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As the title says.

Duo.

Luke wins in one hell of a fight. Galen is more of an annoyance and Revan is just straight up a tough one

Luke wins without too much difficulty.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Luke wins without too much difficulty. Lol.

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Luke wins in one hell of a fight. Galen is more of an annoyance and Revan is just straight up a tough one Galen Marek was able to tank Sidious Lightning without Oneness for a short time, his lightning being > Valkorion's, but maybe not by that point.

Luke is ludicrously powerful, Marek is pretty damn good but Luke would still wreck him.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Lol.

It's implied that Vader and Galen together would have lost to Palpatine.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
It's implied that Vader and Galen together would have lost to Palpatine. It is? Where?

Thats stupid btw.

I could've sworn there was a quote somewhere saying that the Emperor can "destroy them both", but regardless, if the two together could have taken down Palpatine, Vader would've tried. Most generously, we can say that the outcome would have been inconclusive.

Luke is powerful enough to ragdoll Galen or Revan, seeing as how he could ragdoll Caedus. I see this as a Dooku vs. Anakin and Obi Wan, except lopsided towards Skywalker.

Nah. Two ANH Vader-tier enemies wouldn't have beaten the Emperor if he was cutting loose.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Duo.

Luke if he isn't jobbing. Marek and Revan, aren't anywhere near him in the Force.

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Luke wins in one hell of a fight. Galen is more of an annoyance and Revan is just straight up a tough one

"The Sith lightning spread to engulf the two of them, fueled by both their desperations. The Emperor tipped back his head and howled in lascivious pain. Darkness threatened to envelop the apprentice's mind, but he clutched to consciousness with feverish will. He had to see this through. He had to.

A squadron of stormtroopers ran into the room, led by a limping Darth Vader. They raised their blasters to gun down the Rebels as they fled up the Rogue Shadow's ramp.

"No!" the apprentice cried, dropping his defenses to strike one last time at the Imperials." - The Force Unleashed.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I could've sworn there was a quote somewhere saying that the Emperor can "destroy them both", but regardless, if the two together could have taken down Palpatine, Vader would've tried. Most generously, we can say that the outcome would have been inconclusive.

Luke is powerful enough to ragdoll Galen or Revan, seeing as how he could ragdoll Caedus. I see this as a Dooku vs. Anakin and Obi Wan, except lopsided towards Skywalker.

There's no quote like that though I'm interested to hear where the idea of it originates from considering many people have brought it up in previous threads but have been unable to substantiate it's existence.

Yeah, RotJ Sidious is soundly below peak Luke anyway.

He would ragdoll Galen if he was inclined to do so.

Suffice it to say I disagree. I actually believe DE Sidious to be more powerful then Luke as a force user and RotJ to be about on par.

Umm, no, LMAO. Luke feats are better than Palpatine across the board, honestly.

Also, Luke completely dominating Darth Caedus effortlessly, is evidence enough he would dominate Marek in the same way --- to an even easier degree.

Sidious was stated to be capable of taking apart the Imperial Palace, a superior showing to taking apart the Byss castle. Sidious has access to far more destructive force powers like force storms and is generally is generally far more knowledgable in the Force along with having better TP and lightning. What exactly does Luke exceed him in Forcewise?

Given Caedus hasn't even demonstrated force feats on par with Vader I'd have to disagree.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Sidious was stated to be capable of taking apart the Imperial Palace, a superior showing to taking apart the Byss castle. Sidious has access to far more destructive force powers like force storms and is generally is generally far more knowledgable in the Force along with having better TP and lightning. What exactly does Luke exceed him in Forcewise?

Given Caedus hasn't even demonstrated force feats on par with Vader I'd have to disagree.
Uh, didn't Palpatine himself muse that? You know, the most arrogant and overconfident character in all of Star Wars?

If we are really taking character's own assessments of their power seriously, Revan can wipe out Yavin IV by hand.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Uh, didn't Palpatine himself muse that? You know, the most arrogant and overconfident character in all of Star Wars?

He's actually quite insecure in his own thoughts. But the idea that he'd lie to himself about how powerful he is is kind of funny. Nobody is more worked up over the extent of their power/the limits of their power than Palpatine.

What he says vocally may not be accurate, but what he knows he can do in his private mind is different. And hardly unbelievable, anyway.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Also, Luke completely dominating Darth Caedus effortlessly
Eh, he didn't though. The pinning was not in a combat situation. Caedus didn't defend himself.

Hence why when they fought, a bloodlusted Luke didn't instantly destroy him - because he can't.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Sidious was stated to be capable of taking apart the Imperial Palace, a superior showing to taking apart the Byss castle. Sidious has access to far more destructive force powers like force storms and is generally is generally far more knowledgable in the Force along with having better TP and lightning. What exactly does Luke exceed him in Forcewise?



What do Force storms and TP have to do with his lock with Galen?



He's explicitly above Vader; sorry, but just saying publisher's statements aren't valid because you don't like them isn't an argument. Publishers have creative license too.

Regardless, even if you think Galen Marek is a challenge for Luke, Revan hasn't shown anything to suggest he is.

Originally posted by SunRazer
He's actually quite insecure in his own thoughts. But the idea that he'd lie to himself about how powerful he is is kind of funny. Nobody is more worked up over the extent of their power/the limits of their power than Palpatine.

What he says vocally may not be accurate, but what he knows he can do is different. And hardly unbelievable, anyway.
That's laughable. He's blatantly arrogant in nearly every source we have for him and completely misjudged his powers and abilities against the Luke/Leia duo and also Mace if you believe he didn't throw the fight.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
What do Force storms and TP have to do with his lock with Galen?



He's explicitly above Vader; sorry, but just saying publisher's statements aren't valid because you don't like them isn't an argument. Publishers have creative license too.

Regardless, even if you think Galen Marek is a challenge for Luke, Revan hasn't shown anything to suggest he is.

They don't. DC was stating Luke's superiority to Sidious as a force user and I was asking him what feats Luke has that rival Sidious's own.

I'm sorry but I won't support unsupported quotes like Plagueis > Valk or Caedus > Vader. I'll leave Revan to Ant.

Prime Luke? I don't think it's a question that he's above DE Sidious, tbh, other than the Sidious > Luke counterculture.

He's above Luke.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Sidious was stated to be capable of taking apart the Imperial Palace, a superior showing to taking apart the Byss castle.

It's reliability aside, he only actually says he could destroy his office as I recall. People seem to have just jumped him destroying the whole thing despite that not being what it actually says.

It says he can crack the foundations of the building with a thought, which is large enough to house 900m Star Destroyers.

And?

And that's good?

Luke has better, though.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
That's laughable. He's blatantly arrogant in nearly every source we have for him and completely misjudged his powers and abilities against the Luke/Leia duo and also Mace if you believe he didn't throw the fight.

Definitely not in Mace's case, lol.

For Luke/Leia, he claimed things verbally, which I already said can be taken into question. And this passage seems to reflect authorial intent.

Originally posted by Syndicate
They don't. DC was stating Luke's superiority to Sidious as a force user and I was asking him what feats Luke has that rival Sidious's own.


Black holes, which you still don't think is impressive for some reason, UnuThul, Caedus, Vader's fortress, killing seven slayers, etc.



The quotes are their own support. That's like saying you don't support the Plagueis' novels description of Tenebrous because it isn't "supported" anywhere else - it counts as evidence unto itself.

Anyway, the case for Luke being leagues above Galen, even if you ignore all of his monstrous feats, is that he was already matching Vader as a duelist as of RotJ, with like a few months of real training.

If you wish to suggest that Vader was "conflicted", follow your own tongue and prove up.

Additionally, Vader and Sidious were both immensely pleased by Luke's progress, even though they thought he had been training from a young age. So they thought his ability at that age matched what they'd expect someone with Skywalker's potential to have. .i.e. Luke grows powerful immensely quickly, and then grows for 40 years to his peak, and it's ludicrous to assert that he wouldn't have vastly outstripped Vader, who had about 30 years to train and half the potential.

Palpatine can underestimate others, but he seems fairly realistic about his own abilities in an absolute sense. He acknowledges that he can't control his storms by RotJ, that he needs to work on this or that, etc.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I could've sworn there was a quote somewhere saying that the Emperor can "destroy them both"

The Emperor tells Vader that to his face when he encounters Starkiller for the first time. "Now you will kill him or I will destroy you both."

But that was pre-prime 'Killer, to be fair.

Yeah, manipulating a Dovin Bassal, before gaining a substantial amount of power, is totally superior to possibly bringing down palace.

Not to mention, Luke was far from his prime collapsed, recreated, then destroyed, the mountain size structure, anyway. Scale it, and it's > Palpatine not-so-infallible quote on his TK.


Luke isn't a DS, so of course he wouldn't have any destructive powers like that in his repertoire.

That being said, if Luke's n00bs trainee Jedi could create something similar to a Force Storm like Skywalker mused in Dark Apprentice, I don't see why Luke couldn't if he actually tries.



Nah, LMAO. Luke has shown abilities Palpatine couldn't dream of. Show me Palpatine using Art of Small, Fold Space, Flow Walk, Alter Environment, doppelganger, invisibility, etc.


Debatable. Luke creating an illusion only Caedus can see --- the same Caedus that no sold Thul TP in a weaker state --- is just as good as anything Sidious has done.


Luke doesn't even use lightning, KEK. Not like it matters, Force Light and Electric Judgement, more than make up for this. As well as his far superior defensive showings.



Caedus deflecting/shielding himself from turbolsaers is just as good, if not better, than anything Vader has done in the Force. He has also ragdolled X-Wings, tossed around shuttles, and choked Jaina --- the same Jaina --- that was manipulating aircrafts while they carried tons of cargo, against their will, before becoming more powerful.

His mastery, versatility, and knowledge in the Force, clearly supersedes him however, and that's not debatable.

But even if you are correct (which, you aren't), the ease at which he performed the feat, would still mean he could do the same to Galen, just with more effort. Unless you think there is a massive difference between Jacen and Galen, which, is down right cancer.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The Emperor tells Vader that to his face when he encounters Starkiller for the first time. "Now you will kill him or I will destroy you both."

But that was pre-prime 'Killer, to be fair.

Well, I mean, he was also dying on the floor at the time.

Palpatine might've used Fold Space to transmigrate his spirit across countless light years in very short timespans.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Well, I mean, he was also dying on the floor at the time.

Doesn't Palpatine say this before Vader backstabs Galen? I haven't played in ages.

Out of curiosity do you have a quote on the size of Vader's fortress Luke took down?



Luke's best feats are probably, not necessarily in order (although UnuThul may be 1):

1. Tanking UnuThul's TK and becoming literally immovable.
2. Manipulating artificial singularities.
3. Pinning Caedus to his chair with a gesture.
4. Destroying and rebuilding Vader's fortress.
5. Cloaking a 1600 km long (IIRC) capital ship.
6. Creating and moving through a dogfight a physical copy of the Falcon.
7. Creating illusory fleets that could fool Caedus.
8. Fighting Abeloth (although this is more difficult to quantify).
9. Storming Shimrra's palace.
And I may be missing a few.

While he doesn't have any raw destructive feats on par with Force storms, you wouldn't expect him to as a Jedi. His actual telekinesis feats outstrip RotS Sidious's and probably RotJ/DE Sidious's, as do his combat feats, his illusions, etc.

Sidious's advantages, like storms and his mind-fugging of Byss, are things you wouldn't expect Luke to do anyway.

Plus, given his potential and that he beat Wankatine in a duel in DE with just some unlocked reserves from Leia, it seems likely given his growth curve that he'd have surpassed Sidious perhaps by NJO, certainly by DN/LotF.

I'm pretty sure it's the size of a mountain, Elli. I can't be bothered to look for the quote ATM, though.

^ ok, that was actually directed at DS before getting ninja'd.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Eh, he didn't though. The pinning was not in a combat situation. Caedus didn't defend himself.

Hence why when they fought, a bloodlusted Luke didn't instantly destroy him - because he can't.

Doesn't matter, LMAO. Luke didn't actually put any sort of visible effort into it whatsoever, and Caedus still couldn't break free, even after Luke walked down a hallway and shit. Caught of guard, or not, Jacen inability to break free proves they aren't close in the Force at all.

As for Luke not TK'ing him in his fights, so what? Luke didn't TK stomp Lumiya in their bouts either, or all the other foes he neglected to use his power advantage on.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Well, I mean, he was also dying on the floor at the time.

Oh shit, that's right. He was stabbed before the Emperor walked in.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Palpatine might've used Fold Space to transmigrate his spirit across countless light years in very short timespans.

He did that via Force Storm, IIRC.

Yeah, Caedus admits that he can't break free and that Luke could kill him at any moment, it was hardly like he was just letting Luke pin him there for the lultz.

As for why rage Luke didn't TK him, it was a dumb blunder spurred by anger. He decided to just leap at Jacen, disregarded environmental hazards that he could clearly see, etc. The alternative explanation that he just can't is obviously wrong given that Caedus admits that he can - and even if you think that's just because he was taken by surprise, Luke could've easily taken him by surprise during their fight, since Caedus thought he was dead. The explanation that Luke wasn't thinking clearly is more consistent with the evidence than the one that Luke can't do it.

As for why he didn't TK Lumiya, that's obviously not because he can't - Lumiya is explicitly pretty weak in the Force. He also could've just shot down Lumiya in his starfighter but directly stated in his narration that he wanted to confronted Lumiya personally. Then, after defeating her, he grabs her just so he can decapitate her ceremoniously. Again, no sign of wanting to go for the tactically optimal moves. Lumiya herself never had any doubt that she could defeat Luke.

It should also be noted that in Invincible, Luke is meditating on all the future possibilities where he fights Jacen himself, and he says that he wins in all of them (but falls to the dark side).

@Syndicate, also note that rage! RotJ Luke was utterly overwhelming Vader through his sheer power in the Force (it's not like he was frazzling anyone with technique lol), and I doubt that he was on par with his LotF incarnation.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Black holes, which you still don't think is impressive for some reason, UnuThul, Caedus, Vader's fortress, killing seven slayers, etc.



The quotes are their own support. That's like saying you don't support the Plagueis' novels description of Tenebrous because it isn't "supported" anywhere else - it counts as evidence unto itself.

Anyway, the case for Luke being leagues above Galen, even if you ignore all of his monstrous feats, is that he was already matching Vader as a duelist as of RotJ, with like a few months of real training.

If you wish to suggest that Vader was "conflicted", follow your own tongue and prove up.

Additionally, Vader and Sidious were both immensely pleased by Luke's progress, even though they thought he had been training from a young age. So they thought his ability at that age matched what they'd expect someone with Skywalker's potential to have. .i.e. Luke grows powerful immensely quickly, and then grows for 40 years to his peak, and it's ludicrous to assert that he wouldn't have vastly outstripped Vader, who had about 30 years to train and half the potential.

Dovan Basil's which are far less powerful then most real life singularities. Ant has already explained that Caedus wasn't fighting back against Luke. The Imperial Palace feat is about as good as Luke taking apart Vader's castle. You'll have to explain the 7 Slayers and Unuthul feat to me.

Evidence is evidence unto itself and they most often take the form of feats. I don't view quotes as evidence.

And Galen was stated to be Luke's photo negative. It's apparent to me that Luke simply spent more time honing his lightsaber capabilities over his force abilities. There's also the fact that Luke was already an adult by the time he started training, his learning curve is going to be much greater then that of a child's. Galen himself grows about as much as Luke once he gets out from under Vader's thumb and is exposed to multiple facets of the Force.

I believe both Vader and Luke were hindered to an extent but I believe RotJ Luke is an equal as a lightsaber combatant to Vader.

Where does it say Vader and Sidious expected Luke to have been trained prior to ANH?

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
He did that via Force Storm, IIRC.

It says using ancient knowledge to rend the fabric of space itself, which could be a precise application of Storm, or Fold Space. Either way, it's something to the effect of teleportation.

"Caedus wasn't fighting back"
Yes, he was, kek. And he still couldn't do jack shit, LMAO.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Yeah, manipulating a Dovin Bassal, before gaining a substantial amount of power, is totally superior to possibly bringing down palace.

Not to mention, Luke was far from his prime collapsed, recreated, then destroyed, the mountain size structure, anyway. Scale it, and it's > Palpatine not-so-infallible quote on his TK.


Luke isn't a DS, so of course he wouldn't have any destructive powers like that in his repertoire.

That being said, if Luke's n00bs trainee Jedi could create something similar to a Force Storm like Skywalker mused in Dark Apprentice, I don't see why Luke couldn't if he actually tries.



Nah, LMAO. Luke has shown abilities Palpatine couldn't dream of. Show me Palpatine using Art of Small, Fold Space, Flow Walk, Alter Environment, doppelganger, invisibility, etc.


Debatable. Luke creating an illusion only Caedus can see --- the same Caedus that no sold Thul TP in a weaker state --- is just as good as anything Sidious has done.


Luke doesn't even use lightning, KEK. Not like it matters, Force Light and Electric Judgement, more than make up for this. As well as his far superior defensive showings.



Caedus deflecting/shielding himself from turbolsaers is just as good, if not better, than anything Vader has done in the Force. He has also ragdolled X-Wings, tossed around shuttles, and choked Jaina --- the same Jaina --- that was manipulating aircrafts while they carried tons of cargo, against their will, before becoming more powerful.

His mastery, versatility, and knowledge in the Force, clearly supersedes him however, and that's not debatable.

But even if you are correct (which, you aren't), the ease at which he performed the feat, would still mean he could do the same to Galen, just with more effort. Unless you think there is a massive difference between Jacen and Galen, which, is down right cancer.

Honestly it depends on the power of the Dovan Basil which is unspecified at least from what you told me in the Kyp vs Galen thread.

Palpatine was not in his prime when he mused he was capable of doing this as well. I see no reason to doubt he is capable of such when he is able to create force storms capable of swallowing moons.

He should have shown capabilities of similar magnitude.

Quote that the force storm its referring to is akin to Sidious's rather then the "storms" of lightning Bane and TOR era characters often employ?

Like dominating DE Luke? Erasing the memories of a portion of Coruscant's population? Zombifying Byss?

I'm referring to Luke's electric judgement here. Call it energy manipulation if you like.

??? Vader has shieleded himself from the largest droid factory in the Outer Rim exploding. I doubt Caedus shielding himself from turbolasers is intended to be superior despite calcs you'll likely pull out claiming that. Ragdolling ships is child's play to Vader. Quote me Caedus choking Jaina? I'd like some context. Regardless Vader choked Galen briefly pre prime who is superior to Jaina.

*Shrug* Sidious has the entirety of the Rule of Two's accumulated knowledge and apparently can create new Force powers on a whim. I'd side with Sidious if we're talking versatility in power sets.

I think there's a moderate power difference between them.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
@Syndicate, also note that rage! RotJ Luke was utterly overwhelming Vader through his sheer power in the Force (it's not like he was frazzling anyone with technique lol), and I doubt that he was on par with his LotF incarnation.

I don't think he was. I think that Luke takes sabers solidly against either or both Revan and Luke. I'd argue the team could take it by relying on their force abilities.

Guys I can't keep up against a tag team. I'd ask that one of you take over the responses please and thank you.

Wassup with the cancerous formatting?

Eli can take over if he likes. I'm not overly interested in this discussion anyway.

Thanks.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I could've sworn there was a quote somewhere saying that the Emperor can "destroy them both", but regardless, if the two together could have taken down Palpatine, Vader would've tried. Most generously, we can say that the outcome would have been inconclusive.

Luke is powerful enough to ragdoll Galen or Revan, seeing as how he could ragdoll Caedus. I see this as a Dooku vs. Anakin and Obi Wan, except lopsided towards Skywalker. Uh, Vader said that he never planned to destroy the Emperor with Marek.

Can anyone upload the scan of Luke pinning Caedus?

Not saying it doesn't exist, just saying I haven't ever really seen it.

It's a quote I believe.

Legacy of the Force: Inferno

"Don't play stupid," Luke snapped. "This isn't about the academy. It's about Ben."

"Ben?" Caedus stopped at the corner of his desk, feigning shock. "Did something happen to him?"
"You tell me," Luke said. "You're the one who sent him."
"Sent him where! I've hardly spoken to Ben since the funeral."

In the next instant, Caedus found himself flying across the cabin toward his observation bubble. Luke had not gestured, had not flinched, had not even shifted his gaze; he had simply grabbed Caedus in the Force and hurled him five meters into his chair.
"Don't lie." Luke started across the cabin. "I'm getting tired of it."
Caedus sprang out of the chair... or attempted to. Instead, he found himself struggling against an invisible weight. He felt as if he were accelerating to lightspeed with a faulty inertial compensator.
"Luke, you've gone mad." Caedus reached for the controls on the arm of his chair and discovered he couldn't even do that much. "You can't do this. I know you're having trouble dealing with Mara's death, but..."

"This has nothing to do with Mara," Luke said. "And you're lucky it doesn't. If she were here-if she had known what you were using Ben for-there'd be pieces of you scattered along the entire length of the Hydian Way."

The irony of the statement was far from lost on Caedus, but he was too astonished-and too frightened-to take any pleasure in it. While it was true that Luke had taken him by surprise, it was equally true that he had done so with no visible effort-and that he was continuing to hold him with no apparent exertion.

Keenly aware that all that stood between him and a quick death was Luke Skywalker's much-strained sense of decency, Caedus let a little of his very real fear seep into the Force, just enough to seem properly alarmed.

"Does this have something to do with Cal Omas?" he asked. "Tell me Ben didn't do anything foolish!"

Luke's eyes grew narrow and cold. "Tell me what makes you think he might have."

"Of course," Caedus said. " Ben learned of a conversation that made it look as though Omas had something to do with Mara's death."

" That's ridiculous," Luke said. " Chief Omas would never have done something like that."

"Never have!" Caedus echoed. "You mean Ben.... you mean Omas is dead?"
Luke looked at him without answering.

Caedus would have shaken his head, save that it was still being held motionless with the Force. Had it been Mara's death instead of Omas's that Luke had just heard about, Caedus knew he would already be dead. Another reminder that anyone could be surprised.

"I tried to tell Ben the same thing, but he's so full of anger." He locked gazes with Luke. "I'm afraid he's going to become its servant, if one of us doesn't reach him soon."

Luke nodded, then sat on the corner of Caedus's desk. "How did Ben find out about this conversation?" Caedus forced himself not to look away. "I wish I knew."

"You told him." When Luke's expression did not change, Caedus realized that his uncle had been expecting the lie, that he had already worked matters out for himself. "It's just so convenient for you, isn't it? You let something slip in an innocent conversation and point Ben like a missile."

" That's not what happened." The denial was strictly for form; Caedus knew Luke wouldn't believe it. "But even if it were, now is hardly the time to discuss it. We're a Squib's hair from victory. After we crush the Confederation, I'll be..."

Krova's voice came over the comm speaker. "I'm sorry to interrupt, Colonel Solo, but Admiral Bwua'tu is ready for the Hapans." Caedus felt a knot unwind inside. Finally.

"Tell Admiral Bwua'tu the Hapans will be coming shortly." Caedus had retained personal control of the Hapan Home Fleet, determined to prevent any risk to Tenel Ka or Allana by not using it until victory was certain. He waited until Krova had acknowledged the order and closed the channel, then turned to his uncle.

"I've told you all I know about Omas's death, and I need to transmit that order myself. The Queen Mother insisted I take personal responsibility for committing her fleet."

Luke raised his brow. "You think you're dismissing me?"

"I know I am." Caedus put an angry edge in his voice; he might be trapped in a humiliating position right now, but he was still the leader of the Galactic Alliance-and Luke was still its servant. "If you like, we'll open an inquiry into Omas's death after we've saved the Alliance."

Luke glared at Caedus for a long moment, then finally slipped off the desk. "Is that a promise?"
"It is."
"Then I'll take it for what it's worth, "Luke said. Leaving Caedus Force-pinned in his chair, he started toward the door. "I'll show myself out."

Caedus knew he would be freed as soon as Luke turned his concentration to something other than Force-pinning him-but that might take minutes, and Caedus needed to send in the Home Fleet now. Besides, he was the Chief of State of the Galactic Alliance, and he could not allow anyone, even Luke Skywalker, to humiliate him and simply leave. He had to assert some sort of authority.

"Luke," Caedus called. "Aren't you forgetting something?"

Luke stopped at the door and looked back, the rage in his face now softening to what looked like remorse. "You're right. I should warn you that you'll have to crush the Confederation without StealthXs. The Jedi can support you no longer."

"What?" Caedus was so shocked that he tried to rise- and found himself as unable to move as before. "You can't desert now. We can end this war!"

"We could destroy the Confederation fleets and kill a lot of rebels, "Luke admitted. "But I don't think you can end this war, Jacen. I don't think you even know what it's about."

"That's absurd." Caedus did not understand how a man who had been fighting wars for forty years could be so foolish. "After their fleets are destroyed, Corellia and Both-awui will have to accept our terms, and once they've surrendered, the rest of the Confederation will have no choice but to come racing to rejoin the Alliance."

Luke shook his head and reached for the touch pad beside the door. "There's always a choice, Jacen."

"And if you go through with this one, you'll regret it." Caedus could not understand why Luke wanted to desert him just when they were on the brink of saving the Alliance, but he did know how to prevent it. "Have you forgotten the academy?"

The door opened. Instead of stepping through, Luke faced Caedus and spoke in a very calm voice. "I'm sure you're not threatening the younglings."

He pointed at the base of Jacen's meditation chair and made a tapping motion with his finger. The pedestal gave a loud whumpf, and the seat dropped a quarter meter.

"Because you really don't want to see me angry." Luke made the tapping motion again. The pedestal emitted a metallic shriek, and the seat dropped another quarter meter. "And I think you're smart enough to know that."

Luke tapped a last time, and the pedestal collapsed with a low loud crump, depositing Caedus on the floor with his feet sticking out in front of him like a child.

"But if you want to try me, go ahead and make that threat."

Luke lowered his hand, and the weight vanished from Caedus's chest. He could have leapt up to attack-had he been that foolish-but Sith were not slaves to their emotions. Avenging his humiliation could wait until after he had saved the Alliance. So, remaining on the floor where Luke had deposited him, Caedus simply touched the comm pad on his armrest. "Lieutenant, do we have an open channel to Prince Isolder yet?"

Holy shit thats hilarious.

Yeah, it's kinda funny when the villain is so massively weaker than one of the protagonists.

People talking about Caedus wasn't fighting back.

Yeah, Caedus admits himself that Luke could kill him anytime he wanted, and when Luke finally lets him go, he admits that trying to attack would be foolish. There's no denying that he got punked hard.

So yeah, Luke clowns Galen with ease.

Found the feat where Luke rebuilds Vader's fortress:


--Taken form Before the Storm

Keep in mind of 3 things:

1. After rebuilding the Fortress, Luke moves his E-Wing to it's hanger --- showing just how huge it was.
2. The monstrous structure is larger than the cliffs nearby
3. When Luke reaches the top, his view is vitiated by lower storm clouds, proving just how gigantic the structure was exactly

He later destroys it, and scatters it's remains in the sea:


--Taken from Tyrant's Test

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
So yeah, Luke clowns Galen with ease. Caedus couldn't Tutaminis Sidious' lightning.

Galen did.

That single act puts him above Caedus.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Found the feat where Luke rebuilds Vader's fortress:


--Taken form Before the Storm

Keep in mind of 3 things:

1. After rebuilding the Fortress, Luke moves his E-Wing to it's hanger --- showing just how huge it was.
2. The monstrous structure is larger than the cliffs nearby
3. When Luke reaches the top, his view is vitiated by lower storm clouds, proving just how gigantic the structure was exactly

He later destroys it, and scatters it's remains in the sea:


--Taken from Tyrant's Test

Fantastic.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Caedus couldn't Tutaminis Sidious' lightning.

Given Jacen was never in that situation, we don't know. Suffice to say: Jacen's feat of no-showing turbolasers, superior knowledge, and mastery --- tells me, he could, in fact tutaminis Sidious lightning for a brief period of time.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
That single act puts him above Caedus.

Yeah, your logic is pretty shit, per-usual.

To be honest those weren't exactly heavy turbolasers, they were like barely kicking up dirt in the sand and Zekk was deflecting them too. But correct me if I'm thinking of the wrong time.

Yeah, you're thinking of a different instance, tbh.

But it's amazing how Luke lifts the entire fortress into the air, and then blasts it away all at once - that might be the most impressive TK feat in the mythos.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Yeah, you're thinking of a different instance, tbh.

Do you have a source, or at least a description?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Do you have a source, or at least a description?

I believe it was stated by Jaina, rather than shown, IIRC. I believe it was in one o the Dark Nest books, but I don't know which one, tbh.

I'll try to dig and find it.

That fortress feat is pretty danke.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
But it's amazing how Luke lifts the entire fortress into the air, and then blasts it away all at once - that might be the most impressive TK feat in the mythos.

It is, other than Abeloth.

Eh, Nihilus > imo.

Also I don't see why that would be better than the dovin basil thing taking Ellimists ideas into account.

You're assuming Ellimist's ideas aren't just him spitballing.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Eh, Nihilus > imo.


Nihilus lifted the Ravager on a nexus, and it's not clear if he actually did that.

Also I'm pretty sure the fortress would actually weigh more than the Ravager.



Yeah, the black hole feat is up there too, but this one is far less controversial.

He also did it before he ate several entire planets, bro. Plus gravity well.

I highly doubt the fortress was anywhere near 1200 feet in size.

Seems pretty big regardless.

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/4/45/Bast_Castle.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20051114085340

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/b/b1/BastCastle1319.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20100404205859

Originally posted by Nephthys
He also did it before he ate several entire planets, bro. Plus gravity well.


We don't know how strong the gravity well was, or how much stronger Nihilus grew, but we do know that Malachor's nexus is pretty powerful. We also don't know how long it took him to do this, how much it strained him, whether he gathered his energies, etc. Luke does his pretty casually, and this isn't even his prime yet.



It reached above the clouds and was big enough to have a hanger for starfighters.

It's 1200 meters, not feet, which makes it about 3x better.

But how big is Vader's fortress?

Dunno. We know is was big enough to dock E-Wing fighters, and tower over storm clouds.

^ that should make it several times taller than the Ravager is long, and I'm guessing from what you'd expect a fortress to look like that it's probably wider relative to its height than the Ravager is.

We know what Vader's tower in particular looked like and it's spire increased it's height greatly to the point that i'd say it's height exceeded its width. Check the pictures Zen provides at the top of the page.

Well, every planet is different, but on Earth, storm clouds are less than 2000 feet above sea level. That's about 609m -assuming it's even remotely similar on Vjun, it'd be 600-650m - just over half the length of the Ravager (1200m).

The castle was built on a "grim, stony peak."

Mmm, so less than half of the Ravager's height, then.

The clouds are also lower than usual on Vjun than other worlds, although they are still hundreds of meters high.

Is it ever shown how powerful the gravity vortex on Malachor is?

The last quote is a bit strange. Surely ships would not be able to leave Malachor with a gravity vortex that powerful? And yet even Sion repeatedly left Malachor via ship.

Originally posted by SunRazer
The last quote is a bit strange. Surely ships would not be able to leave Malachor with a gravity vortex that powerful? And yet even Sion repeatedly left Malachor via ship.

That and the Ebon Hawk.

I assume the well was in a specific location on the planet. I really have no clue how gravity well works, so someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but based on the picture shown on wikipedia, the broad area at the top can easily represent the fleet battle while the certain point being the exact position where the Mass Shadow Generator fired down into the core. All of the ships seem to have been pulled from that large area into an immensely dense area (kilometers deep). I assume Darth Sion wasn't in the radius of the gravity well, especially since the Trayus Academy survived the destruction (while all the other underground cities were destroyed), suggesting the detonation occurred on the exact other side of the world (which makes sense, since Revan wanted to preserve the Trayus Academy).

Basically, I think there's a specific location in Malachor where the gravity is utterly ridiculous, and then the farther you get from it, the weaker the pull from the center. The ship Darth Nihilus raised would have been in the most concentrated part.

Fair enough.

Apparently gravity well projectors can stop ships from entering hyperspace/pull them back into real space (The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia), and I'd assume Malachor's gravity well is stronger.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Apparently gravity well projectors can stop ships from entering hyperspace/pull them back into real space (The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia), and I'd assume Malachor's gravity well is stronger.
Revan's normal Interdictor-class Warships are armed with four of those. The Mass Shadow Generator must be infinitely greater in potency.

/watch?v=VBQHtF3WhMw

Well, the MSG can tear apart planets, so of course it's infinitely stronger.

Your video's stuffed up, by the way.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-ms2Co9FjomQ/V4cY_4Y6tKI/AAAAAAAAAw4/WdJGJnJ07NM0NHaN1KK2iP5DkMlTfN7JgCL0B/w796-h462-no/cool%2Bpic.png

So Darth Nihilus not only raised a 1,200 meter ship, but he raised it first from kilometers deep in the ground (ridiculously insane), and then from Malachor V's own gravity well.

The feat is definitely better than Skywalker's Bast Castle feat, from what I can tell. And Revan is even better than prime Darth Nihilus.

So is Traya

Definitely not.

You have Kreia above Nihilus? The ****?

In fairness, the Exile never really sees Prime Nihilus's command of the Force. Firstly, he dazes and stuns her and her crew, and right after that, he fails his Drain, weakening her.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
You have Kreia above Nihilus? The ****?

Not over Prime Nihilus. Malachor Nihilus? I'm not sure.

The script notes that the Jedi Exile was gauging Darth Nihilus' power when he stunned her, and she realized she was "far more powerful" than she even previously imagined (and note Marr was telling her stories about how he severed the life of planets prior).

Responded to the PM on CV.

BTW, didn't you use to say that you didn't seriously take MW Revan > Prime Nihilus? Or do you actually believe it, now?

Originally posted by SunRazer
Or do you actually believe it, now?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8NniKYiy2I

I heard "no".

Ant's Revan > Nihilus > Luke logic doesn't hold, unfortunately.

To be honest, Darth Nihilus have superior showings than even Luke Skywalker.

Nah.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Nah.
Yes.

1. Lifting Ravager from a gravity well and keeping it intact in the space

2. Katarr

Granted that Darth Nihilus is not attuned to the Force like Luke Skywalker but he have his unnatural methods to draw power from the external environment and perform ridiculous feats.

Glad that you acknowledged that he was amped in both. Luke's singularity feat is better than the Ravager. Luke hasn't shown Drain or similarly destructive powers, so that can't be compared.

Apparently UnuThul was channeling 375 planets' worth of Killiks' power when Luke tanked his TK?

EDIT: It's 375 nests.

^ pretty sure it's mentioned to be trillions of killiks.

You have no idea how powerful the gravity well was, so it's difficult to quantify the Ravager feat even if it happened.

Edit: didn't see Ant's quote.

So where do you rank Nihilus' TK feat? You can't assume the nexus does the heavy lifting in that scenario or else Surik becomes a hell of a lot higher than people have her.

Anyway, that's a retcon. Originally, Nihilus tore the Ravager from orbit.

@Ant gravity wells like the artificial one created here without the proportional mass-energy don't exist in real life, so it's difficult to draw a comparison to "how they work"

@Razer - I feel like I'm still missing some context. If we assume Nihilus used TK, which I don't really, then it could be really impressive. But it's also possible he was using the engines too and adding his own power.

"Drag", "haul" and "rip" sound like applications of telekinesis to me. And the Ravager's engines might not have even been functioning at first. It was "twisted wreckage", after all, and possibly in the form of numerous fragments.

Where does it say it was twisted wreckage?

Also Vader's fortress may have been built on a peak, but it's body still touched the sand, i.e. the beach at sea level if I'm reading it correctly.

The same quote that describes the gravity vortex two pages ago.

And even if it touches sea level, that's still only 600m as compared to the Ravager's 1200m. You really can't compare these.

Now, Luke's singularity feat/resisting UnuThul's TK, however...

That doesn't necessarily apply to the Ravager, which was never stated to have been buried. Indeed it wouldn't have helped him much if it had been destroyed.

Regardless, from its description I'm pretty sure the fortress is much wider than the Ravager is, given that it has a hanger along its width and blends in with the beach/etc.

Because capital ships don't have hangers large enough to hold dozens of fighters?

There's also a quote that Ant reminded me of in LotF Inferno where Jaina realized that Luke hasn't shown her more than a quarter of his power, and she was with him in TUF.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Because capital ships don't have hangers large enough to hold dozens of fighters?

This one is along its base, and presumably only a fraction of it too.

Luke also crushes the fortress to dust.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
That doesn't necessarily apply to the Ravager, which was never stated to have been buried. Indeed it wouldn't have helped him much if it had been destroyed.

Regardless, from its description I'm pretty sure the fortress is much wider than the Ravager is, given that it has a hanger along its width and blends in with the beach/etc.

Actually, the point was that the ship should've been destroyed, but it's claimed by Nihilus' minions that he holds the ship together with his sheer will. And the novel's essentially saying that every ship that was involved in the Malachor battle (sans Revan and Exile's ships, since they were a safe distance away) got caught by the Mass Shadow Generator and and curbed. Sounds like a retcon to what KotOR II depicts, in part.

The fortress' width would have to be more than twice that of the Ravager's to compensate for length/height disparity.

Not every ship. Ships could still leave Malachor; the gravity well's influence clearly isn't constant.

Nihilus's minions are full of shit, nothing happened to the ship when he died.

Maybe this is mostly intuitive but I don't think a fortress would have the same elongated dimensions as a warship, particularly given its description, so I could buy it being comparable in overall volume - but given the margin of error of these feats/calculations, a margin of error of like two is pretty petty to dispute in either case.

----

I've been on my phone so sorry for the haphazard writing, but it seems as though Nihilus's feat has the advantage of a gravity well, while Luke's wasn't on a nexus, was done with demonstrable ease, and also involved crushing the fortress to dust. Both were done before their primes. Which one is more impressive would depend on a lot of factors, but probably mainly on whether the engines were functioning and how strong the gravity well was at that location.

^ note that Nihilus had an arbitrary amount of time to gather his energy while Luke does this all casually.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Not every ship. Ships could still leave Malachor; the gravity well's influence clearly isn't constant.

The only ships that could leave Malachor were from the Trayus Academy, which was not affected by the Mass Shadow Generator. Ant pointed this out a few pages back - Revan obviously saved it so that he could learn the Academy's secrets.

And as Ant also pointed out, it's likely that the gravity well was mostly centered towards the opposite side of the planet, or another part of it, at least. There are some wrecked ships near the Trayus Academy, but the Academy itself is unaffected despite the world's environment being ravaged.



I'd say that's just one of KotOR II's big plot holes. After all, it's pretty much certain that the Jedi Council rebuilt the Enclave, but it's miraculously rebuilt even when you kill all of them before they have a chance to meet.

The reason I say that is because it's not just Nihilus' minions, but also the KotOR II Prima Guide and The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia that claim that Nihilus held the ship together.



The fortress clearly has elongated dimensions as it rises higher and higher. Neither the fortress nor the Ravager are consistent in that dimension all the way through.

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/swfanon/images/8/8c/BAST_CASTLE.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20100617001641

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/4/45/Bast_Castle.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20051114085340

Still on my phone.

The point is that the gravity well probably isn't constant in strength, given that the Academy wasn't affected, and we don't know how far away from the well the Ravager was and so it's difficult to quantify it.

If encyclopedias said so, then the best rationalization may be that Nihilus was using some sort of sorcery outside of telekinesis.

Well either way we can't know the exact dimensions of the fortress or heck the upper limit of its height (just that it's higher than the storm clouds), but in either case I don't think it matters - Luke didn't struggle at all in his feat so it's not like if it were 1200 instead of 600 meters tall he'd be like I can't do it.

So without the gravity well, Luke's feat is way more impressive given that he does it with no effort and also crushes it to dust. Add in the gravity well, but that needs to balance with the nexus. Nihilus was pre prime but so was Luke.

No source confirms that Nihilus knows Sorcery - not even the KotORCG, which suggests that Malak did.

Didn't he do some shenanigans to make his armor?

Regardless the point is it wasn't conventional TK. It couldn't have been.

That's Essence Transfer.

Why not?

Because it wasn't affected by his weakening or death.

Plot hole, as I've said and given a comparable example for.

Yeah and this is how we rationalize said hole...

We can't. It's just a hole in writing.

What kind of Sorcery holds it together, anyway? Manipulation of things is exactly what telekinesis is defined as. And you're appealing to ignorance if you think Nihilus knows Sorcery.

No, I'm producing a theory that fits the facts, which is superior to the one you're assuming, because it does not fit the facts. Appealing to out of universe PIS leaves a hole in the continuity and breaks suspension of disbelief, i.e. what makes the idea of these hypotheticals possible in the first place.

Also, why is it that we take the holding the ship together seriously and dismiss its continued existence, instead of just saying the encyclopedia is wrong and he didn't hold it together? If we're going to ignore things it seems pretty prejudiced to keep the source that benefits your position.

Or I could say that Nihulus being able to TK the Ravager but then needing help to defeat Traya is a plot hole so we should just dismiss the feat. That would be silly.

1. When you have to appeal to ignorance to "fit the facts", I hardly think you can say it's a superior course of action.

2. It's more than one in-game source and more than one out-of-universe source. I don't think any debater's opinion takes precedence over that.

3. Avellone's confirmed that Nihilus could've done it alone and that Sion was there for a "physical reminder".

Postulating things to explain a phenomena is done all the time in Real Life (science, forensics, etc.). It's how we got universal gravitation, the Higgs boson, continental drift, etc. You create theories, try to falsify them, and then apply Occam's razor to the ones that remain...

It's certainly better than just dismissing a hole in your own theory with out of universe hand waving (i.e. What you're doing)

Occam's Razor supports my point.

For the record, I have a history of trying to justify things in-universe, so it's actually quite hard for me to accept out-of-universe explanations, but that's what it is. What possible in-universe explanation could you have without appealing to ignorance, anyway?

Once again, "appealing to ignorance" is something done regularly in science and pretty much every other empirical field when you need to explain a series of data points. I don't know why you think misusing that fallacy is getting you anywhere.

Here's the question: whose argument better fits the facts? Mine has an idea that has neither been proven nor disproven; yours would make a prediction (the ship should fall apart) that is outright inaccurate.

Ambiguous assumption > wrong one.

Also Occam's razor doesn't support your point if you admit that your point doesn't fit the evidence and you need to ignore some and say it's the hand of God.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Or I could say that Nihulus being able to TK the Ravager but then needing help to defeat Traya is a plot hole so we should just dismiss the feat. That would be silly.
From where you are getting the idea that Darth Nihilus needed help to defeat Darth Traya? Darth Sion's presence in that confrontation proves nothing.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
From where you are getting the idea that Darth Nihilus needed help to defeat Darth Traya? Darth Sion's presence in that confrontation proves nothing. He wouldn't be there if Nihilus didn't need help.