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Both get their lightsabers for defensive purposes.

Start on senate pods in the Rotunda.

SoR Thor.

Good fight. Barsen'thor knocking down those huge doors whilst weakened and blocking the First Son's lightsaber attacks with TK before sending him flying into a rock wall with another telekinetic outburst is pretty damn good. I doubt they're better than Tyranus' cruiser/obelisk showings, however.

Yeah, the obelisks and the cruisers put Tyranus ahead IMHO.

Dooku.

Thor. Those "cruisers" aren't anything special. And 'Thor casually tossed a chunk of metal comparable to those obelisks a hundred feet while weakened, barely after becoming a Knight.

Thor is also more accustomed to fighting primarily with the Force.

Dooku mid diff

Better accolades, better feats

Dooku in good challange

Barsen'thor, who is criminally underrated.

Based on feats, 'Thor can probably take Dooku. I personally find the feats of the former more impressive. I'd say 'Thor could take a Force-only battle.

Dooku takes it.

Barsen'thor's Force prowess being highly underrated.

Dooku, in-general, is underrated. TOR is wanked beyond possible belief, though.

Originally posted by MythLord
Dooku, in-general, is underrated. TOR is wanked beyond possible belief, though.

I don't think Dooku is underrated around here. And there are probably more PT wankers on this forum, myself included. But going by feats, I just don't see Dooku edging him.

Originally posted by Petrus
I don't think Dooku is underrated around here. And there are probably more PT wankers on this forum, myself included. But going by feats, I just don't see Dooku edging him.

His obelisks and cruiser ragdolling on Korriban ftw.

Originally posted by Petrus
I don't think Dooku is underrated around here. And there are probably more PT wankers on this forum, myself included. But going by feats, I just don't see Dooku edging him.

Oh yeah, he is. And his feats(cruisers, the obelisks, the utter domination of Kenobi and Vos) > anything Thor has done.

'Thor, Prolly.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
His obelisks and cruiser ragdolling on Korriban ftw.

Korriban's a DS nexus, and they were hardly large cruisers.

Originally posted by MythLord
Oh yeah, he is. And his feats(cruisers, the obelisks, the utter domination of Kenobi and Vos) > anything Thor has done.

Nah, not really. Are you as familiar with 'Thor's feats?

The cruisers were described as monstrous by Anakin, and Korriban was a really weak nexus even as of PoD, and has presumably grown even weaker.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
The cruisers were described as monstrous by Anakin, and Korriban was a really weak nexus even as of PoD, and has presumably grown even weaker.

Proof that it's grown weaker? Still a nexus, though. Sure as hell doesn't seem weaker when Yoda visits. And Anakin's description of them is hardly enough to go by. In my opinion, 'Thor's large metal chunk was also monstrous.

Originally posted by Petrus
Korriban's a DS nexus, and they were hardly large cruisers.

A pathetic nexus even as of Bane's time, that has grown weaker according to Sidious.

And the cruisers were "massive, hulking warships" and "giant phantoms", so obviously they were large. They were also in one of the ancient Sith hangars, reserved for only the massive battle ships of any time prior to the Battle of Ruusan, IIRC. And these ships can range from 80-400 meters long. Obviously, it's closer to 80 meters, but still damn impressive.

Originally posted by Petrus
Nah, not really. Are you as familiar with 'Thor's feats?

Indeed. He/She and HoT are sub-Kenobi feggits

Originally posted by Petrus
Proof that it's grown weaker? Still a nexus, though. Sure as hell doesn't seem weaker when Yoda visits.

Yoda visiting sort of skirts the line between Legends and Canon, not sure which it qualifies as. We know from PoD that the Korriban nexus was faded due to the ancients having passed on or whatever, and there's no reason to think it would've bounced back in a thousand years.



Anakin is around lots of big ships...

@Mythlord, source for Sidious saying Korriban's nexus is weaker?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
@Mythlord, source for Sidious saying Korriban's nexus is weaker?

In Book of the Sith he mentions how the nexus grew weaker over millennia, or something along those lines.

Plus Bane really is an expert on nexuses, I'd trust him on that subject.

Originally posted by MythLord
A pathetic nexus even as of Bane's time, that has grown weaker according to Sidious.

And the cruisers were "massive, hulking warships" and "giant phantoms", so obviously they were large. They were also in one of the ancient Sith hangars, reserved for only the massive battle ships of any time prior to the Battle of Ruusan, IIRC. And these ships can range from 80-400 meters long. Obviously, it's closer to 80 meters, but still damn impressive.

Yeah, some of the objects Thor handles can also be described as 'large' or 'giant'. It doesn't really surpass Thor's large object-lifting by much, if at all.

And Yoda visits Moriband AKA Korriban and it's pretty noticeable how he is physically and mentally affected by the dark power that resides there, so it doesn't seem weak at all. Even if it's weak, as Sidious describes, it's still good enough to be considered a nexus and to amp Dooku to a certain point.





KEK.

Um yeah, I'm just going to point out that the phrases "monstrous" and "massive, hulking warships" never appear in the novel where Dooku throws the cruisers, and near as I can tell there's not even a mention of Anakin being impressed by the size.

In fact, this is the only time the word "war" is even used in that novel:
"Obi-Wan held up his lightsaber. From its glow they could see pictographs on the walls, images scrawled in red that had faded. Images of deeds done by the Sith. Wars. Massacres. Anakin turned his face away."

People are tacking on descriptions of the ships Dooku threw that weren't even in the novel and it's honestly kinda ridiculous.

Why you lyin' DMB?

He does call them "hulking" I believe.

The text describes them once as "hulking wrecks of ships" yes, but most of the claims being made about descriptions of the ships appears to be BS.

Hulking implies big mass...

It's certainly bigger than the blast door that Barsen broke through.

He also lifts a massive chunk of metal almost casually, while weakened, and not in his prime yet...

Yeah, any ship large enough for multiple people to fly in would qualify as having a big mass :/

I'm not saying that Dooku loses per se, but some claims people make about how the text describes the ships are blatantly untrue.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Barsen'thor, who is criminally underrated.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Hulking implies big mass...

It's certainly bigger than the blast door that Barsen broke through.
And how would you know?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Hulking implies big mass...

It's certainly bigger than the blast door that Barsen broke through.

So basically you lied about Anakin calling them monsterous and despite literally just yesterday ragging on Ziggy for estimating the scale of a feat now you're comfortable with saying these ships were "certainly" bigger than a two story building?

Seems legit.

Despite my efforts Neph has brought the mockery back on himself, it seems.

When I get back on my laptop, I'm tearing his pathetic brain apart.

I'm not allowed to call you out on bs anymore without you getting mad?

No, I'm just doing the same to you and your life. I can't elaborate on my phone right now.

Don't take things so personally, bro.

It should be pretty clear that Dooku isn't capable of hurling ships 80 meters in size, KEK.

Look at his other showings, and you tell me.

On the other hand, Thor is capable of producing an earthquake with the Force, whilst summoning whirlwinds at his multiple foes. So yeah, he's got Dooku in this particular area of combat.

Thor is also able to "distort reality and move massive* waves of energy, tearing apart enemies". I'm sure we've all seen the Taris blast door feat and her smashing through an impenetrable Rakatan Vault. Defensively she can block lightsabers with her force barrier and tanked an explosion that disintegrated a blast door directly to her face, while weakened, so good luck to Dooku's lightning. She's said to be "one of the greatest force users has ever seen" and to "embody true skill" and was more powerful than her master at age four than she was at age 15.

Thor's whole thing is Force battles, this is her element and she has the power and skill to win.


*two versions of this quote exist with "massive" in one of them.

Thor is greatly underrated around here, in terms of what he can accomplish with the Force in combats.

True. Even when weakened from the shielding technique and worn out from fighting through a ship and tanking an explosion, 'Thor still defeated an Ancient Sith Lord empowered by hundreds of Jedi Masters. I stand by the statement in my respect thread that it's one of the greatest combat feats of any Jedi.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Don't take things so personally, bro.

I think he's a beast and I'm not even a TOR wanker. Anyway, where's it said that he's one of the greatest ever?

'Thor also has the good ol' death nexus feat.

Originally posted by Petrus
I think he's a beast and I'm not even a TOR wanker. Anyway, where's it said that he's one of the greatest ever?

Shadow of Revan, Satele states "In truth, you are becoming one of the greatest force users our order has ever seen"

That includes Sith and eldritch beings

Whats the death nexus feat? You mean becoming a nexus after death?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Shadow of Revan, Satele states "In truth, you are becoming one of the greatest force users our order has ever seen"

Noice.

Originally posted by Nephthys


Whats the death nexus feat?

Her death/her tomb created a powerful nexus in the force that was going to be used to resurrect Ragnos.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Her death/her tomb created a powerful nexus in the force that was going to be used to resurrect Ragnos.

What? That's purty fvckin good. Source?

IM PRETTY SURE IT WAS IN THAT ONE GAME WITH TAVION AND RAGNOS OR WAS IT A BOOK IDR

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
IM PRETTY SURE IT WAS IN THAT ONE GAME WITH TAVION AND RAGNOS OR WAS IT A BOOK IDR

JA? WHEN'S IT SAID THOR WAS THE ONE?

WELL THEY SAID 3RD BARSENTHOR IIRC SO YEAH THATS 'THOR

WHAAT how did I miss this

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
It should be pretty clear that Dooku isn't capable of hurling ships 80 meters in size, KEK.

Look at his other showings, and you tell me.

Uh, Dooku's ragdolled Quinlan Vos, who, months later, goes on to ragdoll K'krukh, who goes on to call down 30m ships - with the author apparently later claiming that K'krukh "didn't use a great deal of the Force" - presumably in relation to effort.

There's also Witches of the Mist Savage Pushing approx. 20m shuttles off a cliff with moderate effort, and yet with maximum effort and whilst drawing on his own pain, he barely managed to lift two obelisks. Contrast that to Tyranus comfortably lifting sixteen obelisks with moderate effort.

Hurling 80m ships is not out of Dooku's paygrade by any stretch of the imagination.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
WELL THEY SAID 3RD BARSENTHOR IIRC SO YEAH THATS 'THOR

I'm pretty sure the Barsen'thor's tomb is only referenced in Force and Destiny. It wasn't mentioned in the actual game, or at least, there's nothing online to source that.

Originally posted by Petrus
Yeah, some of the objects Thor handles can also be described as 'large' or 'giant'. It doesn't really surpass Thor's large object-lifting by much, if at all.

I want proof those "giant objects" can rival ancient, hulking, giant phantom cruisers. Unless there's some unknown type of cruiser that's only 20 meters long, we can assume it's either the cruisers from the TotJ, TOR or Battle of Ruusan timeframe, each of which is sporting ships at least 80 meters or above in length.

This is the best speculative answer given, anything else would just be conjecture.

Originally posted by Petrus
And Yoda visits Moriband AKA Korriban and it's pretty noticeable how he is physically and mentally affected by the dark power that resides there, so it doesn't seem weak at all. Even if it's weak, as Sidious describes, it's still good enough to be considered a nexus and to amp Dooku to a certain point.

You're mixing Disney canon Morriband and EU Legends Korriban. And Yoda's only physically and mentally affected when the Sith spirits attack him, IIRC.
The amp itself would've been miniscule, and this is notwithstanding that the Count still isn't at peak power and is about to gain additional holocrons, including the Dark Holocron(canonically, the most powerful of all) among others, to enhance his power even further.

So his feat on Korriban is more than applicable here.

Apparently the Third Barsen'thor was mentioned in JA, according to Wookieepedia, which also claims it's a "retcon".

Does anyone have the quote on hand? And what on earth is the Barsen'thor's tomb doing on Korriban?

Korriban was a strong enough dark side nexus in the modern era that it's capable of hiding the presence of the entire One Sith organization with its miasma. Doesn't sound weak to me.

Nah, it gets more powerful after the Clone Wars/early ABY era. Up to then, it's at its weakest.

Krayt went through his Sith training during the Empire, I can't see it drastically changing in such a short time.

The most recent source is BoS, where, in a side scrawl (some time after RotS) in the Sorzus Syn section, Palpatine comments on how Korriban has lost its potency over the last 7000 years.

Well yes, its obviously not going to be as potent with millennia of inactivity and tomb plundering. It's still a powerful dark side nexus no matter which way you swing it.

Bane found the nexus relatively impotent by PoD, and Sidious confirms that it became weaker since. I can't imagine it being greater than any growth in power Tyranus would've underwent since his feat.

I don't believe Bane found it impotent, just faint and barely noticeable a nexus for a Dark Side to draw from.

I said relatively impotent, and a thousand years later, it still wasn't completely impotent. Just a very thin and pale shadow of its former self.

So like Vader?

Originally posted by MythLord
I want proof those "giant objects" can rival ancient, hulking, giant phantom cruisers. Unless there's some unknown type of cruiser that's only 20 meters long, we can assume it's either the cruisers from the TotJ, TOR or Battle of Ruusan timeframe, each of which is sporting ships at least 80 meters or above in length.

This is the best speculative answer given, anything else would just be conjecture.

Taken from Nova's RT at CV:

http://static7.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/12/124590/3909280-1478979360-M6VaQ.gif

That huge metal chunk is about 20 meters long and pretty massive. Thor lifts it up and throws it away almost casually, while being weakened and not even anywhere near his prime. This should serve as a reference of what a KotFE or end-game Thor could do.

http://static8.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/12/124590/4500220-0378116447-mGRd9.gif

Also a feat accomplished far from his prime and in a weakened state, he destroyed a 2 story building metallic door with little effort.

Again, if he's doing shit like this early in the game and while being weakened, what do you think a KotFE Thor could do with TK?

And this really isn't it. He has quite a few TK feats, either one-shotting Sith, one-shotting multiple opponents, one-shotting big beasts, creating earthquakes and whirlwinds simultaneously, tanking lightsaber slashes, or stunning Sith opponents. In terms of combative ability, he's demonstrated to be a more effective Force user than Dooku imho.




Well, the problem here is we have several sources saying contradicting statements. On one hand, Bane saying Korriban's power is weak, and Sidious backing that up later and on the other hand, we have Krayt training in Korriban and the Disciples of Ragnos utilizing it as a base. I doubt that Korriban's power increased in a span of 20 or so years, even less so with Palpatine's death. So it's really up there.

We don't know if that metal chunk was hollow, btw.

Yeah, it doesn't look like it is. Either way, that's not the whole argument.

Originally posted by Petrus
Taken from Nova's RT at CV:

That huge metal chunk is about 20 meters long and pretty massive. Thor lifts it up and throws it away almost casually, while being weakened and not even anywhere near his prime.This should serve as a reference of what a KotFE or end-game Thor could do.

A feat that Dooku's cruiser feat is vastly superior to. Season 3 Savage Opress and K'kruhk have done similar things; the former is canonically far inferior to Dooku as a Force Wielder and could only lift two obelisks while amped with strain, while Dooku could lift a dozen or more casually; the latter got dominated by Quinlan Vos who got dominated by Dooku.

Dooku's feats vastly outstrip that one.

Originally posted by Petrus
Also a feat accomplished far from his prime and in a weakened state, he destroyed a 2 story building metallic door with little effort.

Again, if he's doing shit like this early in the game and while being weakened, what do you think a KotFE Thor could do with TK?

Yeah, that feat still isn't "all that". She/he blasted through a large metal door, and damaged it. Kenobi disintegrating the blaster-fire-resistant Durge slightly after AotC, is a better feat, and a considerably more powerful Obi got ragdolled by the Count.

Originally posted by Petrus
And this really isn't it. He has quite a few TK feats, either one-shotting Sith, one-shotting multiple opponents, one-shotting big beasts, creating earthquakes and whirlwinds simultaneously, tanking lightsaber slashes, or stunning Sith opponents. In terms of combative ability, he's demonstrated to be a more effective Force user than Dooku imho.

Dooku damn near one-shotted Kenobi with a "whipcrack of power", which is better than one-shotting fodder Sith.
One-shotting beasts, also, isn't of any relevance. Creating earthquakes and whirlwinds shouldn't be outside of Dooku's capabilities, at all.
And an injured and emotionally hindered Kylo Ren and an exhausted Shaak Ti deflected lightsaber attacks, so that shouldn't be outside of Dooku's capabilities either.

Originally posted by Petrus
Well, the problem here is we have several sources saying contradicting statements. On one hand, Bane saying Korriban's power is weak, and Sidious backing that up later and on the other hand, we have Krayt training in Korriban and the Disciples of Ragnos utilizing it as a base. I doubt that Korriban's power increased in a span of 20 or so years, even less so with Palpatine's death. So it's really up there.

Them using Korriban as the base doesn't speak about power. Korriban is a core world of the Sith, a graveyard for their old masters and presents the legacy of the Sith ancestors. that has nothing to do with power.

Given both Bane and Sidious confirm the ineptness of the Nexus, just having bases on the planet, doesn't change the fact that the nexus is weak.

Originally posted by Nephthys
So basically you lied about Anakin calling them monsterous

You're having trouble with this, I see. In this context, monstrous and hulking are synonyms. Indeed, hulking might be better for Dooku because it specifically denotes a large mass, whereas monstrous could just mean that it looks scary. But thanks for brilliantly pointing out an irrelevant distinction in semantics.



Not sure what you're talking about, but people make reasonable estimates in real life all the time (.i.e. science, engineering, finance, pretty much everything). In this case, we know that

a) they are cruisers
b) they're hulking by the standards of a cruiser
c) this is Anakin, who is very privy to being around spaceships

If I recall correctly, most cruisers in SW range from 80 to 500 or so meters in length. Seeing as how these are large cruisers, they're probably on the upper end, .i.e. in the hundreds of meters. That's a perfectly logical deduction.

Even if they're only like fifty meters long, that's still more impressive than Barsen'Thor throwing a metal bar, which you've masturbated to in like seven different threads by now.

-----

So we now know that Dooku has a better environmental-manipulation based telekinetic feat than anything Thor has done. He's certainly got superior accolades, and from powerscaling he's ragdolled Obi Wan, which is above anyone Barsen'Thor has done the same to. Where, exactly, do we give Thor the advantage? The most I can tell is that s/he might be more acquainted with relying purely on the Force for combat given a relative lack of dueling proficiency. That's not enough to overcome Tyranus's advantages in power and mastery.

Originally posted by MythLord
A feat that Dooku's cruiser feat is vastly superior to. Season 3 Savage Opress and K'kruhk have done similar things; the former is canonically far inferior to Dooku as a Force Wielder and could only lift two obelisks while amped with strain, while Dooku could lift a dozen or more casually; the latter got dominated by Quinlan Vos who got dominated by Dooku.

Dooku's feats vastly outstrip that one.

This was a Savage Opress that only just started his Sith training, and him pushing the huge ship off the cliff on S5 proves he improved a lot since, just as Thor drastically would, too.




Yeah, I'm not actually arguing Thor is overall superior to Dooku. Dooku is the superior and more powerful combatant in general, but in regards to Force usage in battles, I put him slightly below Thor. And Kenobi's Durge feat really isn't that impressive. The only thing that happened is Kenobi was swallowed up by Durge, and from the inside he used TK to blow a single opponent away. Not anywhere near Thor's accomplishments.

You seem to be ignoring the fact that a lot of Thor's feats were accomplished in a weakened state and not anywhere near his prime. You tell me, if early in the game and not at full strength Thor can do impressive TK stuff like that, what do you think a KotFE Thor is capable of?




Regardless of who the opponents are, Force waving dozens of soldiers/Sith/beasts simultaneously is an impressive feat for anyone. When Savage does it, it's good. When Pong Krell does it against the 501st, it's good. When Dooku does it against Clones and Anakin, it's good. It's not different here.

Nevertheless, Dooku being capable or not of producing earthquakes with the Force whilst also producing multiple whirlwinds during fights is irrelevant, it's still hella impressive. And Dooku's never done anything even remotely similar to that, so we can't assume he has the ability to do so. Also, Dooku has never directly tanked a saber slash with TK or barriers. As far as we know, he can't.




Aren't the Sith Spirits and entities partially the reason why Korriban is a powerful dark side planet? To be honest, I'm not sure, but if this is true and then considering Ragnos' tomb is there, as well as his spirit and presumably he isn't the only one, Korriban is at the very least good enough to amp someone who's drawing on the power of darkness.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Uh, Dooku's ragdolled Quinlan Vos, who, months later, goes on to ragdoll K'krukh, who goes on to call down 30m ships - with the author apparently later claiming that K'krukh "didn't use a great deal of the Force" - presumably in relation to effort.
He claims K'kruhk found a smarter way to bring it down and the pilot screams "it's the controls"... I think it's pretty clearcut personally.

And that takes place years after Vos ragdolled him so I don't think it's reverse applicable either way.

So far, nobody on Thor's side has actually produced a feat on par with his cruiser tossing, or a powerscale on par with his ragdolling Obi Wan, but have instead just said that he did his when he was young and would've grown stronger by an unknown amount. That's not enough.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
So far, nobody on Thor's side has actually produced a feat on par with his cruiser tossing, or a powerscale on par with his ragdolling Obi Wan, but have instead just said that he did his when he was young and would've grown stronger by an unknown amount. That's not enough.

How can you not be impressed by his Force earthquake whilst creating multiple whirlwinds feat, considering Dooku's never done something similar?

Also, how can you not be impressed by him tanking several saber blows with TK while weakened and then actually TKing the possessed Master several meters back against the wall? That's pretty up there with ragdolling an Obi-Wan who's pretty much established as inferior to Thor in terms of Force abilities.

I mean, at least one of those has to be good for you.

And it's not far-fetched at all to assume that considering some of his good feats were done not near his prime and weakened, a full-power prime Thor would be a match for someone like Dooku in terms of Force power.

Originally posted by Petrus
How can you not be impressed by his Force earthquake whilst creating multiple whirlwinds feat, considering Dooku's never done something similar?

So it's not as much raw power as flinging cruisers unless if you can show me how potent this earthquake was, and it's not like it's tactically useful against a single enemy, so what does it prove?



Tanking saber blows with TK? That's just moving back someone's arm. And flinging a featless master means nothing.



Do you seriously think that compares to ragdolling Obi Wan or tossing cruisers?



It's possible, but you haven't presented such a case.

You're asking us to prove how potent Thor's feats are while unable to prove the size of those 'cruisers'.

I already responded to that cancer in the last page.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
He claims K'kruhk found a smarter way to bring it down and the pilot screams "it's the controls"... I think it's pretty clearcut personally.

And that takes place years after Vos ragdolled him so I don't think it's reverse applicable either way.



Dooku supporters reaching per usual.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
So it's not as much raw power as flinging cruisers unless if you can show me how potent this earthquake was, and it's not like it's tactically useful against a single enemy, so what does it prove?

Tactically useful? Well, considering he used the earthquake in a battle to unbalance enemy troops, it fulfills its purpose. Also, he did this while simultaneously producing several whirlwinds with the Force, targeting opponents. So yeah, it's both impressive and tactically useful.




lol, if that's 'just moving back someone's arm' and it's as easy as you make it sound, why doesn't every single Force-user do it? He also put up barriers to tank it, not just TK. Pretty powerful barrier it must be to help tank multiple saber blows.
And it's not so much the fact that he did this to a featless Master, is that he did all this while visibly injured and limited.



Considering Obi-Wan isn't that impressive a Force-user, and considering Dooku is way above in that regard, yeah, I do. TKing 80 meter long cruisers is impressive, and certainly not far from full-powered peak Thor's pay-grade, when you consider what he's done.




It's logical to assume Thor would drastically improve from a weakened, not peak version of himself, and since he's tossing around 20, 25 meter metal chunks casually and obliterating 2 story high impenetrable metallic doors with ease before his prime, he should be capable of tossing around massive objects like small cruisers or big ships.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
He claims K'kruhk found a smarter way to bring it down and the pilot screams "it's the controls"... I think it's pretty clearcut personally.

And that takes place years after Vos ragdolled him so I don't think it's reverse applicable either way.

The author's claim is ambiguous. He says Jedi like K'kruhk are "clever" and will find intelligent ways to use the Force.

The pilot screaming "It's the controls!" could be because the controls aren't responding.

The hand gestures K'kruhk has of pulling his hands up into the sky, then clenching his fists intensly then pulling slamming his hands down. That would only make sense if K'kruhk is legitimately pulling it down, because messing with controls would take far less effort.

And it takes place 2 years aftewards, and K'kruhk shouldn't have improved by any vast margin. Even being generous and saying he improved twice fold, Vos would still be considerably his superior. Of course, this is hardly the only comparison I can draw from for Dooku being capable of casually manipulating ships.


EDIT: Also, Stadley isn't even the writer. He invented K'kruhk, but Fire Carrier was written by Mick Harrison, so Stradley has no say in the matter.

@Petrus I'll respond later.

K.

Originally posted by MythLord
The author's claim is ambiguous. He says Jedi like K'kruhk are "clever" and will find intelligent ways to use the Force.

The pilot screaming "It's the controls!" could be because the controls aren't responding.

The hand gestures K'kruhk has of pulling his hands up into the sky, then clenching his fists intensly then pulling slamming his hands down. That would only make sense if K'kruhk is legitimately pulling it down, because messing with controls would take far less effort.

And it takes place 2 years aftewards, and K'kruhk shouldn't have improved by any vast margin. Even being generous and saying he improved twice fold, Vos would still be considerably his superior. Of course, this is hardly the only comparison I can draw from for Dooku being capable of casually manipulating ships.


EDIT: Also, Stadley isn't even the writer. He invented K'kruhk, but Fire Carrier was written by Mick Harrison, so Stradley has no say in the matter.

@Petrus I'll respond later.

That... isn't ambiguous. Finding clever ways to use the Force =/= smashing shit up.

.... No it couldn't.

Not necessarily. He puts his hands up as he extends his will towards the ship, closes his fists when he grabs control over the controls and slams them down as he forces the controls into freefall.

Uh, pretty sure many people improved dramatically in 2 years, like in the clones wars and shit.

Just as general advice to both sides to keep the thread from being bogged down too much, maybe focus on other abilities besides TK? Dooku has lightning, Thor has barriers, healing, etc.

Thus far, this thread is interesting, though I've noticed a few cases both sides can make that no-one has touched on due to the intense focus on this one cruiser feat.

Originally posted by MythLord
Yeah, that feat still isn't "all that". She/he blasted through a large metal door, and damaged it. Kenobi disintegrating the blaster-fire-resistant Durge slightly after AotC, is a better feat, and a considerably more powerful Obi got ragdolled by the Count.

Lolwut? No way is that even in the same ballpark. You don't think a massive blast door designed to contain explosions is blaster resistant? It's obviously vastly superior as a feat, done barely a Knight, while weakened.

Durge is "blaster resistant" because he regenerates and is hard to kill normally. But Gen'Dai aren't more durable than a meter-thick massive slab of metal. A Smuggler armed with pistols and grenades can kill them, even when they have the Force.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
You're having trouble with this, I see. In this context, monstrous and hulking are synonyms. Indeed, hulking might be better for Dooku because it specifically denotes a large mass, whereas monstrous could just mean that it looks scary. But thanks for brilliantly pointing out an irrelevant distinction in semantics.

Uh, I'm pretty sure you were the one having trouble with this.

But I'll back off so I don't rustle your jimmies.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Not sure what you're talking about, but people make reasonable estimates in real life all the time (.i.e. science, engineering, finance, pretty much everything). In this case, we know that

a) they are cruisers
b) they're hulking by the standards of a cruiser
c) this is Anakin, who is very privy to being around spaceships

If I recall correctly, most cruisers in SW range from 80 to 500 or so meters in length. Seeing as how these are large cruisers, they're probably on the upper end, .i.e. in the hundreds of meters. That's a perfectly logical deduction.

Even if they're only like fifty meters long, that's still more impressive than Barsen'Thor throwing a metal bar, which you've masturbated to in like seven different threads by now.

a) We don't know that they're actually cruisers since Dmb proved that the author uses the term cruisers interchangeably with other ships. We have no idea how big they were and an analysis of the descriptions suggests they aren't that big at all.
b) Lmao. Thats not how descriptions work.
c) Unfortunately for you, the author apparently isn't.

That's a ridiculous estimation. These ships were small enough that they could be simply dodged or ducked under and one has a wing that's low enough to the ground and small enough to threaten to cut them in half. These aren't actual cruisers, they're just miscellaneous ships.

Thor did that at the start of her career and while Dooku was empowered by the nexus, Thor was weakened from performing the shielding technique. That the feats are comparable at all is pretty bad for Dooku, ngl.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
So we now know that Dooku has a better environmental-manipulation based telekinetic feat than anything Thor has done. He's certainly got superior accolades, and from powerscaling he's ragdolled Obi Wan, which is above anyone Barsen'Thor has done the same to. Where, exactly, do we give Thor the advantage? The most I can tell is that s/he might be more acquainted with relying purely on the Force for combat given a relative lack of dueling proficiency. That's not enough to overcome Tyranus's advantages in power and mastery.

We know nothing of the sort, the cruiser feat is impressive but ultimately far feebler than your estimations and performed in better conditions than Thor's feats. And 'Thor being said to be one of the greatest force users the Order had ever seen is at least as good as anything Dooku got in terms of accolades imo.

Lol, Obi-Wan. As if the Barsen'thor wouldn't make Kenobi her b*tch with TK.

Dooku won't threaten 'Thor with the Force when she's powerful enough to tank blasts that disintegrate blast doors and lightsabers and is a supremely skilled combatant with the Force. Like Vixas says, Thor also has high-level healing, capable of healing someone from the brink of death to full health in seconds. Ultimately, Thor far from her prime and vastly weakened was still able to slaughter her way through a capital ship (remember that she fights with the Force, which is pretty energy-intensive) and defeat a Sith Lord empowered by hundreds of Jedi Masters. She's faced far greater odds than she is here and come out on top.

Originally posted by Petrus
This was a Savage Opress that only just started his Sith training, and him pushing the huge ship off the cliff on S5 proves he improved a lot since, just as Thor drastically would, too.

Um, Savage did that feat in Season 3, right before he and Asajj fought Dooku, actually. And still, Dooku was far superior to Savage individually:



And superior to both Asajj and Savage collectively:




So, my comparison still stands. And you also haven't countered my K'kruhk comparison.

Originally posted by Petrus
Yeah, I'm not actually arguing Thor is overall superior to Dooku. Dooku is the superior and more powerful combatant in general, but in regards to Force usage in battles, I put him slightly below Thor.

Dooku's usage of the Force in battles should also be more refined than 'Thor's. Barsen seems to just overpower ones defenses, Dooku can, on the other hand, exploit defensive lapses and openings and take advantage of that. Even his one-handed, casual Force Push managed to send back a defending Anakin and Obi-Wan.


Originally posted by Petrus
And Kenobi's Durge feat really isn't that impressive. The only thing that happened is Kenobi was swallowed up by Durge, and from the inside he used TK to blow a single opponent away. Not anywhere near Thor's accomplishments.

Durge's durability is insane; he's tanked being bombarded by dozens of mines, unharmed, and has tanked close-range grenade explosions unharmed. Yet, somewhat-post AotC Kenobi disintegrates him. It very much rivals most, if not all, of Thor's achievements.


Originally posted by Petrus
You seem to be ignoring the fact that a lot of Thor's feats were accomplished in a weakened state and not anywhere near his prime. You tell me, if early in the game and not at full strength Thor can do impressive TK stuff like that, what do you think a KotFE Thor is capable of?

And all of Dooku's feats are done out of amusement, easily, and without any possible limit established on his powers, other than he's just not Anakin, or Yoda, or Sidious. Heck, a "negligent whipcrack of power" is enough for him to dispatch Kenobi for a long time, he just sorta lifts up his hands and the obelisks start flying and he was amused when he threw around the cruisers on Korriban, which the novel later says he does easily.

Originally posted by Petrus
Regardless of who the opponents are, Force waving dozens of soldiers/Sith/beasts simultaneously is an impressive feat for anyone. When Savage does it, it's good. When Pong Krell does it against the 501st, it's good. When Dooku does it against Clones and Anakin, it's good. It's not different here.

I legitimately don't consider any of those feats impressive. Any average Force user can send back half a dozen people back with a Force Push. More advanced can do dozens, but that still isn't super-special-awesome.

Originally posted by Petrus
Nevertheless, Dooku being capable or not of producing earthquakes with the Force whilst also producing multiple whirlwinds during fights is irrelevant, it's still hella impressive. And Dooku's never done anything even remotely similar to that, so we can't assume he has the ability to do so. Also, Dooku has never directly tanked a saber slash with TK or barriers. As far as we know, he can't.

You're essentially using an appeal to ignorance here, which is a logical fallacy. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Dooku is a conservative man, he's never used extreme demonstrations of power and is much more precise and on-point. Therefore, just because he didn't use Force Whirlwind and create low-key earthquakes doesn't mean he couldn't. Force users far inferior to him have collapsed cave ceilings, which rivals creating low-key earthquakes, and Force Whirlwind is a relatively basic ability.

Regarding blocking lightsabers; like I said -- vastly inferior combatants(an exhausted Shaak Ti, mentally/physically damaged Kylo Ren) have done so, so why the Count couldn't is beyond me?

Originally posted by Petrus
Aren't the Sith Spirits and entities partially the reason why Korriban is a powerful dark side planet? To be honest, I'm not sure, but if this is true and then considering Ragnos' tomb is there, as well as his spirit and presumably he isn't the only one, Korriban is at the very least good enough to amp someone who's drawing on the power of darkness.

Korriban is a Sith World filled with it's artifacts and spirits, deep in the graves, thus it should be powerful because of the spirits -- yes. However, that power is still miniscule. And sure, Dooku can draw on the darkness and amplify himself, but any small amp he might've recieved is balanced out by the fact that he would later gain several holocrons from Sidious and retrieve the Dark Holocron, alongside the holocron of Andeddu, which are noted as giving the Count power:

Just saying, but Dooku got hold of the Dark Holocron before that, not after. It specifically mentions in that last quote that it was "in preparation for his transformation into Darth Tyranus".

Originally posted by SunRazer
Just saying, but Dooku got hold of the Dark Holocron before that, not after. It specifically mentions in that last quote that it was "in preparation for his transformation into Darth Tyranus".

How did I not notice that? Meh, that's hardly the only knowledge the Count had. I believe that, after AotC, Sidious gave him other holoprojectors, plus he rediscovered Andeddu's holocron.

I'd like to see some quotes on Dooku's knowledge/power growth specifically since AotC. Everybody knows he grew more powerful than as a Jedi.

I'm in agreement with SunRazer tbh. ^

I was under the impression he recieved most of the holocrons he had after AotC. mmm. Though one who has a Force potential engimatic to Yoda should logically improve over a 4 year time period.

Originally posted by Nephthys

Uh, I'm pretty sure you were the one having trouble with this.

But I'll back off so I don't rustle your jimmies.



Nice argument. Maybe next time you should try trimming it down to a simple "no", maximize that efficiency.



If the author has a broad definition of cruiser, a hulking cruiser is going to be one of the cruisers on the bigger end of that range.



Um, yes, it is. If it's a hulking X, then it's an X that's hulking. Please actually explain how this isn't what descriptions work, because it seems like you're pulling the classic "that's not how it works but I won't explain why and act mysterious instead" bluffing tactic.



Pretty sure it's third person limited.



Um, yeah? You can duck under something that's really big, lol.



How "tall" would a 100 meter long ship be - 15 meters? So it's hardly implausible that it would reach down to hit two pretty tall humans, and if they're moving fast enough they could certainly cut them in half.



Except that it's pretty obvious that they're not, seeing as how that piece of metal is significantly smaller than any reasonable definition of a hulking cruiser, and even smaller than your definition.



No, because Dooku was the greatest student Yoda saw at the peak of the Order. That's more impressive.



Nice assumption. Who has she ragdolled that is beyond Obi Wan?



.i.e. below padawan Anakin, who can manipulate dreadnaughts.



Her one advantage may be that she's more used to fighting just with the Force because she's relatively bad with a saber, but that doesn't mean much when Dooku gave lectures in telekinesis and has dominated Obi Wan, Ventress, Vos, etc. with ease.



Good for her. To my knowledge, she's never done this with herself - although Dooku has rejuvenated his stamina within seconds. He's also cast elaborate illusions, studied various sith holocrons, learned under both Yoda and Sidious's tutelage, etc.



None of that puts her above Dooku. Be realistic here; do you think beating a bunch of people on a capital ship puts her above Dooku ragdolling Obi Wan? Nah. Do you think throwing a big piece of metal puts her above tossing around cruisers? Nah. The most you have to say is that she did these things before her prime, but honestly, I don't see any case for how she's better even in it.

Originally posted by Petrus
Tactically useful? Well, considering he used the earthquake in a battle to unbalance enemy troops, it fulfills its purpose. Also, he did this while simultaneously producing several whirlwinds with the Force, targeting opponents. So yeah, it's both impressive and tactically useful.


That's not very tactically useful against a single powerful Force user, and it's not as impressive as tossing cruisers, so it doesn't help her case.



It's more efficient to just block it? Lol. In either case it just establishes that she was very strong in TK relative to her opponent. Unless if said master has actual feats, it doesn't tell us much. Dooku didn't block Obi Wan's lightsaber with the Force - he lifted him up and flung him across the room.



Seeing as how it's just stopping the blow, again, not really. Kylo Ren actually tanking them with his hands is impressive, for instance.



...ok? Are you telling me that a "visibly injured" Dooku wouldn't beat a random Jedi Master? Or that Obi Wan wouldn't? Or that TPM Obi Wan wouldn't?



Lol, people mainly say that precisely because Dooku ragdolled him, but Obi Wan is still one of the most powerful Jedi of all time, he matched Vader telekinesis, he turned back Durge's needle spam, he's busted through massive durasteel walls, he's used the Force to guide himself through blocking fire from hundreds of battle droids at once, etc. Obi Wan is not very powerful relative to, say, Yoda, but he's certainly more powerful than that random Master 'Thor dominated.



I would need to see more evidence. I don't think it's clear that the time between Act I and Act III automatically means you can go from throwing a bus sized object to throwing war cruiser sized objects.



I would not be so sure, and note that Dooku still has the advantages of lightning, illusions, dun moch, superior Force augmentation for defense and mobility, more years of experience, the works of sith holocrons, etc.

If you actually checked the feat Ellimit, you'd see that Thor didn't move the First Son's arm back, she used a barrier/force bubble. This isn't in question, this is what happened. You see the bubble.

But of course, being far enough above the First Son to move his arms is actually the better feat, lol. This is the guy who was hiding hundreds of Emperor's Children from the Jedi's senses under their noses and other Children thought his power was beyond contemplation.

Kylo Ren > Galen Marek confirmed.

Ren blocking lightsaber attacks is his best feat by far tbh. Not that we've seen enough from him to fairly judge his abilities imo.

I mean, I'm not saying that Barsen'Thor isn't an impressive Force user, but impressive is relative - using a barrier to deflect lightsaber blows doesn't put her above someone who can toss around cruisers, or heck even someone who can ragdoll Obi Wan and Vos.

Not by itself, obviously, but it is another pip in her cap. Especially when the person attacking her, who she then owned with TK, was the First Son. Who's ridiculously powerful, obviously moreso than Kenobi or Vos. The cutting power of a lightsaber is immense, as I'm sure you're aware. Combined with her other defensive feats, it'll be tough for Dooku to get through to her.

A lot hinges on the cruiser feat. If I'm right about my interpretation then I'm putting Dooku = KotOR Revan. Before I had him below Darth Revan and around equal to Naga Sadow.

Myth, Dooku using the Dark Holocron has been retconned ever since The Essential Guide to the Force, they are not one in the same.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Myth, Dooku using the Dark Holocron has been retconned ever since The Essential Guide to the Force, they are not one in the same.

Huh, fair enough.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I'd like to see some quotes on Dooku's knowledge/power growth specifically since AotC. Everybody knows he grew more powerful than as a Jedi.

Wasn't it said that he grew more powerful from Anddedu's holocron?

Where?

Fact File, I believe... mmm

I'd like a quote.

I think I posted it on the other page, with holocrons giving Dooku power and whatnot.

Originally posted by Petrus
Taken from Nova's RT at CV:

http://static7.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/12/124590/3909280-1478979360-M6VaQ.gif

That huge metal chunk is about 20 meters long and pretty massive. Thor lifts it up and throws it away almost casually, while being weakened and not even anywhere near his prime. This should serve as a reference of what a KotFE or end-game Thor could do.

So I'm at this part in the game atm, and it's nowhere near ****ing 20m:

http://puu.sh/q3DMw/475990326a.jpg

It's a lot smaller than the ship Savage TK'd:

http://puu.sh/q3DQB/b0d7d09277.jpg

It looks to be about 15ish, not counting the bit at the end.

Still, 'Thor lifted it and tossed it easily, while weakened. Also it's a solid mass of metal and ships are made intentionally light-weight.

lel, 9 meter tops.

You know, even saying Barsen'Thor is two meters tall, that thing would still only be 10 meters. Since she/he's probably less, then yeah I'd wager 8.

I used the smallest body too.

males with female avatars are freaks

bump

I might give the Barsen'thor the win, in fact. I'm raising the TOR protags. Although one could easily give Dooku the win on a feat-for-feat basis.

Dooku

Barsen'thor wins.

Tyranus.

Dooku

Originally posted by SunRazer
I might give the Barsen'thor the win, in fact. I'm raising the TOR protags.

Why?

Because they deserve to be

On what grounds they deserve to be Dooku+? More importantly on what ground do you think they are Dooku+?

Originally posted by SunRazer
Because they deserve to be
And? Caedus deserves to be >Plagueis. Is he? No.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Caedus deserves to be >Plagueis.

lel

@Zoltan - I said the Barsen'thor might win (although reconsidering, probably not), not that he will. I'm not going to discard someone I've wanked for so long so quickly

And my grounds for this were mostly the army quote. Although the door feat on Taris is quite good considering the circumstances.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
And? Caedus deserves to be >Plagueis.

That's disgusting.

Army quote?

Originally posted by SunRazer
That's disgusting.
Purely based as character and concept? Yes he deserves it. Is he? Lol, no.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Army quote?

Posted it on the last page.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Purely based as character and concept? Yes he deserves it.

Again, that's disgusting.

Originally posted by SunRazer

Again, that's disgusting.
Why? Sure, Plagueis>Caedus, tbh, as character, but over NJO Jacen

Originally posted by SunRazer
Posted it on the last page.

Can't find it.

Sorry, posted it in the HoT vs Nyriss thread. Last page.

Too vague, and on that ground isn't beyond even Kenobi who is capable well excess of this:

Anakin saw the droids, hampered by their own debris, and his eyes went to the blazing carcass of the AT-TE.

Just do it.

Adrenaline fueled him. He sent the wreckage skidding across the ground with a massive Force push. The kinetic force of the impact and the sheet of flame released when it slammed into the droid ranks had the effect of a bomb going off. Then another explosion-the walker's magazine, probably-sent a fireball soaring into the air.
--The Clone Wars

Savage and Maul pulled of army busting feat as well, and so did Raxus Prime Galen who is comparable to Shaak yet you underrate her

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Too vague, and on that ground isn't beyond even Kenobi who is capable well excess of this:

Anakin saw the droids, hampered by their own debris, and his eyes went to the blazing carcass of the AT-TE.

Just do it.

Adrenaline fueled him. He sent the wreckage skidding across the ground with a massive Force push. The kinetic force of the impact and the sheet of flame released when it slammed into the droid ranks had the effect of a bomb going off. Then another explosion-the walker's magazine, probably-sent a fireball soaring into the air.
--The Clone Wars

Savage and Maul pulled of army busting feat as well, and so did Raxus Prime Galen who is comparable to Shaak yet you underrate her

How many droids for Anakin? Not that he was destroying them outright with TK

So Barsen'thor > Maul + Savage?

No, you overrate.

Originally posted by SunRazer
How many droids for Anakin? Not that he was destroying them outright with TK

An army. And the 'thor quote doesn't specify how she deals with an army so you can't apply that requirement on Anakin.

Originally posted by SunRazer
So Barsen'thor > Maul + Savage?

Equal as they are all army busters

Originally posted by SunRazer
No, you overrate.

So putting 'thor on Dooku tier based on a vague army busting quote is okay, but putting Shaak on Kenobi tier based on her showings against an actual army buster is overrating?

1. It means he can do it under all circumstances, pheggot.

2. No, Maul and Savage just blew them off. They didn't destroy

3. Yes

Dooku.

The Sovereign of Serenno.

(A cool name for some sith Dooku's novel, let's admit)