different than Kreia herself.

Welcome to SWTOR retcons, she's also responsible for leading the purge of tens of thousands of Jedi too.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Welcome to SWTOR retcons, she's also responsible for leading the purge of tens of thousands of Jedi too.

I was about to mention that. That's in the novel, right?

Yeah, SWTOR not only butchers characters but has blatant disregard for continuity. I mean, it's pretty obvious that this is an attempt at Kreia, but lord is it pitiful.

Well I figure its derived from the misinterpretation that Kreia at the end of KOTOR II was very much serious about killing the Force (which let's be honest, a lot of people on here believe), as that would explain why she "loved" the Emperor, who planned to consume all life in the galaxy. And in general the belief that Traya was 100% evil and totally not tricking the Exile into thinking that, essentially they bought the hoax. So I guess that's a plus for Kreia?

It's a plus that the Wrath seems to think that her spirit was more alive with the dark side than anything he'd ever encountered, despite him having just encountered the Voice of the Emperor and Sel-Makor on Voss. lmfao

Yeah it would make her supremely powerful by SWTOR's standards.

Yes, it's Kreia.

Great. Kreia's more powerful than Revan, now

Still dies to Vader

Her teachings are still considered game changing by TOR Jedi & Sith standards.

But don't tell the TOR Brigade that.

I wonder if Senya knew about Vitiates side-floozy.

Should we start ranking the Entity against other darksiders in history? Assuming she isn't Kreia, the Wrath comparing her favorably to all other darksiders he'd experienced would put her high as **** on the scales.

But she is kreia

How does Baras enslave her, then? With some sort of trickery/ritual, or sheer power? She just mentions her resting place being desecrated.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Great. Kreia's more powerful than Revan, now
?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
?

I'm referring to the Wrath claiming that the Entity is "more alive with the dark side than anything I have ever seen" - despite having just seen the Voice of the Emperor and Sel-Makor.

And I hope I don't have to explain what the smilies mean.

You mean after Kreia fell into a pit of dark side energy so thick it was literally visible as she died?

What a shocker she's powerful.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
You mean after Kreia fell into a pit of dark side energy so thick it was literally visible as she died?

What a shocker she's powerful.

What does falling into something after you die have to do with anything? And that only happens in the DS version.

Also, said pit got annihilated like, immediately.

She was screaming as she fell into the pit. She died in a pool of literal dark side energy.

LOL. What? She dies in both versions on the core. Like, the place she was standing when she fought the Exile. She has some resigned sigh/death rattle and then collapses and dies. After that, you throw her in if it's DS, canonically, however? You leave her there as the planet crumbles.

EDIT: There's no screams when she falls in, either. I watched both the normal and restored content DS version. She died before and then got thrown into the pit, which makes it irrelevant.

Not canon, either way.

I was thinking of the dark side ending.

Even if we go by the light side, her body and whatever was left of her still fell into the uber nexus as the Trayus Academy split.

It's more than probable she manifested herself as a spirit due to the concentration of the energy below.

It's certainly not an implausible idea.

Because thats how that works. You die near a nexus, you absorb it. Totally.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Because thats how that works. You die near a nexus, you absorb it. Totally.
Uh, most dark siders become a spirit by being attached to an uber nexus.

That's like, the main way you do it.

Like, rofl.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I was thinking of the dark side ending.

Even if we go by the light side, her body and whatever was left of her still fell into the uber nexus as the Trayus Academy split.

It's more than probable she manifested herself as a nexus due to the concentration of the energy below.



1. Not canon.

2. She doesn't scream, either way, lol. She's already dead.

3. So Traya + Malachor nexus > Vitiate/Sel-Makor? Okay. Not that Sith spirits work in that manner, anyway.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Uh, most dark siders become a spirit by being attached to an uber nexus.

That's like, the main way you do it.

Like, rofl.

They attach themselves for sustenance, dingbat. They don't become the nexus.

For one, the Emperor's Voice isn't a reflection of Vitiate's full power... especially not the one the Wrath fought.

For two, unlike Kreia which is a concentrated mass of energy, Sel-Makor's power is spread out across a landscape. You can't really compare.

And no, I'm saying it's like she's attached to the nexus and imbued with some of its power.

Originally posted by Nephthys
They attach themselves for sustenance, dingbat. They don't become the nexus.
EDIT: Ah, I think you were misinterpreting a typo. I meant spirit, not nexus.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I never said she became the nexus, dingshit. thumb up

Just that she grew more powerful as she fell into it.

Learn to read.


O RLY?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
It's more than probable she manifested herself as a nexus due to the concentration of the energy below.




Nice edit, lol.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
EDIT: Ah, I think you were misinterpreting a typo. I meant spirit, not nexus.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
For one, the Emperor's Voice isn't a reflection of Vitiate's full power... especially not the one the Wrath fought.

For two, unlike Kreia which is a concentrated mass of energy, Sel-Makor's power is spread out across a landscape. You can't really compare.

And no, I'm saying it's like she's attached to the nexus and imbued with some of its power.

1. The Wrath doesn't fight Vitiate. He fights Sel-Makor in Vitiate's body.

2. The Wrath enters the Dark Heart, encounters Sel-Makor taking over Vitiate, etc. - I'd say he knows how powerful Sel-Makor is.

3. Sith spirits are always weaker than their living selves, anyway, which is why they need a nexus to sustain thesmelves. And I don't recall a single Sith spirit doing what you mentioned. The need nexuses to manifest - they don't become the nexus, lol.

She manifested herself as a spirit due to the nexus?

Yeah, ok. Nice attempt.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. The Wrath doesn't fight Vitiate. He fights Sel-Makor in Vitiate's body.
OK, and that helps your point... how?

Originally posted by SunRazer
2. The Wrath enters the Dark Heart, encounters Sel-Makor taking over Vitiate, etc. - I'd say he knows how powerful Sel-Makor is.
Given Sel-Makor wasn't permanently eliminated, it's clear not all of his power was being utilized. So, no.


Addressed above to Neph.

Originally posted by Nephthys
She manifested herself as a spirit due to the nexus?

Yeah, ok. Nice attempt.
Uh, yeah? Dark siders generally need to anchor themselves and draw off a nexus' power to survive after death.

Hence the abundance on worlds like Korriban and Dromund Kaas.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
OK, and that helps your point... how?

Given Sel-Makor wasn't permanently eliminated, it's clear not all of his power was being utilized. So, no.


Addressed above to Neph.

1. Well, he sees the Vitiate actually possessing the Voice again after Sel-Makor's defeated. So I'd say that's a reasonable representation of his power. How weakened was he, then?

2. Didn't Vitiate force Sel-Makor out of the body once the Wrath defeated him?

Sel-Makor not being permanently eliminated does not mean he didn't use all of his power, lol. Yoda lost to Sidious in RotS without dying, but he didn't hold back anything.

3. Spirits are still shadows of their former selves in terms of power. The Malachor nexus probably only brings her back to her normal self. And how does that prove that Traya got tied to the Malachor nexus' power?

No. For one, the Emperor's Voice's are infamously weaker than the real deal. Even on Ziost, when Vitiate possess the Jedi Battlemaster, she's still clearly inferior to the protags.

It should be no surprise that Vitiate's Voss body, which was specifically given to him by Darth Baras so that he can be trapped by the power of Sel-Makor, isn't that powerful.

Vitiate's Voss body was locked in a war of wills against an individual that the Wrath bested in single-combat in the heart of his power. The Wrath clearly isn't sizing up any worthwhile piece of Vitiate's pie.

Not all spirit's are shadows to their former self, especially with a lot of power to anchor off of. If Kreia's spirit was born out of the energy of Malachor, it shouldn't be a shocker that she's more powerful than in comparison to in her physical life, in which she's vastly inferior to the likes of Darth Revan, let alone SoR Revan like you were jokingly suggesting but now want to try to defend against for some laughable reason.

Basically, all I'm saying is that there's no way Kreia would have become a Force spirit willingly. At the pit of Malachor V, it's filled with the souls of the dead and ancient Sith spirits, as I recall. It's more than likely she became a ghost due to an external source - which can be attributed to the spirits and the nexus. This makes sense of why someone who hates the Force becomes a manifestation of one, and why she clearly isn't happy with her position of a spirit when the Wrath finds her. Dismissing the circumstances of her death, especially since we know from the past about how ancient spirits anchor themselves in stuff like that, is pretty absurd regardless though.

Freedon Nadd drains the nexus of energy that is the Jedi spirit crystal, then he becomes sorta powerful. It doesn't however make any sense for Traya's spirit to be amped by Malachor V after 300 years of its physical annihilation and her place half-way across the galaxy.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Basically, all I'm saying is that there's no way Kreia would have become a Force spirit willingly. At the pit of Malachor V, it's filled with the souls of the dead and ancient Sith spirits, as I recall. It's more than likely she became a ghost due to an external source - which can be attributed to the spirits and the nexus. This makes sense of why someone who hates the Force becomes a manifestation of one, and why she clearly isn't happy with her position of a spirit when the Wrath finds her. Dismissing the circumstances of her death, especially since we know from the past about how ancient spirits anchor themselves in stuff like that, is pretty absurd regardless though.

She's not unhappy about being a spirit. She's unhappy about being enslaved to Baras' will. Regarding the fact that she wouldn't want to be a spirit - true, but it's really just a matter of TOR's horrific retcons.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
No. For one, the Emperor's Voice's are infamously weaker than the real deal. Even on Ziost, when Vitiate possess the Jedi Battlemaster, she's still clearly inferior to the protags.

It should be no surprise that Vitiate's Voss body, which was specifically given to him by Darth Baras so that he can be trapped by the power of Sel-Makor, isn't that powerful.

Vitiate's Voss body was locked in a war of wills against an individual that the Wrath bested in single-combat in the heart of his power. The Wrath clearly isn't sizing up any worthwhile piece of Vitiate's pie.

I'm aware of this, and I know that Vitiate's Voss body isn't as powerful as Vitiate himself, lol - Vitiate's confirmed to be > Traya by sources.

That said, Voss!Voice > DK!Voice, is he not?



First of all, spirits begin their existence at the moment of their death, and Traya did not die in the pit. What happens to the corpse (which is now just an empty shell) after the physical death is irrelevant.

Secondly, you haven't any proof of this, lol.

Originally posted by SunRazer
How does Baras enslave her, then? With some sort of trickery/ritual, or sheer power? She just mentions her resting place being desecrated.

To answer my own question, it's probably the former. The Wrath makes it clear that the Entity > Baras in dark side power.

I'm confused why you felt the need to respond point-by-point when you only made one point relevant to me responding back to.

Originally posted by SunRazer
First of all, spirits begin their existence at the moment of their death, and Traya did not die in the pit. What happens to the corpse (which is now just an empty shell) after the physical death is irrelevant.
Proof? That may be the case for Jedi spirits, but that doesn't necessarily make sense for Sith spirits. Or else they would then immediately attack their slayer (take Marr's or Kallig's spirit, for example).

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I'm confused why you felt the need to respond point-by-point when you only made one point relevant to me responding back to.

Sounds like a concession to the other points. But I wanted you to answer me if Voss!Voice > DK!Voice.



Sith spirits suffer dramatic losses in power, so why would they attack somebody who had just slain their more powerful form?

Also, I believe most Sith spirits manifest later than the time of their death, but their spirits are relative to their physical selves as they died, not after.

Examples? Exar Kun? Marka Ragnos? Naga Sadow? They all died on nexuses as well, but they never absorbed the power of those nexuses into their being. In fact, they produced nexuses upon dying.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Sounds like a concession to the other points.
Uh, what other points? You literally made none. You agreed she didn't want to be a spirit. You agreed Vitiate's Voice is far weaker than his normal sense.

And then the only last part is what I responded to just then. You're way too insecure.
Originally posted by SunRazer
But I wanted you to answer me if Voss!Voice > DK!Voice.
Definitely not.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Sith spirits suffer dramatic losses in power, so why would they attack somebody who had just slain their more powerful form?

Also, I believe most Sith spirits manifest later than the time of their death, but their spirits are relative to their physical selves as they died, not after.

Examples? Exar Kun? Marka Ragnos? Naga Sadow? They all died on nexuses as well, but they never absorbed the power of those nexuses into their being. In fact, they produced nexuses upon dying.
Uh, because they're a spirit? Generally you can't fight a ghost. Luke Skywalker and Darth Nox (prior to mastering the walking technique) learned that the hard way.

Cool. I don't believe that, especially since you have no proof. This thread is clearly an opinion thread. Obviously, though, my opinion is better than yours. Anyway...

Uh, what proof do you have that they didn't? That seems like a hard claim to make. I find it very likely that, with their death, the nexus was instrumental in their transfer to the afterlife.

Once again, it provided an anchor of dark side energy for their conscience to live on. For Kreia, that nexus was a pit of near-tangible dark side energy that vastly outstrips that of Yavin IV or Korriban.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Uh, what other points? You literally made none. You agreed she didn't want to be a spirit. You agreed Vitiate's Voice is far weaker than his normal sense.

Well, I claimed that it was likely one of TOR's continuity-ignorant retcons, which you didn't reply to. I take that you agree, then?



Tough talk coming from a child like you.



Why? I mean the Voice that fought HoT.



Spirits tend not to be able to do things to more powerful Force users. Luke and Nox weren't as powerful as Kun + Kyp/Kallig at the time of their losses.



So far, you've been getting disproven all thread. Not much of a record to base your superiority on, eh?



Because Sadow lost to Barel Ovair (I know he may not have entirely possessed Eison Gynt, but w/e) and Ragnos lost to Jaden Korr? And Kun couldn't use all of his powers in life? I don't think that would happen if they were more powerful as spirits than in life.



Tangible energy? The Tombs of Kressh/Nadd/Sadow left behind tangible energy centuries or even millennia after their death.

Also, Ragnos died on Korriban, which had a more potent nexus at that time than during the KotOR era, and we know how powerful the nexus was then. As for Kun, he died on Yavin IV, which, three centuries later, was still "on another level entirely" to Oricon, which was "immeasurably strong in the dark side". I question whether the Malachor nexus was more powerful than either.

http://i35.servimg.com/u/f35/18/71/58/99/spirit10.png

http://i35.servimg.com/u/f35/18/71/58/99/kreia10.png

So, Kreia's spirit is anchored somewhere. Oh my, I wonder where it could it. It couldn't possibly be the uber nexus her body literally fell in and her spirit is directly above, could it?

Oh my, I wonder who's going to be more powerful. Kreia's physical body, who's a mediocre Sith Lord, or Kreia's spirit, who's power is directly tied to one of the most powerful nexus' in history.

Face the facts. You brought yourself into a thread that didn't need to have a debate, and now you're going to leave beaten, afraid, more insecure, and emotional than before.

The instances you cited with Ragnos and Kun don't compare to Kreia's circumstances. The depths of Malachor V is a vastly greater nexus than Korriban and the Dark Temple (which Jedi students were fine operating in).

And, to mop up your final points:


Kallig was mentally enslaving the entire area around the Dark Temple, and then ragdolled Nox. He's well beyond him.

I see absolutely no reason that a spirit's energy can't clash against another's energy because they are "more powerful."

The fact Krayt and Skywalker's energy bodies were able to hang with Abeloth is further proof of this - and further proof of why I'm a god.



Yeah.



I took that as a concession on your end for not looking at this intelligently. Was I mistaken?

Only Nova and I can have a heated two page debate on the power of Kreia's spirit.

mmm

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
http://i35.servimg.com/u/f35/18/71/58/99/spirit10.png

http://i35.servimg.com/u/f35/18/71/58/99/kreia10.png

So, Kreia's spirit is anchored somewhere. Oh my, I wonder where it could it. It couldn't possibly be the uber nexus her body literally fell in and her spirit is directly above, could it?

Thanks for providing the evidence to kill off your own case. Traya's "anchored" to a nexus that's no longer existent since Malachor V canonically gets destroyed, and as your quotes state, destroying that source of power/anchor gets rid of the spirit.

So at best, the Entity is anchored somewhere else, not Malachor V. Also, your quotes state that Sith spirits rarely move beyond their anchors, and the Entity's on Corellia. And I know you're going for that quote stating that the anchor is related to their death, but it says "usually", not "always". Malachor V's destroyed, so it's impossible to be related here.

And at the end of the day, it says the anchor allows the spirit to manifest, not that it amps the spirit. I've given you plenty of examples, and not one Sith spirit was more powerful than it was in life. You have no case for why Kreia as a spirit would be stronger than she was in life.



Mediocre? She's effortlessly crushed "ultra-powerful Sith Lords" who are among the greatest of the OR era.

That you've resorted to petty lowballing proves that you're on the retreat. You're running out of actual arguments.



https://youtu.be/yZ6QQsJ0eFE?t=4



You saying this doesn't prove it, lol. Ragnos died on a nexus more powerful than the KotOR/KotOR II Korriban nexus, which affected Surik and her companions a hell of a lot more than on Malachor (yes, Surik grew since Korriban, but again, Ragnos' Korriban > KotOR Korriban, so it cancels out).



You mean mop up your act of proving my points?



That's what I said. Thanks for agreeing with me.



They can, but they don't have to. You already cited instances where they did, lol.



Because their full essences and Sith spirits which are canonically weaker than their physical selves are comparable?

For a god, you're getting humiliated.



I asked why, not yes or no, which you already answered.



You might think that; I couldn't possibly comment.

On the other hand, I can comment on the fact that TOR's already butchered and retconned a number of Kreia's major aspects, so why stop there?

The destruction of the planet wouldn't have destroyed the energies around the area.

Take the nexus Palpatine formed above Endor, for example.


She's unquestionably mediocre compared to Kun, Revan, Ragnos, Sadow, etc. She even states as such.

I'm surprised you're even trying to argue otherwise, especially since I believe you have that stance too.


The nexus of Malachor mind-****ed Kreia to the dark side.


What? Krayt and Luke are vastly inferior to Abeloth - just as you argued inferior spirits can't take on more powerful characters.

But the former can... and the latter can.


Uh, better feats?

You've lost, Nova. Embrace defeat.

You added this, so:


It associates the spirit's "power" with the nexus. It states that if you cut it off from the nexus, it's power is gone.

Kreia's source of power is the greatest font of nexus on Malachor V.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66

The destruction of the planet wouldn't have destroyed the energies around the area.

Take the nexus Palpatine formed above Endor, for example.

Which wasn't anything of substance, compared to the likes of Dagobah, which was formed by some mook Dark Jedi dying. Obviously it was lessened dramatically.

Also, I'm pretty sure Palpatine's nexus dissipated not too long afterwards. It's not that big. It's been 300 years between KotOR II and TOR. The nexus would've declined immensely even if it did remain.



Saying she's mediocre compared to top guns doesn't make her mediocre in the grand scheme of things, lol. After all, Revan and Sadow etc. are mediocre compared to Sidious.

Also, she states that she's mediocre to Sadow?



You mean according to Chronicles of the Old Republic, which got retconned by Knights of the Old Republic: Campaign Guide so that she was tempted by forbidden knowledge/Sith hermetica into studying the dark side.

By contrast, in the actual game, Korriban's nexus evidently affected the Exile & party more than Malachor.



Don't you top your language classes? Please tell me you can understand what I was saying.

I was mocking the notion that Luke/Krayt beyond shadows were similar to Sith spirits who were canonically weaker than their physical selves. Also, they fought a portion of a weakened Abeloth and were still losing until she died in other places in the galaxy.



Forcing out Sel-Makor > failing to destroy T3

Friend, there's something called circumstances. Doesn't DK!Voice/Scourge claim that he's the weakest he's been recently? If there's nothing to indicate that, I'll agree with you.



No, I haven't. You haven't proven anything.



Even though she's on Corellia, and as your same source states, Sith spirits don't stray from their anchors? Halfway across the galaxy and 300 years after the nexus was destroyed. Funny.

Ragnos was tied to a very powerful nexus, yet he lost to Jaden Korr. I'm pretty sure you and a lot of others reason that it's because Korriban's nexus sucked hard at that point/Tavion's body sucked. But I mean, those factors can't be relevant according to this discussion.

I have no clue what point you're trying to make about Dagobah, but I see absolutely no indication it was lessened. Even if it was, the nexus was so ridiculously powerful it shouldn't even matter. Plus, Kreia states Baras desecrated a physical resting place for her, so her corpse must have been found in the rubble that was remained from Malachor V, further strengthening the notion of her attachment to the local area (i.e. the energy of Malachor V).


In the ground scheme of things, she's still mediocre. She's not among the greats - she's not even the next level down.

The level of power Wrath is implying is vastly inconsistent with what we know Kreia to be capable of (not much).


Uh, the whole ancient Sith Lords would rape me speech?


There's no retcon. Chronicles states she was consumed by the dark side as she entered Malachor V. The Campaign Guide states the foundation and formation of Kreia's philosophy that the Force is evil. They can stand together.


Yeah, and I said that was a retarded point - and then explained why.

Also, let's refer back to your dismissal of Kun attacking Luke. You state "Spirits tend not to be able to do things to more powerful Force users," but Kun directly did stuff to Luke. The fact Durron was there to aid doesn't change the fact that Kun was still less powerful than Luke - but still managed to do things to him.


It's almost like they grew as characters. mmm

In KotOR II, Malachor was portrayed as a dark side abomination that corrupts all who walk on it's surface. That isn't the same for Korriban.

On Korriban, the greatest focal point of power is the Star Map. Now, if we're going to act like that's a more powerful nexus than the Trayus Core, we're done here.



LMFAO WHAT? How the **** are we suppose to compare the Voices then? The Voss!Voice couldn't even kill himself. He was pathetically weak.

If we're not comparing them by feat or accolades, we're just being guessing blindly. And while you can do that and be laughed at, I'm not.


I doubt Vitiate would claim such a thing - and I doubt Scourge knows about Vitiate's adventures on Voss when the Dark Council didn't and Scourge wasn't even his Wrath any more.


https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-HXCLMIS2W_g/V4XCja794dI/AAAAAAAAAuI/8LMyQmyr1J4_t6GkbQldlJOS-gMYDIcMACL0B/w395-h101-no/dark%2Bspirit.PNG

Darth Baras' compound must have a taint of the dark side in it. Hm, who would have guessed?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66

I have no clue what point you're trying to make about Dagobah, but I see absolutely no indication it was lessened. Even if it was, the nexus was so ridiculously powerful it shouldn't even matter. Plus, Kreia states Baras desecrated a physical resting place for her, so her corpse must have been found in the rubble that was remained from Malachor V, further strengthening the notion of her attachment to the local area (i.e. the energy of Malachor V).

My point is that Palpatine's death should've made an incredibly powerful nexus, but it ended up being only a small one, so the destruction of the Death Star likely dramatically lessened it. Moreover, aren't dark side nexuses places where DS energy is imbued in physical places?

Look at your quote again:

http://i35.servimg.com/u/f35/18/71/58/99/spirit10.png

They're anchored to an object or location, which, when annihilated, severs their ties to the universe. Malachor V/the Trayus Core was destroyed (you see the Trayus Core crumbling away, and it's reaffirmed by sources), which should sever her ties to the universe. So she's not anchored to Malachor.

It also states "most" DS spirits, again, not all. Kreia seems like an exception to this "anchor" stuff. The only thing she seems anchored to is Baras, lol.



Given the amount of fodder and co. that exist, she's pretty high up.



Funny. That's not how you take the quote about Meetra saying Mando Wars Revan >> Nihilus.



The one about lightsaber combat? Yeah, not relevant.



Not at all. You claimed that the nexus mindraped her, which didn't happen. She got intrigued by Sith hermetica and decided to study more of the DS lore. Nothing to do with the nexus.



No, you didn't. You didn't know what I saying, lol.



Kun + Kyp is powerful enough to affect Luke, not to mention it being attacks that Luke couldn't counter. I never denied that this could happen.



Keep up, child. I already accounted for this earlier by stating that it's cancelled out by the Korriban nexus deteriorating between Ragnos' death and KotOR.



That's what she claimed - it didn't happen to any of the Exile's comrades, just as it didn't on Korriban. Except Korriban literally blocked the Exile's companions from entering at certain points, and it mindraped the Exile a hell of a lot more than Malachor V did despite being a Wound in the Force.



Do you have a quote?



You mean because Sel-Makor took control of him? Failing to destroy T3 on a nexus is also pathetically weak.

We can compare them as equals. There's no reasonable factor to influence the difference between the two in terms of power - other than the fact that Vitiate gets weakened again by another failed ritual prep, IIRC. Otherwise, it's just him possessing bodies. No difference, lol.



The same quote says they have to be familiar with the place and can't travel to places that they haven't been to before.

Can you fix the formatting?

Is it better now?

Alright. We're getting really off track here, and it seems clear neither of our positions are really going to waver. I'll still respond to all your points though - and reclarify some of mine.

The destruction of Malachor V doesn't classify as annihilation. It wasn't wiped completely. Malachor V is still there, just turned into asteroids. Apparently Kreia's body rested somewhere on the asteroids. The energy also can't be destroyed when the rocks split apart. That's basic science. Your point concerning Endor doesn't stand because the nexus was the remnants of Palpatine's physical body. His spirit and power was preserved as a spirit, so thus the nexus wasn't on an extreme scale. That's my interpretation on it, at least. In regards to Corellia, I find it silly to assume Kreia never traveled to their before. It's one of the most populous and important planets in the galaxy. But yes, my argument requires speculation. The entire debate is speculation trying to make sense of BioWare's disgrace of KotOR II. However, the area where she trapped in can easily pass as a nexus if we're being reasonable. Fine, you may disagree - I don't care enough to spend numerous pages debating it with you and neither of us getting no where. I presented the evidence on why I think this is the case, and I've also admitted the areas where a bit of brain work is needed. If you don't want to give the benefit of the doubt on those few gaps, whatever.

Your theory is simply not consistent with what we know of Kreia's power and character. And no, this is different from the instance with Revan and Nihilus because, unlike them, I have presented an actual reasoning why the difference in Kreia's power may be the case. If no reasoning was available, like in regards to Revan and Nihilus and it's pretty clear and dry, I'd agree, but that isn't the case. Also, KotOR II heavily suggests Revan's superiority to Nihius time and time again as well, so it's not even inconsistent either - it just looks strange due to a feat comparison.

In regards to proof about the Star Map, you know the quote I'm referring to, so I'm not sure why you're asking for it.

In regards to spirits not being able to affect more powerful beings than themselves, your Kun point makes no sense because it's wrong, but since you can't grasp my point, I'll refer to another example. On the False Emperor flashpoint, the protagonists confront, battle, and vanquish a Sith spirit. Is it ridiculous to assume that this random Force spirit wasn't more powerful than the Hero of Tython? If not, then your point doesn't hold. Since you want it to hold though, I assume you'll say that isn't the case.

And I find a difference because Voss Vitiate was seemingly intentionally given to Vitiate by Baras because the body had weaknesses. That isn't the case for the Emperor that the Knight fought. Also, during the Voss episode, wasn't Vitiate also orchestrating the ritual that would have consumed the galaxy and dominating the minds of the Jedi strike team? In his final fight with the Hero of Tython, his power isn't spread out as thin.

I don't see the point of continuing this debate. It's not getting anywhere and it's not relevant. You're blatantly ignoring my points - either out of ignorance or bias. Unless you have something meaningful to add, I'll have to pull the "agree to disagree" card, since I don't see myself continuing this at 1:30 am, and I don't see myself continuing this tomorrow where I can assume our interest in this topic would be completely gone.

Like Sasukedc said:

Originally posted by NewGuy01
It's certainly not an implausible idea.

And I'll leave it at that.

I'll respond later. I'm not ignoring anything.

Typical Nova; always wanting the last laugh.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Typical Nova; always wanting the last laugh.

Not at all. I've let plenty of people have the last word just because it doesn't mean anything. I'm interested in presenting my case, that's all.

Do you get profits from belittling everyone?

You just described over half the forum with that last statement.

Nah, some do it more than others. DC's messing with me, though.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Do you get profits from belittling everyone?

No, but I do get my kicks out of it.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The destruction of Malachor V doesn't classify as annihilation. It wasn't wiped completely. Malachor V is still there, just turned into asteroids. Apparently Kreia's body rested somewhere on the asteroids.

Trayus Core, where she died, definitely was destroyed by falling into the core of the planet. That aside, I think Malachor being torn apart counts as annihilation - I'll elaborate using examples later.

Also, you think Kreia's body would survive three centuries after it fell into the core of the planet that was torn apart by the Mass Shadow Generator?



"Basic science" can't account for supernatural things like dark side energy, I'm afraid. Moreover, I don't believe that an object has to be literally atomized to be "annihilated".

But for the sake of comparison, here's an example of a Sith spirit being destroyed when his anchor is destroyed:

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/8/8d/ShatteredTalisman.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20100703210431

Here, Muur's spirit is destroyed when his anchor, the Muur Talisman, is "annihilated" - but it's not literally erased from reality, just broken into fragments. The same happened to Malachor V, and certainly to the Trayus Core. I think the fact that sources reaffirm Malachor V's destruction is enough.



Fair enough.



It's not silly at all. Just because it's one of the most populous doesn't mean she has to travel to it.



Well, that's something we can both agree on.



Are you referring to Corellia or Malachor, here?



And fair enough, but you're relying on me being way too charitable towards your case whereas you don't seem inclined to offer me the same charity. It seems like you're deadset on trying to disprove this and that you just don't want it to be true. Perhaps if you could acknowledge that my case is just as plausible or possible as yours?

On a historical basis, Kreia's spirit would simply not be amped by any nexus, since that has never happened before, and on an evidential basis, the destruction of Malachor V/Trayus Core is enough to qualify as the destruction of Kreia's anchor, much as it was for Muur. The facts are aligned with me on Malachor V not amping Traya's spirit, here.



What theory? That Traya had no amplification as a spirit? I'd say that's a reasonable assumption, because no Sith spirit's ever been amped compared to their living forms before.

And besides, consistency? I'd like that as well, but there's just about no consistency between TOR and KotOR II, I'm afraid.



Fair enough. I'm just disputing it because I think you're looking for way too many holes - most or all of which probably wouldn't have even be considered by BioWare when they wrote that segment.



I'd say it's pretty clear cut and dry. If MW Revan's TK was vastly above that of Nihilus' fleet-resurrecting BS, he frankly wouldn't have needed the Mass Shadow Generator.

Regarding KotOR II, I don't remember his superiority over Nihilus being heavily implied time and again. And then there's the fact that Avellone obviously has a disconnection with how powerful Revan/the Ancient Sith are compared to the rest of the lore.



I'm no longer following you, but essentially my point is that no Sith spirit has ever been amped upon dying, and their nexus amping them has simply never happened before. The spirits of Ragnos, Kun, Muur, Nadd and Sadow etc. were not more powerful than they were in life. That's why they wanted strong hosts/return to the flesh to regain all of their former power. There should be no difference with Traya.



Is there ever any elucidation on what these weaknesses were? I find it difficult to believe that the Emperor would accept bodies that were inherently weakened in terms of Force strength or capacity, so any weaknesses must've been through other means.

Besides, I thought the bulk of Baras' plan was to get Sel-Makor to overwhelm Vitiate and take control of his Voice, not just sabotage the body and be done with it.



Don't know if the Emperor was actively orchestrating it, but clearly the backlash from the failed attempts at the ritual weakened him further, which is why Scourge wanted them to attack after repeatedly foiling the Emperor's attempt at the ritual. I really doubt DK! Voice was stronger. He was actively trying to hide from everything else so he could recuperate his strength.



Not being implausible =/= likely. I don't want to sound presumptuous and emphasize that my take on this is better than yours or anything, but Occam's Razor would support my case. There's just no need to be riding on assumptions and speculations as in your case.

Yeah, The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia confirms that the core of Malachor V was annihilated by the Mass Shadow Generator at the end of KotOR II. I think that's where the nexus stems from, unless I'm wrong.

Yeh, the core of Malachor V is the geyser of dark side energy.

TCSWE claims that the core was "blown up", which sounds sufficient for "annihilation".

Why is this still even a thing? Canonically it's Kreia.

Nah, we're discussing her power levels, now.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Should we start ranking the Entity against other darksiders in history? Assuming she isn't Kreia, the Wrath comparing her favorably to all other darksiders he'd experienced would put her high as **** on the scales.

Let's do this, now. Whether or not she's Kreia, where would you guys rank the Entity?

So if the Entity is > Baras (which means Baras used some sort of ritual/trickery to subdue her), that would likely make her (Kreia?) at least on par with the Wrath II in terms of Force, since I don't believe Baras was that far off from the Wrath. When does Baras receive his power-up from Sel-Makor?

And if it is Kreia, then it's almost certainly a weakened spirit of her, so yeah, she'd be even more powerful than the Sith protags by their vanilla endings.

Let the pink ribbons fall

He's even draining her spirit and gaining her farsight powers, for decades at that.

I think that's Drain Knowledge as opposed to Drain Life, which wouldn't work on a spirit anyway.

It's still using her to become powerful, either way. Tulak Hord feeds on spirit's power, Nadd feeds on them. Spirits can empower living beings.

What other major dark side individuals has the Wrath encountered that have been neglected a mention here?

Dread Masters, iirc.

That's after vanilla. Unless you mean breaking them out on Belsavis, in which case I can't remember when that happens.

And people will probably laugh at the notion of a weakened Kreia > Dread Masters.

Belsavis takes place well before that, the Entity is the prelude to the final.

Is it actually a quest on Belsavis, or is it one of those post-50 quests?

You break out the Dread Masters from Belsavis, whilst killing Baras' sister.

So it's a Belsavis quest?

You don't think it's hard to stomach a weakened Kreia > the Dread Masters?

Those Dread Masters themselves were weakened at the time, furthermore, there are people here who think Vader can stomp them, so eh.

How weakened?

Fresh out of a decades long imprisonment, where Esh'ka were draining them to gain their own dark side powers.

So where does the Entity's powerscaling leave her, would you say? Solely based on her powerscaling.

Only Sith I'm hazy about are the Emperor and the Dread Masters, the rest are fair game for the Entity, even Jadus tbh.

The Wrath doesn't encounter Jadus.

Which isn't relevant considering the other Sith that the Wrath had a reference point for.

You've lost me.

Sel-Makor + Voss of the Emperor > Jadus.

Based on?

Because Vitiate > Jadus regardless of state.

Again, you've lost me. What is this based on?

If the Entity is > Voss of the Emperor, then she's > Jadus too.

Yeah, I got that. But how can you so confidently say that weakened Voice > Jadus?

She can't lol.

The Dread Masters are so far beyond the scope of Kreia, it's ludicrous.

Vitiate wills her out of existence, Wrath cuts her to ribbons, Nox blows her apart, Jadus turns her into paste, etc.

Nah. She probably does transcend Jadus, tbh. Nox isn't blowing anything apart. As for the Wrath, we're talking about power, not skill, and regarding Vitiate - obviously. Traya's only above some hugely weakened Voices.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
The Dread Masters are so far beyond the scope of Kreia, it's ludicrous.

Vitiate wills her out of existence, Wrath cuts her to ribbons, Nox blows her apart, Jadus turns her into paste, etc.
Thanaton and Baras could take her too.

Oh, Malgus also blows her apart.

That reminds me - you haven't responded in the gauntlet thread.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Nah. She probably does transcend Jadus, tbh. Nox isn't blowing anything apart. As for the Wrath, we're talking about power, not skill, and regarding Vitiate - obviously. Traya's only above some hugely weakened Voices.

Based on what? Her "oneness with t3h Dahk Sied!!!1111"? That doesn't stop anyone from putting Jadus/Dread/Protags above Malgus, and the same should apply to Traya. Her removal from Baras's playing cards turned him from indestructible to nigh-indestructible. Whoopdie-do.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Based on what? Her "oneness with t3h Dahk Sied!!!1111"? That doesn't stop anyone from putting Jadus/Dread/Protags above Malgus, and the same should apply to Traya. Her removal from Baras's playing cards turned him from indestructible to nigh-indestructible. Whoopdie-do.

Not sure what you're talking about, but instantly killing three Masters whose combined power telekinetically reassembled the Enclave in short order is pretty damn good. As is instakilling/TP-KOing half a dozen of the strongest Sith.

But yeah, being more powerful than Baras despite Baras spending decades leeching off her is another argument.

Quote/gif?

Just play the bloody game, lol. Or watch a walkthrough.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Just play the bloody game, lol. Or watch a walkthrough.

So you can't prove your words?
Consession accepted.

*Sigh*

https://youtu.be/rH4QfUBsfxw?t=160

https://youtu.be/Q8gqAHAaJGk?t=13

Anyways, let's assume Dantooine is your last planet. The other Masters on other worlds have claimed that they'll attempt to travel to the Enclave but obviously they haven't done it yet since they're nowhere to be found at the Enclave, which is still a ruin. The Enclave stays that way until the Battle of Khoonda, after which Vrook says he'll head to the Enclave and does so. You can head over immediately, and as soon as you do, the Enclave is miraculously rebuilt. Nobody else has the resources/capacity to rebuild the Enclave, let alone in such a time, and the local scavengers (the closest group to the Enclave and who make regular journeys back and forth) do not notice any change. Moreover, even though you've yet to even reach the entrance of the Enclave, the panning camera clearly shows the East Entrance (previously locked by debris) suddenly opening of its own accord. Nobody's behind the door, so it's obviously done by the Force. Nobody's inside (or outside) the Enclave, either, except the Masters, who say that they were expecting you.

The Enclave is in ruins when you visit, after you find all the masters its been reconstructed. Only scavengers go there so it had to be the Jedi.

Yeah, and only people who haven't played the game try to look for holes in it. Once you play the game or even watch a complete walkthrough, it's blatantly clear who does it, lol.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Not sure what you're talking about, but instantly killing three Masters whose combined power telekinetically reassembled the Enclave in short order is pretty damn good. As is instakilling/TP-KOing half a dozen of the strongest Sith.

But yeah, being more powerful than Baras despite Baras spending decades leeching off her is another argument.

People were moaning about how she's, "more alive with the dark side," than anything the Wrath ever felt. I was bringing up how Malgus's, "oneness with the dark side" doesn't automatically put him above people like Vitiate, the Dread, Jadus, protags, etc.

How long is, "in short order?" Hours? A day? A week? Ultimately, the feat isn't all too impressive. And Traya didn't even kill them with telekinesis. If we want to bring up feats, the Wrath was solo'ing planetary armies back on Balmorra, (or was it Taris? Meh,) and killing Marka Ragnos's pet Terentatek as an acolyte. Also defeated one of the greatest overseers in Sith academy history as an acolyte. Baras would godstomp the Wrath as of Balmorra/Taris.

She's not more powerful than Baras.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
People were moaning about how she's, "more alive with the dark side," than anything the Wrath ever felt. I was bringing up how Malgus's, "oneness with the dark side" doesn't automatically put him above people like Vitiate, the Dread, Jadus, protags, etc.

That just means she's stronger in the dark side than anything else the Wrath has ever encountered. Not hard to understand. I mean, "alive with the dark side" has been used twice before, and it meant "strong in the dark side" in both cases (admittedly referring to objects and places, but still, there's no difference in meaning). So being more alive in the dark side than anyone the Wrath has known = being stronger in the dark side than anyone the Wrath has known.

There's nothing/nobody to scale Malgus' retarded Oneness thing off. It's commonly accepted to be a power boost for him anyway, so I'm not seeing your point?



Seconds-minutes, most likely. How long does it take for the Exile to run out of the Administrator's compound and head over to the Enclave? We know the Masters did it in less time.



Who cares what she killed them with (considering there's cut content with her absolutely manhandling them with TK). Her ability to Drain not only their life forces but also their connections to the Force to zilch is far better than killing them with TK.



Impressive but unless he faced them all at once, it's more a feat of stamina than sheer skill.



As an amped acolyte, but that aside, how is this something that can be used against other Force users who don't fight in remotely the same way? The only thing Ragnos' Terentatek has going for it is that it's undergone enough alchemy to become a DS nexus, which would amp the Warrior even more. It's good, but you just can't compare it to fighting other Force users. It's too different.



Because he was one of the best teachers, not because he was one of the strongest. I don't think any Sith Lord gives the square root of jack shit as to how powerful an overseer is, lol - their job is to teach. Overseers are more or less failed Sith Lords, anyway. Even the most powerful of them wouldn't be stronger than one of those Sith that Traya instakilled on Malachor.



All the better for Kreia, then.



She's stronger in the dark side according to the Wrath despite Baras feeding off her for decades.

Ah, fair enough Nova. Any idea on how long it took to rebuild the Enclave, tho?

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Ah, fair enough Nova. Any idea on how long it took to rebuild the Enclave, tho?

Shorter than it takes for the Exile to run from the Administrator's compound to the Enclave. At most a couple of minutes - it might even be a bit less than a minute.

That's probably not accurate though considering its based off game mechanics.

Not at all. The lengths in KotOR II are obviously in standard proportion with other visual sources like the comics.

If I based it off game mechanics, it'd be seconds, rather than minutes.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
That's probably not accurate though considering its based off game mechanics.

horrific to actually think it took them seconds or minutes.

I'll respond to the rest of your cancur when I'm not on the phone, in the middle of a dental appointment.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Not at all. The lengths in KotOR II are obviously in standard proportion with other visual sources like the comics.

If I based it off game mechanics, it'd be seconds, rather than minutes.
The Star Forge was supposed to take an hour. Malachor probably took a little more than twice that overall, if not more. Visuals has never been a strong point in early BioWare engines.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
The Star Forge was supposed to take an hour. Malachor probably took a little more than twice that overall, if not more. Visuals has never been a strong point in early BioWare engines.

Malachor can be less than an hour.

That's not the point. I'm talking about dimensions, not fights.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Not at all. The lengths in KotOR II are obviously in standard proportion with other visual sources like the comics.

If I based it off game mechanics, it'd be seconds, rather than minutes. Lol no, not even remotely.

Yes remotely. There's only a few discrepancies, which aren't enough to make the Exile getting from the compound to the Enclave in hours, days or weeks a reality. It's in minutes.

There are plenty friend, like the canonical order of planets, the real size of Dantooine rather that which meets the games requirements, the need to eat, sleep, rest that the player doesn't have to perform.

It a simple and recognised fact that realism is often compromised in videogames for the sake of the user's experience.

I'm talking about physical dimensions, not eating or sleeping. Cantina sizes etc. are roughly similar to what we see in movies.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I'm talking about physical dimensions, not eating or sleeping. Cantina sizes etc. are roughly similar to what we see in movies. Because there is no need for then to be smaller, the same can't be said for the world map.

Well, it's not perfect proportions, but absolutely nothing reasonably suggests that it'd take hours, much less days or weeks, for Surik to get over to the Enclave, lol. It'd take minutes - not necessarily a few minutes, but still less than an hour, under reasonable claim. Anyways, there's a huge focus on this timeframe. All we know is that it's quick - the local scavengers never notice a difference despite their regular journeys to and from the Enclave. It'd have to be before they could make another one of those trips. So it taking days or a week is utterly ludicrous.

I'm not suggesting it took days or weeks merely that your calculations are based on game mechanics and therefore not strictly accurate.

You don't need to base it off game mechanics at all. In fact, game mechanics are the only reason that the scavengers stand in one spot huddling around their campfire. They'd be walking around and likely keeping an eye on the Enclave because they consider it their turf. In fact, one of the scavengers has a clear line of sight to the Enclave (one of the damaged bits, too). If he and the others didn't notice the Enclave being rebuilt, it was because it was done too quickly - ergo, in minutes. Suggesting that it'd be hours or days or weeks before even one of them cast a glance at the Enclave and noticed something was different is utterly ludicrous, as I said. And I'm not saying you said it - but Skillz proposed those timeframes. It's not. It's in minutes at most.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Malachor can be less than an hour.

That's not the point. I'm talking about dimensions, not fights.
It doesn't take an hour with fights or otherwise.

That's why it's about compression.

Doesn't matter, we're going off-topic now.